When did the Law pass or has it passed away?

[About the Son of God]

Mitspa,


I'm not sure what you mean by "throughout the NEW TESTAMENT"; Could you show me some examples from Matthew Mark Luke and John ? or do you just mean statements we hear from Paul himself?

I'm thinking that Paul is a lawyer, and whenever I read a lawyer -- I look for lawyer talk.
Sometimes lawyers say tricky things in order to get people to do the right thing -- even if for an imperfect reason.
I mean; Salvation doesn't depend on erudite knowledge; for even the simple can be saved through Faith.
So Paul was free to use his judgment about what to say -- and what to withhold from us, in order to save as many as possible; which means he likely tried to use the most psychologically powerful of arguments -- even if not those which are the *clearest* possible truth. ( Even Jesus says, I have many things to teach -- but "you" can not bear it now ).

My study of Paul is getting into technicalities that I don't think affect my salvation; but at the same time, I want to make sure I understand his teaching well; for I desire to know Jesus Christ more fully in terms of the Hebrew as well as Gentile perspectives. (The O.P. attracted me, specifically, because of some things Jethro Bodine mentioned.)

Here's a woman's issue from Paul, that is very much a part of the O.P.; but also notice how he ties it to the old testament Law.

1Corinthians 14:34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.

Yet this law is not exactly the same law that Paul speaks of in Romans; and it is very frustrating to try and figure out which applies where and why and how; and I mean this especially after studying the Old Testament women who show that there is indeed a hierarchy, based on the temple platforms, but also that women could be full fledged leaders in public; ( One of the Judges, in Joshua, for example is a woman -- but God doesn't allow her to act the same as men judges, when it comes to killing; his plan for women is clearly different. ). And I could cite other examples as well.
But, I'll leave off writing -- for I myself feel like I'm droning on....

 

[cherovis]

The law was given to Moses to the Israelites. They are the chosen people of God. They are His bride. When Jesus came, He said He came to fulfill the law & the prophesies, Mat 5:17. Jesus came first for the chosen people of Israel. Mat 15:24. But then He extended that grace to the gentile. The gentile has never lived under the law. We have always been under grace, the grace from God through the Lord Jesus Christ, amen. Now that does not give us a license to sin. Jesus told us our new commandment was to love each other as yourself. What you do for each other you do for Him. So, if you love your neighbor as yourself, you won't steal from him, lie to him, covet or fornicate with his wife, kill him or in any way sin against him. So grace did away with the law. However, for those Jewish people who refuse to believe in the Lord Jesus Christ as the Messiah, they are still living as though they are still under the law. They are still waiting for the messiah to be born, thinking He will come in glory as a king.

This is a beautiful topic & I feel like I could go on forever but I am still a babe in Christ my self & still learning too. So now I'll pass the torch.

 

[jasoncran]

I agree that it was a shadow, but as it did atone as god said it would.

first In order to be atone then one had to repent in one heart and pray. then also offer the right offering to the YHWH via the priest.

I can show you the verses on this.

 

[jasoncran]

Deborah, interesting read but lengthy. I would read this over the coming weekend .it appears from a jewish perspective that is lost. ie Chassidic. not sure as I glanced.

now then, remember ryan atone cant ever be a type of worship

 

[francisdesales]

Mitspa,


I'm not sure what you mean by "throughout the NEW TESTAMENT"; Could you show me some examples from Matthew Mark Luke and John ? or do you just mean statements we hear from Paul himself?

I'm thinking that Paul is a lawyer, and whenever I read a lawyer -- I look for lawyer talk.
Sometimes lawyers say tricky things in order to get people to do the right thing -- even if for an imperfect reason.
I mean; Salvation doesn't depend on erudite knowledge; for even the simple can be saved through Faith.
So Paul was free to use his judgment about what to say -- and what to withhold from us, in order to save as many as possible; which means he likely tried to use the most psychologically powerful of arguments -- even if not those which are the *clearest* possible truth. ( Even Jesus says, I have many things to teach -- but "you" can not bear it now ).

My study of Paul is getting into technicalities that I don't think affect my salvation; but at the same time, I want to make sure I understand his teaching well; for I desire to know Jesus Christ more fully in terms of the Hebrew as well as Gentile perspectives. (The O.P. attracted me, specifically, because of some things Jethro Bodine mentioned.)

Here's a woman's issue from Paul, that is very much a part of the O.P.; but also notice how he ties it to the old testament Law.

1Corinthians 14:34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.

Yet this law is not exactly the same law that Paul speaks of in Romans; and it is very frustrating to try and figure out which applies where and why and how; and I mean this especially after studying the Old Testament women who show that there is indeed a hierarchy, based on the temple platforms, but also that women could be full fledged leaders in public; ( One of the Judges, in Joshua, for example is a woman -- but God doesn't allow her to act the same as men judges, when it comes to killing; his plan for women is clearly different. ). And I could cite other examples as well.
But, I'll leave off writing -- for I myself feel like I'm droning on....

Good point on Paul. Why do so many people waddle around in Paul and ignore what Jesus has to say??? It is as if Paul is a "canon within a canon"...

Paul is arguing against Judaizers in Romans. Those who brag about having the Mosaic Law, as if possession grants salvation. Clearly, Paul destroys that notion in Romans 2 - pagans obey the eternal law in their hearts while in Romans 3, Jews are no better off with the Mosaic Law, since they aren't obeying it. What is the point of becoming circumcised, when Abraham was justified before being circumcised? Only faith in God brings forth justification.

Jesus and Paul state that it is DOERS of the Law (whether written on the heart or not), not the possessors of the Law, who will be justified. The just live by faith.

Regards

 

[childeye]

I believe the law has passed away for those who have believed in the Christ.

 

[jasoncran]

actually we do things in the nature of the law.

the torah does teach one how to love. but that is another topic

 

[childeye]

Love is what does the law. What Love does is seen in the law.

 

[jasoncran]

yes but the torah teaches and always taught what that was.

if I as a gay man think that love is normal for man to man, the torah will correct that when I read the book genesis and also in the law where that is listed as a deadly sin. when asked the Holy Spirit will then show the trinity being reflected in the nature of a man and woman

 

[Jethro Bodine]

When you said the law "could only deal with certain sin", do you have some scriptural examples of sins it could not deal with? or is this an inference of some kind?

The law itself tells us what sins it has no provision to atone for (except for the one noted):

Exodus 21:14
Exodus 21:15
Exodus 21:16
Exodus 21:17
Exodus 21:28-30 (depends)
Exodus 22:18
Exodus 22:19
Exodus 22:20
Leviticus 20:10
Numbers 15:30-31


Which is what the good news, the gospel, is all about:

"38 “Therefore, my friends, I want you to know that through Jesus the forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you. 39 Through him everyone who believes is set free from every sin, a justification you were not able to obtain under the law of Moses. " (Acts 13:38-39 NIV)

Only in the New Covenant of faith in Christ are these sins forgiven when repented of.

edit: don't know why the references aren't linking.

 

[childeye]

We see in scripture being gay is a carnal passion brought forth through not esteeming God as God. Whether that can be or will be reversed by God upon esteeming Him aprpopriately, or whether His grace is sufficient as is, is a question I would be interested in knowing the answer to...

 

[Jethro Bodine]

if I as a gay man think that love is normal for man to man, the torah will correct that when I read the book genesis and also in the law where that is listed as a deadly sin.

Hmmm...I didn't include that in my list.

Leviticus 20:13

 

[jasoncran]

uhm david commited murder and didn't die. and also manneseh repented of his.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The fact that there are sins the law could not deal with tells me it's NOT the eternal blood of Christ giving the sacrificial system of worship it's power to forgive. If that were true, then there would be no list of sins it could not deal with. That's one of two reasons I believe a person was indeed forgiven when they did what the law commanded for the forgiveness of sins. The other reason? God plainly said so:

"...and they will be forgiven" (Leviticus 4:35 NIV)

 

[jasoncran]

there were always means if god wanted to forgive. keep that mind.why didn't he slay david then since there was no provision for him?or all of isreal since they were worse then sodoma and gommorah?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

uhm david commited murder and didn't die. and also manneseh repented of his.

Correct.

They are among those prior to Christ who discovered the grace of God that the condemnation of the law drives all honest and broken people to. Paul uses the example of David to illustrate the "blessedness of the one to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:

7 “Blessed are those
whose transgressions are forgiven,
whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed is the one
whose sin the Lord will never count against them." "
(Romans 4:6-8 NIV)

The only way to be justified is through the forgiveness of sins through faith in God. This grace has always been available. But it's a grace that is not available through the law.

 

[jasoncran]

I agree. but when I mention the torah in the torah, theres grace.

ie
and IN THE torah its said.

and noah found grace in the eyes of God.

that is in genesis. remember don't think nor mistake the law for the entire torah. its not

 

[childeye]

I'm not sure I got my question answered Jasoncran. If you can't answer it that's okay too.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I agree. but when I mention the torah in the torah, theres grace.

Absolutely. (Cities of refuge is a good example.)

But the measure of grace the law does provide is not sufficient to save.

 

[childeye]

I think the law was a trap for Satan and the exposing of vanity in the creation. Therefore the saving Grace of God is seen on the cross.