When did the Law pass or has it passed away?

[Ryan]

A general question to those who might believe the Law of Moses remains in force (either for Jews or for all of us): Do you believe that adulterers should be stoned to death, as the Law of Moses demands?

If you say no, please explain how you Biblically justify making such an exception.

God's wisdom is God's wisdom. How are you to make light of a commandment such as this? Every law and commandment served a purpose, and just because it doesn't fit into our 21st century thought doesn't mean we can't discount the lesson it is teaching us.

So no, stoning cannot be done today. But do you know why?

So the answer is no! They "break" the law into pieces and keep what they like.
The law is EVERY JOT AND TITTLE, ALL THAT IS WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF THE LAW!

this is why Paul said that many false teachers would come as teachers of the law, not knowing what they are saying or trying to affirm.
This part of the law and that part of the law etc... Its all false doctrine.

Rom 10:3-4

Why can't you answer why there is no stoning adulterers today? Not what Mitspa thinks, but what the bible says.

 

[Elijah674]

Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

As already implicitly argued, this text does not require us to read it as an endorsement of the eternality of the Law of Moses.

I believe that Paul is making an historical argument, asserting that, in the past, the Jew (like Paul) would not know about sin if it were not for the Law. But that does not force us to conclude that we still need the Law.

As Paul says at many places - the Spirit replaces the Law of Moses as the informing source for how we are to behave.

Elijah here:
When all is said and done, how is it that we see Abe with gentile converts way, way back with Gentile converts? In fact before he died even, God appeared to Isaac
& told him this truth....

Gen. 26:5
[5] Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, [my commandments,] my statutes, and my laws.

And by the way surely there were health laws as well. And it was interesting that God talked directly with Abe by a voice. And note what it was that was commanded!

And back in Gen. 12 you have this message given. Gen. 12:1 - 5 we read...
[5] And Abram took Sarai his wife, and Lot his brother's son, and all their substance that they had gathered, and the souls that they had gotten in Haran; and they went forth to go into the land of Canaan; and into the land of Canaan they came.

It was the day of Israel that God heard them telling him to stop talking to him. That He heard them. Yet, up to this time God talked directly to his own. Even to Cain in Gen. 4:7

 

[JLB]

Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

As already implicitly argued, this text does not require us to read it as an endorsement of the eternality of the Law of Moses.

I believe that Paul is making an historical argument, asserting that, in the past, the Jew (like Paul) would not know about sin if it were not for the Law. But that does not force us to conclude that we still need the Law.

As Paul says at many places - the Spirit replaces the Law of Moses as the informing source for how we are to behave.

Elijah here:
When all is said and done, how is it that we see Abe with gentile converts way, way back with Gentile converts? In fact before he died even, God appeared to Isaac
& told him this truth....

Gen. 26:5
[5] Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, [my commandments,] my statutes, and my laws.

And by the way surely there were health laws as well. And it was interesting that God talked directly with Abe by a voice. And note what it was that was commanded!

And back in Gen. 12 you have this message given. Gen. 12:1 - 5 we read...
[5] And Abram took Sarai his wife, and Lot his brother's son, and all their substance that they had gathered, and the souls that they had gotten in Haran; and they went forth to go into the land of Canaan; and into the land of Canaan they came.

It was the day of Israel that God heard them telling him to stop talking to him. That He heard them. Yet, up to this time God talked directly to his own. Even to Cain in Gen. 4:7

Great point brother. However I have told him over and over the same thing and he just ignores what I say and talks in circles.

It's almost as if he did not have ears to hear. Or in this case "eyes to see".

God's Law was in place and set up from the beginning. UNLIKE the Law of Moses it was to be communicated through relationship by God speaking to the person, NOT for the person to "learn" His Law by partaking of the "source" of knowledge [tree] APART FROM HIM.

Not as it were to "search the scriptures" to find out good from evil.

You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me. 40 But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life. John 5:39-40

This was spoken by the same Lord who said - of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not partake...


JLB

 

[Ryan]

To prove that Paul was not teaching or telling other people to forsake Torah, they devised a plan to show that he would participate and complete a Nazarite vow. Thus proving he was not walking contrary to Torah, and telling people otherwise.

I can appreciate that you can see this particular text the way that you see it, but the bigger picture shows that Paul believes the Law of Moses has been set aside.

Before I offer an explanation of how this account from Acts can be coherently explained in terms of a view where Paul believes the Law is coming to an end, let me remind all of the formidable Biblical evidence that the Law of Moses is retired:

1. Ephesians 2:15 - a direct declaration of the abolition of the Law of Moses;".

Again the context is important. Is it really saying that before Christ, no Gentile had access to receive salvation? Does that seem absurd? How did Christ bring Jew and Gentile together?

Ephesians 2:18 for through Him we both have our access in one Spirit to the Father
Remember the outpouring of the Holy Spirit on Shavuot? Previous thought, and Peter held onto this as well until the "vision" that Gentiles could not be rendered clean. They were seen as unclean incapable of being clean. Again, this was man made ordinances he was speaking about in verse 15.

2. That text in Galations where Paul likens the Law to a tutor whose job comes to an end when the child being tutored grows up;".

[FONT=TimesNewRoman,Bold][FONT=TimesNewRoman,Bold][FONT=TimesNewRoman,Bold]Ga 3:24 [/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

We need the "curse of the law" or "law of sin and death" to teach us that we are in bondage (under sin-3:22) in order to "escort" us to our Messiah. It is to teach us to have faith and trust in His perfect grace as the perfect practicing of the Word made flesh who became the curse for us on the tree. (salvation 101)​

[FONT=TimesNewRoman,Bold][FONT=TimesNewRoman,Bold][FONT=TimesNewRoman,Bold]

Ga 3:25 ​

[/FONT]​

[/FONT]​

[/FONT]But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.​

After that faith has come, we are no longer under the curse (law of sin and death). Before faith we are under the law of sin and death (curse) and after faith we are no longer under the law of sin and death (curse). Let's even pretend for a moment that the "schoolmaster" is the "law of God" instead of the "law of sin and death." Here is what the verse would be saying:

Before faith = we are under the "law of God."
After faith = we are not under the "law of God."

Does that even make any sense? Of course not! When we apply the context here is what happens:

Before faith = we are under the "law of sin and death(curse)"
After faith = we are not under the "law of sin and death(curse)"
Paul is saying the same thing as in Romans 8:2.​

[FONT=TimesNewRoman,Bold][FONT=TimesNewRoman,Bold][FONT=TimesNewRoman,Bold]

Ro 8:2 ​

[/FONT]​

[/FONT]​

[/FONT]For the [FONT=TimesNewRoman,Bold][FONT=TimesNewRoman,Bold][FONT=TimesNewRoman,Bold]law of the Spirit [/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]of life in Christ Jesus hath [FONT=TimesNewRoman,Bold][FONT=TimesNewRoman,Bold][FONT=TimesNewRoman,Bold]made me free [/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]from the [FONT=TimesNewRoman,Bold][FONT=TimesNewRoman,Bold][FONT=TimesNewRoman,Bold]law of sin and death[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT].​

It was the "law of sin and death" that places us in bondage, not the "law of God." Why would we need to be freed from the "law of God" when Scripture calls the "law of God" freedom? Do we need to be freed from freedom? Again, does that make any sense? In fact, God’s law is called freedom in scripture ( Psalm 119:45). Why would Paul be teaching us we need to be freed from freedom itself? What a twisted mess men’s doctrines have created for us to untangle! (Courtesy of 119 Ministries)​

3. A statement in Romans 10 about Christ being the end of the Law;".

Romans 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

Again, I brought this up earlier. The Greek "telos" can be rendered as end or can be rendered as goal. What does Jesus say about the Law and himself?
Luke 24:46-47, John 5:46, Hebrews 10:7
Romans 3:31 Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law.
So which contradiction do you want to take? How could one establish, then end it at the same time? End of the law should clearly be rendered as the goal of the law for righteousness for everyone who believes.

4. A statement in Colossions about how "the Law" is nailed to the cross;".

Colossians 2:14 having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.

If you believe that then God is a liar. Is God's laws hostile to man? What is hostile is the sinful flesh of man's disobedience that is contrary to God's laws. How could the commandment of not robbing your neighbour Leviticus 19:13 be a decree against us? The certificate of debt was always about our sin that Jesus paid for on the cross for us violating Torah. Not keeping it.

5. Peter's vision of the animals in Acts - God tells Peter that all foods are now clean (in contradiction to the Law of Moses);".

Not if you don't understand the differences between being ritually impure and unclean. Short and sweet version is Peter was looking at Gentiles as being unclean. That is incapable of becoming clean. God was showing they were not to be seen as being unclean, but as being ritually impure capable of becoming clean.

Acts 10:14 But Peter said, “By no means, Lord, for I have never eaten anything unholy and unclean.” Notice Peter using the term unholy (ritually impure) and unclean? They are two separate issues.
Peter later speaks to this verifying it had nothing to do with food. Acts 10:28 And he said to them, “You yourselves know how unlawful it is for a man who is a Jew to associate with a foreigner or to visit him; and yet God has shown me that I should not call any man unholy or unclean.

6. Jesus' declaration that all foods are clean (e.g. Mark 7);".

No he didn't. Plain and simple. The context is completely about the pharisaical laws of handwashing. I can provide a link to where this was discussed before on here, or an outside link. To long to discuss here.

7. Jesus acting as though as though He, and not the temple as the Law requires, is the place to go for forgiveness,".

Really? One could only receive forgiveness at the temple? So all the Jews in the Diaspora could never be forgiven except when they went to the temple? When Nineveh repented, did they have to make a mass exodus to the temple to have their sins forgiven?

8. Jesus boldly declaring that He is the new Temple ("Destroy this Temple and it will be rebuilt in 3 days"). Let's not forget, the Law of Moses requires the Jew to go the Temple for purification;".

One could walk around in a perpetual state of being ritually impurity, but to draw closer to God, there were certain steps to follow to draw near to him. And what was rebuilt in 3 days? This has nothing to do with the obolishment of Jesus's/God's laws as they are one in the same.

9. The tearing in two of the curtain in the Temple - how can one say the Law of Moses lives on when a central element needed for carrying it out - the temple veil, has been torn in half;".

If that was the case, why wasn't just the entire temple demolished then? What does the temple veil being torn in two have to do with Yom Kippur?

10. Jesus intentionally becomes unclean, according to the Law, by touching a woman with a menstrual bleed.".

Being ritually impure was not a sin. They walked around in impurity all the time. Jesus did not become unclean, or that would say he was likened to being a pig. That's impossible. He was the Lamb of God, a clean animal.

If you believe the temple will be rebuilt, and sacrifices will resume in the millenium, and this is only a big if. But if pigs have now been declared clean, would you be brave enough to try and offer a pig as a sacrifice?

Now the Acts 21 passage: Yes, Paul follows the law in this instance, as does Jesus in some cases. But, I suggest that both men are doing this even though they believe the time of the Law of Moses is coming to an end:

Jesus obeys the Law to delay His arrest till the appropriate time.

Paul obeys the Law here in the interest of appeasing his fellow Jews - he is no dummy; he knows that he needs to "pick his battles".

Nowhere in scripture does it even assert or support what this is saying.

 

[Mitspa]

A general question to those who might believe the Law of Moses remains in force (either for Jews or for all of us): Do you believe that adulterers should be stoned to death, as the Law of Moses demands?

If you say no, please explain how you Biblically justify making such an exception.

God's wisdom is God's wisdom. How are you to make light of a commandment such as this? Every law and commandment served a purpose, and just because it doesn't fit into our 21st century thought doesn't mean we can't discount the lesson it is teaching us.

So no, stoning cannot be done today. But do you know why?

So the answer is no! They "break" the law into pieces and keep what they like.
The law is EVERY JOT AND TITTLE, ALL THAT IS WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF THE LAW!

this is why Paul said that many false teachers would come as teachers of the law, not knowing what they are saying or trying to affirm.
This part of the law and that part of the law etc... Its all false doctrine.

Rom 10:3-4

Why can't you answer why there is no stoning adulterers today? Not what Mitspa thinks, but what the bible says.

i will tell you why? Because Christ is the end of the law, for righeousness.
Because Gods righteousness has been revealed from Heaven.
And any man who attempts to establish his own righteousness by law, is an enemy of Christ and His Cross.
Rom 10:3-4
Php 3:9
Php 3:18-20

 

[JLB]

. Let's even pretend for a moment that the "schoolmaster" is the "law of God" instead of the "law of sin and death."

The Law here is the Law of Moses, not the Law of God.

Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.


For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Where in the Law of Moses does it called for a Gentile to be baptized into Christ?

Where in the Law of Moses does it call Jew and Gentile the same/

For the priesthood being changed, of necessity there is also a change of the law. Hebrews 7:12

Who decided the law of Moses was to be changed?

Yet the law is not of faith, but "the man who does them shall live by them."

For without faith it is impossible to please God.

For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.


JLB

 

[Ryan]

So the answer is no! They "break" the law into pieces and keep what they like.
The law is EVERY JOT AND TITTLE, ALL THAT IS WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF THE LAW!

this is why Paul said that many false teachers would come as teachers of the law, not knowing what they are saying or trying to affirm.
This part of the law and that part of the law etc... Its all false doctrine.

Rom 10:3-4

Why can't you answer why there is no stoning adulterers today? Not what Mitspa thinks, but what the bible says.

i will tell you why? Because Christ is the end of the law, for righeousness.
Because Gods righteousness has been revealed from Heaven.
And any man who attempts to establish his own righteousness by law, is an enemy of Christ and His Cross.
Rom 10:3-4
Php 3:9
Php 3:18-20

You really have no biblical idea why?
Deuteronomy 16:18 “You shall appoint for yourself judges and officers in all your towns which the Lord your God is giving you, according to your tribes, and they shall judge the people with righteous judgment.

The basic gist is there no judges, or Sanhedrin operating with the Torah as its constitution in Israel.

But what multiple lessons does this serve? What does this say about God's character? Here's one. A little leaven does what?

Galatians 5:9 A little leaven leavens the whole lump of dough.

Sin has to be purged, or it starts to fester and spread like a virus. That's one. Can you name other valuable lessons?

An enemy of Christ for a saved person following the Torah. :toofunny

 

[Ryan]

. Let's even pretend for a moment that the "schoolmaster" is the "law of God" instead of the "law of sin and death."

The Law here is the Law of Moses, not the Law of God.

Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.


For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Where in the Law of Moses does it called for a Gentile to be baptized into Christ?

Where in the Law of Moses does it call Jew and Gentile the same/

For the priesthood being changed, of necessity there is also a change of the law. Hebrews 7:12

Who decided the law of Moses was to be changed?

Yet the law is not of faith, but "the man who does them shall live by them."

For without faith it is impossible to please God.

For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.


JLB

This has all been addressed in previous posts and don't wanna sound redundant again. but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. Go look at a literal bible. The word "but" was an addition thus subtly changing the meaning of that verse. It makes it sound as if God is in opposition to his own laws.

 

[eddif]

A general question to those who might believe the Law of Moses remains in force (either for Jews or for all of us): Do you believe that adulterers should be stoned to death, as the Law of Moses demands?

If you say no, please explain how you Biblically justify making such an exception.

Let's turn it around, do you believe that adultery is against the law? Is it a sin?

(To answer your question, the New Testament application to this law is that now, Christ is the judge and He will take care of the problem. What happens to someone who is an unrepentant adulterer today?

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

The penalty is still death and it is inflicted by the Government, just as it was in Moses time.)

Interesting questions and counter comments.

In the OT Gods people threw the rocks. The curse of the Law demanded that the person be punished. There may have been exceptions or just failure to carry out the given instructions. The curse of the law was in full swing. It was nothing for 70,000 (?) to die in one day for national sin.

Those who accept Jesus are relieved from the curse of the Law.
Galatians 3:13
13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

So what do you do with a person who is a brother when he does not listen to the Holy Spirit and repent (after one person visits, then several go to talk with him, and finally he is brought before the church?
I Corinthians 5:5
5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

It might be good to read Job to set limits, or read Job to learn what might happen. Today, IMHO, the curse of instant death of the law must be removed, because salvation in the day of the Lord Jesus is mentioned.

Using the law lawfully is still the issue to me. I have no problem with seeing physical adultery (OTt or adultery through looking lustfully (NT). Under grace it should be confessed and repented of. If a person will not repent then the Church does not just pray, but sets in motion Church Discipline. Church Discipline is similar to the curse of the law, but with better promises attached to the outcome (I do believe Jesus went into death and gave those of the Law a chance to accept him as Lord).

The law can still define physical sin. Jesus even extended physical sins to the heart (or either revealed the heart sins that had been there waiting for His revelation).

Jesus has broken down the middle wall seperating us. I do not care how real the whitewashed wall looks, it is not solid and does not seperate Jew from Gentile.

Do I have it alltogether? No. Do I see part of it through a glass darkly ? (others will have to judge).

eddif

 

[John 8:32]

A general question to those who might believe the Law of Moses remains in force (either for Jews or for all of us): Do you believe that adulterers should be stoned to death, as the Law of Moses demands?

If you say no, please explain how you Biblically justify making such an exception.

Let's turn it around, do you believe that adultery is against the law? Is it a sin?

(To answer your question, the New Testament application to this law is that now, Christ is the judge and He will take care of the problem. What happens to someone who is an unrepentant adulterer today?

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

The penalty is still death and it is inflicted by the Government, just as it was in Moses time.)

Interesting questions and counter comments.

In the OT Gods people threw the rocks. The curse of the Law demanded that the person be punished. There may have been exceptions or just failure to carry out the given instructions. The curse of the law was in full swing. It was nothing for 70,000 (?) to die in one day for national sin.

Those who accept Jesus are relieved from the curse of the Law.
Galatians 3:13
13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

So what do you do with a person who is a brother when he does not listen to the Holy Spirit and repent (after one person visits, then several go to talk with him, and finally he is brought before the church?
I Corinthians 5:5
5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

It might be good to read Job to set limits, or read Job to learn what might happen. Today, IMHO, the curse of instant death of the law must be removed, because salvation in the day of the Lord Jesus is mentioned.

Using the law lawfully is still the issue to me. I have no problem with seeing physical adultery (OTt or adultery through looking lustfully (NT). Under grace it should be confessed and repented of. If a person will not repent then the Church does not just pray, but sets in motion Church Discipline. Church Discipline is similar to the curse of the law, but with better promises attached to the outcome (I do believe Jesus went into death and gave those of the Law a chance to accept him as Lord).

The law can still define physical sin. Jesus even extended physical sins to the heart (or either revealed the heart sins that had been there waiting for His revelation).

Jesus has broken down the middle wall seperating us. I do not care how real the whitewashed wall looks, it is not solid and does not seperate Jew from Gentile.

Do I have it alltogether? No. Do I see part of it through a glass darkly ? (others will have to judge).

eddif

That is a pretty good handle on it. Just to clarify something, every time someone broke the law, the neighborhood did not pick up rocks in vigilante style. The offender was brought before the Priest (remember, the Priesthood was not only the religous leadership, they were teh civil government at the time.), the offender was judged (the facts were weighed, the testimonies were heard) and the offender if found guilty, was punished (not all infractions resulted in death, in fact most had a penalty associated with them less than death) by the organized government. There seems to be this notion that mobs grabbed up rocks and killed people in a 'street justice' manner, nothing could be further from the truth. The system was much better than the USA has today. A little research on the statistics of our penal system reveals what a disaster it is.

 

[John 8:32]

Interesting questions and counter comments.

In the OT Gods people threw the rocks. The curse of the Law demanded that the person be punished. There may have been exceptions or just failure to carry out the given instructions. The curse of the law was in full swing. It was nothing for 70,000 (?) to die in one day for national sin.

Those who accept Jesus are relieved from the curse of the Law.
Galatians 3:13
13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

eddif

This brings an interesting point to the discussion. Several times the Law itself has been referred to as a curse. This verse plainly reveals the curse is the penalty of the Law. What is cursed? Everyone that hangs on a tree. The Law itself, simply reveals what sin is. Our choice is whether we sin or not. If we sin, we come under a curse.

 

[Drew]

Let's turn it around, do you believe that adultery is against the law? Is it a sin?

Is this is a "trick" question. Surely you know that I will answer that (in North American countries anyway), adultery is not against the law of the land. And surely you should expect that I will assert that it is a sin.

To answer your question, the New Testament application to this law is that now, Christ is the judge and He will take care of the problem.

How is that an answer to my question? You seem to be saying that the Law of Moses applies to day in a sense that has no practical implications for how we act in the real world? How is that sensible? I could equally well say that the law of Mali apply here in Canada, but in a sense that is in no way prescriptive for us. I do not see how that makes any sense.

What happens to someone who is an unrepentant adulterer today?

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

The penalty is still death and it is inflicted by the Government, just as it was in Moses time.)

I don't understand. The government (in Canada and the USA) certainly does not punish people for adultery.

Bottom line: You appear to want it both ways. You appear to say that the Law of Moses is still in force, but in a way that is of no consequence whatsoever as to how we live. Remember: The law of Moses requires, for example, that we not eat pork. How has Jesus "taken care of that"? If the Law says no pork, how can you, someone who apparently believe the Law still applies, say that its acceptable to eat pork, assuming that this is indeed what you believe?

If you are saying that Jesus effectively brought the prescriptive force of the Law of Moses to an end, then you and I are in violent agreement.

 

[Sparkey]

Drew? Ryan? just curious, how are you two doing? I was happy to be able to introduce you two because I thought of the respect that has grown in me for both you guys as well as your positions regarding the law. I've watched the conversation here & wanted to thank you two (and others!) because so often, as a Moderator, my duty involves a rather negative edge. This isn't the case at all here and I'm just stopping in with compliments and praise.

Am "stopping in" also with interest and regard to the discussion that continues here. Glad to see this. Will remain mostly silent as I listen...

Sparrow

 

[Sparkey]

Remember: The law of Moses requires, for example, that we not eat pork. How has Jesus "taken care of that"? If the Law says no pork, how can you, someone who apparently believe the Law still applies, say that its acceptable to eat pork, assuming that this is indeed what you believe?

I like this one! So, if the Law of Moses was given to the Children of Israel, and if the law was also discussed by the Apostle of the Gentiles, can we rightly say that it must be extended? Is it possible that the portions of the law that were given to a very stubborn people who were first learning about God are ratified now and were never intended to be passed on in a literal sense, so that Gentile believers may eat pork but may not drink blood? Is it possible that this very "stubbornness" is something that the Lord has worked with and has transformed into a strength, for Behold!: "Where you are weak, there I am strong!" And would we consider it wrong if some guy thought, "Hey! Maybe God was saying something that I don't hear all that well, maybe I could stop eating pork and maybe I could learn something?" The law does not say that if a Gentile were to stop eating lobster they should be stoned. It was given to one people and Jesus said he had another flock. They were given the same instruction if that instruction is heard as, "Deny yourself" and "Follow after me."

Drew? I don't eat pork. Sorry if this upsets you, but I don't. I don't follow the law with any kind of strict adherence either because Doctors give me medicine for high blood pressure and that stuff that I do eat is actually a derivative of pit viper venom. Yep, there is some guy down in Brazil who milks pit vipers for me and others and I eat it. No, I'm not convicted for breaking the Law of Moses. I'm not even really convicted for not trusting God in all things and lifting my "high blood pressure" concerns to him. I am thankful for modern medicine and that my life may be extended because of it, but really? I do trust God to extend or shorten my life-span as He sees fit.

Cordially,
The bird who swallows venom.

 

[JLB]

Let's turn it around, do you believe that adultery is against the law? Is it a sin?

Is this is a "trick" question. Surely you know that I will answer that (in North American countries anyway), adultery is not against the law of the land. And surely you should expect that I will assert that it is a sin.

To answer your question, the New Testament application to this law is that now, Christ is the judge and He will take care of the problem.

How is that an answer to my question? You seem to be saying that the Law of Moses applies to day in a sense that has no practical implications for how we act in the real world? How is that sensible? I could equally well say that the law of Mali apply here in Canada, but in a sense that is in no way prescriptive for us. I do not see how that makes any sense.

What happens to someone who is an unrepentant adulterer today?

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

The penalty is still death and it is inflicted by the Government, just as it was in Moses time.)

I don't understand. The government (in Canada and the USA) certainly does not punish people for adultery.

Bottom line: You appear to want it both ways. You appear to say that the Law of Moses is still in force, but in a way that is of no consequence whatsoever as to how we live. Remember: The law of Moses requires, for example, that we not eat pork. How has Jesus "taken care of that"? If the Law says no pork, how can you, someone who apparently believe the Law still applies, say that its acceptable to eat pork, assuming that this is indeed what you believe?

If you are saying that Jesus effectively brought the prescriptive force of the Law of Moses to an end, then you and I are in violent agreement.

The Law of God which was revealed in the Garden and before in the issue of Lucifer being cast out of heaven, and was in effect LONG before the Law of Moses.

The Law of Moses exposed Some of Gods permanent Laws of His Kingdom which are eternal as well as some temporary laws on how to deal with a person "when" the broke the Law of Moses.

The whole Law of Moses was added to the Abrahamic Covenant until the Seed should come...

The Laws of Gods Kingdom never ceased, never vanished away, we're never taken out of the way.

What is new (fresh) about the Covenant is the new nature of Christ a person has when they join the Covenant. A nature that has the Law of God, not the Law of Moses, embedded in it. Written as it were on the heart. In addition this nature is able to contain the Holy Spirit and the power of God.

Nothing at all like the Law of Moses!

JLB

 

[John 8:32]

Let's turn it around, do you believe that adultery is against the law? Is it a sin?

Is this is a "trick" question. Surely you know that I will answer that (in North American countries anyway), adultery is not against the law of the land. And surely you should expect that I will assert that it is a sin.

No trick question at all. I was not referring to the law of the land, I was referring to God's Law. It is against the Law to commit adultery and it is a sin. Is the seventh Commandment still in force? NOw just ask yourself that for the remaining nine.

To answer your question, the New Testament application to this law is that now, Christ is the judge and He will take care of the problem.

prescriptive[/B] for us. I do not see how that makes any sense.

We are no longer under the Aaronical Priesthood...

Heb 7:12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.
Heb 7:13 For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar.
Heb 7:14 For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.
Heb 7:15 And it is yet far more evident: for that after the similitude of Melchisedec there ariseth another priest,

Christ is the High Priest today and He does the judging and sentencing...

Joh 5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:

He judges and sentences. Just because you or I are not in the courtroom, does not mean justice is not or will not be carried out.

What happens to someone who is an unrepentant adulterer today?

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

The penalty is still death and it is inflicted by the Government, just as it was in Moses time.)

I don't understand. The government (in Canada and the USA) certainly does not punish people for adultery.

Bottom line: You appear to want it both ways. You appear to say that the Law of Moses is still in force, but in a way that is of no consequence whatsoever as to how we live. Remember: The law of Moses requires, for example, that we not eat pork. How has Jesus "taken care of that"? If the Law says no pork, how can you, someone who apparently believe the Law still applies, say that its acceptable to eat pork, assuming that this is indeed what you believe?

First of all there is a great difference between the Law of God (the Ten Commandments and the law of Moses, I'll address that in a subsequent post). Anyhoo, why do you think that there is no consequence to breaking God's Law today? Do you really believe that one can live however with no consequences? Does an adulterer live without emotional and physical consequences in the present life? What do you suppose happens in the resurrection? Christ slaps him on the back and says good job? Christ will toss an unrepentant adulterer into the Lake of Fire. Seems to me that is a very serious consequence that results in death for all eternity. Under the New Covenant, we are not given the responsibilty of judging and meeting out punishment. I refer you back to...

Joh 5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:

On the clean and unclean issue, it results in rather lengthy discussions that I think would be outside the purvue of this thread, but I do observe the clean and unclean laws. The understanding for that is...

1Ti 4:3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.

Which meats has God created to be received? This was known long before Mt. Sinai...

Gen 7:2 Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens, the male and his female: and of beasts that are not clean by two, the male and his female.

Clean and unclean were understood before the time of the flood.

1Ti 4:4 For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving:

Notice the colon?

The Bedford Handbook describes several uses of a colon. For example, one can use a colon after an independent clause to direct attention to a list, an appositive, or a quotation. Also, it can be used between independent clauses if the second summarizes or explains the first.

1Ti 4:5 For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.

According to the usage of a colon, verse 5 explains verse 4. What meats are sanctified (set apart) by the Word of God? Lev 11 and Deut 14. Just because this is teh first place it is codified, do you really think this is teh invention of it? Of course not. so to answer that question, I do not eat unclean meats.

If you are saying that Jesus effectively brought the prescriptive force of the Law of Moses to an end, then you and I are in violent agreement.

If I would say that I believe that Christ brought the Law of Moses to an end, I would be in violent DIS-agreement with this direct statement of His...

Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Mat 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

To say that certain of the Laws are no longer practiced because the conditions and circumstances have changed such that they cannot be practiced is completely true. Also, the practice of many of the Old Covenant laws have been changed. Here is an example...

Exo 30:7 And Aaron shall burn thereon sweet incense every morning: when he dresseth the lamps, he shall burn incense upon it.

Now, where did he burn that incense? On the altar of the Tabernacle. Is it in existence today? No. Do we still burn incense today? Many of us do...

Rev 8:3 And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.
Rev 8:4 And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand.

The incense of the old was symbolic and a type of the prayers of the saints. Many of us do this...

Psa 55:17 Evening, and morning, and at noon, will I pray, and cry aloud: and he shall hear my voice.

It is in direct violation to say that a jot or tittle has passed from the Law. To say that the practice of the Law of Moses can change or even come to the point where circumstances and conditions prevent it from being applied is true. Now, the same cannot be said for the Law of God - The Ten Commandments. They are in full force and effect and it is a sin to break any of them...

1Jn 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

 

[Mitspa]

Interesting questions and counter comments.

In the OT Gods people threw the rocks. The curse of the Law demanded that the person be punished. There may have been exceptions or just failure to carry out the given instructions. The curse of the law was in full swing. It was nothing for 70,000 (?) to die in one day for national sin.

Those who accept Jesus are relieved from the curse of the Law.
Galatians 3:13
13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

eddif

This brings an interesting point to the discussion. Several times the Law itself has been referred to as a curse. This verse plainly reveals the curse is the penalty of the Law. What is cursed? Everyone that hangs on a tree. The Law itself, simply reveals what sin is. Our choice is whether we sin or not. If we sin, we come under a curse.

Yes this is very simple, that no one who looks to the Law can be justified by the law. So one who is under the law is always found guilty by the law, thus they are under its cursed.

For cursed are those who CONTINUE NOT, in ALL THINGS WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF THE LAW, TO DO THEM.

so if some look to the 10 commamdments or 9 commandments (As the mordern church does) to judge righteousness they are in fact under the law and its curse.

FOR CHRIST IS THE END OF THE LAW, FOR RIGHTEOUSNESS. Rom 10:3-4

Those who look to the letter are held in the bondage of sin, FOR THE STRENGTH OF SIN IS THE LAW.
Rom 7:8

 

[Mitspa]

Remember: The law of Moses requires, for example, that we not eat pork. How has Jesus "taken care of that"? If the Law says no pork, how can you, someone who apparently believe the Law still applies, say that its acceptable to eat pork, assuming that this is indeed what you believe?

I like this one! So, if the Law of Moses was given to the Children of Israel, and if the law was also discussed by the Apostle of the Gentiles, can we rightly say that it must be extended? Is it possible that the portions of the law that were given to a very stubborn people who were first learning about God are ratified now and were never intended to be passed on in a literal sense, so that Gentile believers may eat pork but may not drink blood? Is it possible that this very "stubbornness" is something that the Lord has worked with and has transformed into a strength, for Behold!: "Where you are weak, there I am strong!" And would we consider it wrong if some guy thought, "Hey! Maybe God was saying something that I don't hear all that well, maybe I could stop eating pork and maybe I could learn something?" The law does not say that if a Gentile were to stop eating lobster they should be stoned. It was given to one people and Jesus said he had another flock. They were given the same instruction if that instruction is heard as, "Deny yourself" and "Follow after me."

Drew? I don't eat pork. Sorry if this upsets you, but I don't. I don't follow the law with any kind of strict adherence either because Doctors give me medicine for high blood pressure and that stuff that I do eat is actually a derivative of pit viper venom. Yep, there is some guy down in Brazil who milks pit vipers for me and others and I eat it. No, I'm not convicted for breaking the Law of Moses. I'm not even really convicted for not trusting God in all things and lifting my "high blood pressure" concerns to him. I am thankful for modern medicine and that my life may be extended because of it, but really? I do trust God to extend or shorten my life-span as He sees fit.

Cordially,
The bird who swallows venom.

Drews point is a good one and an honest question, the same point Paul makes over and over. That anyone who seeks to judge righteousness by the written code of the law, must judge by the whole standard of the law.

This parting of the law is not biblical at all!
There are not some portions of the law required, and others are not.
The law is used by the Apostles as a witness to Christ and the Spirit and love.
It has no power over the believer to make a charge of sin, nor to justifiy in any way.
So having been delivered from the law, we can look to see the purpose of the law and that is was a shadow of what we have in Christ.
But to put believers back under the written code (any part) is not according to the gospel AT ALL.

 

[John 8:32]

Interesting questions and counter comments.

In the OT Gods people threw the rocks. The curse of the Law demanded that the person be punished. There may have been exceptions or just failure to carry out the given instructions. The curse of the law was in full swing. It was nothing for 70,000 (?) to die in one day for national sin.

Those who accept Jesus are relieved from the curse of the Law.
Galatians 3:13
13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

eddif

This brings an interesting point to the discussion. Several times the Law itself has been referred to as a curse. This verse plainly reveals the curse is the penalty of the Law. What is cursed? Everyone that hangs on a tree. The Law itself, simply reveals what sin is. Our choice is whether we sin or not. If we sin, we come under a curse.

Yes this is very simple, that no one who looks to the Law can be justified by the law. So one who is under the law is always found guilty by the law, thus they are under its cursed.

For cursed are those who CONTINUE NOT, in ALL THINGS WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF THE LAW, TO DO THEM.

so if some look to the 10 commamdments or 9 commandments (As the mordern church does) to judge righteousness they are in fact under the law and its curse.

FOR CHRIST IS THE END OF THE LAW, FOR RIGHTEOUSNESS. Rom 10:3-4

Those who look to the letter are held in the bondage of sin, FOR THE STRENGTH OF SIN IS THE LAW.
Rom 7:8

No one here is saying they can be justified by the Law. Rom 5...

Rom 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

 

[Drew]

Drew? Ryan? just curious, how are you two doing? I was happy to be able to introduce you two because I thought of the respect that has grown in me for both you guys as well as your positions regarding the law. I've watched the conversation here & wanted to thank you two (and others!) because so often, as a Moderator, my duty involves a rather negative edge. This isn't the case at all here and I'm just stopping in with compliments and praise. Am "stopping in" also with interest and regard to the discussion that continues here. Glad to see this. Will remain mostly silent as I listen...

Thanks for the interest. I certainly agree that it is much more pleasant to be able to "debate" some issue without sliding into personal attacks. We all (I suspect) struggle to not take disagreements personally, but its a discipline that we need to cultivate.