Our understanding and our beliefs will be tested by fire. If they are not of God, then they will be destroyed. As far as the man himself (the believer), he will be saved, but only as through fire, which implies judgment. ie. Did he act wickedly? Did he forgive others? Did he show mercy? Did he invest wisely? So when the Lord returns he will judge the people.
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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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What is the work of the builder that will burn?
- Thread starter Jethro Bodine
- Start date
Our understanding and our beliefs will be tested by fire. If they are not of God, then they will be destroyed. As far as the man himself (the believer), he will be saved, but only as through fire, which implies judgment. ie. Did he act wickedly? Did he forgive others? Did he show mercy? Did he invest wisely? So when the Lord returns he will judge the people.
- Jul 13, 2012
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15 If anyone's work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.
he himself refers to the worker, not the work.
The work that the worker builds is people.
the work is burned...
the work is not saved...
the work is people...
what is saved is the worker, not the work.
Can you see this?
JLB
We don't build people. We build an understanding. We seek the knowledge of God. We gain wisdom and insight.
Re. Paul's letter, Paul laid the foundation, Jesus Christ and him crucified. That was his commission, his work.
Jesus Christ and him crucified is the foundational doctrine of the church. Then on top of that we have Jesus' teachings, which require a spirit of understanding, and his commandments.
The fire in this case is the word of God in the light of Christ which is the Day. So Paul writes, Let each man take care what he builds on the foundation. If anyone builds with gold and silver and precious stones, wood, hay, stubble - each man's work will become manifest. The Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire. So false teachings and false doctrines will be revealed to be false and they will be burned by the word of God. In many cases Jesus will say I never knew you. That's because they did not store up his words. Instead they stored up false teachings and wrath.
If a man's work is burned up, he will suffer a loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire. 'Only as through fire' implies judgment. So even though the man will suffer a loss, he will be saved if he abides in Christ and he keeps his commandments.
- Jul 13, 2012
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The fire is the word of God...
They will be burned by the word of God...
Ok Brother, thanks for your input.
JLB
Right.
Jeremiah 5:14
Therefore thus says the Lord, the God of hosts: “Because they have spoken this word, behold, I am making my words in your mouth a fire, and this people wood, and the fire shall devour them.
Jeremiah 23:29
Is not my word like fire, says the Lord, and like a hammer which breaks the rock in pieces?
When the Lord Jesus returns, his word will test what sort of work each man has done. Wood, hay and stubble will be revealed with fire. It will be interesting to see how much theology will go up in smoke.
- Jul 13, 2012
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I am making my words in your mouth a fire.
Were His word's a fire in his mouth before?
Or did God MAKE THEM A FIRE in his mouth.
Now from this scripture, you have decided that the fire in 1 Corinthians 3 is now God's word?
Again - Ok thanks brother, for your input.
Be blessed.
JLB
- Jul 13, 2012
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The Holy Spirit and Fire.
I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.
Matthew 3:11
You added the word of God.
The bible doesn't say this, you do.
It is another example of those from the OSAS camp, redefining phrases and words in the Bible to try and make their point.
You are free to believe what you want.
JLB
Jethro Bodine
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Mark, IMO, you're close that what gets burned up is doctrine. But we have the precedent of the scriptures themselves to help us know what Paul was speaking about in his analogy of the stubble, the fire, the laborer, and his work:
"14 "Behold, they have become like stubble, Fire burns them; They cannot deliver themselves from the power of the flame; There will be no coal to warm by Nor a fire to sit before! 15 "So have those become to you with whom you have labored, Who have trafficked with you from your youth; Each has wandered in his own way; There is none to save you." (Isaiah 47:14-15 NASB)
It's actually what doctrine builds that either makes it through the Judgment, or does not.
"Lebanon is shamed and withers; Sharon is like a desert plain, And Bashan and Carmel lose their foliage. 10"Now I will arise," says the LORD, "Now I will be exalted, now I will be lifted up. 11 "You have conceived chaff, you will give birth to stubble; My breath will consume you like a fire. 12 "The peoples will be burned to lime, Like cut thorns which are burned in the fire. 13 "You who are far away, hear what I have done; And you who are near, acknowledge My might." 14 Sinners in Zion are terrified;Trembling has seized the godless. "Who among us can live with the consuming fire? Who among us can live with continual burning?" 15 He who walks righteously and speaks with sincerity, He who rejects unjust gain And shakes his hands so that they hold no bribe; He who stops his ears from hearing about bloodshed And shuts his eyes from looking upon evil; 16 He will dwell on the heights,His refuge will be the impregnable rock; His bread will be given him, His water will be sure. 17 Your eyes will see the King in His beauty..." (Isaiah 33:9-17 NASB)
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Malachi 4:1
[ The Great Day of the Lord ] “For behold, the day comes, burning like an oven, when all the arrogant and all evildoers will be stubble; the day that comes shall burn them up, says the Lord of hosts, so that it will leave them neither root nor branch.
Isaiah and Malachi are talking about the destruction of the wicked, (evil doers will be stubble), while Paul is imparting spiritual truth to those who possess the Spirit of truth. So two different things.
One is about the destruction of the wicked and the ungodly on earth. The other is about what other men, apostles and prophets and teachers, will build on the foundation of the gospel of Jesus Christ that Paul laid.
[ The Great Day of the Lord ] “For behold, the day comes, burning like an oven, when all the arrogant and all evildoers will be stubble; the day that comes shall burn them up, says the Lord of hosts, so that it will leave them neither root nor branch.
Isaiah and Malachi are talking about the destruction of the wicked, (evil doers will be stubble), while Paul is imparting spiritual truth to those who possess the Spirit of truth. So two different things.
One is about the destruction of the wicked and the ungodly on earth. The other is about what other men, apostles and prophets and teachers, will build on the foundation of the gospel of Jesus Christ that Paul laid.
Jethro Bodine
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Why can't Paul be talking about those who never 'really' believed the message being burned? That would make it so the passage can mean what I say it means and still be spoken to the building of God at Corinth.
Like I say, I don't need to make this a OSAS thread to defend my opinion about the passage. Biblically, we see it is indeed people who are like hay and stubble who are burned on the Day of Judgment, and who are people for whom others labored and labored with.
The goats and the sheep will be separated, but that's another thing.
Why can't he be talking about those who don't really believe? Because he isn't.
He is interpreting spiritual truth to those who possess the Spirit of truth. Those who possess the Spirit of truth are assigned spiritual gifts - gifts of knowledge, wisdom and understanding. 'These things are comparable to gold, precious stones and silver. The words of the Lord are 'all straight to him who understands and right to those who find knowledge'. Pr. 8:9 As the proverb says, 'Take my instruction instead of silver, and knowledge rather than choice gold; for wisdom is better than jewels and all that you may desire cannot compare with her.' Pr. 8:10-11
In fact each one of us is a building if the Spirit is in him. And as servants of the Lord, if we desire to teach others, we have to be careful that our work is acceptable and right. When the Lord returns, he will reward the man if he has built on the foundation with gold and silver and precious stones.
Just follow Paul's train of thought and read the whole letter. If you do that then maybe you will see he is instructing the church. He is not talking about those who don't believe. He is instructing those who do believe how they should behave, especially teachers.
Deborah13
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Deborah13
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Ah....
So if OSASers have used this passage to defend OSAS they used it incorrectly.
imo, Mark T has hit the nail on the head with his interpretation.
This scripture is only speaking about teachings that build on Paul's foundation of teachings. Those that are incorrect are as stubble and will be burnt but the that were correct will be as gold, silver...
Jethro Bodine
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When someone reads the passage and says, "oh, God can't burn his own people, therefore he's not talking about burning people", they have developed their interpretation through the lenses of a predetermined doctrine instead of just letting the passage say what it says and interpreting it with the rest of scripture.Ah....
So if OSASers have used this passage to defend OSAS they used it incorrectly.
And I wouldn't expect the church, in general, to see it any other way. We've come to the place where what you believe about certain doctrines is what counts and not what you do.
Most in the church believe we'll give an account for the doctrines we held to be true in this life instead of what did in this life because works are so utterly and completely disconnected from salvation. Works do not have to be a source of justification for them to play a role in salvation, but the church in general will argue vehemently against that not knowing that works will be the evidence that God uses to determine whether you go into the fire because of unbelief and/or contempt for the free gift, or not.
Jethro Bodine
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Well, of course you have to say that. It's the circular reasoning of the OSAS argument that says, "Paul can't be talking about his people being burned because God doesn't burn his own people, even if they go back to unbelief, or treat the free gift with comtempt."
So we should go with this analogy simply because it's about silver and gold and ignore the abundance of other analogies about silver and gold and precious gems and hay and stubble in the same context of what Paul is talking about, the building of God, right? That's not reasonable. But that's what you have to do to avoid the obvious.
The analogies that speak directly to this subject (the Biblical analogy you picked does not) show us that what does not make it through the fire are people, not doctrines. Are you really saying we should go with the analogy you picked that doesn't even speak to the subject Paul is talking about--people--and ignore the ones that do? That's unreasonable. I'd even call it deceitful under certain circumstances.
Include the whole context of the Bible and it's incredibly obvious he's making direct reference to the same analogies already spoken about in scripture about God burning up people as though they are stubble. But to guard a predetermined doctrine it will be necessary to ignore those exact same analogies and defer to a completely disconnected analogy about silver and gold that isn't even talking about the building of God (people).
It's not the point Jethro. Who said anything about OSAS? Not me. Not Paul.
What happens to gold and silver and wood and straw in a fire? Gold and silver are refined by fire. Wood, hay and straw are consumed by fire. So it is with the unchanging imperishable word of God. So wisdom says take my instruction. It's better than silver. The word of God is knowledge. It's better and of more value than gold. So store up his words. Our understanding isn't perfect, but it will be perfected when the Lord returns. Our knowledge isn't perfect, but it will be perfected when he returns. Then his word will be like fire, and it will burn off any imperfections in our understanding. So in using the language of the proverbs Paul is saying, if anyone builds on his foundation, if it is the word of God, then it will survive. Like gold and silver, our understanding will be refined and purified. If it isn't of God, if it is false, then the fire that issues from the mouth of our Lord it will consume it. Wisdom teaches us to heed the word of God
What happens to gold and silver and wood and straw in a fire? Gold and silver are refined by fire. Wood, hay and straw are consumed by fire. So it is with the unchanging imperishable word of God. So wisdom says take my instruction. It's better than silver. The word of God is knowledge. It's better and of more value than gold. So store up his words. Our understanding isn't perfect, but it will be perfected when the Lord returns. Our knowledge isn't perfect, but it will be perfected when he returns. Then his word will be like fire, and it will burn off any imperfections in our understanding. So in using the language of the proverbs Paul is saying, if anyone builds on his foundation, if it is the word of God, then it will survive. Like gold and silver, our understanding will be refined and purified. If it isn't of God, if it is false, then the fire that issues from the mouth of our Lord it will consume it. Wisdom teaches us to heed the word of God
Jethro Bodine
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You did, but probably not on purpose.
Whether you realize it or not, you're applying a preconceived belief to what Paul is saying. You're assuming ahead of time that it's impossible for those who 'possess the Spirit of truth' to ever be among the evil doers who are burned as stubble on the Day of Christ, therefore, you automatically reject that interpretation of what Paul is saying to the Corinthians.
Look at what Paul says to the believers in the Philippian church:
"14 Do all things without grumbling or disputing; 15 so that you will prove yourselves to be blameless and innocent, children of God above reproach in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation, among whom you appear as lights in the world, 16 holding fast the word of life, so that in the day of Christ I will have reason to glory because I did not run in vain nor toil in vain." (Philippians 2:14-16 NASB)
Paul tells these believers to 'hold fast the word of life' so he will not lose his reason to glory before Christ for having not labored in vain among them. Like I say, we don't have to make this passage about OSAS/ non-OSAS. The point is, Paul loses his reason to glory at the return of Christ for the labor he performed if those he labored for don't hold fast the word of life (we can argue about whether they 'really' believed or not in another thread). But you say all he had to do was have accurate doctrine to receive glory and honor at the coming of Christ. But he says the word of life he preached to the church has to have results for him to glory in his toil on the Day of Christ.
Obviously, bad doctrine would rob him of those results, too. That's why I said you were close to what Paul was getting at. In fact, the defense of his doctrine is the very reason he's even explaining all this to the Corinthians. He wants them to understand that there is no benefit to him personally on the Day of Christ to preach a gospel to them (or labor insufficiently among them) that only builds them up into wood, hay, straw, or stubble that won't make it through the Judgment and into the kingdom. He wants the reward on the Day of Christ for his labor not having been in vain. He does not want to lose the reason for that reward (them) because they do not make it through the Judgment. The reason they are revealed to be made of stubble and, therefore, don't make it through the Judgment being the stuff of another thread :wink.
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- Jul 13, 2012
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Agreed Brother!
As Paul moves through his letter he makes his point perfectly clear.
8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, nor with the leaven of malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth. 9 I wrote to you in my epistle not to keep company with sexually immoral people. 10 Yet I certainly did not mean with the sexually immoral people of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world. 11 But now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother, who is sexually immoral, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner--not even to eat with such a person. 12 For what have I to do with judging those also who are outside? Do you not judge those who are inside? 13 But those who are outside God judges. Therefore "put away from yourselves the evil person." 1 Corinthians 5:8-13
Yet I certainly did not mean with the sexually immoral people of this world...I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother, who is sexually immoral, or covetous, or an idolater...
By the time we get to the next chapter, Paul gets to the heart of the matter, concerning Christian Brothers who refuse to turn from a lifestyle of walking in the flesh.
9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 1 Corinthians 6:9-10
Paul writing to the church in Corinth, addressing brothers in Christ, as he clearly stated he is not addressing the world.
These will not inherit the kingdom...
This is exactly what he said in his letter to the Galatians -
19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:19-21
...those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
Christians who choose to walk in the flesh and continue to live that way until they die, will not inherit the kingdom of God.
1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. Romans 8:1
The fear of the Lord is a fountain of life, To turn one away from the snares of death. Proverbs 14:27
JLB