What is the Strong Delusion? Extraterrestrial Designers seeded belief in God

[mcgyver]

And yet you're the one who is deluded into believing that your opinion can't be wrong.. good luck with that.

+1 Too funny!!!

 

[Who Says]

I have an opinion of what the text speaks to, just as you do, and just as any other person who reads it does.. if you or anyone else here is deluded into believing that their opinion alone rules the day.. then yeah, it's a pointless waste of time... although this type of high attitude is not that uncommon amongst Christians.. thinking that what they happen to believe is 'precisely' what the living and powerful word of God means.



Well then as stated to watchman.. PLEASE feel free to explain what YOU think that the the RISING of the DEAD in CHRIST means and then those who are ALIVE and REMAIN being caught up together with them to meet the LORD in the AIR.



So you agree that it is literally a resurrection of the dead in Christ.. I hope so, because that's what it says.



How would you know.. are YOU the standard of what is RIGHT... or is it your interpretation of the bible that is always RIGHT...?



Well I'm certainly looking forward to what your opinion is on those verses which speak of the dead in Christ rising first and being caught up together with those who are alive and remain.

What's the old expression, A man without an opinion is a man who does not know what he believes?

I don't mind your cantankerousness. I remember my father fondly and mostly because of his cantankerousness. I am an older man now and sure miss him. I did not know at that time how to properly appreciate him. So please do not ever think I am ridiculing you.

Can I ask you if you believe (or, what your opinion is) about whether Adam would have ever went to heaven to live if he remained sinnless?

 

[warhorse]

Re: Be not ignorant of this one thing..

It's also important to understand that the Day of the Lord, the Day of Jesus Christ.. is a thousand years.. it's His rest and all those who trust in the promises of God will enter into that rest.. when He is King over all the earth in that Day..

Please show scripture to support that position. The bible says that a day with the lord is as a thousand years but it does not say that the day of the lord is a thousand years , in fact the word day is the same as those used in genesis to denote a period of nightime followed by a period of daytime. We call them weekdays.

 

[warhorse]

Re: Rebekah

Please let me add that I believe that this story in Genesis describes the entire Christian life from beginning to end.. ie, Rebekah met the Servant at the WELL... and this of course reminds me of the limitless well of the word of God which wells up within the Christian.. and we also see that the Servant testifies of His Masters Son.. and that He had inherited all things of His Father.

It's mind boggling how the word of God is living and powerful in the simplest of ways... by telling stories. Thematic study of the scriptures is limitless in its ability to tell the story over and over again.. I've been reading this same story for years and it's always real because it describes the reality of the Christian life.. Christians have been sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise which is the earnest of our inheritance in Christ unto the praise of His glory !

We don't see Him yet, but we have heard all about Him.. for the Spirit of God testifies of Him in all things to His infinite and everlasting glory.

All praise and glory be to the Lord Jesus Christ, the one true God who has told us the end from the beginning.. over and over again in His living and powerful word.

We dont determine doctrine by simularities, or forshadowing of events. We determine it by direct statements of scripture. Forshadowing is only used with clearly stated doctrine.

 

[warhorse]

Re: Rebekah

I just mentioned the biblical fact that Enoch was taken before the judgment of God described in Genesis.. and how that he walked with God and pleased God.. should we ignore that ?

Then we see one family being taken through that judgment.. and the scriptures overwhelmingly testify that this is JACOB.. Israel.. the time of JACOB's trouble.. the time of TESTING for the whole world..

The church of God is the Lord's WIFE.. she has ALREADY believed God's testimony concerning the Lord Jesus Christ and she HAS already crucified the flesh with its affections and lusts.. she doesn't need to be TESTED by God.. she has already laid down her life and is even considered DEAD in accordance with God's word.. ie, set our affections on things above and not on the things of the earth for ye are dead and YOUR LIFE is HID IN CHRIST with God.. when HE appears we shall appear WITH HIM..

That's my .02

The time of the end deals with ISRAEL.. and their being led to repentance and restoration IN CHRIST.. Rev 12 is remarkable in showing us the woman being with CHILD and her being brought through the tribulation and provided for in the wilderness.. Dan 12 aligns perfectly in telling us that Michael will stand up for Daniel's people (Israelites) in the time of the end..

Without making a distinction between the Israel of God and the church of God, there can be nothing but confusion over the discussion of end time events.. because Israel is an earthly entity with earthly ordinances and the church of God is a heavenly entity with heavenly citizenship... and right now God is calling all out of this present evil world because it is passing away.. all evil will be judged and when that angel sounds.. the kingdoms of this world shall become the kingdoms of the Lord Jesus Christ.

If there is any forshadowing of events to come it would be from the exodus story. Where were the jews when god removed his peaple from egypt during the plauges

 

[Eventide]

Can I ask you if you believe (or, what your opinion is) about whether Adam would have ever went to heaven to live if he remained sinnless?

Why, you have no opinion on the 1 Thess 4 portion which we (I) was speaking about.. ? You told me that you had a different opinion of them and I would actually be interested in hearing what you have to say..

 

[Watchman_2]

And yet you're the one who is deluded into believing that your opinion can't be wrong.. good luck with that.

You are the one that thinks that all Bible is mere opinion -- I don't. There would be no reason for God to give the Books of the Bible to us if He did not intend for us to understand it.

You entered the debate with the [false] contention that the rapture of the church is bible fact and that the only question is the timing thereof. Neither of these positions can you support. I already pointed out the arrogancy of your first position in consideration that there is no word 'rapture' anywhere in the Bible manuscripts. And, as discussed herein this topic [with Nathan], there is no question as to the timing of the Lord's return [2 Thes. 2:2-4].

Those are FACTS -- not opinion.

 

[jasoncran]

eventide, watchman2 isnt a calvinist at all.

 

[Eventide]

You are the one that thinks that all Bible is mere opinion -- I don't. There would be no reason for God to give the Books of the Bible to us if He did not intend for us to understand it.

I didn't say that bible is opinion, it is truth... it is our interpretation of it which is opinion... unless of course you are deluded into thinking that you know everything there is to know with respect to the living and powerful word of God.

You entered the debate with the [false] contention that the rapture of the church is bible fact and that the only question is the timing thereof. Neither of these positions can you support. I already pointed out the arrogancy of your first position in consideration that there is no word 'rapture' anywhere in the Bible manuscripts. And, as discussed herein this topic [with Nathan], there is no question as to the timing of the Lord's return [2 Thes. 2:2-4].

Those are FACTS -- not opinion.

I know, excuse me for thinking that 99.9% of Christendom, when talking about the rapture of the church, associates it with 1 Thess 4 scripture.. evidently you have no clue about that.

Now, are you going to tell us what your opinion is on 1 Thess 4 ?

 

[Eventide]

eventide, watchman2 isnt a calvinist at all.

Thanks for the tip.. I figured that most people who talk about how they're the elect.. are Calvinists..

 

[Nathan]

Now, I have proved you in gross error once again. Will it ever penetrate your brain??

You have only proved that you believe I am in "gross" error. You have only proved that you sit in judgement of my belief. That has penetrated my 'brain', and others alike.

 

[Nathan]

More gross error! If Christians cannot be deceived, then it would be unnecessary for Christ to shorten the tribulation [as you quoted] time, which he did do. See Mat. 7:21-23. Many good Christians get deceived and worship Satan. It is the sole purpose for Satan's tribulation -- to test Christians. Christians are the only ones at risk for losing their salvation. There is no reason to test non-Christians with Satan's deception -- they are already not going to make the first resurrection.

If you would take time, read what I write in context, and understand what words actually mean instead of implied meaning; then you would see that the Bible clearly states that Christians[those who follow Christ/led by the Spirit] cannot be deceived. The only time a Christian is deceived is when they "think" they are a Christian, not when they are one.

Hbr 3:12 Take care, brothers, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away from the living God.

2Pe 2:21 For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them.

When we are following, then we are being led. And Christ will NEVER lead us astray. It is only when we LEAVE Christ, and go after other things, that we are deceived. But guess what. If you leave Christ you are no longer a Christian; you are no longer following Christ.

People are not going to leave Christ over simple timing of their being caught up with Him, this is not stated elsewhere in the Bible. However, the Bible CLEARLY states that people leave Christ because of sinful desires, and this is stated numerous times throughout the Bible.

What you have done is 'camped out' in this one passage without taking into account of the whole of the Bible. This is the same way people go into the exact false reasoning that you and I both see. When you do not look at the Bible as a whole, you can be led to believe something that is not 'accurate'. It might be truthful, but its not THE TRUTH.

 

[Who Says]

Why, you have no opinion on the 1 Thess 4 portion which we (I) was speaking about.. ? You told me that you had a different opinion of them and I would actually be interested in hearing what you have to say..

Sorry, I have been involved in other things for a bit.

I agree with you that the resurrection is a bodily resurrection. But, the "caught away to meet the lord in the air" refers merely to their beginning to rule in kingdom power with Christ. I will give you more on that in a sec.

I agree with you that the thousand years is the actual rest as it compares to the Israelites when they first entered the promised land from the wilderness and were given rest from their enemies.

When we believe in a thousand year reign some call us Millennialists, others call us Preterists. Never-the-less, I say let them alone and we will all find out soon enough (not that we do not already know but that they do not). Any of us will only find out ONLY if we do not let our differences show up in us that our lack of love for each other is revealing to God a love for injurious things and a prideful refusal to repent such things. Our individual spirits act as the lamp of God in that by the spirit we manifest, God is able to accurately see what goes on in our hearts so that nothing is hidden from him. Proverbs 20:27 "The spirit of man is the candle of the LORD, searching all the inward parts of the belly."
(1 Corinthians 11:19 "For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you."
A heresy is nothing more that man's rallied around ideas born in lack of understanding which they hold too tightly in their pride, thus unwittingly allowing Satan to use these things to further his evil end of dividing and conquering the true followers of Christ.)

And I still have not elaborated on the "caught away to meet the Lord in the air" part, have I.

I will.

 

[Eventide]

Sorry, I have been involved in other things for a bit.

No need to be sorry, I'm in no rush.. my comment was more along the lines of why are you asking me about Adam when you haven't even told me what you think about 1 Thess 4..

I agree with you that the resurrection is a bodily resurrection. But, the "caught away to meet the lord in the air" refers merely to their beginning to rule in kingdom power with Christ. I will give you more on that in a sec.

Yes, I'm looking forward to hearing what you think about this..

I agree with you that the thousand years is the actual rest as it compares to the Israelites when they first entered the promised land from the wilderness and were given rest from their enemies.

OK so you believe that Rev 20 speaks of a literal thousand year reign of Christ on earth.. right..?

When we believe in a thousand year reign some call us Millennialists, others call us Preterists. Never-the-less, I say let them alone and we will all find out soon enough (not that we do not already know but that they do not). Any of us will only find out ONLY if we do not let our differences show up in us that our lack of love for each other is revealing to God a love for injurious things and a prideful refusal to repent such things. Our individual spirits act as the lamp of God in that by the spirit we manifest, God is able to accurately see what goes on in our hearts so that nothing is hidden from him. Proverbs 20:27 "The spirit of man is the candle of the LORD, searching all the inward parts of the belly."
(1 Corinthians 11:19 "For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you."
A heresy is nothing more that man's rallied around ideas born in lack of understanding which they hold too tightly in their pride, thus unwittingly allowing Satan to use these things to further his evil end of dividing and conquering the true followers of Christ.)

Not sure why you're telling me this Who Says.. imo you're the one who speaks as if your opinion can't be wrong. Saying things like I'm right about this but not about that.. wouldn't it be easier if you just shared your opinion on the matter with the understanding that it's just that.. ? ?

Surely you don't believe that what you happen to believe about the living and powerful word of God (especially end time events) is precisely right and isn't subject to reproof... or do you ?

And I still have not elaborated on the "caught away to meet the Lord in the air" part, have I.

I will.

Nope, still haven't.. neither has watchman.. but I am interested in HOW people look at these verses.. concerning the dead in Christ rising first and then those who are alive and remaining being caught up together to meet the LORD in the air.

 

[Who Says]

No need to be sorry, I'm in no rush.. my comment was more along the lines of why are you asking me about Adam when you haven't even told me what you think about 1 Thess 4..



Yes, I'm looking forward to hearing what you think about this..



OK so you believe that Rev 20 speaks of a literal thousand year reign of Christ on earth.. right..?



Not sure why you're telling me this Who Says.. imo you're the one who speaks as if your opinion can't be wrong. Saying things like I'm right about this but not about that.. wouldn't it be easier if you just shared your opinion on the matter with the understanding that it's just that.. ? ?

Surely you don't believe that what you happen to believe about the living and powerful word of God (especially end time events) is precisely right and isn't subject to reproof... or do you ?



Nope, still haven't.. neither has watchman.. but I am interested in HOW people look at these verses.. concerning the dead in Christ rising first and then those who are alive and remaining being caught up together to meet the LORD in the air.

You ask: "Surely you don't believe that what you happen to believe about the living and powerful word of God (especially end time events) is precisely right and isn't subject to reproof... or do you ? "

What is the value in that comment?

Speaking of the groundwork that was presently laid for a future event to occur, Jesus said: John 12:31 “Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.”

This is that same thing yet working in the air of this world even after Jesus spoke what he did at John 12:31: Ephesians 2:2 “Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now works in the children of disobedience”

John 14:30 “Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.”

What was in the present when Jesus spoke was: John 16:11 “Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.”

And that judgment that Christ accomplished upon the wicked prince of this world’s air made possible the ousting of that prince and a change of the air toward this earth.

This is when that happens for the entire world: 1 Thessalonians 4:17 “Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.”

And now supplement that with a study of how Leviticus chapter 26; Deuteronomy chapter 28 to see how this earth’s heaven is all things it gets its blessings from God through, especially its governments. And they can be made strong like iron against men when God seeks to shape men. (Romans 13:1-6)

Jeremiah 6:28 “They are all grievous revolters, walking with slanders: they are brass and iron; they are all corrupters.”

Ezekiel 22:18 “Son of man, the house of Israel is to me become dross: all they are brass, and tin, and iron, and lead, in the midst of the furnace; they are even the dross of silver.”

This change of the authority of the air happens out of sight of the world as denoted by being caught into the cloud. The world finds out that Christ has arrived only once he and his angels with him bring wrath upon the nations. The saints are as riding with him in that they are cooperating with that change of government right here on earth.

 

[Eventide]

You ask: "Surely you don't believe that what you happen to believe about the living and powerful word of God (especially end time events) is precisely right and isn't subject to reproof... or do you ? "

What is the value in that comment?

I'm simply wondering if that's what you actually believe..? That is valuable for me to know because if that's the case then I'll understand that you somehow believe that your opinion on these matters is beyond reproof..

I can't imagine how people can think this about the living and powerful word of God.. as if it is all summed up in what we (I) happen to believe at the moment.. ? ?

Nevertheless, I see it all the time.. people thinking that their thoughts and opinions on these matters are the final authority so to speak.. see what I mean... seems crazy don't you think ?

Of course there are many things which we can know for certain in the word of God although end time events isn't exactly a high one on my list if you know what I mean.. I can read these things over and over again and still feel as though I haven't scratched the surface so to speak..

 

[Eventide]

You ask: "Surely you don't believe that what you happen to believe about the living and powerful word of God (especially end time events) is precisely right and isn't subject to reproof... or do you ? "

What is the value in that comment?

Speaking of the groundwork that was presently laid for a future event to occur, Jesus said: John 12:31 “Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.â€

This is that same thing yet working in the air of this world even after Jesus spoke what he did at John 12:31: Ephesians 2:2 “Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now works in the children of disobedienceâ€

John 14:30 “Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.â€

What was in the present when Jesus spoke was: John 16:11 “Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.â€

And that judgment that Christ accomplished upon the wicked prince of this world’s air made possible the ousting of that prince and a change of the air toward this earth.

This is when that happens for the entire world: 1 Thessalonians 4:17 “Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.â€

And now supplement that with a study of how Leviticus chapter 26; Deuteronomy chapter 28 to see how this earth’s heaven is all things it gets its blessings from God through, especially its governments. And they can be made strong like iron against men when God seeks to shape men. (Romans 13:1-6)

Jeremiah 6:28 “They are all grievous revolters, walking with slanders: they are brass and iron; they are all corrupters.â€

Ezekiel 22:18 “Son of man, the house of Israel is to me become dross: all they are brass, and tin, and iron, and lead, in the midst of the furnace; they are even the dross of silver.â€

This change of the authority of the air happens out of sight of the world as denoted by being caught into the cloud. The world finds out that Christ has arrived only once he and his angels with him bring wrath upon the nations. The saints are as riding with him in that they are cooperating with that change of government right here on earth.

So do you believe that Satan is still the god of this present evil world..? Doesn't Paul tell us that we wrestle not against flesh and blood but against spiritual wickedness in high places.. against the rulers of the darkness of this world..?

 

[Who Says]

So do you believe that Satan is still the god of this present evil world..? Doesn't Paul tell us that we wrestle not against flesh and blood but against spiritual wickedness in high places.. against the rulers of the darkness of this world..?

Yes, I do believe Satan is yet the God of this world.

And I do believe that what we are to war against is not other men whom we are supposed to love but we are to war against the subtle spiritual forces of Satan that enslave men.

In that way we are working to save men rather than to anger, alienate, and have them destroyed.

We must avoid the subtle attitude Jesus scolded in his disciples for at Luke 9:51-56.

 

[Eventide]

Yes, I do believe Satan is yet the God of this world.

I wasn't sure with all your comments around Satan and the 'air' etc..

And I do believe that what we are to war against is not other men whom we are supposed to love but we are to war against the subtle spiritual forces of Satan that enslave men.

In that way we are working to save men rather than to anger, alienate, and have them destroyed.

We must avoid the subtle attitude Jesus scolded in his disciples for at Luke 9:51-56.

I agree.. and it makes me wonder how that's possible from time to time when people think that their own opinion on these matters are beyond reproof.

 

[Watchman_2]

I didn't say that bible is opinion, it is truth... it is our interpretation of it which is opinion... unless of course you are deluded into thinking that you know everything there is to know with respect to the living and powerful word of God.

That's pure double talk! According to your thinking, no man is capable of providing Bible Truth, if it differs from your thumb-sucking rapture religion, because it would only be "opinion".

Yet, the Bible is replete with exhortation for us to discern true Christian teaching from the false. If that which you claim were true, there would be no Truth from which we could measure falsehood because man's interpretation is only "opinion".

Your post is the perfect example of the delusion God gives folks who love the lie of rapture. 'Opinion' is the means in which Rapturists deny the Truth!

I know, excuse me for thinking that 99.9% of Christendom, when talking about the rapture of the church, associates it with 1 Thess 4 scripture.. evidently you have no clue about that.

You better check your math. Catholics [Roman Catholics and Eastern Orhodox] comprise either 3 out of 4 or 4 out of 5 of all Christians. Catholics are not rapturists! Of Protestants, only the remote whacked out left wing [Baptists and further to the left -- Pentecostals/Charismacostals, etc.] preach the false rapture.

Hence, the overall vast majority of Christians already know there is no such thing as 'rapture' in Christendom. It is only the whacked-out leftists who believe it.

Now, are you going to tell us what your opinion is on 1 Thess 4 ?

I only teach Bible Truth -- not opinion.