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When Did The Church Begin?

Allen Wynne said:
Experience dear friend.
Through the years, people tend to want to hear themselves talk and impress others while the truth goes right by them.
That's why I addressed Reba, she understands.
Click to expand...
but for the rest of us her post was good - so you brought a private unrelated fight into this good thread - iow we were having a good time sharing thoughts/opinions of the topic - and you did not contribute in a good way - it's uncomfortable for the rest of us to be included in your private unrelated issue

God Bless you my friend
 
Truthfrees said:
but for the rest of us her post was good - so you brought a private unrelated fight into this good thread - iow we were having a good time sharing thoughts/opinions of the topic - and you did not contribute in a good way - it's uncomfortable for the rest of us to be included in your private unrelated issue

God Bless you my friend
Click to expand...
No, you misunderstand
Reba quoted the truth and everyone just keep on talking with out giving her comment any recognition as being the truth.
I simply mentioned to Reba how people always do this.
You, on the other hand, kept talking about other things giving the impression that what you and others had to say was more important.
 
Allen Wynne said:
No, you misunderstand
Reba quoted the truth and everyone just keep on talking with out giving her comment any recognition as being the truth.
I simply mentioned to Reba how people always do this.
You, on the other hand, kept talking about other things giving the impression that what you and others had to say was more important.
Click to expand...
o i see - sorry for misunderstanding your meaning - God bless you
 
wondering said:
I sometimes post the Early Church Fathers to show what the early Christians believed about our faith.
I'm told at times that they have no importance and their views of no value but only the bible has value.
The letters already existed and the gospel was known.

So my question would be:

When do YOU believe the church began?
I believe it began in Acts.
Click to expand...

I think that is a great question. Obviously you are speaking of the New and Everlasting Covenant, but I was pondering the God head after reading your question.
John1:1
John 1 KJV

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
We know all written scripture is the Word, all dialogue in the OT and NT with man is the WORD.
We know any meeting with God, is the Word, like Abraham was in the presents of the Word , when he was told Sara would have a son.
We know the Word spoke to Adam and Eve , Enoch, all the prophets, Melchizedek spoke to Abraham , I believe Melchizedek was the Word manifest, in what would be called supernatural apparition, not flesh like He would be when Incarnated.
The Word appeared when He spoke to Abraham concerning Sodom and Gomorrah . So when was the Word's church established, or rather when did it begin?
I believe it began at the establishment of the Covenant with Abraham but men even prior to this like Enoch heard the Word. With that said I believe His church was established with the Ancient Hebrews. Christ on the Cross said , "It is COMPLETION" and then gave up His Spirit. Christ is the fulfillment of the Law and in Him all is made New, His birth, death and resurrection has brought all things full circle. His Religion is complete.

Now, since Christ is the Word made flesh, He has been around since the first words penned by the Hebrews. And is Himself the beginning, He simply decided to become Man and make it all completion. If I may, this is only my perspective, I could be wrong, but isn't Judaism
simply the conception of Christianity, think about it, with all beginnings like pregnancy for instance, there is a conception. It is all the Word, but it is completion with His human birth. He is the fullness birthed, at His coming, everything prior was the development, and growth . He the child birthed, is the Faith complete. So, I believe His religion began with his first spoken word to man , but His covenant with Abraham is the first- of speaking His church into existence, and is completion with His birth, death and resurrection.
And to me the Jews who do not receive Him in essence abort their own lives, like a child not permitted to come to full gestational period, to deliverance. For even Abraham rejoiced to see His day.
John 8:56-59 King James Version (KJV)

56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.

57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?

58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

59 Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.
I am not bashing Jews either my Lord is a Jew so that is not what I am doing. I am simply stating the obvious, many Jews to this day still reject Yeshua the Messiah.
Maybe this can give greater insight to this:
Romans 2:28-29
The Jews and the Law
…28A man is not a Jew because he is one outwardly, nor is circumcision only outward and physical. 29No, a man is a Jew because he is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a man’s praise does not come from men, but from God.
Think about this: We all come from the same two people. God detroyed the earth with flood, the earth is repopulated by the eight preserved on the Ark. So, what makes a Hebrew a Hebrew and a gentile a gentile? I know this is going off topic a bit, but my thoughts are flowing one to the next, I hope all will be tied together at the end.
So anyways, Abraham is the FIRST to be called Hebrew:
Abraham was the first person ever to be referred to as a “Hebrew” (Ivri). The designation “Hebrew” refers to the fact that he descended from Eber (Eber = Ivri in Hebrew) and that he came from the “other side” (ever) of the Euphrates River. Hebrew means : Traversed.
Therefore, it would seem to me a Hebrew is one who receives the Word. It is a spiritual state of being. This makes sense to me considering what John 8 says. It seems it is God's covenant that makes you Jewish and the fullness of the Covenant is Yeshua Hamashiach . Think about it, we all come from the same two people. Being Hebrew is being in God's covenant. God said to Abraham your seed will number the stars of the heavens. That covenant promise was fulfilled in Mary and Christ birth is the birth of all in the nation of God. All who believe in Him are Hebrew in spirit. So, a gentile is actually a pagan once converted and circumcised in spirit, Hebrew. Hebrew is a state of being. Hence is why John wrote what he wrote.
If one claiming to be a Jew rejects the Messiah , he rejects the Word and Spirit of God and therefore his heritage.
So, Yeshua's church began with His covenant with Abraham for sure. My opinion.
Matthew 18:20
Conclusion:20For where two or three gather together in My name, there am I with them.” and today anywhere people gather in His name He is there, even in this forum God Bless!
 
Last edited:
Anto9us said:
pentecost

Act 2:1
And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
Act 2:2
And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
Act 2:3
And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
Act 2:4
And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
Click to expand...
I agree. Christianity began long before but the body of Christ as those faithfully linked to Emmanuel is spoken of in Acts 2.
 
God Is My Judge said:
I think that is a great question. Obviously you are speaking of the New and Everlasting Covenant, but I was pondering the God head after reading your question.
John1:1
John 1 KJV

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
We know all written scripture is the Word, all dialogue in the OT and NT with man is the WORD.
We know any meeting with God, is the Word, like Abraham was in the presents of the Word , when he was told Sara would have a son.
We know the Word spoke to Adam and Eve , Enoch, all the prophets, Melchizedek spoke to Abraham , I believe Melchizedek was the Word manifest, in what would be called supernatural apparition, not flesh like He would be when Incarnated.
The Word appeared when He spoke to Abraham concerning Sodom and Gomorrah . So when was the Word's church established, or rather when did it begin?
I believe it began at the establishment of the Covenant with Abraham but men even prior to this like Enoch heard the Word. With that said I believe His church was established with the Ancient Hebrews. Christ on the Cross said , "It is COMPLETION" and then gave up His Spirit. Christ is the fulfillment of the Law and in Him all is made New, His birth, death and resurrection has brought all things full circle. His Religion is complete.

Now, since Christ is the Word made flesh, He has been around since the first words penned by the Hebrews. And is Himself the beginning, He simply decided to become Man and make it all completion. If I may, this is only my perspective, I could be wrong, but isn't Judaism
simply the conception of Christianity, think about it, with all beginnings like pregnancy for instance, there is a conception. It is all the Word, but it is completion with His human birth. He is the fullness birthed, at His coming, everything prior was the development, and growth . He the child birthed, is the Faith complete. So, I believe His religion began with his first spoken word to man , but His covenant with Abraham is the first- of speaking His church into existence, and is completion with His birth, death and resurrection.
And to me the Jews who do not receive Him in essence abort their own lives, like a child not permitted to come to full gestational period, to deliverance. For even Abraham rejoiced to see His day.
John 8:56-59 King James Version (KJV)

56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.

57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?

58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

59 Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.
I am not bashing Jews either my Lord is a Jew so that is not what I am doing. I am simply stating the obvious, many Jews to this day still reject Yeshua the Messiah.
Maybe this can give greater insight to this:
Romans 2:28-29
The Jews and the Law
…28A man is not a Jew because he is one outwardly, nor is circumcision only outward and physical. 29No, a man is a Jew because he is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a man’s praise does not come from men, but from God.
Think about this: We all come from the same two people. God detroyed the earth with flood, the earth is repopulated by the eight preserved on the Ark. So, what makes a Hebrew a Hebrew and a gentile a gentile? I know this is going off topic a bit, but my thoughts are flowing one to the next, I hope all will be tied together at the end.
So anyways, Abraham is the FIRST to be called Hebrew:
Abraham was the first person ever to be referred to as a “Hebrew” (Ivri). The designation “Hebrew” refers to the fact that he descended from Eber (Eber = Ivri in Hebrew) and that he came from the “other side” (ever) of the Euphrates River. Hebrew means : Traversed.
Therefore, it would seem to me a Hebrew is one who receives the Word. It is a spiritual state of being. This makes sense to me considering what John 8 says. It seems it is God's covenant that makes you Jewish and the fullness of the Covenant is Yeshua Hamashiach . Think about it, we all come from the same two people. Being Hebrew is being in God's covenant. God said to Abraham your seed will number the stars of the heavens. That covenant promise was fulfilled in Mary and Christ birth is the birth of all in the nation of God. All who believe in Him are Hebrew in spirit. So, a gentile is actually a pagan once converted and circumcised in spirit, Hebrew. Hebrew is a state of being. Hence is why John wrote what he wrote.
If one claiming to be a Jew rejects the Messiah , he rejects the Word and Spirit of God and therefore his heritage.
So, Yeshua's church began with His covenant with Abraham for sure. My opinion.
Matthew 18:20
Conclusion:20For where two or three gather together in My name, there am I with them.” and today anywhere people gather in His name He is there, even in this forum God Bless!
Click to expand...
You put a lot out there.
God promised Abraham that he would be a father of many nations.
This didn't happen till Jesus was resurrected and the apostles began to preach and teach after the ascension.

Also, I'd like to say that God revealed Himself to man through the Hebrews, Israelites and Jews in many ways - none worked. We could not have the correct rapport with God until He sent His only Son so that we could actually see Him and be taught by Him - and also to pay a ransom for our sin and sins. So Jesus was the final revelation and the one that causesd the NEW church (small c) to be created. The Jews failed in recognizing Jesus as the Messiah.

I believe that at the time of Abraham the Hebrew religion was in effect...
not the "religion" Jesus began. Which was not really a religion as many others, but can be said to be a relationship with God.
 
3.For I will proclaim the name of Jehovah:
Ascribe ye greatness unto our God.
4 The Rock, his work is perfect;
For all his ways are justice.
Deuteronomy 32: 3-4


1.Moreover, brothers, I would not that you should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; 2 And were all baptized to Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 3And did all eat the same spiritual meat; 4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ. 1 Corinthians 10:1-4

I believe the church foundation is the Rock that is Christ. When Emmanuel told Simon Bar-Jonah, who is Simon son of Jonah, , upon this rock I shall build my church, Emmanuel was speaking of himself who was the Rock, the foundation, referred to in the old testament. The church was not a structure to be built by the hands of man. Rather, it was to be the body of faithful united as one fold, in the teaching of Emmanuel.
Petrus, Simon Bar-Jonah, was given the keys to that church meaning he was to go forth in the great commission and open the minds of the lost who populated many tribes, who were many and scattered sheep, to the truth of God. And thus lead them to find repentance through the door that is God's grace. Awaiting the seeker to open it , their mind, and heart, and allow the Holy Spirit to take up residence within.

The church began with Christ laying the foundation. The anointing of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost set forth the dutiful one's upon their mission to gather the scattered sheep into one fold. One church.


To God be the glory. Forever and ever, Amen.
 
wondering said:
I sometimes post the Early Church Fathers to show what the early Christians believed about our faith.
I'm told at times that they have no importance and their views of no value but only the bible has value.
The letters already existed and the gospel was known.

So my question would be:

When do YOU believe the church began?
I believe it began in Acts.
Click to expand...

I agree with the rest of the group the CHURCH AS WE KNOW IT started at Penticost.
AND
I can agree that the Plan for the PROPLE OF GOD that is all called out started much eariler.

Gen 3:21 Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them. 22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever: 23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.

God, in the garden, shed blood to cover sin and shame. He taught Adam about the sin offering and that the Messiah would one day come. ADAM LEFT THE GARDEN UNDER THE BLOOD, IN RIGHT STANDING WITH GOD! Looking forward to the PROMICE! Still a free moral agent with the right to choose to obey GOD or not! Adam knew that he could choose to obey God this time and make the sacrifices God told him to make. He was still the highest of God’s creation, still had dominion over the world, and still could make Free Will Choices.
It is foolish to say Adam after he disobeyed God was so sinful that he could not Know God. From WHAT TREE did he eat? I thought it was the “Knowledge of Good and Evil”. 22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil:

Paul says there was a Mystery that was revealed to only the Apostles, I think he ment the OT Leaders did not understand Grace they only knew the Promice and the LAW, But Jesus the Messiah was promised long before and He IS THE Covenant.
Pauls mystery is that all are saved by Grace. Different rules and covenants and levels of revelation but all are saved by GRACE.
 
RevSRE said:
I agree with the rest of the group the CHURCH AS WE KNOW IT started at Penticost.
AND
I can agree that the Plan for the PROPLE OF GOD that is all called out started much eariler.

Gen 3:21 Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them. 22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever: 23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.

God, in the garden, shed blood to cover sin and shame. He taught Adam about the sin offering and that the Messiah would one day come. ADAM LEFT THE GARDEN UNDER THE BLOOD, IN RIGHT STANDING WITH GOD! Looking forward to the PROMICE! Still a free moral agent with the right to choose to obey GOD or not! Adam knew that he could choose to obey God this time and make the sacrifices God told him to make. He was still the highest of God’s creation, still had dominion over the world, and still could make Free Will Choices.
It is foolish to say Adam after he disobeyed God was so sinful that he could not Know God. From WHAT TREE did he eat? I thought it was the “Knowledge of Good and Evil”. 22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil:

Paul says there was a Mystery that was revealed to only the Apostles, I think he ment the OT Leaders did not understand Grace they only knew the Promice and the LAW, But Jesus the Messiah was promised long before and He IS THE Covenant.
Pauls mystery is that all are saved by Grace. Different rules and covenants and levels of revelation but all are saved by GRACE.
Click to expand...
I also agree that there was a rapport between Adam and God when he was banished from the Garden. Also, Genesis 4:1 In childbirth, Eve remembered the Lord and said the He helped her. God clothed them with the first shedding of blood, as you said.

Man had free will to choose to eat of the fruit, and the free will was not ever taken away from man because God declared that it was good.
Genesis 1:31

As to the mystery, I also concur. In the O.T. the Messiah was awaited. Men had to have righteousness due to their own good works. Grace was to come with Jesus, and our righteousness is now in Him.
 
reba said:
There was grace in the OT
Click to expand...

Hi reba, The very first coats of skins were Gods first act of Grace. And His promise of Grace was first prophesied in Gen. 3:15; John 13:18. The mystery was not God's grace, The mystery was not the Church. The mystery was the relationship of the Church to Christ as a marriage is to man and wife (Eph. 5:31-33) and that the Gentile would be included in an equal brotherhood with The called out of Israel (Eph. 3:1-21). Most people do not understand Christ and the Church and make it that God rejected Israel and now the Church has taken it's place. (That is carnal religion). If men knew the mystery of the relationship, Christ has given us as His body, and the abundance of grace given to the Church, it is staggering. But most Christian's so called just accept Christ to keep from hell and all that they can get out of Christ as if thou he was a bank or genie in a bottle. The born again believer will suffer loss in this world because the world hates us...it hated Christ (John 15:17-19). There are actually people on the cfnet that hate me. I do not hate them, but I'am taken back by The Spirit of their singling out others to build up a negative atmosphere against sound doctrine. Contending for the Faith is not popular of those who hold to other doctrines. The Grace of God to the Church is boundless. (Rom. 5:17-21).
In The abundance of His Mercy and Grace,
Douglas Summers
 
there was GRACE when a ram caught in the thicket was sacrificed instead of Isaac

Douglas Summers said:
God rejected Israel and now the Church has taken it's place. (That is carnal religion).
Click to expand...

No, Douglas, I cannot hold with the Replacement Theology. I don't hate you, and if the world hates you -- well, goes with the territory.

Despite pre-existing Grace all along, Christ said "Upon this rock I WILL BUILD (future tense) My Church"

What was THE ROCK? Not Simon himself, but the FAITH that revealed something to Simon Peter, and ultimately THE ROCK was Christ Himself.

1Co 10:1
Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;

1Co 10:2
And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;

1Co 10:3
And did all eat the same spiritual meat;

1Co 10:4
And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
 
I sort of cringe when the Church is described as "the New Israel".

No.

Christ established a "New Covenant" - yes.

But what Paul wrote of as "the Israel of God" -- something else again than a "New Israel"
 
reba said:
There was grace in the OT
Click to expand...
God always loved man and always had Grace for us. This is why He always sought to save us.

However, in the OT the Mosaic Covenant required man to obey God but did not have the means to do so.
He had to follow all the laws but with no power.

In the NT we still have to follow the moral laws, but now, through God's grace, we find this power in the Holy Spirit. We follow the law with the grace of God fully visible to anyone who wishes to see it manifested.

So the OT was by law
The NT is by grace
 
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