What is the Strong Delusion? Extraterrestrial Designers seeded belief in God

[Nathan]

You are confusing your definition of 'Christian' with all those who call themselves 'Christian'. Of course, there are many claiming to be led by the Holy Spirit, but are not.

However, I wouldn't go so far as your last claim regarding those who "think" they are Christian. Basically, there are two classifications for salvation -- the predestinated/elect and those with free will who believe. In the endtime, the elect cannot be deceived. However, all those free-will Christians are free game for Satan's deception.

Since the vast majority of those calling themselves 'Christian' are free game for Satan's deception, it is fair to conclude that some, who may have been Spirit-led Christians, will get deceived [by not knowing the Truth] and some, who had already taken the mark of the beast, will smarten up and not worship the Beast.

Perhaps, your position is driven from the false perception of 'Once Saved -- Always Saved'. Some folks, who hold this belief, will claim that fallen preachers [like the 4 Jims of Pentecostalism] were never Christians to begin with, rather then admit that it is possible to lose one's salvation.

In review of your postings regarding 2 Th. 2, it would appear that your twisting of scripture could be explained by the false OSAS belief. Instead of acknowledging that the context pertains to the perserving of Christians' salvation versus Christians that lose their salvation, you attempt to bastardize the meaning into distinguishing between Christians and non-Christians.

Keep in mind that God's sole purpose for this flesh dispenstion of time is to test those that know both Christ and Satan to see who will pass the test and who
will fail it, and thereby perish. Non-Christians do not necessarily perish -- most get their opportunity in spriritual bodies at the end of the Lord's Day. This truth pretty much disproves your 2 Th. 2 theology.



What I have done is accurately teach 2 Th. 2. It is about those who call themsleves 'Christian' that wish to believe a lie that Christ returns first. It is very easy to see why those folks deserve to perish [if they were taught the Truth and rejected it]. Because, if they hold true to such belief, they will worship the Antichrist, while thinking he is the true Christ. At all times worshipping the Antichrist, they would have been thinking that they are leading a good Christian life.

God is so good that He delivers the first 4 vials of His wrath unto those Christians, who believe the lie, as a last warning in hope of getting them to repent.

If you cannot see the Truth here, it certainly is not the result of not having it been taught properly to you.

There is certainly a lot here to reply too. But some of it, rather most of it, I think stems from a few certain idea's you have.

Off the bat, I would like to say that I in no way believe in the false doctrine of OSAS. I believe it contributes, along with pre-trib rapture, to the deluding false doctrine preached and held to by professing 'Christians'.

This has to then lead me to a question that I have to ask in order to better understand where you are coming from and what you believe.

Do you believe that there are different "kinds" of Christians? As in there is more than one "thing" that determines what a Christian is?

 

[Nathan]

I ask the above question based on your statement below.

However, I wouldn't go so far as your last claim regarding those who "think" they are Christian. Basically, there are two classifications for salvation -- the predestinated/elect and those with free will who believe. In the endtime, the elect cannot be deceived. However, all those free-will Christians are free game for Satan's deception.

What do you mean by "two classifications"?

 

[Elijah674]

Re: What is the Strong Delusion? Extraterrestrial Designers seeded belief in God

Well, seeing that ALL the Broadway ones & All the Rev. 17:1-5 ones are Prophesied as past/tense! (God says!) Then just perhaps some of these ones might get back to the thread topic and find what most of these ones while even being classed as Babylons MASS CONFUSION have in UNITY AS WE SPEAK!??

Note Christs Word in Matt. 6:24! rome is even changing her apostate message some, by telling you'ins to not leave [your churchs!] And why so? because you are already IN satan's stuff! Got that?? Read again the Lords Word of Rev. 17:1-5, that is HIS INSPIRATION, Not anothers!

OK: What do you most ALL AGREE ON even now??? This is what WAS, & IS, 1/2 of THE [STRONG DELUSION]. For 120 years +, the ex/protestants + rome have agreed on these twi abominations! They are WOREDUMS BED PARTNERS of satan, first they still agree on.. Gen. 3:4's teaching that God lied & satan told the truth! So you have some spirit or soul or whatever that IS LIVING dead or alive! And God says that the 'soul shall die' ibid 3.

That is number one that will produce Exod. 7:9's false miracles as the sorcers, magicians with their enchantments! Of course all of these ones will teach that they are from God, huh! But one can read on in the N.T. side & find that these miracles are the real stuff of satan for deception. And you ones are all geared up for that already! and have been from day one of protestantism Strivings of the Holy Ghost with way past 120 years with NO CHANGE! (and it has only gone from bad to worse)

OK: Number two. rome changed the day of worship from the Lord's 7th Day Sabbath to the devils sun stuff. (see Eze. 8:16-18 for what God says about that, even with the BRANCH TO THEIR NOSE) Did you get that?? And what do you do?? For well past that Gen. 6:3 repeat of the Holy Spirits Striving (Eccl. 3:15) we see you 'most' all fight against the Inspiration of God to stay in the satanic bed of satan.. again, for well on past the 12o years! You just continue on as did Cain in Gen 4:7 bringing a fruite sacrifice instead of the required Obedience that God call's for!

So the THREAD QUESTION will be the same two Delusion's that satan has secured you with ALREADY! What New thing does he need???? Eccl. 3:15

--Elijah

 

[Sam21]

It's interesting to note that the church of God did not yet exist when these things were taught to His disciples.. Also notice how it speaks of those who are Judaea to flee to the mountains.. Exactly what Zechariah says in the potion I refererenced yesterday.
It also speaks of the Sabbath day.

These are important distinctions in the word of God which should not be ignored.. Just as we should not ignore the mystery pertaining to Israel lest we become wise in our own conceits

The church or assembly(group)of God had to exist when Jesus spoke those words and Jesus called them the elect,were the apostles a group believing in Christ?,if so then they were a church by definition...now the "Spirit indwelt church"did not exist until Pentacost. If we remember that the actual word CHURCH was just a word that meant assembly or group with a common purpose, then it becomes clear that immediately after Jesus picked the apostles,Jesus had a church. It is terribly misleading to claim that the church of Christ did not come into existence until Pentacost because Jesus had a "saved assembly" BEFORE Pentacost. The Spirit indwelt assembly did not come into existence until Pentacost,however there was a saved assembly(church)before Pentacost...that is a fact.

 

[Hitch]

The church or assembly(group)of God had to exist when Jesus spoke those words and Jesus called them the elect,were the apostles a group believing in Christ?,if so then they were a church by definition...now the "Spirit indwelt church"did not exist until Pentacost. If we remember that the actual word CHURCH was just a word that meant assembly or group with a common purpose, then it becomes clear that immediately after Jesus picked the apostles,Jesus had a church. It is terribly misleading to claim that the church of Christ did not come into existence until Pentacost because Jesus had a "saved assembly" BEFORE Pentacost. The Spirit indwelt assembly did not come into existence until Pentacost,however there was a saved assembly(church)before Pentacost...that is a fact.

DF is full of garbage like that.

 

[Who Says]

You contradict yourself. On the one hand, you claim that His return was for them "personally". [I agree with this.] Then, you try to connect those individuals to the pillars and fathers of the 'church'. There is no such transference of Christ's salvation from 'persons' to 'church' anywhere in scripture.

The concept of 'church' salvation is easily decided. Those that make the first resurrection [judgment based upon flesh existence] are described in Rev. 20:4. The 'church' is not included therein. However, individuals are judged.

In fact, most scriptures regarding the pillars and fathers of the 'church' are given in derision -- as they are the source of false teaching. If the entire 'church' were 'saved', there would be no need for God to judge preachers first. Yet, God judges preachers first because He holds them accountable for all the souls lost to Satan due to their false teachings.

Amen.

The salvation of that which is (and thus those who prove to be) the true church was guaranteed from before the foundation of the world.

 

[Sam21]

Amen.

The salvation of that which is (and thus those who prove to be) the true church was guaranteed from before the foundation of the world.

There is no such thing as a true church until after salvation...before that it is just lost people who need a Saviour.

 

[Elijah674]

The church or assembly(group)of God had to exist when Jesus spoke those words and Jesus called them the elect,were the apostles a group believing in Christ?,if so then they were a church by definition...now the "Spirit indwelt church"did not exist until Pentacost. If we remember that the actual word CHURCH was just a word that meant assembly or group with a common purpose, then it becomes clear that immediately after Jesus picked the apostles,Jesus had a church. It is terribly misleading to claim that the church of Christ did not come into existence until Pentacost because Jesus had a "saved assembly" BEFORE Pentacost. The Spirit indwelt assembly did not come into existence until Pentacost,however there was a saved assembly(church)before Pentacost...that is a fact.

If that was another post, then it is for that post material!

If that were true then the one filled with the Holy Ghost in Acts 7:55 (FULL OF THE HOLY GHOST!) makes your posting flawed! Verse 38 says that.. 'THIS IS HE THAT WAS IN THE CHURCH IN THE WILDERNESS...' See also Psalms 77:13 And Paul states that 'THAT ROCK WAS CHRIST'. 1 Cor. 10:1-4 (verse 1 uses a Word of 'Ignorant'??

--Elijah

 

[Who Says]

By the way Nathan,

From all that has been previously said about you I have begun to wonder if they have seen a picture of you other than that anchor icon you use?

Do you have a flat nose and give out a little double snort every time you laugh?

I have had people say that about me, too. Now I am self-conscience about how I laugh.


Just remember that when anyone pokes fun of us for how we look it provides opportunity to us to practice letting love cover over sin.

And if we could not do that then we imperfect humans would rarely be capable of communicating for any length of time in peace.

James 3:2 "For in many things we offend all. If any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect man, and able also to bridle the whole body.
3 Behold, we put bits in the horses' mouths, that they may obey us; and we turn about their whole body.
4 Behold also the ships, which though they be so great, and are driven of fierce winds, yet are they turned about with a very small helm, whithersoever the governor listeth.
5 Even so the tongue is a little member, and boasteth great things. Behold, how great a matter a little fire kindleth!"

The trick is in not allowing ourselves to be set on fire. And the water of the word based in God's love keeps that fire extinguished in us.

Don't take that personally for it is good that we all have moments of opportunity to think about it. Even our weaknesses are used as good things to teach us. God is able to use all things to the good of those he loves and he can do so because they love him and let him.

That is why I am trying to only ever respond to such things by simply asking what value there was in saying it. I suppose that is even too much, but it is helping to get me along to that goal that I desire where I take no note of such things at all, truly just letting them be covered over by God's love in me.

Psalms 103:10 "He hath not dealt with us after our sins; nor rewarded us according to our iniquities."

Psalms 130:3 "If thou, LORD, shouldest mark iniquities, O Lord, who shall stand?
4 But there is forgiveness with thee, that thou mayest be feared."

 

[Nathan]

The church or assembly(group)of God had to exist when Jesus spoke those words and Jesus called them the elect,were the apostles a group believing in Christ?,if so then they were a church by definition...now the "Spirit indwelt church"did not exist until Pentacost. If we remember that the actual word CHURCH was just a word that meant assembly or group with a common purpose, then it becomes clear that immediately after Jesus picked the apostles,Jesus had a church. It is terribly misleading to claim that the church of Christ did not come into existence until Pentacost because Jesus had a "saved assembly" BEFORE Pentacost. The Spirit indwelt assembly did not come into existence until Pentacost,however there was a saved assembly(church)before Pentacost...that is a fact.

Actually, they received the Spirit to a degree before Pentecost.

Jhn 20:22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit.

 

[Who Says]

Actually, they received the Spirit to a degree before Pentecost.

Jhn 20:22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit.

Amen, the twelve foundation stones first installed in alignment with the chief cornerstone.

 

[warhorse]

Re: Be not ignorant of this one thing..

So you believe that the Lord will be King over all the earth for one day (24 hours) and that's it.. ? For example..

And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.

It does say in that day doesn't it.. ? You take this to mean one 24 hour period ?

It does, but it also says in Rev 6v Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

So we can surmise based on direct scripture that the kingdom (although started on that day) does not end in that day, but lasts a thousand years.

 

[Watchman_2]

Interesting. Christ tells us we should be careful of ever idle word we say. If you did not prove me in gross error, then why did you state such in a previous post?

How did I prove you in gross error?? It was by showing you the Word of Truth. I am simply the messenger -- it is the Word that does the proving/disproving.

Out of the mouth proceeds the things of the heart. If you really believed that the Bible had proved me wrong, I dare say thats what you would have written. But alas, let God's Word be true and everyman a lier. Your heart spoke all it needed to right there.

Sure, you can now state that it is His word that sits in judgement, but it is not what you had stated before. And if it were Christ who were judging me, would He not do so through His Spirit? Do you think that He judges another through the words of mere man?

I showed you exactly how you were in gross error from the Word of God. It was you that were falsely claiming that I was judging you. Discerning that one is in gross error theologically is our duty as Christians.

2Timothy states that the entirety of God's Word is applicable, yet when I state that you have camped out in that one passage you deny the need to go outside of it for correct interpretation. Context is not only based in the book or chapter, its based in the entirety of the Bible.

Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
​

So, according to you, when one reads John 14:6, one has to go elsewhere to get proper interpretation.

I use this example just to point out the outright absurdity of your claim. Though it is true that sometimes, one has to go elsewhere in scripture to put a particular scripture in context of subject, place, time, or order, it is not always the case. It certainly is not the case with respect to 2 Thes. 2. Paul gave us the Truth/Lie therein which preserves one or causes some to perish. The only reason you went outside of 2 Th. 2 is because you bastardized the meaning of 'saved' to mean salvation, when it does not mean that at all.

"Pig-Headed"? Really? So insulting comments is what is supposed to bring about the "truth" as you see it? Interesting, because this is not what we are taught in the NT.

Well, I gave you the true interpretation and showed you where your gross error in interpretation came from. So, the only real question is why you are not thanking me for correcting you and providing you the Truth of the Word. I really don't think you are a scorner of the Word as Pro. 9:8 states. So, I speculate that you are too prideful [pig-headed] to admit error.

The same place, and same person, you are drawing your conclusions from stated;

Eph 4:25 Therefore, having put away falsehood, let each one of you speak the truth with his neighbor, for we are members one of another. Be angry and do not sin; do not let the sun go down on your anger, and give no opportunity to the devil. Let the thief no longer steal, but rather let him labor, doing honest work with his own hands, so that he may have something to share with anyone in need. Let no corrupting talk come out of your mouths, but only such as is good for building up, as fits the occasion, that it may give grace to those who hear.

If you call "pig-headed" good for building up....well...

See also -

1Co 5:6 Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?
1Co 5:7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:
1Co 5:8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.
​

Certainly, after being proven to be in gross error, you have not replied to me in the spirit of sincerity and truth -- but, one of denial. I'm just trying to drive the leaven from you. For if your goal here is not sincerity and truth, the leaven will spoil the entire lump -

Gal 5:9 A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump.
​

You use Proverbs 9:8 to state that I am a "scorner"?

Pro 9:8 Do not reprove a scoffer, or he will hate you; reprove a wise man, and he will love you.

Do you suppose I "hate" you? Very much not so. I love you. If I did not, then I would not spend the time I do in conversation with you. Maybe you misunderstand what love is?

Go back and look at how you replied me after you were shown your gross errors. There was not a word of gratitude for the edification you received.

I do love the truth, and to say that I was not taken back by your accusations is an understatement. I was, and responded as such. You believe that I am in gross error. Its undeniable because you stated it with your own words. You judged me and you stated it with your own words. It did penetrate my brain and I saw what you were saying. I forgive you, and hold now nothing against you. What did you find that I should be ashamed of?

You were shown your gross error from the Word. Either you believe the Word or not.

With all of that said, I would love to still continue the topic at hand. It is evident, in context, that Paul is speaking of "the" truth of the Gospel by his statement of such later on in the chapter. So therefore, the truth is not referring to the timing of Christ return. It is definitely referring to the truth as in the Gospel. While the timing of Christ return is in the Gospel(to an extent), it is not "the" Gospel.

Th 2:10 and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.

2Th 2:13-14 But we ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the firstfruits to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth. To this he called you through our gospel, so that you may obtain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

The timing of the gathering to Christ is not what peoples eternal lives hinge on. And this is exactly what Paul is using as a opposite of those who do believe the lie.

2Th 2:11-12 Therefore God sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false, in order that all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

He contrasts unrighteousness with the truth. Unrighteousness is the same as lawlessness, it is the state of ones heart. The timing of the gathering has nothing to do with the law. There is no command from God or Christ that we must believe He comes after the Antichrist is exposed. It is wise, and it is wisdom to understand the timing. But its not a command, therefore it cannot be considered to be having pleasure in "unrighteousness".

I have already demonstrated your gross error several times. What purpose is served by presenting the same lame and false arguments that you have already raised before?? You are still hung up on the word 'saved'.

So, according to you, people who have pleasure in eating bacon, in eating lobster, or in celebrating 'Easter' will perish.

 

[Watchman_2]

wm:



Its not limited to eschatolgy, but also The Truth of the Gospel is included of which last things are included, for paul says:

2 thess 1:8

In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

And they cannot obey [believe] the Gospel because God has sent them strong delusion to believe a lie, but the Gospel is the Truth..

2 Thes. 1:8 is not on point with 2 Thes. 2. The Truth/lie which saves [preserves salvation] or which causes some to perish is defined in v. 2-4. That is the return of Christ coming after Satan.

 

[Watchman_2]

There is certainly a lot here to reply too. But some of it, rather most of it, I think stems from a few certain idea's you have.

Off the bat, I would like to say that I in no way believe in the false doctrine of OSAS. I believe it contributes, along with pre-trib rapture, to the deluding false doctrine preached and held to by professing 'Christians'.

Good to know that. I was just speculating. If you are not a scorner to Truth and are not pig-headed, there has to be, IMO, a foundational Bible basic that you are missing which causes you to dismiss the Truth of 2 Th. 2.

This has to then lead me to a question that I have to ask in order to better understand where you are coming from and what you believe.

Do you believe that there are different "kinds" of Christians? As in there is more than one "thing" that determines what a Christian is?

You would have to define what you mean by "kinds" and by "thing".

 

[Eventide]

As you see that Day approaching..

It does, but it also says in Rev 6v Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

So we can surmise based on direct scripture that the kingdom (although started on that day) does not end in that day, but lasts a thousand years.

I agree. and I simply see the thousand year reign of Christ on earth as the Day of the Lord, the Day of Jesus Christ.. although it doesn't make much difference if you call the Day of the Lord one day, rather that the entire thousand years.. it's the literal reign of Christ on earth which I think is the important biblical truth of it.. when He is King over all the earth in that Day.

 

[Nathan]

Good to know that. I was just speculating. If you are not a scorner to Truth and are not pig-headed, there has to be, IMO, a foundational Bible basic that you are missing which causes you to dismiss the Truth of 2 Th. 2.



You would have to define what you mean by "kinds" and by "thing".

See post #162 for what I meant. I figured there would be confusion in the first asking of the question.

 

[Sam21]

Actually, they received the Spirit to a degree before Pentecost.

Jhn 20:22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit.

Very true, and before that the Holy Spirit was with them.

 

[Eventide]

Very true, and before that the Holy Spirit was with them.

I think it makes perfect sense that the Apostles would be given the Spirit beforehand, knowing that the church of God is built upon that very foundation.. the Apostles and the prophets.. and of course the Lord Jesus Christ being the chief cornerstone..

And we can't forget John 7 where we're plainly told that the Spirit had not yet been given as Christ was not yet glorified in His death, burial, and resurrection.

That's the true definition of the Christian isn't it.. one who has been baptized into the body of Christ by the Spirit of God, after they trusted in Christ, after hearing the gospel, and after they believed..?

So imo, the foundation was laid, and God began building it on Pentecost, 50 days after God's Passover Lamb was slain for the sin of the world.

 

[Nathan]

How did I prove you in gross error?? It was by showing you the Word of Truth. I am simply the messenger -- it is the Word that does the proving/disproving.

I showed you exactly how you were in gross error from the Word of God. It was you that were falsely claiming that I was judging you. Discerning that one is in gross error theologically is our duty as Christians.

Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
​

So, according to you, when one reads John 14:6, one has to go elsewhere to get proper interpretation.

I use this example just to point out the outright absurdity of your claim. Though it is true that sometimes, one has to go elsewhere in scripture to put a particular scripture in context of subject, place, time, or order, it is not always the case. It certainly is not the case with respect to 2 Thes. 2. Paul gave us the Truth/Lie therein which preserves one or causes some to perish. The only reason you went outside of 2 Th. 2 is because you bastardized the meaning of 'saved' to mean salvation, when it does not mean that at all.

Well, I gave you the true interpretation and showed you where your gross error in interpretation came from. So, the only real question is why you are not thanking me for correcting you and providing you the Truth of the Word. I really don't think you are a scorner of the Word as Pro. 9:8 states. So, I speculate that you are too prideful [pig-headed] to admit error.

See also -

1Co 5:6 Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?
1Co 5:7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:
1Co 5:8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.
​

Certainly, after being proven to be in gross error, you have not replied to me in the spirit of sincerity and truth -- but, one of denial. I'm just trying to drive the leaven from you. For if your goal here is not sincerity and truth, the leaven will spoil the entire lump -

Gal 5:9 A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump.
​

Go back and look at how you replied me after you were shown your gross errors. There was not a word of gratitude for the edification you received.

You were shown your gross error from the Word. Either you believe the Word or not.

I have already demonstrated your gross error several times. What purpose is served by presenting the same lame and false arguments that you have already raised before?? You are still hung up on the word 'saved'.

So, according to you, people who have pleasure in eating bacon, in eating lobster, or in celebrating 'Easter' will perish.

You are certainly an interesting character. Very interesting indeed. Tell me something, where do we see Christ calling people names and talking about people to "thanking Him"? You have a set mind approach to this passage. That is plain to see. So I am not trying to sway you. I am still up for discussion, but I would like to keep it in love.

What I do have a "problem" with, problem as in completely not sure what you mean and where your pulling it from, is the claim you are making against me that "according to me" people who eat certain things and celebrate Easter will perish. Have I missed something that I posted earlier in this thread that had to do with these things?

Or is this a draw upon other posts in other threads? Are you going by another name when you have been on here in other names? You do know that internet IP addresses are completely traceable, right? The reason I state this is because you seem rather hostile. I am a bit uneasy by it. I am not sure if there has been other issues that we have talked about with you posting under a different name, that are now surfacing in this thread.

I really would like to know why you feel that I think these things about people.


Oh....you cannot drive leaven from anyone unless you are Christ or the Spirit of Christ...and your not claiming that are you? My goal is truth in love. Nothing else. I will let Christ deal with His own servants, its not my place to do anything but present truth in love.