No one ever talks about what Heaven will be like before the resurrection of our bodies. If we will be just spirits without a physical body until it's resurrected, how will we be able to, for example, eat in the current Heaven? I don't think we can do what we can now without a body, so we will have to wait until then to enjoy a better existence in the New Heaven which will come to Earth as the New Jerusalem? What will we be able to do in the meantime after death? And why must both heavens be so different from what we now know in this life except for sin? I've heard of some things that people enjoy now won't likely be there. Sin I can understand won't be there, of course. Yet why would God make anything good here to just discard or even replace it after this life?
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What type of existence will we have in the present Heaven before the Resurrection?
- Thread starter YTENZ10
- Start date
smaller
Member
Re: What type of existence will we have in the present Heaven before the Resurrection
The Christian hope is the redemption of our mortal bodies. That does not mean that the Seed of God does not spring up from our present 'earth' bodies here 'on' the earth.
It appears that you have some two fold heaven belief as in one after death apart from sin and another later. That is not the case. When we depart from here we are present with God in Christ.
s
The Christian hope is the redemption of our mortal bodies. That does not mean that the Seed of God does not spring up from our present 'earth' bodies here 'on' the earth.
It appears that you have some two fold heaven belief as in one after death apart from sin and another later. That is not the case. When we depart from here we are present with God in Christ.
s
E
Elijah674
Guest
Re: What type of existence will we have in the present Heaven before the Resurrection
I see that the ones that came out of their graves after Christ's resurrection 'appeared' to many in their resurrected bodies. And we are told that flesh & blood will not be in heaven as per the sinful old flesh & blood. (as 'i' see it;))
And Adam was made in the image of God (both) + had the Holy Spirit (God) in him until he sinned, and then needed to be Born Again!
Anyway, I like the passage of Isa. 65
[19] And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.
[20] There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.
[21] And they [[shall build houses, and inhabit them;]] and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them.
[22] They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree are the days of my people, and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.
[23] They shall not labour in vain, nor bring forth for trouble; for they are the seed of the blessed of the LORD, and their offspring with them.
[24] And it shall come to pass, that before they call, I will answer; and while they are yet speaking, I will hear.
[25] The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the LORD.
And while in Isaiah 65, lets look at Isa. 66 for some more Inspiration!
[22] For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.
[23] And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, [[and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD]].
So as I see it, we will be as Adam was before sin. (see Eccl. 3:15) And also the [CITY] will have no need of the sun because God will be the light there with NO night! Yet, we will have a country home away from the New Jerusalen City is the way that I read it!;)
--Elijah
I see that the ones that came out of their graves after Christ's resurrection 'appeared' to many in their resurrected bodies. And we are told that flesh & blood will not be in heaven as per the sinful old flesh & blood. (as 'i' see it;))
And Adam was made in the image of God (both) + had the Holy Spirit (God) in him until he sinned, and then needed to be Born Again!
Anyway, I like the passage of Isa. 65
[19] And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.
[20] There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.
[21] And they [[shall build houses, and inhabit them;]] and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them.
[22] They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree are the days of my people, and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.[23] They shall not labour in vain, nor bring forth for trouble; for they are the seed of the blessed of the LORD, and their offspring with them.
[24] And it shall come to pass, that before they call, I will answer; and while they are yet speaking, I will hear.
[25] The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the LORD.
And while in Isaiah 65, lets look at Isa. 66 for some more Inspiration!
[22] For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.
[23] And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, [[and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD]].
So as I see it, we will be as Adam was before sin. (see Eccl. 3:15) And also the [CITY] will have no need of the sun because God will be the light there with NO night! Yet, we will have a country home away from the New Jerusalen City is the way that I read it!;)
--Elijah
Re: What type of existence will we have in the present Heaven before the Resurrection
No reason to talk about it because we are not going there...
Joh 7:34 Ye shallseek me, and shall not find me: and where I am, thither ye cannot come.
Joh 8:21 Then saidJesus again unto them, I go my way, and ye shall seek me, and shall die in yoursins: whither I go, ye cannot come.
Joh 13:33 Little children, yet a little while I am with you. Ye shall seek me: andas I said unto the Jews, Whither I go, ye cannot come; so now I say to you.
No reason to talk about it because we are not going there...
Joh 7:34 Ye shallseek me, and shall not find me: and where I am, thither ye cannot come.
Joh 8:21 Then saidJesus again unto them, I go my way, and ye shall seek me, and shall die in yoursins: whither I go, ye cannot come.
Joh 13:33 Little children, yet a little while I am with you. Ye shall seek me: andas I said unto the Jews, Whither I go, ye cannot come; so now I say to you.
Re: What type of existence will we have in the present Heaven before the Resurrection
I was asking because I thought, right after dying, we immediately go to be with Jesus in a spiritual dimension or intermediate Heaven if permitted until our physical deceased bodies were raised/materialized and glorified. Basically, we'd have to wait as spirit beings for our future improved physical substances. I think that's what the Resurrection is supposed to be, right?
I was asking because I thought, right after dying, we immediately go to be with Jesus in a spiritual dimension or intermediate Heaven if permitted until our physical deceased bodies were raised/materialized and glorified. Basically, we'd have to wait as spirit beings for our future improved physical substances. I think that's what the Resurrection is supposed to be, right?
Classik
Member
Re: What type of existence will we have in the present Heaven before the Resurrection
That's a threat!:bigfrown And where the heck did you get this from? Soccccccer can't be forgotten. We gonna build a new Camp Nou in heaven and continue playing soccer:bounceball
:D
That's a threat!:bigfrown And where the heck did you get this from? Soccccccer can't be forgotten. We gonna build a new Camp Nou in heaven and continue playing soccer:bounceball
:D
Re: What type of existence will we have in the present Heaven before the Resurrection
This is lengthy but I wanted to be complete in writing this
NO ONE GOES TO HEAVEN
We know Jesus sits at the right hand of God, Mark 16:19, (some verses say stands at the right hand) and the reason for this is that Jesus is our mediator, John 14:6, between man and God as man cannot look upon the face of God and live, Exodus 33:20, as God can not look upon the flesh of man for it is sinful, Habakkuk 1:13, and Gods countenance is to brilliant for man to look upon. It would be like trying to look at the sun as it is too bright for us to look at with our own eyes. In Exodus 33:20, 23 God told Moses that he could see Gods back parts only as God placed Moses in the crevices to shield him as he passed by him as no one could see his face and live. Gods back parts that we still see today as Moses saw then is Gods grace and mercy on his people that even though we might not be able to see God we always know that he is always with us as his word says he will never leave us or forsake us, Hebrews 13:5.
The only ones who will ever see the throne of God are those of a heavenly spiritual creation in the third heaven, (Bible speaks of three heavens as explained below) which are the angels, Jesus, as now he is in his glorified state, Matthew 17:2, that shines like the sun without flesh and bone, but will return visible for all to see him, Acts 1:9-11, in the same way he ascended visibly and was consumed by the clouds and could no longer be seen by anyone as this is when Jesus was changed from flesh and blood to his immortal state of being spirit once again, 1Corinthians 15:50. Satan, who is also spirit form, can be found at times standing before the throne of God accusing the brethren, but even though he is still in heaven he only has limited access to the throne room of God as he goes to and fro between heaven and earth for now, Job 1:6; Revelation 12:7-12.
No one has or ever will enter into the third heaven where God sits on his throne as it is not a literal place we can see with our own eyes, but that of a Spiritual realm reserve only for that which is created Spiritual. According to John 14:2 Jesus is preparing a new heaven (Atmosphere) and a new earth that he will usher down after the tribulation of those days before his return, Matthew 24:29-31, as when Jesus comes back in the clouds as they have seen him leave he will raise up his Bride into the clouds to meet him in the air, 1Thessalonians 4:14-18, and than will he come down to plant his feet on the Mount of Olives to make an end of the abomination of sin once and for all and ushers down from the third heaven the new Jerusalem and new earth, Zechariah 14:4; Revelation 21:1,2. Those that are in Christ that have died to the grave and those alive will the angels gather from the four winds of the heavens, Matthew 24:31, and then will be changed in a twinkling of an eye as mortality will put on immortality, corruption will put on incorruption, 1Corinthians 15:51-55 and we will reign with Christ in our new bodies in the reward of the inheritance of the new heaven (Atmosphere), new Jerusalem and new Earth as we will reign with Christ for eternity, Isaiah 65:17-25; 1Corinthians Chapter 15.
With all this said I know many of you think that Elijah and Philip were taken up to heaven in a whirlwind and what about the Transfiguration of Jesus, Moses and Elias (Elijah). First let’s look at Elijah. 2Kings 2:3 And the sons of the prophets that were at Bethel came forth to Elisha, and said unto him, Knowest thou that the LORD will take away thy master from thy head to day? And he said, Yea, I know it; hold ye your peace. The sons of the prophets had a leader named Elijah who was also a prophet sent by God to King Ahab who was a wicked ruler along with Ahab’s son Ahaziah. God needed Elisha to take over the office of Elijah in Israel for the next fifty years as Elijah was old in years and king Ahaziah had died. The work God had for Elisha had to start under a new king. God had to separate Elijah from the people as Elisha held his office now and since God never takes an office away from someone who is performing his duties well he had to remove Elijah by using a whirlwind to take him up into the first heaven so the people did not think he was unqualified anymore for that duty of the office he held, 2Kings 2:1-18. When Elijah was taken up his mantle fell from him and Elisha picked it up and resumed the duties of Elijah. Now, Elijah was caught up to the first heaven (atmosphere) and no one ever knew where he landed, even though many went out to look for him, but could not find him as God saw to it that he was placed where no one knew him. We know he was still alive living here on earth as 2Chronicles 21:12-15 states that Jehoram received a letter from him years later.
Philip was also taken up in a whirlwind (first heaven) according to Acts 8:39,40 and placed at Azotus some thirty miles away preaching in all the cities until he ended up in Caesarea where he married and had daughters who prophesied. It was there that he lived out the rest of his days. Ezekiel according to Ezekiel 3:12 was caught up into the first heaven and brought to Jerusalem to the door of the inner gate, Ezekiel 8:3, and then again taken up and taken to Chaldea, Ezekiel 11:24. Then we have the transfiguration in Matthew 17:1-9 where Jesus took Peter, James and John his brother up to the mountain and then in a supernatural vision (emphasis on vision) there appeared Moses and Elijah standing with Jesus. What Peter, James and John saw was a glimpse of Jesus in his glorified state as he stood praying to the Father and showing the three disciples that he was come to fulfill the law through his death on the cross as being made the final blood sacrifice taking all our sin upon himself for the fulfillment of the law as Moses stood there representing the law as the law giver and Elijah representing the greatest prophet to the Jews as keeping all the law and teachings others to do so as well until the fulfillment in Messiah would come. The disciples never really knew who Jesus was and what his purpose of coming was all about. All they knew was that Jesus was a prophet teacher sent by God as somewhat a renewed Elijah. This is why Jesus told them to tell the vision to no man of what they saw.
Jesus had to be the firstfruit of the resurrection to eternal life for all who are dead as by Adam all have died, but through Christ all may live as the last enemy is death and Jesus must reign until all his enemies are under his feet, 1Corinthians 15:20-26. Moses, Elijah, Philip are all yet in their graves as are all those who have gone before us that are in Christ and have yet not received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth, Hebrews 11:13.
Deuteronomy 34:5 So Moses the servant of the LORD died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of the LORD.
Deuteronomy 34:6 and he buried him in a valley in the land of Moab, over against Bethpeor: but no man knoweth of his sepulchre unto this day.
Hebrews 11:23-28 talks about Moses living by faith. Further down in verses 39 and 40 say that Moses did not receive the promise of a resurrection unto eternal life and perfection.
2Kings 13:20 and Elisha died and they buried him. And the bands of the Moabites invaded the land at the coming in of the year.
2Kings 13:21 And it came to pass, as they were burying a man, that, behold, they spied a band of men; and they cast the man into the sepulchre of Elisha: and when the man was let down, and touched the bones of Elisha, he revived, and stood up on his feet.
Heb 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
John 3:13 and no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
Hebrews 9:27 and as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment
Scripture for Jesus sits/stands at the right hand of God - Exodus 33:17-23; 2 Chronicles 18:18-21; Psalms 110:1; Job 1:6,7; Mark 12:35-37; Mark 16:19; Acts 7:55,56; Romans 8:34; Revelation 12:10ist and who are alive in
Scripture for all that are in Christ who have died will sleep until His return for His bride: Deut 31:16 (Moses); 2Samuel 7:12 (King David); Job 7:21; Job 14:12 (Job); Daniel 12:1,2; 1 Cor15:51; 2Peter 3:4; 1Thess 4:13-15; John 5:28,29; Rev21:1 (end time saints of God)
THREE HEAVENS
First heaven - The firmament, Earths atmosphere which is the immediate sky, where the fowls of the heaven, Genesis 2:19; 7:3, 23; Psalms 8:8, and the eagles of heaven, Lamentations 4:19, fly. It is our atmosphere that surrounds the earth.
Second Heaven - Outer Space, the starry heavens, Deuteronomy 17:3; Jeremiah 8:2; Matthew 24:29. The second heaven is the starry heavens, where our atmosphere ends. It is the heavens in which the sun, moon, and stars are fixed in orbit.
Third Heaven - This is where God dwells. It is called the heaven of heavens, Deuteronomy 10:14; 1 Kings 8:27; Psalms 115:16; 148:4. 1Kings 8:27 the heavens, even the highest heaven, cannot contain you. (Psalm 2:4) The One enthroned in heaven laughs; The LORD scoffs at them. The third heaven is beyond the space and stars where no man has seen by telescope. This heaven is the dwelling-place of God.
This is lengthy but I wanted to be complete in writing this
NO ONE GOES TO HEAVEN
We know Jesus sits at the right hand of God, Mark 16:19, (some verses say stands at the right hand) and the reason for this is that Jesus is our mediator, John 14:6, between man and God as man cannot look upon the face of God and live, Exodus 33:20, as God can not look upon the flesh of man for it is sinful, Habakkuk 1:13, and Gods countenance is to brilliant for man to look upon. It would be like trying to look at the sun as it is too bright for us to look at with our own eyes. In Exodus 33:20, 23 God told Moses that he could see Gods back parts only as God placed Moses in the crevices to shield him as he passed by him as no one could see his face and live. Gods back parts that we still see today as Moses saw then is Gods grace and mercy on his people that even though we might not be able to see God we always know that he is always with us as his word says he will never leave us or forsake us, Hebrews 13:5.
The only ones who will ever see the throne of God are those of a heavenly spiritual creation in the third heaven, (Bible speaks of three heavens as explained below) which are the angels, Jesus, as now he is in his glorified state, Matthew 17:2, that shines like the sun without flesh and bone, but will return visible for all to see him, Acts 1:9-11, in the same way he ascended visibly and was consumed by the clouds and could no longer be seen by anyone as this is when Jesus was changed from flesh and blood to his immortal state of being spirit once again, 1Corinthians 15:50. Satan, who is also spirit form, can be found at times standing before the throne of God accusing the brethren, but even though he is still in heaven he only has limited access to the throne room of God as he goes to and fro between heaven and earth for now, Job 1:6; Revelation 12:7-12.
No one has or ever will enter into the third heaven where God sits on his throne as it is not a literal place we can see with our own eyes, but that of a Spiritual realm reserve only for that which is created Spiritual. According to John 14:2 Jesus is preparing a new heaven (Atmosphere) and a new earth that he will usher down after the tribulation of those days before his return, Matthew 24:29-31, as when Jesus comes back in the clouds as they have seen him leave he will raise up his Bride into the clouds to meet him in the air, 1Thessalonians 4:14-18, and than will he come down to plant his feet on the Mount of Olives to make an end of the abomination of sin once and for all and ushers down from the third heaven the new Jerusalem and new earth, Zechariah 14:4; Revelation 21:1,2. Those that are in Christ that have died to the grave and those alive will the angels gather from the four winds of the heavens, Matthew 24:31, and then will be changed in a twinkling of an eye as mortality will put on immortality, corruption will put on incorruption, 1Corinthians 15:51-55 and we will reign with Christ in our new bodies in the reward of the inheritance of the new heaven (Atmosphere), new Jerusalem and new Earth as we will reign with Christ for eternity, Isaiah 65:17-25; 1Corinthians Chapter 15.
With all this said I know many of you think that Elijah and Philip were taken up to heaven in a whirlwind and what about the Transfiguration of Jesus, Moses and Elias (Elijah). First let’s look at Elijah. 2Kings 2:3 And the sons of the prophets that were at Bethel came forth to Elisha, and said unto him, Knowest thou that the LORD will take away thy master from thy head to day? And he said, Yea, I know it; hold ye your peace. The sons of the prophets had a leader named Elijah who was also a prophet sent by God to King Ahab who was a wicked ruler along with Ahab’s son Ahaziah. God needed Elisha to take over the office of Elijah in Israel for the next fifty years as Elijah was old in years and king Ahaziah had died. The work God had for Elisha had to start under a new king. God had to separate Elijah from the people as Elisha held his office now and since God never takes an office away from someone who is performing his duties well he had to remove Elijah by using a whirlwind to take him up into the first heaven so the people did not think he was unqualified anymore for that duty of the office he held, 2Kings 2:1-18. When Elijah was taken up his mantle fell from him and Elisha picked it up and resumed the duties of Elijah. Now, Elijah was caught up to the first heaven (atmosphere) and no one ever knew where he landed, even though many went out to look for him, but could not find him as God saw to it that he was placed where no one knew him. We know he was still alive living here on earth as 2Chronicles 21:12-15 states that Jehoram received a letter from him years later.
Philip was also taken up in a whirlwind (first heaven) according to Acts 8:39,40 and placed at Azotus some thirty miles away preaching in all the cities until he ended up in Caesarea where he married and had daughters who prophesied. It was there that he lived out the rest of his days. Ezekiel according to Ezekiel 3:12 was caught up into the first heaven and brought to Jerusalem to the door of the inner gate, Ezekiel 8:3, and then again taken up and taken to Chaldea, Ezekiel 11:24. Then we have the transfiguration in Matthew 17:1-9 where Jesus took Peter, James and John his brother up to the mountain and then in a supernatural vision (emphasis on vision) there appeared Moses and Elijah standing with Jesus. What Peter, James and John saw was a glimpse of Jesus in his glorified state as he stood praying to the Father and showing the three disciples that he was come to fulfill the law through his death on the cross as being made the final blood sacrifice taking all our sin upon himself for the fulfillment of the law as Moses stood there representing the law as the law giver and Elijah representing the greatest prophet to the Jews as keeping all the law and teachings others to do so as well until the fulfillment in Messiah would come. The disciples never really knew who Jesus was and what his purpose of coming was all about. All they knew was that Jesus was a prophet teacher sent by God as somewhat a renewed Elijah. This is why Jesus told them to tell the vision to no man of what they saw.
Jesus had to be the firstfruit of the resurrection to eternal life for all who are dead as by Adam all have died, but through Christ all may live as the last enemy is death and Jesus must reign until all his enemies are under his feet, 1Corinthians 15:20-26. Moses, Elijah, Philip are all yet in their graves as are all those who have gone before us that are in Christ and have yet not received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth, Hebrews 11:13.
Deuteronomy 34:5 So Moses the servant of the LORD died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of the LORD.
Deuteronomy 34:6 and he buried him in a valley in the land of Moab, over against Bethpeor: but no man knoweth of his sepulchre unto this day.
Hebrews 11:23-28 talks about Moses living by faith. Further down in verses 39 and 40 say that Moses did not receive the promise of a resurrection unto eternal life and perfection.
2Kings 13:20 and Elisha died and they buried him. And the bands of the Moabites invaded the land at the coming in of the year.
2Kings 13:21 And it came to pass, as they were burying a man, that, behold, they spied a band of men; and they cast the man into the sepulchre of Elisha: and when the man was let down, and touched the bones of Elisha, he revived, and stood up on his feet.
Heb 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
John 3:13 and no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
Hebrews 9:27 and as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment
Scripture for Jesus sits/stands at the right hand of God - Exodus 33:17-23; 2 Chronicles 18:18-21; Psalms 110:1; Job 1:6,7; Mark 12:35-37; Mark 16:19; Acts 7:55,56; Romans 8:34; Revelation 12:10ist and who are alive in
Scripture for all that are in Christ who have died will sleep until His return for His bride: Deut 31:16 (Moses); 2Samuel 7:12 (King David); Job 7:21; Job 14:12 (Job); Daniel 12:1,2; 1 Cor15:51; 2Peter 3:4; 1Thess 4:13-15; John 5:28,29; Rev21:1 (end time saints of God)
THREE HEAVENS
First heaven - The firmament, Earths atmosphere which is the immediate sky, where the fowls of the heaven, Genesis 2:19; 7:3, 23; Psalms 8:8, and the eagles of heaven, Lamentations 4:19, fly. It is our atmosphere that surrounds the earth.
Second Heaven - Outer Space, the starry heavens, Deuteronomy 17:3; Jeremiah 8:2; Matthew 24:29. The second heaven is the starry heavens, where our atmosphere ends. It is the heavens in which the sun, moon, and stars are fixed in orbit.
Third Heaven - This is where God dwells. It is called the heaven of heavens, Deuteronomy 10:14; 1 Kings 8:27; Psalms 115:16; 148:4. 1Kings 8:27 the heavens, even the highest heaven, cannot contain you. (Psalm 2:4) The One enthroned in heaven laughs; The LORD scoffs at them. The third heaven is beyond the space and stars where no man has seen by telescope. This heaven is the dwelling-place of God.
smaller
Member
Re: What type of existence will we have in the present Heaven before the Resurrection
I read your writing, and generally you make some excellent and factually accurate scriptural observations. I might say in all of it however that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. Not lying as bones in a graveyard waiting. Jesus lies not in dead mens bones, waiting, but is God of the Living. Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are LIVING and the dead ARE RAISED to LIFE.
In short, when we depart the flesh, our new body is put on, and we are with The Lord. You emphasized for example the transfiguration as a 'vision' and it was so. We can see in retrospect that it was in fact THE SPIRIT OF CHRIST who spoke through both of those men, and ALL the Prophets.
I believe there is a corporate end to this matter as well, meaning 'in bulk form.'
The 'cloud of witnesses' speaks to the fact that they are not still lying in their graves awaiting. They await the balance of His Body to 'come into' the complete Body, all of us, finished with Him as our Head where we will all be 'as One.'
In any case much of these types of matters remain veiled because of this fact:
1 Corinthians 2:9
But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
That being said, I agree with much of what you wrote of. We also know that 'theoretically speaking' we are already seated in the heavenlies.
Eph. 2:
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved )
6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
These are difficult matters.It remains somewhat problematic to see these things because of our present state. I fully admit to 'seeing only in part.' Though I ponder these matters almost daily. You are welcome to hit my observations as hard as you would. I enjoy the exercise and don't have any particular agenda that things must only be 'my way.' I sometimes believe that 'all' believers have a portion that is meant to share for the benefit of all of us.
s
I read your writing, and generally you make some excellent and factually accurate scriptural observations. I might say in all of it however that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. Not lying as bones in a graveyard waiting. Jesus lies not in dead mens bones, waiting, but is God of the Living. Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are LIVING and the dead ARE RAISED to LIFE.
In short, when we depart the flesh, our new body is put on, and we are with The Lord. You emphasized for example the transfiguration as a 'vision' and it was so. We can see in retrospect that it was in fact THE SPIRIT OF CHRIST who spoke through both of those men, and ALL the Prophets.
I believe there is a corporate end to this matter as well, meaning 'in bulk form.'
The 'cloud of witnesses' speaks to the fact that they are not still lying in their graves awaiting. They await the balance of His Body to 'come into' the complete Body, all of us, finished with Him as our Head where we will all be 'as One.'
In any case much of these types of matters remain veiled because of this fact:
1 Corinthians 2:9
But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
That being said, I agree with much of what you wrote of. We also know that 'theoretically speaking' we are already seated in the heavenlies.
Eph. 2:
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved )
6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
These are difficult matters.It remains somewhat problematic to see these things because of our present state. I fully admit to 'seeing only in part.' Though I ponder these matters almost daily. You are welcome to hit my observations as hard as you would. I enjoy the exercise and don't have any particular agenda that things must only be 'my way.' I sometimes believe that 'all' believers have a portion that is meant to share for the benefit of all of us.
s
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Re: What type of existence will we have in the present Heaven before the Resurrection
2Co 5:6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
2Co 5:7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight
2Co 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
Many people take these verses to mean when we die we are immediately with the Lord in heaven, but that is not what these verses are saying. What is simply being said from vs. 1 to vs. 9 is that while we are here on earth in this body we are motivated by knowing Jesus will return with his reward of a new heaven and earth and even though it would be good to be with him right now, we will just wait patiently until he does return as then those who are dead and still alive will be resurrected and then corruption (flesh) will put on incorruption (righteousness) as we will reign with Christ forever on the new earth.
2Co 5:6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
2Co 5:7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight
2Co 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
Many people take these verses to mean when we die we are immediately with the Lord in heaven, but that is not what these verses are saying. What is simply being said from vs. 1 to vs. 9 is that while we are here on earth in this body we are motivated by knowing Jesus will return with his reward of a new heaven and earth and even though it would be good to be with him right now, we will just wait patiently until he does return as then those who are dead and still alive will be resurrected and then corruption (flesh) will put on incorruption (righteousness) as we will reign with Christ forever on the new earth.
smaller
Member
Re: What type of existence will we have in the present Heaven before the Resurrection
I was asking in effect if you are promoting the 'soul sleep' position, which same I do not accept. That being that believers reside sleeping in their graves until the resurrection. I do not accept that position.
s
2Co 5:6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
2Co 5:7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight
2Co 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
Many people take these verses to mean when we die we are immediately with the Lord in heaven, but that is not what these verses are saying. What is simply being said from vs. 1 to vs. 9 is that while we are here on earth in this body we are motivated by knowing Jesus will return with his reward of a new heaven and earth and even though it would be good to be with him right now, we will just wait patiently until he does return as then those who are dead and still alive will be resurrected and then corruption (flesh) will put on incorruption (righteousness) as we will reign with Christ forever on the new earth.
I was asking in effect if you are promoting the 'soul sleep' position, which same I do not accept. That being that believers reside sleeping in their graves until the resurrection. I do not accept that position.
s
L
Lehigh3
Guest
Re: What type of existence will we have in the present Heaven before the Resurrection
The "present" heaven is the 3rd heaven, according to your wording in the question.
Since "the tabernacle of God is with men" through the Holy Spirit since 70AD in the kingdom of God, the "New Jerusalem" the city of the Bride, that is the new earth in Scripture.
Heaven is where the dead, those sequestered in Hades were resurrected to at the end of the Old Covenant age in AD70.
When we die and go to heaven, many believe we will be of the same supernatural substance & state as Moses, Elijah & Jesus in the Transfiguration on the Mount.
This is how my entire 1st family & more looks like now.
I'm counting on it!
The "present" heaven is the 3rd heaven, according to your wording in the question.
Since "the tabernacle of God is with men" through the Holy Spirit since 70AD in the kingdom of God, the "New Jerusalem" the city of the Bride, that is the new earth in Scripture.
Heaven is where the dead, those sequestered in Hades were resurrected to at the end of the Old Covenant age in AD70.
When we die and go to heaven, many believe we will be of the same supernatural substance & state as Moses, Elijah & Jesus in the Transfiguration on the Mount.
This is how my entire 1st family & more looks like now.
I'm counting on it!
Re: What type of existence will we have in the present Heaven before the Resurrection
Scripture for all that are in Christ who have died will sleep until His return for His bride: Deut 31:16 (Moses); 2Samuel 7:12 (King David); Job 7:21; Job 14:12 (Job); Daniel 12:1,2; 1 Cor15:51; 2Peter 3:4; 1Thess 4:13-15; John 5:28,29; Rev21:1 (end time saints of God)
God said it, I believe it and no interpretations will sway me from the words of God.
Scripture for all that are in Christ who have died will sleep until His return for His bride: Deut 31:16 (Moses); 2Samuel 7:12 (King David); Job 7:21; Job 14:12 (Job); Daniel 12:1,2; 1 Cor15:51; 2Peter 3:4; 1Thess 4:13-15; John 5:28,29; Rev21:1 (end time saints of God)
God said it, I believe it and no interpretations will sway me from the words of God.
smaller
Member
Re: What type of existence will we have in the present Heaven before the Resurrection
Jesus said He will never leave us or forsake us. I don't believe Jesus lies in graves with dead people.
Sorry.
s
Jesus said He will never leave us or forsake us. I don't believe Jesus lies in graves with dead people.
Sorry.
s
L
Lehigh3
Guest
Re: What type of existence will we have in the present Heaven before the Resurrection
That's right, God said it AND He fulfilled it to the Bride! "We" today are not the "bride" we are God's children. The New Jerusalem, Lamb's wife is our "mother" if anything. We are not the wife. Israel was the wife. Unbelieving Israel played the harlot with the Beast. Harlot was Israel bc God had been married to her. Beast is a term in the Text for a gentile. God divorced Israel but would again marry her but in a new moral & spiritual way. The New Jerusalem bride is the spiritual Israel, of which we have also been brought in by faith.
We are not the Bride. The dead patriarchs of Israel ( ie: Abraham, Isaac, Jacob) plus the first century Hebrew Remnant were the Bride. The 1st century Gentile Christians were also invited to the Wedding. The wedding supper of the Lamb occurred 2,000 yrs. ago.. It's a spiritual event.
The New Jerusalem is not just a church, but the universal kingdom of God. It's a spiritual city. The Holy Spirit flows from God's Throne there. (Rev.22:1)
That's right, God said it AND He fulfilled it to the Bride! "We" today are not the "bride" we are God's children. The New Jerusalem, Lamb's wife is our "mother" if anything. We are not the wife. Israel was the wife. Unbelieving Israel played the harlot with the Beast. Harlot was Israel bc God had been married to her. Beast is a term in the Text for a gentile. God divorced Israel but would again marry her but in a new moral & spiritual way. The New Jerusalem bride is the spiritual Israel, of which we have also been brought in by faith.
We are not the Bride. The dead patriarchs of Israel ( ie: Abraham, Isaac, Jacob) plus the first century Hebrew Remnant were the Bride. The 1st century Gentile Christians were also invited to the Wedding. The wedding supper of the Lamb occurred 2,000 yrs. ago.. It's a spiritual event.
The New Jerusalem is not just a church, but the universal kingdom of God. It's a spiritual city. The Holy Spirit flows from God's Throne there. (Rev.22:1)
E
Elijah674
Guest
Re: What type of existence will we have in the present Heaven before the Resurrection
OK, me again.
Now for all before ones resurection. All in their graves are D-E-A-D. And in Heaven there are records only as to all of these ones past working faith as they lived (Eccl. 12:13-14) for their future judgement. Some will come up in their 'first' resurection to have eternal life, or will come up in their second resurrection to die again in the second death. Yet, they will only become a 'living soul again' at that time. When one has the breath of life, they are only then a [living soul], otherwise they are a dead soul.
Gen.2
[7] And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man [[became a living soul]].
When man dies he is a DEAD soul as we even see in Rev. 16:3!
[3] And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and [[every living soul died]] in the sea.
Gen. 3...
[3] '.... God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
[4] And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
And Eze. 18:4 + Eze. 18:20
[4] Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.
And what is their existence then as asked? 'They will be as though they [HAD NEVER BEEN]! GONE FROM ETERNITY. Obad. 1:16
So the question is? Who does one believe, God or satan? And the 'free choice' made.. has in bottom/line us 'teaching' one of the two being liars!
--Elijah
I see that the ones that came out of their graves after Christ's resurrection 'appeared' to many in their resurrected bodies. And we are told that flesh & blood will not be in heaven as per the sinful old flesh & blood. (as 'i' see it;))
And Adam was made in the image of God (both) + had the Holy Spirit (God) in him until he sinned, and then needed to be Born Again!
Anyway, I like the passage of Isa. 65
[19] And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.
[20] There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.
[21] And they [[shall build houses, and inhabit them;]] and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them.
[23] They shall not labour in vain, nor bring forth for trouble; for they are the seed of the blessed of the LORD, and their offspring with them.
[24] And it shall come to pass, that before they call, I will answer; and while they are yet speaking, I will hear.
[25] The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the LORD.
And while in Isaiah 65, lets look at Isa. 66 for some more Inspiration!
[22] For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.
[23] And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, [[and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD]].
So as I see it, we will be as Adam was before sin. (see Eccl. 3:15) And also the [CITY] will have no need of the sun because God will be the light there with NO night! Yet, we will have a country home away from the New Jerusalen City is the way that I read it!;)
--Elijah
OK, me again.
Now for all before ones resurection. All in their graves are D-E-A-D. And in Heaven there are records only as to all of these ones past working faith as they lived (Eccl. 12:13-14) for their future judgement. Some will come up in their 'first' resurection to have eternal life, or will come up in their second resurrection to die again in the second death. Yet, they will only become a 'living soul again' at that time. When one has the breath of life, they are only then a [living soul], otherwise they are a dead soul.
Gen.2
[7] And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man [[became a living soul]].
When man dies he is a DEAD soul as we even see in Rev. 16:3!
[3] And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and [[every living soul died]] in the sea.
Gen. 3...
[3] '.... God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
[4] And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
And Eze. 18:4 + Eze. 18:20
[4] Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.
And what is their existence then as asked? 'They will be as though they [HAD NEVER BEEN]! GONE FROM ETERNITY. Obad. 1:16
So the question is? Who does one believe, God or satan? And the 'free choice' made.. has in bottom/line us 'teaching' one of the two being liars!
--Elijah
Re: What type of existence will we have in the present Heaven before the Resurrection
The concept of an immortal soul comes from this…
Gen 3:4 And theserpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
What did God say?
Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
Gen 3:3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
Gen 3:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.
Job 14:14 If a man die, shall he live again? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come.
Psa 6:5 For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?
Psa 49:12 Nevertheless man being in honour abideth not: he is like the beasts that perish.
Psa 115:17 The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.
Psa 146:4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.
Ecc 3:19 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.
Ecc 3:20 All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.
Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
Eze 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine:the soul that sinneth, it shall die.
Eze 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father,neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Luk 13:3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
Luk 13:4 Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem?
Luk 13:5 I tell you,Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
The word perish…
G622
ἀπόλλυμι
apollumi
ap-ol'-loo-mee
From G575 and the base of G3639; to destroy fully (reflexively to perish, or lose), literally or figuratively: - destroy, die,lose, mar, perish.
Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Same word here for perish, G622 – apollumi
Where is David, a man after God’s own heart, today?
Act 2:29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is bothdead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
Act 2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
Do you believe what Paul says…
Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Word for death here is…
G2288
θάνατος
thanatos
than'-at-os
From G2348; (properly an adjective used as a noun) death (literally or figuratively): - X deadly, (be . . .) death.
Paul taught a resurrection of the dead…
1Co 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
Word for dead…
G3498
νεκρός
nekros
nek-ros'
From an apparently primary word νέκυς nekus (a corpse); dead (literally or figuratively; also as noun): - dead.
1Co 15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
Word for death…
G2288
θάνατος
thanatos
than'-at-os
From G2348; (properly an adjective used as a noun) death (literally or figuratively): - X deadly, (be . . .) death.
The word for dead is G3498 – nekros, same as verse 20.
1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
Word for die is…
G599
ἀποθνήσκω
apothnēskō
ap-oth-nace'-ko
From G575 and G2348; to die off (literally or figuratively):- be dead, death, die, lie a-dying, be slain (X with).
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
Word for dead is G3498 – nekros, the same as 1 Cor 15:20& 21
Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
Word for die is G599 – apothnesko, same as 1 Cor 15:22
Heb 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off,and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
Died in the faith, but have not received the promises yet. The word for died is G599 –apothnesko, same as 1 Cor 15:22 and Heb 9:27.
Continued in part 2...
The concept of an immortal soul comes from this…
Gen 3:4 And theserpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
What did God say?
Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
Gen 3:3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
Gen 3:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.
Job 14:14 If a man die, shall he live again? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come.
Psa 6:5 For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?
Psa 49:12 Nevertheless man being in honour abideth not: he is like the beasts that perish.
Psa 115:17 The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.
Psa 146:4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.
Ecc 3:19 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.
Ecc 3:20 All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.
Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
Eze 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine:the soul that sinneth, it shall die.
Eze 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father,neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Luk 13:3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
Luk 13:4 Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem?
Luk 13:5 I tell you,Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
The word perish…
G622
ἀπόλλυμι
apollumi
ap-ol'-loo-mee
From G575 and the base of G3639; to destroy fully (reflexively to perish, or lose), literally or figuratively: - destroy, die,lose, mar, perish.
Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Same word here for perish, G622 – apollumi
Where is David, a man after God’s own heart, today?
Act 2:29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is bothdead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
Act 2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
Do you believe what Paul says…
Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Word for death here is…
G2288
θάνατος
thanatos
than'-at-os
From G2348; (properly an adjective used as a noun) death (literally or figuratively): - X deadly, (be . . .) death.
Paul taught a resurrection of the dead…
1Co 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
Word for dead…
G3498
νεκρός
nekros
nek-ros'
From an apparently primary word νέκυς nekus (a corpse); dead (literally or figuratively; also as noun): - dead.
1Co 15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
Word for death…
G2288
θάνατος
thanatos
than'-at-os
From G2348; (properly an adjective used as a noun) death (literally or figuratively): - X deadly, (be . . .) death.
The word for dead is G3498 – nekros, same as verse 20.
1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
Word for die is…
G599
ἀποθνήσκω
apothnēskō
ap-oth-nace'-ko
From G575 and G2348; to die off (literally or figuratively):- be dead, death, die, lie a-dying, be slain (X with).
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
Word for dead is G3498 – nekros, the same as 1 Cor 15:20& 21
Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
Word for die is G599 – apothnesko, same as 1 Cor 15:22
Heb 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off,and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
Died in the faith, but have not received the promises yet. The word for died is G599 –apothnesko, same as 1 Cor 15:22 and Heb 9:27.
Continued in part 2...
Re: What type of existence will we have in the present Heaven before the Resurrection
Part 2
Souls die, Bible says so. What then is a soul?
Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
Word for soul is…
H5315
נפשׁ
nephesh
neh'-fesh
From H5314; properly a breathing creature, that is, animalor (abstractly) vitality; used very widely in a literal, accommodated orfigurative sense (bodily or mental): - any, appetite, beast, body, breath,creature, X dead (-ly), desire, X [dis-] contented, X fish, ghost, + greedy,he, heart (-y), (hath, X jeopardy of) life (X in jeopardy), lust, man, me,mind, mortality, one, own, person, pleasure, (her-, him-, my-, thy-) self, them(your) -selves, + slay, soul, + tablet, they, thing, (X she) will, X would have it.
Now man is a breathing creature, that’s what a soul is. What other creatures are souls?
Gen 1:20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life,and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.
Word life is a compound of H5315 - nephesh and…
H2416
חי
chay
khah'ee
From H2421; alive; hence raw (flesh); fresh (plant, water,year), strong; also (as noun, especially in the feminine singular and masculineplural) life (or living thing), whether literally or figuratively: - + age, alive, appetite, (wild) beast,company, congregation, life (-time), live (-ly), living (creature, thing),maintenance, + merry, multitude, + (be) old, quick, raw, running, springing,troop.
Gen 1:21 And Godcreated great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
Word for creature is H5315 – nephesh. Things that live in the ocean, whales, fish,oyster, clams, crabs, etc. are souls. Are they immortal souls?
Gen 1:24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.
Creeping things on the land are, you guessed it, H5315 –nephesh, souls. Are rabbits and skunks and lizards immortal souls?
Gen 1:30 And to everybeast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.
Life is again a compound of H5315 – nephesh and H2416 –chay.
Gen 2:19 And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.
Creature is H5315 – nephesh.
What then is a soul? A soul is a breathing creature that can die and just like Rover, when it dies, it dies all over. There is nothing immortal about a soul. This is why Paulsays…
Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Sin earns death, but life is a gift of God.
Our hope is a resurrection to life from the dead. Those in Christ die, are dead and as Eccl 9:5 says, know nothing. At the resurrection, we are made alive in Christ...
1Co 15:22 For as inAdam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward theythat are Christ's at his coming
Every man in his own order. The dead in Christ are not made alive again until the resurrection at His return.
Part 2
Souls die, Bible says so. What then is a soul?
Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
Word for soul is…
H5315
נפשׁ
nephesh
neh'-fesh
From H5314; properly a breathing creature, that is, animalor (abstractly) vitality; used very widely in a literal, accommodated orfigurative sense (bodily or mental): - any, appetite, beast, body, breath,creature, X dead (-ly), desire, X [dis-] contented, X fish, ghost, + greedy,he, heart (-y), (hath, X jeopardy of) life (X in jeopardy), lust, man, me,mind, mortality, one, own, person, pleasure, (her-, him-, my-, thy-) self, them(your) -selves, + slay, soul, + tablet, they, thing, (X she) will, X would have it.
Now man is a breathing creature, that’s what a soul is. What other creatures are souls?
Gen 1:20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life,and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.
Word life is a compound of H5315 - nephesh and…
H2416
חי
chay
khah'ee
From H2421; alive; hence raw (flesh); fresh (plant, water,year), strong; also (as noun, especially in the feminine singular and masculineplural) life (or living thing), whether literally or figuratively: - + age, alive, appetite, (wild) beast,company, congregation, life (-time), live (-ly), living (creature, thing),maintenance, + merry, multitude, + (be) old, quick, raw, running, springing,troop.
Gen 1:21 And Godcreated great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
Word for creature is H5315 – nephesh. Things that live in the ocean, whales, fish,oyster, clams, crabs, etc. are souls. Are they immortal souls?
Gen 1:24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.
Creeping things on the land are, you guessed it, H5315 –nephesh, souls. Are rabbits and skunks and lizards immortal souls?
Gen 1:30 And to everybeast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.
Life is again a compound of H5315 – nephesh and H2416 –chay.
Gen 2:19 And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.
Creature is H5315 – nephesh.
What then is a soul? A soul is a breathing creature that can die and just like Rover, when it dies, it dies all over. There is nothing immortal about a soul. This is why Paulsays…
Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Sin earns death, but life is a gift of God.
Our hope is a resurrection to life from the dead. Those in Christ die, are dead and as Eccl 9:5 says, know nothing. At the resurrection, we are made alive in Christ...
1Co 15:22 For as inAdam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward theythat are Christ's at his coming
Every man in his own order. The dead in Christ are not made alive again until the resurrection at His return.
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Re: What type of existence will we have in the present Heaven before the Resurrection
Saints seen in Jerusalem post resurrection:
Matthew 27:
52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose
53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
Pre-resurrection these existed in Abraham's bosom. Their hold prior to His Ascension.
The walking dead:
Matt. 8:
21 And another of his disciples said unto him, Lord, suffer me first to go and bury my father.
22 But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead.
We know that living people are 'dead' in their sins, making them the walking dead. We know that God is the God of the LIVING, not of dead people's bones lying in graves.
Matt. 8:
32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.
Who then lies sleeping in the dust?
Daniel 12:2
And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
It is not beyond comprehension that when believers part here they ARE with Jesus Christ, the LIVING GOD.
And that those who sleep in the dust will awaken LATER, at the FINAL JUDGMENT unto everlasting contempt and shame.
Every man in his own order means that at the point of death EACH SAINT rises at that time. That is 'their time.'
Abraham spoke well AFTER his flesh death as shown by Jesus in Luke 16.
s
Saints seen in Jerusalem post resurrection:
Matthew 27:
52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose
53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
Pre-resurrection these existed in Abraham's bosom. Their hold prior to His Ascension.
The walking dead:
Matt. 8:
21 And another of his disciples said unto him, Lord, suffer me first to go and bury my father.
22 But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead.
We know that living people are 'dead' in their sins, making them the walking dead. We know that God is the God of the LIVING, not of dead people's bones lying in graves.
Matt. 8:
32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.
Who then lies sleeping in the dust?
Daniel 12:2
And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
It is not beyond comprehension that when believers part here they ARE with Jesus Christ, the LIVING GOD.
And that those who sleep in the dust will awaken LATER, at the FINAL JUDGMENT unto everlasting contempt and shame.
Every man in his own order means that at the point of death EACH SAINT rises at that time. That is 'their time.'
Abraham spoke well AFTER his flesh death as shown by Jesus in Luke 16.
s
Re: What type of existence will we have in the present Heaven before the Resurrection
Seriously!!! you are using this verse as your defense!!!
Hebrews 13:5 has nothing to do with those who are in the grave as they are dead (sleep) until the coming of the Lord who for now sits in the third heaven at the right hand of God and not dead in a grave.
1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1Th 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
How much more scriptural evidence do you need that all who have died are in the grave until Jesus returns and at that time will resurrect those at of the graves to join those who are alive at His coming and will then separate the wheat from the tares and Judgement will be passed on all people of the earth. Some to the resurrection to Christ and the others to the resurrection of damnation.
Seriously!!! you are using this verse as your defense!!!
Hebrews 13:5 has nothing to do with those who are in the grave as they are dead (sleep) until the coming of the Lord who for now sits in the third heaven at the right hand of God and not dead in a grave.
1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1Th 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
How much more scriptural evidence do you need that all who have died are in the grave until Jesus returns and at that time will resurrect those at of the graves to join those who are alive at His coming and will then separate the wheat from the tares and Judgement will be passed on all people of the earth. Some to the resurrection to Christ and the others to the resurrection of damnation.
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Re: What type of existence will we have in the present Heaven before the Resurrection
To be absent from the body is to BE PRESENT with The Lord. There is no way around that matter.
Eternal life is a 'present tense' matter that does not encompass sleeping in graves. Sleeping in a grave is NOT eternal life.
1 John 5:13
These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
Have is present tense. Not a 'to be delivered' matter. The last day for any believer is the day they leave their flesh behind and are clothed with their eternal garb in Him, with Him.
God does not lie dead in the Grave, sleeping with the Saints. If your sleep theory is correct, then sleeping in the grave He must be ALSO if He NEVER leaves or forsakes us.
That just ain't the case. God is The God of the Living.
s
To be absent from the body is to BE PRESENT with The Lord. There is no way around that matter.
Eternal life is a 'present tense' matter that does not encompass sleeping in graves. Sleeping in a grave is NOT eternal life.
1 John 5:13
These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
Have is present tense. Not a 'to be delivered' matter. The last day for any believer is the day they leave their flesh behind and are clothed with their eternal garb in Him, with Him.
God does not lie dead in the Grave, sleeping with the Saints. If your sleep theory is correct, then sleeping in the grave He must be ALSO if He NEVER leaves or forsakes us.
That just ain't the case. God is The God of the Living.
s