What is the general consensus on the rapture here?

[Edward]

The rapture, as was being discussed, is a specific idea relating to all believers being removed from the earth prior to judgment. This idea comes from 1 Thess 4:17. None of the passages you provided support that idea, it has to be read into those passages first.

Heaven “comes” to earth in Revelation, so for believers to be removed makes little sense. Jesus will come to judge, at which point unbelievers will be thrown into Hell and believers will remain with Christ in his kingdom, and so spend eternity.

It doesn't make sense to you because you have to read the entirety of scriptures for all relevant details.

There's 7 different raptures which occur in the Bible and after each one where someone was raptured, came judgement.

The Bride of Christ is raptured up to attend the Marriage supper of the lamb, while at the same time earth is going through the great tribulation. Then the 2nd coming of Christ and He returns and all saints come with Him.

 

[Golgotha]

But it is on you to show that you have understood the text correctly and that it applies to the discussion. Your comments do not show this to be the case.

Like the parables, wisdom has to come from the Lord.

I'll see what He is leading me to share but it is not on me if He is not building the house or peradventuring to cause the increase on either side in our discussion.

There can be no striving in our discussion on either part of us, brother. But that is not to say that He will not do it eventually.

 

[Golgotha]

I should point out that your comments support my point. You are arguing to a very different idea of "rapture" than what is popularly understood and what is being discussed in this thread. They all seem to fall under the categories of judgement and the coming of the kingdom of God/the second coming of Jesus, not the rapture.

But it happens at the rapture for why the rapture, aka God judging His House first, is happening before the great tribulation.

Consider this; if the church is supposed to excommunicate an unrepentant brother, you really believe every believer in the latter days will be found abiding in Him & thus ready to go when He comes as the Bridegroom thus no danger of excommunication by God?

If all believers are not abiding in Him to have proper church fellowship & to eat communion with or other meals today, why would you think it will be that way at the rapture regardless of when you think it will be for why Jesus says to be ready or else?

So sharing scripture for what that rapture event is really all about, is why God judging His House is happening before the great tribulation for why that church is warned it will be cast into, for not being ready per Revelation 2:18-25 thus not being raptured.

Luke 12:40-49 & John 15:1-8 & even Paul says he can become a castaway and not just lose the rewards of crowns which inferring the rapture event per 1 Corinthians 9:24-27

Now I had applied those scripture to God's judging His House at the rapture event for why there is an excommunication or that casting away of those for not being ready.

Now if you want to explain what those references are really all about, be my guest. but until you do, the Lord is not ministering yet in the progress of our discussion like iron sharpening iron. On my part, there are scripture talking about the rapture event and not just the taking away part but what actually is to happen then part.

If you cannot see it yet, then maybe the Lord will lead you to explain what those scripture references is all about or maybe He will not because I have it right, thanks to Him.

 

[Golgotha]

Free

Here is another truth in scripture for why there are O.T. saints living in that City with N.T. disciples.

Hebrews 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. 14 For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country. 15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned. 16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

This will be realized at the rapture event for why Jesus is warning His church here for when the O.T. saints & the ready N.T. saints will be sitting down at the Marriage supper table in Heaven while those that have gone astray are cast out.

Luke 13:24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. 25 When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are: 26 Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets. 27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.

28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out. 29 And they shall come from the east, and from the west, and from the north, and from the south, and shall sit down in the kingdom of God. 30 And, behold, there are last which shall be first, and there are first which shall be last.

So unless you can explain what Jesus is talking about here, I leave the onus to God to help you see the truth regarding this issue in His words.

 

[JLB]

I agree, but the post I was replying to implied that 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16 was the only reference in regards to that rapture event. So more scripture came into play for why the rapture is an event for when God will judge His House first before the great tribulation comes. It is why Jesus was warning saved believers to be ready or else.

Again the resurrection occurs first then afterward the rapture.

These occur as one event at His coming.

For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 1 Thessalinians 4:15


Why would you believe the Second Coming is before the Tribulation?


“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Matthew 24:29-31




You do understand that the coming of the Lord refers to the Second Coming of Christ, right?




JLB

 

[Golgotha]

Again the resurrection occurs first then afterward the rapture.

These occur as one event at His coming.

For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 1 Thessalinians 4:15

There are two coming of the Lord that has to be discerned by the context that phrase is being used in scripture.

There is Jesus coming as appearing as the Bridegroom to collect the abiding bride of Christ at the rapture event, leaving behind those unrepentant saints & former believers for not being ready nor willing to go. That is why that rapture is God judging His House first before He comes back as the King of kings to judge the world when afterwards, He shall establish His reign on a new heaven and a new earth.

Why would you believe the Second Coming is before the Tribulation?


“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Matthew 24:29-31

You do understand that the coming of the Lord refers to the Second Coming of Christ, right?


JLB

There is a tribulation as those are the days we are living in when false prophets cause many saved believers to fall away from the faith.

Matthew 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. 24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. 25 Behold, I have told you before. 26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. 27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together. 29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

So slain in the spirit, the holy laughter movement, Pensacola Outpouring, Toronto's Blessings and even Ernest Angeley's Healing Crusade where he announces the Holy Spirit falling on already saved believers in bringing out healings & casting out devils & other "wonderful works in His name" but to the glory of himself & that healing crusade where saved believers lose self control & fall in these phenomenon.

This is the tribulation we are living in now as they promote that phenomenon by hyping he Spirit of Christ is moving here or there to get saved believers to come when Jesus warned us not to go there at all in Matthew 24:23-26 because the elect can be deceived because Jesus Christ dwells in us ( 2 Corinthians 13:5 & Matthew 28:20 ) as our bodies are the temple of the Holy Spirit now ( 1 Corinthians 6:19-20 ) so there is no going to any place to get closer to God at.

Then there is great tribulation which halfway thru it is wen that son of perdition will be revealed.

Matthew 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand 16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: 17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: 18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. 19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! 20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: 21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

So a limited 7 year period for why halfway through it, the son of perdition will be revealed for why that is the great tribulation for the elect that are the 144,000 Jews that believe in Jesus Christ.

There is tribulation which involves the falling away from the faith and then there is great tribulation.

I separated Matthew 24:14 to refer to Revelation 14:1-8 where Revelation 14:1-5 speaks of who makes up His personal choir in Heaven that was redeemed from the living among the earth hence raptured, ( not that they were the only ones raptured but out of those raptured, who made up His personal choir or entourage ) and the first of the three angels herald the gospel everywhere after the rapture BEFORE the end comes like Matthew 24:14 says as herald by the second angel of the fall of Babylon which is in detail in Revelation 18:1-24 as you will note dead saints in there..

Then the 3rd angel warns every one about the lake of fire as the consequence for taking the mark of the beast ( Revelation 14:9-11 ) so everyone will know the gospel and everyone will know the consequence for taking the mark to buy & sell in order to survive in the NWO.

That great tribulation is that hour of temptation that shall try all remaining on the earth. That is the promise given to the church at Philadelphia for holding fast to avoid because they will not be on earth to even be tempted. Revelation 3:7-11

And yet the church at Thyatira was warned that if they do not repent, they will be cast into the bed of the great tribulation where they will be judged with death due to their works ( Revelation 2:18-25 ) which defiled the temple of God even though their spirits are still saved ( 1 Corinthians 3:10-17 ), but waiting under the altar ( Revelation 6:9-11 ) for their resurrection after the great tribulation ( Revelation 7:9-17 & Revelation 20:1-6 ).

1 Corinthians 15: 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

So there are 2 resurrections of the saints that we are talking about here as one will happen before the great tribulation as Christ's the firstfruits at the rapture event meeting the Lord in the air and then another resurrection at Christ His coming as the King of kings when the world's armies is defeated and Satan is in the pit for a 1000 years in Revelation 20:1-6. "First resurrection" is explained in verse 5 as not the actual first resurrection but that, that resurrection was to happen "first" before the rest of the dead are resurrected at the Great White Throne judgment.

So Biblically, the firstfruits of the resurrection is the rapture before the great tribulation event when Christ comes as the Bridegroom to receive those to the Marriage Supper in Heaven. Then they that be Christ's at His coming is when He does battle as the King of kings in defeating the world's armies marching onto Jerusalem, setting His feet on the Mount of Olives in coming back with the pre great trib. raptured saints in Zechariah 14:1-5 for when after defeating them with Satan in the pit for a thousand years, is when He is on earth for that resurrection of those left behind saints & those saints that went through the great tribulation. Revelation 20:1-6

 

[JLB]

There are two coming of the Lord that has to be discerned by the context that phrase is being used in scripture.

There is only one coming of the Lord Jesus Christ, the Second Coming, when He returns to gather His people together on the last Day, by the resurrection and rapture.


And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment, so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation. Hebrews 9:27-28




“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Matthew 24:29-31



For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words. But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. 1 Thessalonians 4:15-5:3



At the coming of the Lord, we see these three major things will happen:


In order —


The Resurrection of the dead in Christ.
The Rapture
The destruction of the wicked, including the antichrist.


And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 2 Thessalonians 2:8








JLB

 

[Free]

But it happens at the rapture for why the rapture, aka God judging His House first, is happening before the great tribulation.

Thank you for confirming my point. You have a different idea of what the rapture is than what most believers think it is, which is why your verses have no bearing on the discussion. 1 Thess 4:17 remains the only verse that supposedly supports the popular idea of the rapture, which is only that all believers will be removed from the earth.

 

[Golgotha]

There is only one coming of the Lord Jesus Christ, the Second Coming, when He returns to gather His people together on the last Day, by the resurrection and rapture.


And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment, so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation. Hebrews 9:27-28




“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Matthew 24:29-31



For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words. But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. 1 Thessalonians 4:15-5:3



At the coming of the Lord, we see these three major things will happen:


In order —


The Resurrection of the dead in Christ.
The Rapture
The destruction of the wicked, including the antichrist.


And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 2 Thessalonians 2:8








JLB

Best to explain how I am misapplying the scripture I have referenced wrong for how I am applying the scripture reference you had provided to actually mean.

But if not, I can accept that we agree to disagree and hope in God to cause the increase hopefully sooner rather than later.

 

[Golgotha]

Thank you for confirming my point. You have a different idea of what the rapture is than what most believers think it is, which is why your verses have no bearing on the discussion. 1 Thess 4:17 remains the only verse that supposedly supports the popular idea of the rapture, which is only that all believers will be removed from the earth.

All I can say now is you are not hearing me, so we can hope in the Lord for each other for God to cause the increase on either side of this issue, sooner rather than later.

 

[Free]

There are more verses about the rapture than that one.

Luke 21:33-36 has Jesus warning about believers in a time as described as where they are not living in the great tribulation for how the cares of this life can be a snare to them and that they were to pray to be worthy to escape & stand before the Son of Man.

This is about the second coming and being prepared for it, not the rapture.

Luke 14:15-24 talks about the King's Supper as those invited were making excuses for the everyday cares of life or a loved one for not going to the King's Supper.

This is about those devout religious Jews who should have been ready for the gospel, for the coming of the kingdom of God, but were not (see the parallel passage in Matt. 22:1-14). It is not about the rapture.

Luke 14:25-35 has often been misapplied as if that is how the disciples is supposed to live down here in giving up loved ones, everything he has, and his life, but it is about being ready & willing to give up our lives down here for when the Bridegroom comes.

This passage is about the cost of discipleship, exactly as the ESV title states. A true believer is to be ready and willing to give up everything to follow Jesus in the here and now. Hence verse 33: "So therefore, any one of you who does not renounce all that he has cannot be my disciple." This isn't even eschatological, never mind about the rapture.

Luke 17:26-37 describes the times we live in for why we are to be always ready to go, in leaving our lives behind as Lot's wife was mentioned as a warning against loving anything in this life to not want to leave when He comes. Verse 37 has a Greek word "sunago" for how they were being taken with hospitality to resort in & to be entertained and "aeros" for wing-like flight describing the manner the rapture.

Note the mention of Noah and that "the flood came and destroyed them all" (vs 27). Those who are taken are those who lose their lives; they are taken in judgement. Those whose lives are saved are those who are left. This is about judgement, not the rapture.

Luke 12:40-49 & John 15:1-8 has Jesus warning about not abiding in Him & His words as His disciples for why a saved believer would be cut off or cast away.

The passage in Luke is about the second coming and the judgement that will immediately follow, not the rapture. The passage in John is about the need to abide in Christ, not the rapture.

Paul warned that could happen to himself and not just lose the rewards of crowns if he did not continually bring his body under subjection; 1 Corinthians 9:24-27.

Certainly not about the rapture.

That day in Luke 12:49 is that day in 1 Corinthians 3:13 for wen God will judge His House and every believer at the rapture event per 1 Peter 4:17-19 but verse 19 in the KJV has the clear message that He is faithful to keep the souls of His saints that suffer getting left behind. 1 Corinthians 3:10-17 testify that if anyone defiles the temple of God, they will be destroyed; hence die a physical death in verses 16-17 but their spirits are still saved per verse 15.

God warned this church in Revelation 2:18-25 that they will be judged by their works with death if they did not repent and thus wind up being cast into the bed of the coming great tribulation.

There are 2 kinds of inheritance or 2 kinds of vessels in the kingdom of God per 2 Timothy 2:18-21 for why former believers are still called to repent so they can be received by Him as that vessel unto honor in His House to attend the Marriage Supper in Heaven ( 2 Timothy 2:10-13 ) for even if we believe not, He is faithful for He still abides in us per verse 13 even after being denied by Him in verse 12. Otherwise, if they do not repent with His help, they get left behind to die, their spirits with the Lord, waiting for their resurrection after the great tribulation as vessels unto dishonor in His House. Those vessel unto dishonor are those of wood & earth see verse 20 as they are in His House still, testifying to the power of God in salvation for all those that had believed in Him at one time, even in His name.

Not about the rapture either.

So the rapture event is God judging His House.

I'll stop here because, as I have pointed out previously, your idea of the rapture is not the one that most believers hold to and is not what was being discussed in this thread.

In order for your first post in here to stand, you first have to show that your idea of the rapture is correct. Only then can you begin to apply the verses you have given. So, at this point, only 1 Thess 4:17 "supports" the popular idea of the rapture.

 

[Free]

All I can say now is you are not hearing me, so we can hope in the Lord for each other for God to cause the increase on either side of this issue, sooner rather than later.

I am hearing you; I just think that you're wrong, and I have pointed out why.

 

[JLB]

Best to explain how I am misapplying the scripture I have referenced wrong for how I am applying the scripture reference you had provided to actually mean.

I honestly don't know how you are applying the scripture.

 

[Golgotha]

This is about the second coming and being prepared for it, not the rapture.

I am glad the Lord is continuing this iron sharpening iron between us now.

Do reconsider Luke 21:33-36 because if no one can buy nor sell during the great tribulation without the mark of the beast. Since the saints are not taking the mark, how can they be ensnared by the cares of this life and even be tempted to get drunk unless they get the mark to buy & sell?

Luke 21:33 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away. 34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. 35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. 36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

Note verse 33. That is what Jesus is warning believers to be ready to escape from in those days where the cares of this life and drunkenness can ensnare believers.

You may see the parallel of this waning in Luke 17:26-37 as the days described as carefree for when the rapture comes whereby destruction follows afterwards so hardly the days for believers during the great tribulation, let alone towards the end of it. These warnings apply to believers now in these latter days not for, during, nor the end of the great tribulation.

I''ll leave this point here so as to keep the post short.

God be willing, I shall continue replying to your post.

 

[Golgotha]

This is about those devout religious Jews who should have been ready for the gospel, for the coming of the kingdom of God, but were not (see the parallel passage in Matt. 22:1-14). It is not about the rapture.

Your reply is to this post of mine below:

Golgotha said:
Luke 14:15-24 talks about the King's Supper as those invited were making excuses for the everyday cares of life or a loved one for not going to the King's Supper.

After reading your reference, I would have to agree that it is somewhat parallel but moreso towards my application rather than what you are applying this to mean.

I see how you applied it towards the Jews, but He also mentioned the Gentiles also. You can say that when the Jews rejected the gospel, the gospel went to the Gentiles.

But as you read this to the end, one can see that in the end this is about reception and not about salvation as the one not wearing his wedding garment illustrates how for a believer, some works can void faith for why he as a believer, was not wearing his wedding garment to be cast out.

Romans 4:13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith. 14 For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect: 15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.

So that promise is for the heir of the world to inherit that by keeping the faith which is the good fight.

So while I see how you apply it to only mean the gospel to the Jews, and yet I continue this application as after being rejected and the gospel went to the Gentiles, BUT when the reception actually came, there is what? A judgment on someone that was there, not wearing his wedding garment ( faith ) for why he was cast out after both Jews & Gentiles were invited to come.

Jesus told His disciples that He was going to prepare a place for them in John 14:1-3 so that where He is, they will be there also. Jesus is referred to as the Bridegroom because that is how He will come back first in "appearing" for why those taken are caught up with Him in the air to be forever with the Lord in Heaven where He is now.

But not everyone invited or called will be ready as in chosen to go with Him.

So Luke 14:15-24 is a different story and not exactly parallel since those invited were saved but making excuses not to come for the cares of this life. They did not kill His servants telling them to come and so a different message is being given here and that is the cost of discipleship. In continuing as Jesus expounds to the multitude, Jesus explains the cost of discipleship in Luke 14:25-35 which is about being ready & willing to leave all things and loved ones behind when He, as the Bridegroom, comes to go to this King's Supper in Heaven as mentioned in Luke 14:15-24.

Gd be willing, I shall continue replying to your post in keeping this second one short.

 

[Golgotha]

This passage is about the cost of discipleship, exactly as the ESV title states. A true believer is to be ready and willing to give up everything to follow Jesus in the here and now. Hence verse 33: "So therefore, any one of you who does not renounce all that he has cannot be my disciple." This isn't even eschatological, never mind about the rapture.

Your reply to my quote below:

Golgotha said:
Luke 14:25-35 has often been misapplied as if that is how the disciples is supposed to live down here in giving up loved ones, everything he has, and his life, but it is about being ready & willing to give up our lives down here for when the Bridegroom comes.

Do reconsider your comment since we are called to love one another and yet here in this discourse, we are commanded to hate our father & mother.

Luke 14:25 And there went great multitudes with him: and he turned, and said unto them, 26 If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple. 27 And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple. 28 For which of you, intending to build a tower, sitteth not down first, and counteth the cost, whether he have sufficient to finish it? 29 Lest haply, after he hath laid the foundation, and is not able to finish it, all that behold it begin to mock him, 30 Saying, This man began to build, and was not able to finish. 31 Or what king, going to make war against another king, sitteth not down first, and consulteth whether he be able with ten thousand to meet him that cometh against him with twenty thousand? 32 Or else, while the other is yet a great way off, he sendeth an ambassage, and desireth conditions of peace. 33 So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple. 34 Salt is good: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be seasoned? 35 It is neither fit for the land, nor yet for the dunghill; but men cast it out. He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.

Imagine a saved believer living his life as His disciple, even as extreme as you seem to be applying that to mean as if to apply to how he lives on earth as His disciples; he does all of that but is unwilling to leave when the rapture comes?

No. This has to be applied to leaving everything and everyone he loves behind on earth for when He comes for who can fulfill how you apply that cost of discipleship to mean in being His disciple on earth?

Your application is "not counting the cost of discipleship" because why is there a consequence of being cast out?

Hence left behind from the rapture event. This is about a disciple that did not consider the cost that he would have to leave everything and everyone behind for when the time when the Bridegroom arrives. That "disciple" got wrapped up too much in serving Him that he had never considered he would have to leave it all. That is the cost of discipleship.

That ties in for why Luke had that part following the one about the King's Supper in Luke 14:15-24 for how believers invited were excusing themselves from coming for the everyday cares of life. Hence, they did not want to leave either.

God be willing, I shall continue.

 

[Golgotha]

Note the mention of Noah and that "the flood came and destroyed them all" (vs 27). Those who are taken are those who lose their lives; they are taken in judgement. Those whose lives are saved are those who are left. This is about judgement, not the rapture.

You replied to my quote below;

Golgotha said:
Luke 17:26-37 describes the times we live in for why we are to be always ready to go, in leaving our lives behind as Lot's wife was mentioned as a warning against loving anything in this life to not want to leave when He comes. Verse 37 has a Greek word "sunago" for how they were being taken with hospitality to resort in & to be entertained and "aeros" for wing-like flight describing the manner the rapture.

I forget that modern bibles do not keep the same message as the KJV has it.

Luke 17:26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. 27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. 28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; 29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. 30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

It is by leaving the condemned places was how they were saved as Noah & his family by the ark and Lot's family by leaving those cities.

31 In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back. 32 Remember Lot's wife. 33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.

Again, believers are not to love their lives on earth that they would be ensnared not to leave it. "Oh wait Lord! Wheel of Fortune is on !" It could happen.

34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left. 35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

37 And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.

The English word "gathered" is from the Greek word sunago which has been defined by Strong's concordance to mean this; " from sun - sun 4862 and agw - ago 71; to lead together, i.e. collect or convene; specially, to entertain (hospitably):--+ accompany, assemble (selves, together), bestow, come together, gather (selves together, up, together), lead into, resort, take in."

So it is the good guys as in the saints abiding in Him & willing to go being taken here.

The English word "eagle" was taken from the Greek word "aetos" which is defined in Strong's Concordance as "from the same as ahr - aer 109; an eagle (from its wind-like flight):--eagle."

This is one example for why I believe the KJV should be translated better whereas modern Bibles has done a horrible job in making eagles to mean vultures for why believers seem to apply that reference to mean the bad guys are the ones being removed when it is not in context of His words from verse 26 to verse 37.

Note how Jesus described the carefree atmosphere of the sinful world before this deliverance? That is hardly descriptive for believers at the end of the great tribulation when the beast is waging war on the saints who cannot buy & sell to survive unless they have the mark; which they will not have as Jesus is keeping their souls for when they die while they suffer to death in the great tribulation..

So those saints taken as in the rapture.. are avoiding the consequences of being left behind and that destruction that will come on a third of the earth Revelation 8:7 that will set up the coming New World Order and the mark of the beast system for the great tribulation.

God be willing, I shall continue, but keeping this post short on one point. Imagine me trying to reply to your one post with all of this?

 

[Golgotha]

The passage in Luke is about the second coming and the judgement that will immediately follow, not the rapture. The passage in John is about the need to abide in Christ, not the rapture.

Your reply above to my quote below;

Golgotha said:
Luke 12:40-49 & John 15:1-8 has Jesus warning about not abiding in Him & His words as His disciples for why a saved believer would be cut off or cast away.

Luke 12:40-49 is Jesus warning His disciples to be ready or else be cut off with unbelievers when that fire comes on the earth Luke 12:49 with Revelation 8:7

John 15:1-8 is about discipleship and how remaining as His disciples is how one avoids being cut off for not abiding in Him & His words to be cast into that fire which happens to be the one coming on one third of the earth if you align with Luke 12:40-49 & revelation 8:7.

Neither one has Jesus described as being on earth but somewhere else for why He is not going to experience that fire on earth because He is in Heaven where the Father is. That is where He will take abiding disciples to as promised in John 14:1-3. Hence another reference about the rapture.

 

[Free]

I am glad the Lord is continuing this iron sharpening iron between us now.

Do reconsider Luke 21:33-36 because if no one can buy nor sell during the great tribulation without the mark of the beast. Since the saints are not taking the mark, how can they be ensnared by the cares of this life and even be tempted to get drunk unless they get the mark to buy & sell?

Luke 21:33 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away. 34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. 35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. 36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

Note verse 33. That is what Jesus is warning believers to be ready to escape from in those days where the cares of this life and drunkenness can ensnare believers.

You may see the parallel of this waning in Luke 17:26-37 as the days described as carefree for when the rapture comes whereby destruction follows afterwards so hardly the days for believers during the great tribulation, let alone towards the end of it. These warnings apply to believers now in these latter days not for, during, nor the end of the great tribulation.

I''ll leave this point here so as to keep the post short.

God be willing, I shall continue replying to your post.

This is going to get us nowhere. I previously stated that in order for your first post in here to stand, you first have to show that your idea of the rapture is correct. Only then can you begin to apply the verses you have given. So, at this point, only 1 Thess 4:17 "supports" the popular idea of the rapture.

Until you do that, we cannot have a meaningful discussion because we are both talking about two different concepts of the rapture.

 

[Golgotha]

Certainly not about the rapture.

Might be better to explain what Paul was talking about in regards to being a castaway and not just losing the rewards of crowns in 1 Corinthians 9:24-27 which is why I referred to it as happening at the pre great tribulation rapture event when God shall judge His House.

Not about the rapture either.

Pretty sure you skipped over those scripture in there. It would be more convincing by explaining what all those scripture was about and not how I am aligning them to mean for how God will judge His house first at the pre-great tribulation rapture event..

I'll stop here because, as I have pointed out previously, your idea of the rapture is not the one that most believers hold to and is not what was being discussed in this thread.

In order for your first post in here to stand, you first have to show that your idea of the rapture is correct. Only then can you begin to apply the verses you have given. So, at this point, only 1 Thess 4:17 "supports" the popular idea of the rapture.

Only God can show you that this rightly dividing the word of truth on this subject as correct.