When did the Law pass or has it passed away?

[JLB]

Sins were forgiven before the cross because God had already promised his son before the cross.

Hebrews 1:10
And, “You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, And the heavens are the works of Your hands;

Hebrews 4:3
For we who have believed enter that rest, just as He has said, “As I swore in My wrath, They shall not enter My rest,†although His works were finished from the foundation of the world.

He operates outside of time. His promises are forever and eternal. That is why he was able to forgive in Exodus because of the blood that was going to be shed by Jesus.

He operates outside of time but human beings are confined to this natural world with the applicable laws that govern it. We have to choose to obey. Only the blood of Jesus can remove sin.

The blood of bulls and goats can never take away sins.

JLB

 

[jasoncran]

jlb. why then doe the psalms speak of this then?
ps 103

12 As far as the east is from the west, so far hath he removed our transgressions from us

 

[reba]

Moses could not inter the promised land some of God's promises have conditions

 

[jasoncran]

Moses could not inter the promised land some of God's promises have conditions

actually he died due to not carry out a command perfectly. he didn't loose his soul.


YUP reba

 

[JLB]

jlb. why then doe the psalms speak of this then?
ps 103

The same reason the Psalms speak of this -

To the Chief Musician. Set to 'The Deer of the Dawn.' A Psalm of David. My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me? Why are You so far from helping Me, And from the words of My groaning.

and again -

7 All those who see Me ridicule Me; They shoot out the lip, they shake the head, saying, 8 "He trusted in the Lord, let Him rescue Him; Let Him deliver Him, since He delights in Him!"

and again -

16 For dogs have surrounded Me; The congregation of the wicked has enclosed Me. They pierced My hands and My feet; 17 I can count all My bones. They look and stare at Me. 18 They divide My garments among them, And for My clothing they cast lots.


Did Davids hands and feet get pierced?


JLB

 

[jasoncran]

so it should read this

And David said unto Nathan, I have sinned against the Lord. And Nathan said unto David, The Lord also will put away thy sin; thou shalt not die.

not

And David said unto Nathan, I have sinned against the Lord. And Nathan said unto David, The Lord also hath put away thy sin; thou shalt not die.

hath as in past tense. sorry. when Jonah went to Nineveh he preached what and they repented and they were forgiven.

otherwise the psalms and the entire tanach or the faithful jews never ever under grace. grace that noah found. how could noah found grace then if god didn't give it or what about Abraham? how about the fact that he was declare right before the law was ever given?

 

[JLB]

The reason the OT saints were preserved in the "heart of the Earth" and not heaven, until Jesus descended down and took "captivity captive", was their sins were "atoned for" not taken away.

As the writer of the book of Hebrews teaches -

4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats could take away sins. Hebrews 10:4

and again -

And every priest stands ministering daily and offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. Hebrews 10:11


Now, on the other hand God can do what ever He wants.

If a man, say like Enoch [or David] , who walk with God, discovered that by faith that God would "take away" his sin if he asked "in faith", because scripture teaches that "all things are possible to him who believes", then so be it.

However that scriptural fact remains - The blood of bull and goats can never take away sins.


JLB

 

[jasoncran]

oh shesh

so god didn't really forgive david. nor moses nor even the righteous able whom offered a lamb.

so then how could these Hebrew speak of mercy when they never really got it?.

For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.
3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.
4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:

in context that is. talking about yom kippur. that the high priest being imperfect could be the perfect offering of sin once and for all. a shadow of what was to come. that doesn't mean that god didn't forgive.uhm

hades=sheol. its still there. if you deny that then go read revalation 20 its there. I have looked into hades. its where the dead souls are stored. only the righteous go to heaven. even now its a mystery of the ot saints in sheol. I looked at sheol earlier and its not much and the souls that went to heaven with the lord were dead recently not the ot saints.

moses if he wasn't right with god or any saint then why would jesus say the saducees err when it says all live to god?

 

[jasoncran]

a shadow of things to come. the law never made perfect. that is what paul meant and that is I mean. but that cant mean that god didn't show mercy then. he did. for why would have the psalmist write of them? surely they the jews had to have to some idea.

moses spoke of his mercy in the torah. otherwise when jesus spoke about mercy they wouldn't have any idea and be clueless. yet they knew what he meant by mercy.

 

[JLB]

oh shesh

so god didn't really forgive david. nor moses nor even the righteous able whom offered a lamb.

so then how could these Hebrew speak of mercy when they never really got it?.




in context that is. talking about yom kippur. that the high priest being imperfect could be the perfect offering of sin once and for all. a shadow of what was to come. that doesn't mean that god didn't forgive.uhm

hades=sheol. its still there. if you deny that then go read revalation 20 its there. I have looked into hades. its where the dead souls are stored. only the righteous go to heaven. even now its a mystery of the ot saints in sheol. I looked at sheol earlier and its not much and the souls that went to heaven with the lord were dead recently not the ot saints.

moses if he wasn't right with god or any saint then why would jesus say the saducees err when it says all live to god?

Jason,

SNARKY

the blood of bulls and goats can never take away sins. Hebrews 10:4

Did Noah sacrifice bulls and goats to take away sins?

Did Abraham sacrifice bulls and goats to take away sins?

The context is the Law of Moses.

Secondly, did you read what I wrote -

Now, on the other hand God can do what ever He wants.

If a man, say like Enoch [or David] , who walk with God, discovered that by faith that God would "take away" his sin if he asked "in faith", because scripture teaches that "all things are possible to him who believes", then so be it.

However that scriptural fact remains - The blood of bull and goats can never take away sins.


JLB

 

[jasoncran]

its a rituall way. god forgave then.you said and imply that he didn't.when in fact he told them do this and I will atone you when you do.

sorry. the law is a shadow. it always pointed to the lord. I never said nor claim that it didn't need god. the idea of animals and blood was to use something around then and use it to point to the Lord.

did God really buy your soul?

if so what did it cost him and whom did he pay it to?satan? or?

 

[Mitspa]

It is written that they will desire to be teachers of the law, not knowing what they are saying or trying to affirm.

Paul warns against those who would attempt to lead believers away from the simplicty of Christ. Faith working by love.

As I look at the doctrines of those who are trying teach the law, I notice a complex and mixed up mess of old testament and new testament doctrine, that has no foundation upon anything. Its parts of the law here and there and this tradition and that feast day etc... No one understands what they are trying to teach or do any of their doctrines relate to Pauls gospel.
If any man or even AN ANGEL FROM HEAVEN, preach any other gospel than Pauls gospel they are curse. All men will be judged by Pauls gospel. Not moses, not the phophets, but Paul alone was shown the mystery of godliness.

 

[JLB]

its a rituall way. god forgave then.you said and imply that he didn't.when in fact he told them do this and I will atone you when you do.

sorry. the law is a shadow. it always pointed to the lord. I never said nor claim that it didn't need god. the idea of animals and blood was to use something around then and use it to point to the Lord.

did God really buy your soul?

if so what did it cost him and whom did he pay it to?satan? or?

Atonement is not taken away.

Atonement is to cover, not take away.

15 But the Holy Spirit also witnesses to us; for after He had said before, 16 "This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws into their hearts, and in their minds I will write them," 17 then He adds, "Their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more." Hebrews 10:15-17

By saying,"Their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more", the Holy Spirit is indicating that the old covenant didn't provide for this,

as it is written -


31 "Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah-- 32 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the Lord.

The reason the Lord said "My Covenant which they broke" is that He remembers their Their sins and their lawless deeds.

Why" Because their sins were "atoned for" not "taken way".


JLB

 

[Deborah13]

Surely going under the knife is and was a big deal. Stephen did though. Like I said, all these commandments are given by God. It's up to us whether we keep them or not and where our heart draws us to. I don't have a mezuzah up yet. But I'm gong to study it and make sure I am doing it for the right reasons and for the right purposes. Some things we have to understand why we're doing them, before we do them. Others, not so much.

ok, ryan. you realize that you wont be differentiated tween jews if you do that.

I found this paper written on Ezekiel and found it interesting, especially around pg 200 where there is a section title of " Unique Motifs in the Descriptions of Israel’s Restoration". http://www.academia.edu/937517/The_Descriptions_of_the_Restoration_of_Israel_in_Ezekiel

 

[About the Son of God]

It is written that they will desire to be teachers of the law, not knowing what they are saying or trying to affirm.

Paul warns against those who would attempt to lead believers away from the simplicty of Christ. Faith working by love.

As I look at the doctrines of those who are trying teach the law, I notice a complex and mixed up mess of old testament and new testament doctrine, that has no foundation upon anything.

Within the thread, that may be true. But in a debate, it's difficult with continual heckling to even present a consistent view. Paul's writings themselves are very confusing, as scripture says "Paul says things hard to understand, and the unstable and UNLEARNED twist them to their own destruction." Almost all the divisions I have seen, from one Christian denomination to the next are based on Paul's writings.

If any man or even AN ANGEL FROM HEAVEN, preach any other gospel than Pauls gospel they are curse. All men will be judged by Pauls gospel. Not moses, not the phophets, but Paul alone was shown the mystery of godliness.

Paul, alone? How do you come to that conclusion?

In Galatians 1:13 - 18 I could make the inference that Paul's vision revealed everything about Jesus to him; but he doesn't actually say that. Rather he says:

Galat 1:13 For ye have heard of my conversation in time past in the Jews' religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and wasted it:
Galat 1:14 And profited in the Jews' religion above many my equals in mine own nation, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers.
Galat 1:15 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace,
Galat 1:16 To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:

Paul was not separated from his mothers womb on the road to Damascus, nor called (vocation/ klesis / "Saul Saul why do you persecute me" ) as an infant. Yet he uses an obscure figure of speech which sound like he got it all at once: "reveal his son in me, that I might preach him"

Yet we know that Paul had scales left on his eyes, had to be healed by Christians, and conferred with them immediately after his encounter with Christ.

Acts 9:4 - 18

And it ends with:
Acts 9:19 And when he had received meat, he was strengthened. Then was Saul certain days with the disciples which were at Damascus.
And again:
Acts 9:22 But Saul increased the more in strength, and confounded the Jews which dwelt at Damascus, proving that this is very Christ.

So that's it's clear Paul spent his early days with Christians who knew the Gospel -- and it's clear that Paul's doctrine and teaching GREW while he stayed with them; and we also know these other Christians received messages "FROM GOD" as well.
I don't see how Paul could deny speaking with these people, when God sent them to care for Paul. It's not like God couldn't have removed the scales from Paul's eyes himself....!

Here's a full discussion of my reasoning on how Paul was *exposed* to Christian teaching.

Begin with Acts 6:8-8:3 ; The first thing found there is that Stephen the deacon taught in the synagog, discussing Christianity over a period of days with people who took that teaching to Saul at Stephen's trial; We only have a fraction of Stephen's speeches recorded... but it is very similar to what Paul would later preach. And We KNOW that Paul used the evidence that Stephen the Martyr TAUGHT in order to detect and kill Christians;

In my mind, the words of Stephen were the words of God, spoken to Paul.
Note: Jesus says, "He who hears you, hears me"
When Paul says Galatians 1:11 "the gospel which was preached of me is not after man." He assuredly can not mean that Stephen was a liar; or that Stephen's words, and his dialog in the faith were "received of Man."

It's bound to be true that SOME of what Paul taught was not given to him by other Christians; but I don't see any reason to believe that *all* of it was direct revelation to him alone. He would have to be terribly arrogant for that to be the case, refusing to accept the aid of other Christians.

I'm sure that Paul's a lawyer, who thought it important to impress the Galatians by boasting -- and he does not lie; but he can hedge his sayings without sinning!
Jesus hid things from Cleopas: Luke 24:18-19

So, I think Paul is hiding something, innocently, when he makes the statement about "did no receive it of man, neither was I taught it", because it is followed by a "FOR" subtly phrased; and For explains *why* ( compare "I cried" vs. "I cried for joy" )

Galat 1:13 For ye have heard of my conversation in time past in the Jews' religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and wasted it:

So, he didn't receive it from man -- BECAUE -- when he heard it -- he refused the Teaching. But, Paul didn't say whether or not he accepted the PREVIOUS teaching once he heard the voice. Don't forget, Stephen is the one Saul had killed -- and Jesus said "persecuting me"

I'm wondering -- perhaps I've overlooked something...

Do you know of any major discourse in Paul's "Gospel" that speaks in detail of anything Jesus did, that definitely not have been gleaned in a 6 hour speech from Stephen the Martyr about the messiah? or which *several days* with the men Paul met in Damascus?

Paul's writings seem to me to be almost entirely reflections on the TORAH/OLD testament -- and how Jesus fulfilled them.

It would not have been easy, but I know that from the moment Paul was told "Saul Saul why do you persecute me." -- Paul, who is a *brilliant* lawyer -- had enough information to look at the TORAH, and prophets in a totally new way, and reason forward to the truths of the Gospel; I can demonstrate the chain of logic for many of his arguments, which is one of the reasons I am always stunned when I study Paul; He's very learned in the Old Testament.

But I really don't see how it could be that Paul had no idea of the teachings of Christ *before* the revelation of Jesus to him personally.
The saying in Galatians "from man" or "from angels" in my opinion, means that he checked what they said -- and believed what God said; so that it doesn't REST on the WORD of men.

But: If Paul had a large amount revelation and in detail, could you explain why Paul never tells us these revelations at *length*? (or show me some if there are any).
My impression is that direct words from God are only a tiny fraction of what he wrote. (They are there, but they just aren't the majority of his Gospel.)

 

[JLB]

a shadow of things to come. the law never made perfect. that is what paul meant and that is I mean. but that cant mean that god didn't show mercy then. he did. for why would have the psalmist write of them? surely they the jews had to have to some idea.

moses spoke of his mercy in the torah. otherwise when jesus spoke about mercy they wouldn't have any idea and be clueless. yet they knew what he meant by mercy.

Who said anything about God's mercy. His mercy was shown from the beginning when the Lord covered Adam and Eve in the skins of animals. Showing that by the shedding of blood there would be a way to maintain relationship.

Also showing that the innocent would have to pay the price for the guilty.

We are discussing the removal of sin in the New Testament vs the Atonment for sin in the Law.

The vein of our discussion is in the thread "When did the Law pass or has it passed away"?

Under the Law of Moses, only the High Priest could have access to the Holiest of all.

Now under the New Covenant, we as gentiles have access directly to Him -

Therefore, brethren, having boldness to enter the Holiest by the blood of Jesus, 20 by a new and living way which He consecrated for us, through the veil, that is, His flesh, 21 and having a High Priest over the house of God, 22 let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water. Hebrews 10:19-22


The Law of Moses was "added" to the Abrahamic Covenant.

The Laws of God "contained" in the Abrahamic Covenant are Eternal and have always included Gentiles..

The Law of Moses was "added" until the Seed should come...

The Laws of Gods kingdom are "imbedded" in the New Nature we have received through Christ.

as it is written -

12 For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law 13 (for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified; 14 for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, 15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them) 16 in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel. Romans 2:12-16

Gods Laws are Eternal.

Moses Law was temporary.

God's Laws were "seen" in Moses Law and remain today.

as it is written -

Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 1 John 3:7

Righteousness apart from the Law of Moses.


JLB

 

[eddif]

Originally Posted by reba
Moses could not inter the promised land some of God's promises have conditions

In an unofficial way I experienced the same thing years ago without death. I repented, contacted involved persons and prefer not to discuss details. I was kept from promises in this life (till I repented). This former experience lets me know an aspect of the Law does exist today. Conditions can be activated under Church Discipline. When a gentile looks at the OT Law he can understand how Jesus has broken down the wall between all of us. The lawful use of the Law can be used today (I am still working on a full understanding).

We are under grace to post. If we choose to violate all love we can go under the rules and suffer separation from this promised land of christianforums.net. Thanks for permission to post. Thanks for warning us all in a NT way.

eddif

 

[Mitspa]

Well the Holy Spirit in several places makes the very bold statement that "all men will be judged by Pauls gospel"
This is said throughout the NEW TESTAMENT, in many ways.
So ALL DOCTRINE must yield to Pauls epistles.

 

[Mitspa]

a shadow of things to come. the law never made perfect. that is what paul meant and that is I mean. but that cant mean that god didn't show mercy then. he did. for why would have the psalmist write of them? surely they the jews had to have to some idea.

moses spoke of his mercy in the torah. otherwise when jesus spoke about mercy they wouldn't have any idea and be clueless. yet they knew what he meant by mercy.

Who said anything about God's mercy. His mercy was shown from the beginning when the Lord covered Adam and Eve in the skins of animals. Showing that by the shedding of blood there would be a way to maintain relationship.

Also showing that the innocent would have to pay the price for the guilty.

We are discussing the removal of sin in the New Testament vs the Atonment for sin in the Law.

The vein of our discussion is in the thread "When did the Law pass or has it passed away"?

Under the Law of Moses, only the High Priest could have access to the Holiest of all.

Now under the New Covenant, we as gentiles have access directly to Him -

Therefore, brethren, having boldness to enter the Holiest by the blood of Jesus, 20 by a new and living way which He consecrated for us, through the veil, that is, His flesh, 21 and having a High Priest over the house of God, 22 let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water. Hebrews 10:19-22


The Law of Moses was "added" to the Abrahamic Covenant.

The Laws of God "contained" in the Abrahamic Covenant are Eternal and have always included Gentiles..

The Law of Moses was "added" until the Seed should come...

The Laws of Gods kingdom are "imbedded" in the New Nature we have received through Christ.

as it is written -

12 For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law 13 (for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified; 14 for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, 15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them) 16 in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel. Romans 2:12-16

Gods Laws are Eternal.

Moses Law was temporary.

God's Laws were "seen" in Moses Law and remain today.

as it is written -

Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 1 John 3:7

Righteousness apart from the Law of Moses.


JLB

Good post!
Paul tells us in clear terms when the law ended for those who are "IN CHRIST"
"I am determined to know nothing among you but Christ Crucified"
When the Living Word of God, was nailed to the Cross. The law was nailed and "it is finished"
For Christ is the end of the law, for righteousness.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The blood of bulls and goats can never take away sins.

They can never take away sin guilt. Bulls and goats can't make a person a new creation.

The problem was the repeated sacrifices of that system reminded a person of theirs bondage to their repeated sin and offered them no hope of being set free from that bondage. They were unable to cleanse the conscience of the guilty person. There was no newness of life, no born again, or born anew experience connected with the forgiveness granted under the old covenant of temple, priest, and sacrifice. But a person was indeed forgiven until the next time they sinned, and another sacrifice was required to deal with the sin. But the sin nature that produced it remained. Thus the continuing guilty conscience of a guilty sin nature.

It says in Leviticus that the person was indeed forgiven when the prescribed sacrifice was offered. The law also is specific about what would NOT be forgiven. This to me is clear evidence that the person was indeed forgiven whatever wrong they committed...until they did it again and needed to offer another sacrifice...and be reminded of how utterly sinful they are. Not so in this New Covenant where the person is made perfect (legally speaking) before God, changed into a new creation, and who no longer feels the guilt of the power of the sin nature.