What is the Strong Delusion? Extraterrestrial Designers seeded belief in God

[Watchman_2]

They just simply fall prey to the false Christ. You have to remember, its not Christ followers that receive the delusion. Its everyone. And there are millions of people who are of different faiths who do not believe in Christ return who will receive this delusion sent by God.

You are confusing the delusion of 2 Thes. 2:11 with the endtime deception of the Antichrist. The delusion of 2 Thes. 2:11 is given by God -- not the Antichrist. God gives delusion to those Christians that choose to believe the lie that Christ returns first.

So according to your thought process, the atheist who does not believe in the rapture will NOT receive the delusion. That is simply not true. The delusion is sent to everyone except true believers. So therefore it has to have a common thread amongst them all.

Atheists, as well as all other non-Christian religions, will get their opportunity of salvation during the Lord's millennial reign. Of course, they will be deceived by Satan; but, their salvation is not at issue in the flesh during Satan's reign.

The 'delusion' of 2 Thes. 2:11 is given by God to Christians only. [Note, in order to receive the delusion, one has to reject the Truth for the lie.] Non-Christians have not been taught Bible Truth. Hence, God has no basis to send the spirit of delusion on them.

Christians, alone, are the target of Satan's tribulation. Those souls in other religions are not at risk. Satan get his opportunity with them at the end of the Lord's day.

2Th 2:9-11 The coming of the lawless one is by the activity of Satan with all power and false signs and wonders, and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing(not just false believers or 'Christians'), because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.

Therefore God sends them("them" referring back to the previous sentence) a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false, in order that all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

You missed the key clause [italicized in your quote]. Those that 'perish' [souls destroyed in Lake of Fire] are Christians. Christians are the only ones that could have possibly been taught the truth to be saved and, thereby, rejected it.

 

[Watchman_2]

Well then, maybe I'll just tear 1st Thess 4 out of my bible..

For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Now if you'd like to pretend that this doesn't say what it says or mean what it says then by all means enlighten me..

As mentioned, the rapture of the church of God (the dead in Christ first, and then those who are alive) is a biblical fact. It's the TIMING of this event which is often debated..

Well, you don't need to tear 1 Thes. 4 out of your Bible -- just learn what it actually is teaching. If you do your homework instead of listening to a bunch of damned [2 Thes. 2:9-12] rapture teachers, you would have concluded that such scriptures are not speaking of a rapture [of the church] at all.

Church rapture if very easily disproven. See Rev. 20:4. There is no mention of the 'church' at all in the list of those saved at the first resurrection. Salvation is individually based -- not church based.

Now, if you will dump 'church' from your lexicon and insert 'the elect', then you are getting closer to the Truth. At the seventh and last trumpet [end of this flesh dispensation of time], the 'saints' [those that already passed the test in the flesh, who were judged saved at death] come with Christ. God's 'elect' [alive in the flesh] are converted [as are everyone else -- 1 Cor. 15:51-53] into spiritual bodies and join the 'saints' [already in spiritual bodies] and live [already saved -- first resurrection] with Christ forever.

 

[Nathan]

You missed the key clause [italicized in your quote]. Those that 'perish' [souls destroyed in Lake of Fire] are Christians. Christians are the only ones that could have possibly been taught the truth to be saved and, thereby, rejected it.

So your saying that only Christians are the ones that perish???

 

[Watchman_2]

So your saying that only Christians are the ones that perish???

No -- if you read my entire reply to you, the 'delusion' is given by God only to Christians.

All, who never were taught the Truth [could not therefore 'reject' it for the lie in the endtime], are not at risk [souls destroyed in the Lake of Fire] in their flesh bodies. That would include many Christians, who have spent their entire lives in false rapture churches having never been exposed to the Truth. All, who were never taught the Truth, get their opportunity to learn it during the millennial reign of Christ.

Hence, in the context of 2 Thes. 2, the ones destined to perish by believing in the endtime lie are only Christians.

 

[Nathan]

No -- if you read my entire reply to you, the 'delusion' is given by God only to Christians.

All, who never were taught the Truth [could not therefore 'reject' it for the lie in the endtime], are not at risk [souls destroyed in the Lake of Fire] in their flesh bodies. That would include many Christians, who have spent their entire lives in false rapture churches having never been exposed to the Truth. All, who were never taught the Truth, get their opportunity to learn it during the millennial reign of Christ.

Hence, in the context of 2 Thes. 2, the ones destined to perish by believing in the endtime lie are only Christians.

I understand what your saying, but Paul does not limit the delusion to ONLY Christians. In fact, Christ-followers will not be deluded because they are following Christ.

The "them" in verse 11 refers to the "they" in verse 10 which is ANYONE who will not receive the truth. Not just people who say they believe in God. It means everyone. That would also include agnostics and atheists.

2Th 2:12 in order that all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

 

[Watchman_2]

I understand what your saying, but Paul does not limit the delusion to ONLY Christians. In fact, Christ-followers will not be deluded because they are following Christ.

The "them" in verse 11 refers to the "they" in verse 10 which is ANYONE who will not receive the truth. Not just people who say they believe in God. It means everyone. That would also include agnostics and atheists.

2Th 2:12 in order that all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Well, what can I say. I have proved you in error at least twice now. Yet, you are right back to your same original errant position. Of course, it is your own decision whether you wish to live in ignorance.

I will make one more attempt to penetrate the shields you have placed over yourself to prevent any Truth from entering therein. See the emboldened/increased size/italicized/underlined text in 2Th. 2:12 above.

The word rendered as 'all' in the manuscripts means -

G3956
πᾶς
pas
pas
Including all the forms of declension; apparently a primary word; all, any, every, the whole: - all (manner of, means) alway (-s), any (one), X daily, + ever, every (one, way), as many as, + no (-thing), X throughly, whatsoever, whole, whosoever.
​

So, your emphasis on the word 'all' is misplaced. The term 'all' refers to everyone of those who did not believe the truth. The truth/lie spoken of is defined in v. 2-4.

The delusion given by God is only given to Christians. No one else is at risk of having their souls being damned because of this lie. Of course, rapturists are Christ-followers all along -- up to the moment that they worship Antichrist, while thinking he is the true Christ. Raptursists, holding true to form, are the ones damned and will perish in the Lake of Fire at the endtime.

Of course, it is easy to see the fairness in God's decision to delude the mind of rapturists. God takes the worshipping of Satan, instead of Christ, seriously. Since the Bible is replete and easily understood to show that the Antichrist comes first, there is no reasonable excuse for rapturists, after being taught the Truth, to continue on in the false rapture religion. If they choose to reject the Truth for the lie of rapture, they deserve to perish.

 

[Eventide]

Well, you don't need to tear 1 Thes. 4 out of your Bible -- just learn what it actually is teaching.

And I told you to feel free to enlighten me as to what it DOES mean..

If you do your homework instead of listening to a bunch of damned [2 Thes. 2:9-12] rapture teachers, you would have concluded that such scriptures are not speaking of a rapture [of the church] at all.

Let me write this one more time.. slowly..

The rapture of the church of God is a scriptural fact... it is the TIMING which is often debated amongst Christians.

Church rapture if very easily disproven. See Rev. 20:4. There is no mention of the 'church' at all in the list of those saved at the first resurrection. Salvation is individually based -- not church based.

This is your proof.. are you joking.. ?

Now, if you will dump 'church' from your lexicon and insert 'the elect', then you are getting closer to the Truth.

OOOOhhhhhhh... YOU are one of the ELECT.. and all these years I thought that the Lord Jesus Christ was the elect (chosen) of God.. you're welcome to visit my thread on the subject if you'd like.. it's in Apologetics and Theology and titled.. The Lord Jesus Christ IS God's Elect.

So you must be one of those Calvinists or close relatives if you believe that you're the elect.

 

[Nathan]

Well, what can I say. I have proved you in error at least twice now. Yet, you are right back to your same original errant position. Of course, it is your own decision whether you wish to live in ignorance.

I will make one more attempt to penetrate the shields you have placed over yourself to prevent any Truth from entering therein. See the emboldened/increased size/italicized/underlined text in 2Th. 2:12 above.

The word rendered as 'all' in the manuscripts means -

G3956
πᾶς
pas
pas
Including all the forms of declension; apparently a primary word; all, any, every, the whole: - all (manner of, means) alway (-s), any (one), X daily, + ever, every (one, way), as many as, + no (-thing), X throughly, whatsoever, whole, whosoever.
​

So, your emphasis on the word 'all' is misplaced. The term 'all' refes to everyone of those who did not believe the truth. The truth/lie spoken of is defined in v. 2-4.

The delusion given by God is only given to Christians. No one else is at risk of having their souls being damned because of this lie. Of course, rapturists are Christ-followers all along -- up to the moment that they worship Antichrist, while thinking he is the true Christ. Raptursists, holding true to form, are the ones damned and will perish in the Lake of Fire at the endtime.

Of course, it is easy to see the fairness in God's decision to delude the mind of rapturists. God takes the worshipping of Satan, instead of Christ, seriously. Since the Bible is replete and easily understood to show that the Antichrist comes first, there is no reasonable excuse for rapturists, after being taught the Truth, to continue on in the false rapture religion. If they choose to reject the Truth for the lie of rapture, they deserve to perish.

Well, I admit, I do have some pretty thick skin...

But seeing how you are so generous to make one more attempt, I thought it was the least I could do to return the favor. :waving

Thank you for pointing out that the "all" is talking about those who will not receive the truth. I admit, I should have underlined and put in bold that phrase also.

2Th 2:10-12 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

The delusion is given to all people who receive "not the truth". You say that the "Truth" is that which tells people that Antichrist comes before Jesus. And while that is true, its not the truth. See, you seem to be one who likes the original language. And thats great because it really helps with this understanding.

There is this 'thing' called the "definite article". It is placed in front of a word when that word is used for a specific thing; in other words it references a noun. Now, your saying that the "truth" is that the Antichrist will come before Jesus. And again, this IS true, but it cannot save someone. See, "the truth" spoken of in verse 10 says that they will not receive it "that they might be saved".

This is speaking of salvation. And unless we are going to say that "believing that Antichrist is coming before Jesus" is the Gospel, then we cannot say that it will save anyone. It will 'save' them from possible deception of the Antichrist, but even that is just a possibility because Jesus Himself said this;

Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if [it were] possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

So I will whole heartedly agree that it is true that the Antichrist will come before Jesus returns, but its not the Truth and cannot save anyone from an eternity in hell. The Gospel is the Truth. And Faith in Christ, the Gospel(Truth), assures believers that they will not be deceived.

Christians cannot be deceived. They follow Christ and therefore cannot be deceived. Its the ones who "think" they are following Christ, and all the others, ALL men who have pleasure in lawlessness(unrighteousness), who will be deceived and receive the strong delusion from God. Its all ready been declared in other parts of the Bible, so we cannot just take one passage out of Thessalonians to be proof text.

 

[Who Says]

Right. Notice what they said, in comparison to the truth. They thought it was about all these 'things', but neglected to see they were caught in the bond of "iniquity", aka -Lawlessness-

The strong delusion, simply put, is the compilation of all things that go against Christ's teachings. Its not 'one' specific thing, its a mixture. We can tell this from just a simple look at the original language and the fact that there is not a definite article that precedes "delusion".

So in other words, its not "the" strong delusion, it's "strong delusion". The difference can even be seen in the word used for delusion. Its the idea of "wondering around". It has no indication of being a focus on a specific idea.

They have no "leading" and do not want any leading, so therefore God gives them up to the desires of their heart. Its a repeat of what happened in the Exodus from Egypt.

That is precisely right and it includes big time teaching things as though Christ's teachings which lead men to take the mark of the beast not realizing they are doing so.

It is the entire package of false teachings. That is what makes it such a complicated thing to get untangled from once caught up in it.

But its base is in that those who remain caught up in it do so having no real love of the truth. Outwardly they claim to love truth but if truth comes to them and challenges what they believe they hate it rather than love it.

That delusion began long before the protestant break away. It began in the early days of the Catholic Church. It has only gotten more complicated ever since. Just read "The Two Babylons" by Alexander Hislop first published in 1853. I was yet a teenager when I first read that book and will never forget it.

I do not know if I agree with all the main site that has relased this teaches as I know nothing about them, but you can get a free read of that book here:

http://www.biblebelievers.com/babylon/

 

[Nathan]

That is precisely right and it includes big time teaching things as though Christ's teachings which lead men to take the mark of the beast not realizing they are doing so.

It is the entire package of false teachings. That is what makes it such a complicated thing to get untangled from once caught up in it.

But its base is in that those who remain caught up in it do so having no real love of the truth. Outwardly they claim to love truth but if truth comes to them and challenges what they believe they hate it rather than love it.

That delusion began long before the protestant break away. It began in the early days of the Catholic Church. It has only gotten more complicated ever since. Just read "The Two Babylons" by Alexander Hislop first published in 1853. I was yet a teenager when I first read that book and will never forget it.

Right. This is why Paul states what he does after this prophetic message.

2Th 2:13-14 But we ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the firstfruits to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth. To this he called you through our gospel, so that you may obtain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

The truth is that Jesus is THE Christ, the Lord and Savior. Everything else that is taught against this is THE lie.

 

[Watchman_2]

And I told you to feel free to enlighten me as to what it DOES mean..

What good does it do to enlighten a person who God has given the spirit of delusion to?? See 2 Thes. 2:9-12.

Let me write this one more time.. slowly..

The rapture of the church of God is a scriptural fact... it is the TIMING which is often debated amongst Christians.

You can write it all you want -- but, you will always be wrong! There is no rapture of the 'church'. If belonging to a 'church' got one saved, it would be salvation by works -- not by grace.

This is your proof.. are you joking.. ?

You love the lie of 'rapture', which said word is not even in the Bible. Yet, you have the audacity to claim me to be joking while you issue 'fact'. I think that the viewers are intelligent enough to see through your disingenuousness.

OOOhhhhhhh... YOU are one of the ELECT.. and all these years I thought that the Lord Jesus Christ was the elect (chosen) of God.. you're welcome to visit my thread on the subject if you'd like.. it's in Apologetics and Theology and titled.. The Lord Jesus Christ IS God's Elect.

So you must be one of those Calvinists or close relatives if you believe that you're the elect.

Well, it is good to know that rapture is not the only subject that you are Biblically illiterate in.

 

[Eventide]

What good does it do to enlighten a person who God has given the spirit of delusion to?? See 2 Thes. 2:9-12.

I think arrogance like this is delusion in itself.. as if your opinion of the word of God on these matters is anything more than that.. an opinion..

And you haven't told me what 1 Thess 4 means.. ya know.. your opinion on what it means.. the verses which speak of the dead in Christ rising first and then those which are alive being caught up together to meet the Lord in the air..

 

[Who Says]

I think arrogance like this is delusion in itself.. as if your opinion of the word of God on these matters is anything more than that.. an opinion..

And you haven't told me what 1 Thess 4 means.. ya know.. your opinion on what it means.. the verses which speak of the dead in Christ rising first and then those which are alive being caught up together to meet the Lord in the air..

Besides, no where does it say God made them believe it. It says only that God sent it to them: 2 Thessalonians 2:11 "And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:"

Let's look up the Greek for "shall send" and "should believe".

2 Thessalonians 2:11 And <G2532> for <G1223> this <G5124> cause <G1223> God <G2316> <shall send> <G3992> them <G0846> strong <G1753> delusion <G4106>, that <G1519> they <G0846> should believe <G4100> a <G3588> lie <G5579>,


<shall send> <G3992> pempo -- pronounced: pem'-po
apparently a primary verb; to dispatch (from the subjective view or point of departure, whereas hiemi (as a stronger form of eimi) refers rather to the objective point or terminus ad quem, and 4724 denotes properly, the orderly motion involved), especially on a temporary errand; also to transmit, bestow, or wield: KJV -- send, thrust in.

So it was not forced by God else the word used would have been drawn from"hiemi"

should believe <G4100> pisteuo -- pronounced: pist-yoo'-o
from 4102; to have faith (in, upon, or with respect to, a person or thing), i.e. credit; by implication, to entrust (especially one's spiritual well-being to Christ): KJV -- believe(-r), commit (to trust), put in trust with.

So it is just as Paul said, The only reason they believe it is that they, 2 Thessalonians 2:12 "That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness."

God just permitted Satan entry to dupe them in accord to the unrighteousness of their hearts because they were imposters who outwardly claimed to love God and his righteousness but inwardly really did not.

 

[Eventide]

Besides, no where does it say God made them believe it. It says only that God sent it to them: 2 Thessalonians 2:11 "And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:"

Let's look up the Greek for "shall send" and "should believe".

2 Thessalonians 2:11 And <G2532> for <G1223> this <G5124> cause <G1223> God <G2316> <shall send> <G3992> them <G0846> strong <G1753> delusion <G4106>, that <G1519> they <G0846> should believe <G4100> a <G3588> lie <G5579>,


<shall send> <G3992> pempo -- pronounced: pem'-po
apparently a primary verb; to dispatch (from the subjective view or point of departure, whereas hiemi (as a stronger form of eimi) refers rather to the objective point or terminus ad quem, and 4724 denotes properly, the orderly motion involved), especially on a temporary errand; also to transmit, bestow, or wield: KJV -- send, thrust in.

So it was not forced by God else the word used would have been drawn from"hiemi"

should believe <G4100> pisteuo -- pronounced: pist-yoo'-o
from 4102; to have faith (in, upon, or with respect to, a person or thing), i.e. credit; by implication, to entrust (especially one's spiritual well-being to Christ): KJV -- believe(-r), commit (to trust), put in trust with.

So it is just as Paul said, The only reason they believe it is that they, 2 Thessalonians 2:12 "That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness."

God just permitted Satan entry to dupe them in accord to the unrighteousness of their hearts because they were imposters who outwardly claimed to love God and his righteousness but inwardly really did not.

Not sure what this has to do with my post.. I have no idea what you're talking about..

Would you like to insist (as watchman has) that the rapture of the church of God is not going to happen.. specifically what is written pertaining to the church of God in 1 Thess 4.. where Paul writes that the dead in CHRIST shall rise first and then we which are alive and remain will be caught up together with them to meet the Lord in the air..

As I have mentioned.. it's a scriptural certainty.. you can call it what you want.. the rapture, the catching away, or whatever words you would like.. but it's going to happen.. and what Christians generally debate is WHEN it will happen, not IF it will happen.

 

[Watchman_2]

Well, I admit, I do have some pretty thick skin...

But seeing how you are so generous to make one more attempt, I thought it was the least I could do to return the favor. :waving

Thank you for pointing out that the "all" is talking about those who will not receive the truth. I admit, I should have underlined and put in bold that phrase also.

2Th 2:10-12 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

The delusion is given to all people who receive "not the truth". You say that the "Truth" is that which tells people that Antichrist comes before Jesus. And while that is true, its not the truth. See, you seem to be one who likes the original language. And thats great because it really helps with this understanding.

There is this 'thing' called the "definite article". It is placed in front of a word when that word is used for a specific thing; in other words it references a noun. Now, your saying that the "truth" is that the Antichrist will come before Jesus. And again, this IS true, but it cannot save someone. See, "the truth" spoken of in verse 10 says that they will not receive it "that they might be saved".

I am not in disagreement with you up to this point. It is a specific Truth which Paul is talking about. It is a Truth that, if accepted, will save folks and, if rejected, will cause folks to perish.

Thereafter, is where you lose it and fall into gross error.

This is speaking of salvation.

Gross error! The only Truth presented by Paul in the context of these scriptures is the timing of the return of the Lord. Paul makes no mention of 'salvation', in the context of believing [Joh. 3:16]. A look at the word 'saved' in the manuscripts clears it up -

G4982
σώζω
sōzō
sode'-zo
From a primary word σῶς sōs̄ (contraction for the obsolete σάος saos, "safe"); to save, that is, deliver or protect (literally or figuratively): - heal, preserve, save (self), do well, be (make) whole.
​

2 Th. 2:10 has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with salvation; but, it has everything to do with preservation/deliverance of Christians [already rec'd the gift of salvation]. The context of time is the endtime. The deliverance/preservation spoken of is to see Christians through to the return of Christ.

And unless we are going to say that "believing that Antichrist is coming before Jesus" is the Gospel, then we cannot say that it will save anyone. It will 'save' them from possible deception of the Antichrist, but even that is just a possibility because Jesus Himself said this;

Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if [it were] possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

More gross error! Since the 'saved' spoken of is preservation -- not salvation, Paul is informing us that the rejection of the Truth spoke of in v. 2-4 will cause them to perish. It has nothing to do with the Gospel as the context spells out that it pertains to Christians only.

So I will whole heartedly agree that it is true that the Antichrist will come before Jesus returns, but its not the Truth and cannot save anyone from an eternity in hell. The Gospel is the Truth. And Faith in Christ, the Gospel(Truth), assures believers that they will not be deceived.

Christians cannot be deceived. They follow Christ and therefore cannot be deceived.

More gross error! If Christians cannot be deceived, then it would be unnecessary for Christ to shorten the tribulation [as you quoted] time, which he did do. See Mat. 7:21-23. Many good Christians get deceived and worship Satan. It is the sole purpose for Satan's tribulation -- to test Christians. Christians are the only ones at risk for losing their salvation. There is no reason to test non-Christians with Satan's deception -- they are already not going to make the first resurrection.

Its the ones who "think" they are following Christ,

Well, if you are trying to distinguish between true Christians [who know that the Antichrist comes first] from the fake [rapture] Christians [who think that Christ returns first], then I would agree. That is what 2 Th. 2 is all about -- separating Christians in the know from the fake ones that love the lie of rapture.

and all the others, ALL men who have pleasure in lawlessness(unrighteousness), who will be deceived and receive the strong delusion from God. Its all ready been declared in other parts of the Bible, so we cannot just take one passage out of Thessalonians to be proof text.

More gross error! 2 Th. 2 has nothing whatsoever to do with anyone other than Christians and pleasure in lawlessness. You contradict yourself. First, you [errantly] say it is 'salvation'. Then, you end by claiming it is fake christians taking pleasure in unrighteousness.

Now, I have proved you in gross error once again. Will it ever penetrate your brain??

 

[Who Says]

Not sure what this has to do with my post.. I have no idea what you're talking about..

Would you like to insist (as watchman has) that the rapture of the church of God is not going to happen.. specifically what is written pertaining to the church of God in 1 Thess 4.. where Paul writes that the dead in CHRIST shall rise first and then we which are alive and remain will be caught up together with them to meet the Lord in the air..

As I have mentioned.. it's a scriptural certainty.. you can call it what you want.. the rapture, the catching away, or whatever words you would like.. but it's going to happen.. and what Christians generally debate is WHEN it will happen, not IF it will happen.

It is just points that ought to not be missed if one can really say they have thoroughly investigated the text.

But as to whether I believe in the rapture? Not in the way you do. I have deeply investigated the different parts and came to the conclusion that the being caught away to meet the Loed in the air has an entirely different meaning than that you attach to it. I do not see it as having anything to do with the resurrection that takes place other than that the resurrection is so that all will be there to begin their rule in Christ's kingdom over this earth at that time.

You have part of it right. Just not the part you more specifically call the rapture.

I have to leave for now or I would explain more what that caught away to meet the Lord in the air is and discuss the finer points that allow many to misunderstand it.

So until later, may God always be able to be with the spirit we show.

 

[Watchman_2]

I think arrogance like this is delusion in itself.. as if your opinion of the word of God on these matters is anything more than that.. an opinion..

I would agree that you are quite arrogant. To come here and claim that the rapture of the church is biblical fact, when the word 'rapture' does not exist in the Bible manuscripts, does take a certain degree of arrogance on your part.

It is always the argument of the naysayer to claim everything is just 'opinion'. That is part of the delusion that you have received. Your position is akin to claiming that God is the author of confusion, as everything therein His Word is never fact -- but, just all a bunch of opinion.

And you haven't told me what 1 Thess 4 means.. ya know.. your opinion on what it means.. the verses which speak of the dead in Christ rising first and then those which are alive being caught up together to meet the Lord in the air..

Based upon your condescending attitude ["ya know.. your opinion on what it means.."], I can already discern that you have been given the spirit of delusion by God. So, I am quite certain that you have already been taught the Truth regarding rapture, and you rejected it.

What good would it do to teach you again?? It is sinful to cast pearls before swine [Mat. 7:6]. So, I would first need a genuine argument from you as to your position regarding 1 Thes. 4:16-17. Then, I can prove you in error.

 

[Eventide]

It is just points that ought to not be missed if one can really say they have thoroughly investigated the text.

I have an opinion of what the text speaks to, just as you do, and just as any other person who reads it does.. if you or anyone else here is deluded into believing that their opinion alone rules the day.. then yeah, it's a pointless waste of time... although this type of high attitude is not that uncommon amongst Christians.. thinking that what they happen to believe is 'precisely' what the living and powerful word of God means.

But as to whether I believe in the rapture? Not in the way you do. I have deeply investigated the different parts and came to the conclusion that the being caught away to meet the Loed in the air has an entirely different meaning than that you attach to it.

Well then as stated to watchman.. PLEASE feel free to explain what YOU think that the the RISING of the DEAD in CHRIST means and then those who are ALIVE and REMAIN being caught up together with them to meet the LORD in the AIR.

I do not see it as having anything to do with the resurrection that takes place other than that the resurrection is so that all will be there to begin their rule in Christ's kingdom over this earth at that time.

So you agree that it is literally a resurrection of the dead in Christ.. I hope so, because that's what it says.

You have part of it right. Just not the part you more specifically call the rapture.

How would you know.. are YOU the standard of what is RIGHT... or is it your interpretation of the bible that is always RIGHT...?

I have to leave for now or I would explain more what that caught away to meet the Lord in the air is and discuss the finer points that allow many to misunderstand it.

So until later, may God always be able to be with the spirit we show.

Well I'm certainly looking forward to what your opinion is on those verses which speak of the dead in Christ rising first and being caught up together with those who are alive and remain.

 

[Eventide]

I would agree that you are quite arrogant. .

And yet you're the one who is deluded into believing that your opinion can't be wrong.. good luck with that.

 

[Sinthesis]

It appears to me that a strong delusion is believing the Bible is about you rather than for you. Though marginal and not affecting salvation, this delusion does spark a whole bunch of contention among Christians.:yes

Pro 13:10 - Only by pride cometh contention: but with the well advised [is] wisdom.​