What is the Strong Delusion? Extraterrestrial Designers seeded belief in God

[Nathan]

Re: Rebekah

Well that portion of scripture isn't there to tell us WHERE Christ and His bride are married, it's more along the lines of how the woman was taken from the man etc.. isn't that obvious..?

Now the story of Rebekah clearly tells us that Rebekah was taken to where Isaac was and that Isaac took her into his mothers tent.. and so we know that Isaac is a picture of Christ and we also know where Christ is.. and we know that the mother of us all is the Jerusalem which is above.

This makes sense to me because we also know that our citizenship is in heaven..

But if your going to use that story as an illustration, you have to use all of it.

The fact is that Rebekah was not taken away blindly. The servant came to her and even stayed with them, and was going to depart and asked her to come along.

No where do you find that she was taken away in a sudden sweeping.

Its a picture of us being joined with Christ. But has no overtones of us being gathered to Him as far as timing of the tribulation is concerned. The story does not speak of Judgement or anything.

If you want proof text, then we should use the proof text Jesus used Himself. The story of Noah.

 

[Eventide]

Re: Rebekah

But if your going to use that story as an illustration, you have to use all of it.

Of course !

The fact is that Rebekah was not taken away blindly. The servant came to her and even stayed with them, and was going to depart and asked her to come along.

No where do you find that she was taken away in a sudden sweeping.

Are you telling me that her being taken to WHERE Isaac was doesn't matter..? How about Isaac bringing her into his Mother's tent.. what do you suppose that speaks to ?

Its a picture of us being joined with Christ. But has no overtones of us being gathered to Him as far as timing of the tribulation is concerned. The story does not speak of Judgement or anything.

I didn't say that it does.. although what it does say is that the woman was brought to WHERE Isaac was and that he met her and then she was taken into his Mother's tent..

So where's Christ now ?

If you want proof text, then we should use the proof text Jesus used Himself. The story of Noah.

Another great story which shows one family being brought through the great judgment of God.. who does that remind you of... ?

There is also the precedent of Enoch being taken out before the judgment.. and we read that Enoch walked with God and that he pleased God and that God translated him..

Did you know that this is exactly how Paul begins the chapter in 1st Thess 4.. the very same chapter which speaks of the the church of God meeting the Lord in the air.. ?

Furthermore then we beseech you, brethren, and exhort you by the Lord Jesus, that as ye have received of us how ye ought to walk and to please God, so ye would abound more and more.

Coincidence ?

 

[Eventide]

Rebekah

Please let me add that I believe that this story in Genesis describes the entire Christian life from beginning to end.. ie, Rebekah met the Servant at the WELL... and this of course reminds me of the limitless well of the word of God which wells up within the Christian.. and we also see that the Servant testifies of His Masters Son.. and that He had inherited all things of His Father.

It's mind boggling how the word of God is living and powerful in the simplest of ways... by telling stories. Thematic study of the scriptures is limitless in its ability to tell the story over and over again.. I've been reading this same story for years and it's always real because it describes the reality of the Christian life.. Christians have been sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise which is the earnest of our inheritance in Christ unto the praise of His glory !

We don't see Him yet, but we have heard all about Him.. for the Spirit of God testifies of Him in all things to His infinite and everlasting glory.

All praise and glory be to the Lord Jesus Christ, the one true God who has told us the end from the beginning.. over and over again in His living and powerful word.

 

[Nathan]

Re: Rebekah

Are you telling me that her being taken to WHERE Isaac was doesn't matter..? How about Isaac bringing her into his Mother's tent.. what do you suppose that speaks to ?

I didn't say that it does.. although what it does say is that the woman was brought to WHERE Isaac was and that he met her and then she was taken into his Mother's tent..

So where's Christ now ?


Another great story which shows one family being brought through the great judgment of God.. who does that remind you of... ?

There is also the precedent of Enoch being taken out before the judgment.. and we read that Enoch walked with God and that he pleased God and that God translated him..

Did you know that this is exactly how Paul begins the chapter in 1st Thess 4.. the very same chapter which speaks of the the church of God meeting the Lord in the air.. ?

Furthermore then we beseech you, brethren, and exhort you by the Lord Jesus, that as ye have received of us how ye ought to walk and to please God, so ye would abound more and more.

Coincidence ?

Please do not put words into my mouth(on the page) that I did not say. I never said it did not matter that she was taken to Isaac. I fully believe that what Paul says about us being gathered to Christ is true. We will go to be with the Lord. Pretty simple. Christ is in heaven and we will be caught up and go to be with Him there.

Its not just "another" great story, its the one Jesus the Christ uses for an example. He does not use the story of Rebekah, or Enoch, or any other. He uses the story of Noah as what WE should be looking at in discerning the end times. If we cannot see that as plain black and white letters, then all we are doing is trying to pull out stories and make applications ourselves with them.

Yes, Enoch pleased God and God took him. Did Noah not please God?

Gen 6:8 But Noah found favor in the eyes of the LORD.

favor - chen
1) favour, grace, charm
a) favour, grace, elegance
b) favour, acceptance

So whats the difference? Who knows for sure, but the fact is that Christ uses Noah's story as an example and not the others. The Church has found favor with God also.

Eph 2:5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),

The idea that the Enoch is an example of the Church is just not Biblical. You will not find it taught in the NT. But what you will find taught is that Noah's faith is the EXACT faith that is set forth as an example for the Church. Its wise to stay within the teaching of Christ and not look elsewhere for learning.

Mat 24:37 "But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.

Find where any other examples are said to be this way.

1Pe 3:18-21 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, ho formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water.

There is also an antitype which now saves us--baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, angels and authorities and powers having been made subject to Him.

Please tell me where the NT teaches the story of Rebekah or Enoch being an "antitype" of the end times or even the gathering of us together with Him.

 

[Nathan]

Re: Rebekah

Please let me add that I believe that this story in Genesis describes the entire Christian life from beginning to end.. ie, Rebekah met the Servant at the WELL... and this of course reminds me of the limitless well of the word of God which wells up within the Christian.. and we also see that the Servant testifies of His Masters Son.. and that He had inherited all things of His Father.

It's mind boggling how the word of God is living and powerful in the simplest of ways... by telling stories. Thematic study of the scriptures is limitless in its ability to tell the story over and over again.. I've been reading this same story for years and it's always real because it describes the reality of the Christian life.. Christians have been sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise which is the earnest of our inheritance in Christ unto the praise of His glory !

We don't see Him yet, but we have heard all about Him.. for the Spirit of God testifies of Him in all things to His infinite and everlasting glory.

All praise and glory be to the Lord Jesus Christ, the one true God who has told us the end from the beginning.. over and over again in His living and powerful word.

But thats just it. It DOES describe the Christian life. From beginning to end. But it does NOT describe the end anymore than saying we are united with Him.

Did Rebekah and the servant all of a sudden appear at Isaacs tent, or was their a journey ahead of them?

We can see the beauty of this story just like the one of Ruth, and Esther, and the Song of Solomon; They all illustrate the beauty of the Christian united with Christ. But Christ tells us of one story in particular that deals with the end times. Why do we need to go outside that teaching to find something to 'prove' a point? If the point can be proven, then would it not be able to be done within that story itself?

 

[Nathan]

Prove, from the story given to us by Christ, that the Church will be taken out before the time of great tribulation comes.

 

[Sam21]

Prove, from the story given to us by Christ, that the Church will be taken out before the time of great tribulation comes.

This is an example of what end-time deception really is, a person rejects the clear in context story given by Jesus Himself about His return to gather the church and then goes rooting around somewhere else to try to wrestle a story more to his liking. As Nathan said, why not just believe the story told by Jesus?

 

[Eventide]

Re: Rebekah

But thats just it. It DOES describe the Christian life. From beginning to end. But it does NOT describe the end anymore than saying we are united with Him.

Did Rebekah and the servant all of a sudden appear at Isaacs tent, or was their a journey ahead of them?

We can see the beauty of this story just like the one of Ruth, and Esther, and the Song of Solomon; They all illustrate the beauty of the Christian united with Christ. But Christ tells us of one story in particular that deals with the end times. Why do we need to go outside that teaching to find something to 'prove' a point? If the point can be proven, then would it not be able to be done within that story itself?

I just mentioned the biblical fact that Enoch was taken before the judgment of God described in Genesis.. and how that he walked with God and pleased God.. should we ignore that ?

Then we see one family being taken through that judgment.. and the scriptures overwhelmingly testify that this is JACOB.. Israel.. the time of JACOB's trouble.. the time of TESTING for the whole world..

The church of God is the Lord's WIFE.. she has ALREADY believed God's testimony concerning the Lord Jesus Christ and she HAS already crucified the flesh with its affections and lusts.. she doesn't need to be TESTED by God.. she has already laid down her life and is even considered DEAD in accordance with God's word.. ie, set our affections on things above and not on the things of the earth for ye are dead and YOUR LIFE is HID IN CHRIST with God.. when HE appears we shall appear WITH HIM..

That's my .02

The time of the end deals with ISRAEL.. and their being led to repentance and restoration IN CHRIST.. Rev 12 is remarkable in showing us the woman being with CHILD and her being brought through the tribulation and provided for in the wilderness.. Dan 12 aligns perfectly in telling us that Michael will stand up for Daniel's people (Israelites) in the time of the end..

Without making a distinction between the Israel of God and the church of God, there can be nothing but confusion over the discussion of end time events.. because Israel is an earthly entity with earthly ordinances and the church of God is a heavenly entity with heavenly citizenship... and right now God is calling all out of this present evil world because it is passing away.. all evil will be judged and when that angel sounds.. the kingdoms of this world shall become the kingdoms of the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[Eventide]

A Marriage made in HEAVEN...

Prove, from the story given to us by Christ, that the Church will be taken out before the time of great tribulation comes.

The story doesn't prove the timing.. but it certainly proves the PLACE.. and that's where Isaac was.

Now, add this to Rev 19 and we clearly are told that the there is a multitude IN HEAVEN and that the marriage of the Lamb has come, and that His bride has made herself ready.. we know that Christ will present the church of God to Himself as a glorious church without spot or wrinkle or any such thing.. and she was granted to be adorned in fine linen clean and white..

Then we're told that Christ comes and that those who are FOLLOWING Him are adorned in fine linen..

What sequence would you place on that..?

Seriously..?

 

[Eventide]

C O N T E X T ...

Its not just "another" great story, its the one Jesus the Christ uses for an example. He does not use the story of Rebekah, or Enoch, or any other. He uses the story of Noah as what WE should be looking at in discerning the end times. If we cannot see that as plain black and white letters, then all we are doing is trying to pull out stories and make applications ourselves with them.

And Matthew 24 aligns perfectly with ISRAEL.. its entire context is ISRAEL.. the church did not yet exist when this was taught to His disciples.. Look at what Matt 24 speaks of.. those who be in JUDAEA... that it not take place on the SABBATH day...

Clearly ISRAEL in its context.. and this is perhaps the most important distinction that is missed and often ignored.. the mystery concerning the nation of Israel and how that THEY are blinded in part until the fulness of the GENTILES be come in..

 

[Nathan]

Re: Rebekah

I just mentioned the biblical fact that Enoch was taken before the judgment of God described in Genesis.. and how that he walked with God and pleased God.. should we ignore that ?

Then we see one family being taken through that judgment.. and the scriptures overwhelmingly testify that this is JACOB.. Israel.. the time of JACOB's trouble.. the time of TESTING for the whole world..

The church of God is the Lord's WIFE.. she has ALREADY believed God's testimony concerning the Lord Jesus Christ and she HAS already crucified the flesh with its affections and lusts.. she doesn't need to be TESTED by God.. she has already laid down her life and is even considered DEAD in accordance with God's word.. ie, set our affections on things above and not on the things of the earth for ye are dead and YOUR LIFE is HID IN CHRIST with God.. when HE appears we shall appear WITH HIM..

That's my .02

The time of the end deals with ISRAEL.. and their being led to repentance and restoration IN CHRIST.. Rev 12 is remarkable in showing us the woman being with CHILD and her being brought through the tribulation and provided for in the wilderness.. Dan 12 aligns perfectly in telling us that Michael will stand up for Daniel's people (Israelites) in the time of the end..

Without making a distinction between the Israel of God and the church of God, there can be nothing but confusion over the discussion of end time events.. because Israel is an earthly entity with earthly ordinances and the church of God is a heavenly entity with heavenly citizenship... and right now God is calling all out of this present evil world because it is passing away.. all evil will be judged and when that angel sounds.. the kingdoms of this world shall become the kingdoms of the Lord Jesus Christ.

No, we should not ignore Enoch. But Enoch is not who Christ likened the end times to. It was Noah. Israel was the Lords wife. Yet God tested her.

If you do not understand that Paul clearly states that we who are in Christ are spiritual Israel, then I cannot help you understand that Noah's story is the one to dig into.

 

[Nathan]

Re: C O N T E X T ...

And Matthew 24 aligns perfectly with ISRAEL.. its entire context is ISRAEL.. the church did not yet exist when this was taught to His disciples.. Look at what Matt 24 speaks of.. those who be in JUDAEA... that it not take place on the SABBATH day...

Clearly ISRAEL in its context.. and this is perhaps the most important distinction that is missed and often ignored.. the mystery concerning the nation of Israel and how that THEY are blinded in part until the fulness of the GENTILES be come in..

Gentiles come into what? Israel. Again, I am sorry, but you would have to understand the full brevity of what Paul states in Romans.

And the only way to do that is to want to know. But you seem to be set in your belief so I am not going to take time that could be used for other purposes. If you want to see it, I would be more than happy to go through it. But this is not the thread for it.

Just keep in mind that Noah is the one Christ talks about, not the others. Maybe in due time you will see.

 

[Sam21]

Re: C O N T E X T ...

And Matthew 24 aligns perfectly with ISRAEL.. its entire context is ISRAEL.. the church did not yet exist when this was taught to His disciples.. Look at what Matt 24 speaks of.. those who be in JUDAEA... that it not take place on the SABBATH day...

Clearly ISRAEL in its context.. and this is perhaps the most important distinction that is missed and often ignored.. the mystery concerning the nation of Israel and how that THEY are blinded in part until the fulness of the GENTILES be come in..

Clearly the church was the context of Matt 24, Jesus said His return was to gather the "elect", when Jesus spoke those words the elect were those who became the church,the elect were the apostles and others who believed in Jesus Christ. The church contained the elect of Israel and later the elect of the gentiles. Jesus was very specific that His return was for THE APOSTLES, the apostles have to represent the church because they were the pillars of the church.

 

[Eventide]

This is an example of what end-time deception really is, a person rejects the clear in context story given by Jesus Himself about His return to gather the church and then goes rooting around somewhere else to try to wrestle a story more to his liking. As Nathan said, why not just believe the story told by Jesus?

I do believe the story told by the Lord to His disciples.. I simply do not apply it contextually to the church of God.. it's not about the church of God.. it's about Israel..

Your assumption here is that people would like to dodge the truth to suit their beliefs, when in reality it's a matter of interpreting the word of God differently. If you'd like to persist in believing that Matt 24 is about the church of God then that's fine, although I wanted to shed a more 'actual' reason for my believing what I do.

That doesn't mean that I'm right in my interpretation, but rather that we do in fact interpret Matthew 24 differently.

 

[Nathan]

Re: C O N T E X T ...

And Matthew 24 aligns perfectly with ISRAEL.. its entire context is ISRAEL.. the church did not yet exist when this was taught to His disciples.. Look at what Matt 24 speaks of.. those who be in JUDAEA... that it not take place on the SABBATH day...

Clearly ISRAEL in its context.. and this is perhaps the most important distinction that is missed and often ignored.. the mystery concerning the nation of Israel and how that THEY are blinded in part until the fulness of the GENTILES be come in..

The "Church" is simply ones that are called out. By who? By God. Why? Because that is how He has dealt with mankind from the beginning. To say that they are under "different" leadership is to deny that Jesus, the Christ, was not from the beginning and the very one who lead the first children of Israel in the wilderness.

What people have done is say that Jesus is the Christ, but only because He was appointed to be it at His birth or baptism. This denies the fact that He is the same yesterday, today, and forever.

We would be wise to listen to EVERY thing that the Lord spoke about and not try to place it into our limited man made categories/dispensations, of which Jesus nor any of the disciples ever spoke of.

 

[Eventide]

The God of Abraham, Isaac, and JACOB.. in that order..

If you do not understand that Paul clearly states that we who are in Christ are spiritual Israel, then I cannot help you understand that Noah's story is the one to dig into.

There's no such thing as 'spiritual Israel' in scripture. There is the Israel of God and there is the church of God.

Paul nowhere tells Christians that they are Israelites.. that's why we're called CHRISTians.. because we're already IN CHRIST.. Israel is not yet IN CHRIST.. but they will be in the end.. when the Lord comes from Sion and turns ungodliness from JACOB.. remember Jacob.. the one who wrestled with God all night and in the morning of that DAY the Sun rose upon him..

Paul tells us that the night is far spent and that the DAY is at hand.. and it will come suddenly, as travail upon a WOMAN with CHILD.. yep.. that's Israel.. being born again and helped with the time of trouble which shall come upon the whole world.

There's another story in Genesis about Joseph.. how he was hated by his brethren and yet loved by his father (Jacob).. how that his brethren sold him to the Gentiles for 20 pieces of silver and deceived his father into believing that he was dead.. but he wasn't of course.. he went from the pit to the prison to the throne.. was given a Gentile wife... and then many years later his brethren were led to him for sustenance.. they were led to repentance.. and in the end JACOB learned that the son of his old age was alive and ruler over all..

Another story which has told the story before it ever came to pass..

 

[Sam21]

Sigh! If folks would only use that thinking machine called the brain. If Jesus teaching to the apostles of His return was not for the church because the day of Pentacost had not yet come, then of course EVERYTHING that Jesus taught the apostles before the day of Pentacost would not be for the church,that would include all the teaching of Jesus, including the teaching on being born again. The pre-trib position is without intelligent argument IF we really look at it.

 

[Eventide]

Sigh! If folks would only use that thinking machine called the brain.

I agree, said the mirror..

 

[Hitch]

Re: The God of Abraham, Isaac, and JACOB.. in that order..

There's no such thing as 'spiritual Israel' in scripture. There is the Israel of God and there is the church of God.

Paul nowhere tells Christians that they are Israelites.. that's why we're called CHRISTians.. because we're already IN CHRIST.. Israel is not yet IN CHRIST.. but they will be in the end.. when the Lord comes from Sion and turns ungodliness from JACOB.. remember Jacob.. the one who wrestled with God all night and in the morning of that DAY the Sun rose upon him..

Paul tells us that the night is far spent and that the DAY is at hand.. and it will come suddenly, as travail upon a WOMAN with CHILD.. yep.. that's Israel.. being born again and helped with the time of trouble which shall come upon the whole world.

There's another story in Genesis about Joseph.. how he was hated by his brethren and yet loved by his father (Jacob).. how that his brethren sold him to the Gentiles for 20 pieces of silver and deceived his father into believing that he was dead.. but he wasn't of course.. he went from the pit to the prison to the throne.. was given a Gentile wife... and then many years later his brethren were led to him for sustenance.. they were led to repentance.. and in the end JACOB learned that the son of his old age was alive and ruler over all..

Another story which has told the story before it ever came to pass..

the children of God R 8;16
household of God E 2;19
Abe's seed G 3;7
children of the promise G 4;28
elect of God Col 3;12
heirs of God R 8;17
heirs according to the promise G 3;29
the temple of God I Cor 3;16
the circumcision Ph 3;3


LMBO

 

[Nathan]

Sigh! If folks would only use that thinking machine called the brain. If Jesus teaching to the apostles of His return was not for the church because the day of Pentacost had not yet come, then of course EVERYTHING that Jesus taught the apostles before the day of Pentacost would not be for the church,that would include all the teaching of Jesus, including the teaching on being born again. The pre-trib position is without intelligent argument IF we really look at it.

When it becomes fruitless its sad. But all we can do is bear witness of that which is being done. No matter how hard we try, we cannot produce the fruit ourselves. Only Christ does that through us.