I believe scripture presents death as seperation. Physical death is seperation of the body from the soul. Spiritural death is seperation of the soul from God.
Life in scripture is presented as union. Union with body and union with God.
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I believe scripture presents death as seperation. Physical death is seperation of the body from the soul. Spiritural death is seperation of the soul from God.
Life in scripture is presented as union. Union with body and union with God.
To say that the human soul is immortal is unscriptural. Only those who believe in the Son are given eternal life. I refer you to John 3:16. Sorry to disappoint you that the unrighteous dead are not given eternal life...but if you have scripture that teaches that the unrighteous are also given eternal life would you please share that with us?
Prove to me the word translated in scripture "death" means "cease to exist".
I believe you are translating that term death and life based on what you experience in this life and not examining the meaning behind the words death and life.
Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
die:
H4191
מוּת
mûth
mooth
A primitive root; to die (literally or figuratively); causatively to kill: - X at all, X crying, (be) dead (body, man, one), (put to, worthy of) death, destroy (-er), (cause to, be like to, must) die, kill, necro [-mancer], X must needs, slay, X surely, X very suddenly, X in [no] wise.
OK, explain why the word for die really doesn't mean what it is, but rather life in another place.
"Thou shalt surely die - מות תמות moth tamuth; Literally, a death thou shalt die; or, dying thou shalt die. Thou shalt not only die spiritually, by losing the life of God, but from that moment thou shalt become mortal, and shalt continue in a dying state till thou die. This we find literally accomplished; every moment of man’s life may be considered as an act of dying, till soul and body are separated. Other meanings have been given of this passage, but they are in general either fanciful or incorrect." - Adam Clarke
How do you define death? Cease to exist? Vanish?
If that is the case why did Adam continue to live?
If you define death as I and others do death means seperation.
In that day Adam was seperated from God. He was "dead" in his sin. He died a spiritural death when he sinned. (seperation of soul from God) Later he experienced the physical death. (seperation body from soul)
Eph. 2
2 You were dead (seperated from God) through the trespasses and sins 2 in which you once lived, following the course of this world, following the ruler of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work among those who are disobedient. 3 All of us once lived among them in the passions of our flesh, following the desires of flesh and senses, and we were by nature children of wrath, like everyone else. 4 But God, who is rich in mercy, out of the great love with which he loved us 5 even when we were dead through our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (union)—by grace you have been saved—
Scriture does not support the idea we "cease to exist"
No, I actually refer to dictionaries for definitions of words. It seems to work better than making up my own.
Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
soul:
H5315
נפשׁ
nephesh
neh'-fesh
From H5314; properly a breathing creature, that is, animal or (abstractly) vitality; used very widely in a literal, accommodated or figurative sense (bodily or mental): - any, appetite, beast, body, breath, creature, X dead (-ly), desire, X [dis-] contented, X fish, ghost, + greedy, he, heart (-y), (hath, X jeopardy of) life (X in jeopardy), lust, man, me, mind, mortality, one, own, person, pleasure, (her-, him-, my-, thy-) self, them (your) -selves, + slay, soul, + tablet, they, thing, (X she) will, X would have it.
Just for fun, let's see what else is a living soul in these early chapters of Genesis...
Gen 1:20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.
Here the word for life is nephesh, H5315, so these moving creatures in the water are souls.
Gen 1:21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
Here the word for creature is nephesh, same thing that Adam was, a living soul.
Gen 1:24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.
Land creatures, spiders, earthworms and termites included, are nephesh, living souls.
Gen 2:19 And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.
Here we see Adam naming the nephesh, the living souls. Includes, hawks, pigeons, skunks and weasels. They are all living souls.
So, as per this...
Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
G2288
θάνατος
thanatos
than'-at-os
From G2348; (properly an adjective used as a noun) death (literally or figuratively): - X deadly, (be . . .) death.
We were dead (did not have eternal life, doomed to death) and we were given life (eternal life) by grace. You're concept is that we already have life, it is just a matter of throwing the switch to go one place or another.
All according to whom you believe...
Christ: Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
destroy:
G622
ἀπόλλυμι
apollumi
ap-ol'-loo-mee
From G575 and the base of G3639; to destroy fully (reflexively to perish, or lose), literally or figuratively: - destroy, die, lose, mar, perish.
The Devil:
Gen 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
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Actually you have something even harder to prove. Prove to me that those who don't believe on the Son have eternal life. Now maybe "death" means to continue to live to you but not to me. You see I look at death as the end of the body and the "second death" as the end of the soul. You obviously do not understand what death means or you wouldn't have to be proven what it is. Anyone can ask anyone else to prove something to them and then turn around and deny it...Prove to me that the sky is blue.To say that the human soul is immortal is unscriptural. Only those who believe in the Son are given eternal life. I refer you to John 3:16. Sorry to disappoint you that the unrighteous dead are not given eternal life...but if you have scripture that teaches that the unrighteous are also given eternal life would you please share that with us?
Prove to me the word translated in scripture "death" means "cease to exist".
I believe you are translating that term death and life based on what you experience in this life and not examining the meaning behind the words death and life.
Actually you have something even harder to prove. Prove to me that those who don't believe on the Son have eternal life. Now maybe "death" means to continue to live to you but not to me. You see I look at death as the end of the body and the "second death" as the end of the soul. You obviously do not understand what death means or you wouldn't have to be proven what it is. Anyone can ask anyone else to prove something to them and then turn around and deny it...Prove to me that the sky is blue.To say that the human soul is immortal is unscriptural. Only those who believe in the Son are given eternal life. I refer you to John 3:16. Sorry to disappoint you that the unrighteous dead are not given eternal life...but if you have scripture that teaches that the unrighteous are also given eternal life would you please share that with us?
Prove to me the word translated in scripture "death" means "cease to exist".
I believe you are translating that term death and life based on what you experience in this life and not examining the meaning behind the words death and life.
Just to add a touch of interest to your quote Grappler...
Eze 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.
Eze 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
die
H4191
מוּת
mûth
mooth
A primitive root; to die (literally or figuratively); causatively to kill: - X at all, X crying, (be) dead (body, man, one), (put to, worthy of) death, destroy (-er), (cause to, be like to, must) die, kill, necro [-mancer], X must needs, slay, X surely, X very suddenly, X in [no] wise.
Same word as Gen 2:17 and there is nothing at all to suggest that it means a continued existence in another place. The word means death.
That should just about cover it.lol I wonder if p31woman read this??Actually you have something even harder to prove. Prove to me that those who don't believe on the Son have eternal life. Now maybe "death" means to continue to live to you but not to me. You see I look at death as the end of the body and the "second death" as the end of the soul. You obviously do not understand what death means or you wouldn't have to be proven what it is. Anyone can ask anyone else to prove something to them and then turn around and deny it...Prove to me that the sky is blue.
Just to add a touch of interest to your quote Grappler...
Eze 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.
Eze 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
die
H4191
מוּת
mûth
mooth
A primitive root; to die (literally or figuratively); causatively to kill: - X at all, X crying, (be) dead (body, man, one), (put to, worthy of) death, destroy (-er), (cause to, be like to, must) die, kill, necro [-mancer], X must needs, slay, X surely, X very suddenly, X in [no] wise.
Same word as Gen 2:17 and there is nothing at all to suggest that it means a continued existence in another place. The word means death.
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That should just about cover it.lol I wonder if p31woman read this??
To get someone's attention, you can also type @username and it sends notification. :D
[MENTION=93981]P31Woman[/MENTION]
Awww....is urky not getting enough attention?That should just about cover it.lol I wonder if p31woman read this??
To get someone's attention, you can also type @username and it sends notification. :D
[MENTION=93981]P31Woman[/MENTION]
That should just about cover it.lol I wonder if p31woman read this??Actually you have something even harder to prove. Prove to me that those who don't believe on the Son have eternal life. Now maybe "death" means to continue to live to you but not to me. You see I look at death as the end of the body and the "second death" as the end of the soul. You obviously do not understand what death means or you wouldn't have to be proven what it is. Anyone can ask anyone else to prove something to them and then turn around and deny it...Prove to me that the sky is blue.
Just to add a touch of interest to your quote Grappler...
Eze 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.
Eze 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
die
H4191
מוּת
mûth
mooth
A primitive root; to die (literally or figuratively); causatively to kill: - X at all, X crying, (be) dead (body, man, one), (put to, worthy of) death, destroy (-er), (cause to, be like to, must) die, kill, necro [-mancer], X must needs, slay, X surely, X very suddenly, X in [no] wise.
Same word as Gen 2:17 and there is nothing at all to suggest that it means a continued existence in another place. The word means death.
Not yet. I am on a Tax deadline and Uncle Sam just does not seem to understand that I am just getting involved in a hot new debate on the internet! The IRS is just so bossy! I am trying to wrap this stuff up and hope to be back in full force........so have a coke on me boys...
...it should not take too much longer. I will be back![MENTION=93656]urk[/MENTION], Thanks man I did not know how people were doing that!That should just about cover it.lol I wonder if p31woman read this??
To get someone's attention, you can also type @username and it sends notification. :D
@P31Woman
n2thelight
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- Jun 27, 2007
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Actually Adam did die that day,physically!!!And scripture very much supports the idea of ceasing to exist,as even satan will...
Ezekiel 28:18
"Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee."
Ezekiel 28:19
"All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more."
n2thelight
Member
- Jun 27, 2007
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Death Means “Separation” ’
Let’s start with the strange theory that death doesn’t really mean death, but “separation.” For example, consider Paul’s unmistakable statement in this previously viewed passage:
1.) If we take “eternal life” literally, we must also take “death” literally. God clearly declares in Romans 6:23 above, as well as numerous other passages, that the wages of sin is death and that eternal life is a gift to those in right-standing with him. So death is promised as a punishment for ungodly sinners and life is promised as a gift for the righteous. In such a context as this, every law of language and common sense agrees that if we take the promise of life literally we must also take the punishment of death literally. If one is literal then both are literal. If there is to be no real death for sinners there will be no real life for saints (McFarland 25, 27).
Adherents of eternal torment can insist that death only means “separation” all they want, but the simple fact is that the opposite of life is death. What word could better describe the end of life than ‘death’? The only way a person can accept the view of eternal torture is to believe that death does not mean death, that die does not mean die, that destroy does not mean destroy, that perish does not mean perish and that destruction does not mean destruction.
2.) Physical death is death of the body. While most Christians believe the soul (mind and spirit) survives the body, we cannot ignore the biblical fact that “the body without the spirit is dead” (James 2:26). The body is not itself separated; it is dead. It no longer has life in it because death is the opposite of life. Death means death, it’s not complicated. Thanatos, the Greek word translated as death in Romans 6:23 above, is used most often simply in reference to this death, the first death
This next objection goes hand in hand with the objection just examined. Under the guise of “interpretation” many sincere Christian people add the word “spiritual” to the numerous plain statements which promise death to unrepentant sinners. For instance, these people believe Romans 6:23 should read: “For the wages of sin is spiritual death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ our Lord.” They would then translate spiritual death here to mean eternal “separation of man from God because of sin” (Dake 619). The obvious problem with doing such is that none of the multitude of biblical texts which promise death and destruction as the ultimate wage of sin contain this word “spiritual.”
Excerpted from the below
http://hell-know.net/#f
1.) If we take “eternal life” literally, we must also take “death” literally. God clearly declares in Romans 6:23 above, as well as numerous other passages, that the wages of sin is death and that eternal life is a gift to those in right-standing with him. So death is promised as a punishment for ungodly sinners and life is promised as a gift for the righteous. In such a context as this, every law of language and common sense agrees that if we take the promise of life literally we must also take the punishment of death literally. If one is literal then both are literal. If there is to be no real death for sinners there will be no real life for saints (McFarland 25, 27).
Adherents of eternal torment can insist that death only means “separation” all they want, but the simple fact is that the opposite of life is death. What word could better describe the end of life than ‘death’? The only way a person can accept the view of eternal torture is to believe that death does not mean death, that die does not mean die, that destroy does not mean destroy, that perish does not mean perish and that destruction does not mean destruction.
2.) Physical death is death of the body. While most Christians believe the soul (mind and spirit) survives the body, we cannot ignore the biblical fact that “the body without the spirit is dead” (James 2:26). The body is not itself separated; it is dead. It no longer has life in it because death is the opposite of life. Death means death, it’s not complicated. Thanatos, the Greek word translated as death in Romans 6:23 above, is used most often simply in reference to this death, the first death
‘What About Spiritual Death?’
This next objection goes hand in hand with the objection just examined. Under the guise of “interpretation” many sincere Christian people add the word “spiritual” to the numerous plain statements which promise death to unrepentant sinners. For instance, these people believe Romans 6:23 should read: “For the wages of sin is spiritual death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ our Lord.” They would then translate spiritual death here to mean eternal “separation of man from God because of sin” (Dake 619). The obvious problem with doing such is that none of the multitude of biblical texts which promise death and destruction as the ultimate wage of sin contain this word “spiritual.”
Excerpted from the below
http://hell-know.net/#f
Butch5
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I think we have to understand what you mean by immortal. In the truest sense of the word no one is or will be immortal. Paul said, God the Father alone has immortality. Believers, after the resurrection will have perpetual life, but that life will flow from the Father, it is not something that the believers will possess within himself. For the unbeliever there is no immortality.
n2thelight
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Like the way you said that!!!
Butch5
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- Jul 16, 2012
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