When did the Law pass or has it passed away?

[John 8:32]

Drew? Ryan? just curious, how are you two doing? I was happy to be able to introduce you two because I thought of the respect that has grown in me for both you guys as well as your positions regarding the law. I've watched the conversation here & wanted to thank you two (and others!) because so often, as a Moderator, my duty involves a rather negative edge. This isn't the case at all here and I'm just stopping in with compliments and praise. Am "stopping in" also with interest and regard to the discussion that continues here. Glad to see this. Will remain mostly silent as I listen...

Thanks for the interest. I certainly agree that it is much more pleasant to be able to "debate" some issue without sliding into personal attacks. We all (I suspect) struggle to not take disagreements personally, but its a discipline that we need to cultivate.

Here here!

 

[Drew]

First of all there is a great difference between the Law of God (the Ten Commandments and the law of Moses, I'll address that in a subsequent post).

I agree. Let me be clear: When I refer to the "Law", I am generally referring to the Law of Moses, which includes the 10 commandments. Your wording almost suggestst that you think that the 10 commandments are not part of the Law of Moses. However, they are indeed part of the Law of Moses, and I am confident that > 99 % of Biblical scholars will support me on this. Anyway, perhaps I misunderstood you.

Anyhoo, why do you think that there is no consequence to breaking God's Law today? Do you really believe that one can live however with no consequences? Does an adulterer live without emotional and physical consequences in the present life? What do you suppose happens in the resurrection? Christ slaps him on the back and says good job? Christ will toss an unrepentant adulterer into the Lake of Fire.

There is obviously some misunderstanding between us. Here is my position:

1. The 10 commandments are part of the Law of Moses - of this there should be no dispute;

2. The Law of Moses has been retired and we no longer need "written" or otherwise "coded" laws to guide us;

3. The Holy Spirit now guides us;

4. Given item (3), I can coherently assert that although the 10 commandments (as part of the Law of Moses) have been retired, this does not mean its ok to commit adultery or steal. Its just that we have the indwelling Spirit shaping us to not do these things - we no longer need a "code" or a formally expressed set of rules;

5. When people say that we still need to be "told" that its sin to steal, we are, I suggest, effectively denying the power of the indwelling Spirit and reverting to the "letter of law" which Paul suggests is something we are to leave behind.

And of course there are consequences to sinning, even in the absence of any formal set of laws. Both in this life and the life to come.

 

[Drew]

This parting of the law is not biblical at all! There are not some portions of the law required, and others are not. The law is used by the Apostles as a witness to Christ and the Spirit and love. It has no power over the believer to make a charge of sin, nor to justifiy in any way. So having been delivered from the law, we can look to see the purpose of the law and that is was a shadow of what we have in Christ. But to put believers back under the written code (any part) is not according to the gospel AT ALL.

Although I might not word it exactly as you have, we happen to agree on all these things. Paul is quite adamant: when he encounters Jews (or even Gentiles) who want to continue in the Law of Moses, he rebukes them. Now, as I have conceded in another post, there are times when Paul observes the law. But let's be realistic - there are settings in which he might do so to avoid a riot; his occasional observance of the Law of Moses (post-conversion) does not offset the theme he repeatedly endorses: The time of the Law of Moses has come to an end.

 

[Drew]

Is the seventh Commandment still in force? NOw just ask yourself that for the remaining nine.

By now, you should not be surprised when I assert that, no, the 7th commandment is not in force.

But, as I will continue to assert, this does not mean that its OK to commit adultery. As Paul argue, the believer is given the Holy Spirit. And surely someone indwelled by the Holy Spirit does not need to be told to not commit adultery.

When you come upon a puppy on the sidewalk blocking your path, do you really need to search for a rule to tell you that its not OK to boot the puppy into the air to clear your way forward?

 

[Drew]

The law can still define physical sin.

Are you sure? People often forget that the Law of Moses contians prescriptions that neither seem sinful to us in our culture and / or would be very hard to follow. Some examples:

Do not mate different kinds of animals.

Do not plant your field with two kinds of seed.

Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material.

If the Law of Moses "defines physical sin", it must mean that the things listed above are sin. Do you beleive this?

Please note: I am always, rightly I believe, suspicious if and when people start splitting the Law of Moses up into different parts and then, apparently without Biblical justification, say that certain chunks apply to us and certain chunks do not. I am not suggesting that you are going to use that strategy; I am merely expressing my concern over the strategy as it is used by some people.

 

[John 8:32]

First of all there is a great difference between the Law of God (the Ten Commandments and the law of Moses, I'll address that in a subsequent post).

I agree. Let me be clear: When I refer to the "Law", I am generally referring to the Law of Moses, which includes the 10 commandments. Your wording almost suggestst that you think that the 10 commandments are not part of the Law of Moses. However, they are indeed part of the Law of Moses, and I am confident that > 99 % of Biblical scholars will support me on this. Anyway, perhaps I misunderstood you.

Anyhoo, why do you think that there is no consequence to breaking God's Law today? Do you really believe that one can live however with no consequences? Does an adulterer live without emotional and physical consequences in the present life? What do you suppose happens in the resurrection? Christ slaps him on the back and says good job? Christ will toss an unrepentant adulterer into the Lake of Fire.

There is obviously some misunderstanding between us. Here is my position:

1. The 10 commandments are part of the Law of Moses - of this there should be no dispute;

Oh, I think it is easily disputed, see below.

2. The Law of Moses has been retired and we no longer need "written" or otherwise "coded" laws to guide us;

Please square that with these...

Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Mat 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

Rom 7:12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

And that verse reveals the entire problem. The problem is not the Law, it is us.

3. The Holy Spirit now guides us;

In this we are in agreement. It guides us into the spiritual aspects of the Law.

4. Given item (3), I can coherently assert that although the 10 commandments (as part of the Law of Moses) have been retired, this does not mean its ok to commit adultery or steal. Its just that we have the indwelling Spirit shaping us to not do these things - we no longer need a "code" or a formally expressed set of rules;

So then, why do all these groups that are supposedly guided by the Holy Spirit and don't need the Law, not in lock step? Why do they differ as to what is right and wrong? And please explain this scripture...

Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

in which Paul blatantly quotes the seventh Commandment as sin.

And then there is...

1Jn 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

5. When people say that we still need to be "told" that its sin to steal, we are, I suggest, effectively denying the power of the indwelling Spirit and reverting to the "letter of law" which Paul suggests is something we are to leave behind.

And of course there are consequences to sinning, even in the absence of any formal set of laws. Both in this life and the life to come.

Again, why is there not absolute agreement widespread on what is sin? We don't get to define it and that is what Paul plainly says...

Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

The Law defines sin. Our choice is whether we want to sin or not, we do not get the privilege of defining sin. That is the bill of goods the Devil sold Eve...

Gen 3:5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.


As far as the Law of God and the Law of Moses...

The Law of God written in stone, written with the finger of God...

Exo 31:18 And he gave unto Moses, when he had made an end of communing with him upon mount Sinai, two tables of testimony, tables of stone, written with the finger of God.

Exo 32:16 And the tables were the work of God, and the writing was the writing of God, graven upon the tables.

The Law of Moses, written in a book by Moses...

2Ch 35:12 And they removed the burnt offerings, that they might give according to the divisions of the families of the people, to offer unto the LORD, as it is written in the book of Moses. And so did they with the oxen.

The Law of God placed within the Ark...

Exo 40:20 And he took and put the testimony into the ark, and set the staves on the ark, and put the mercy seat above upon the ark:

Deu 10:2 And I will write on the tables the words that were in the first tables which thou brakest, and thou shalt put them in the ark.

The law of Moses beside the Ark...

Deu 31:25 That Moses commanded the Levites, which bare the ark of the covenant of the LORD, saying,

Deu 31:26 Take this book of the law, and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may be there for a witness against thee.


New International Version (©2011)
"Take this Book of the Law and place it beside the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God. There it will remain as a witness against you.

New Living Translation (©2007)
"Take this Book of Instruction and place it beside the Ark of the Covenant of the LORD your God, so it may remain there as a witness against the people of Israel.

English Standard Version (©2001)
“Take this Book of the Law and put it by the side of the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may be there for a witness against you.

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
"Take this book of the law and place it beside the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may remain there as a witness against you.

As you can see, these are not the same. The Ten Commandments were given and...

Deu 5:22 These words the LORD spake unto all your assembly in the mount out of the midst of the fire, of the cloud, and of the thick darkness, with a great voice: and he added no more. And he wrote them in two tables of stone, and delivered them unto me.

God added no more to His Law.

Now something was added, what was it?

Jer 7:22 For I spake not unto your fathers, nor commanded them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices:

The Law of Moses was added. It was written in a book and placed beside the Ark, most likely on a table as most commentators suggest. The Law of God was given at Mt. Sinai, He added no more to the Ten Commandments. They were Ten Laws, written in stone with the finger of God and placed inside the Ark.

Yes, there is a difference between the Law of God and the Law of Moses.

 

[John 8:32]

Is the seventh Commandment still in force? NOw just ask yourself that for the remaining nine.

By now, you should not be surprised when I assert that, no, the 7th commandment is not in force.

But, as I will continue to assert, this does not mean that its OK to commit adultery. As Paul argue, the believer is given the Holy Spirit. And surely someone indwelled by the Holy Spirit does not need to be told to not commit adultery.

And yet, Paul said...

Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

Paul says here he would not have known it was sin to lust except the Law says it is. So whatever you or I think, the preserved scripture says that we do not know sin without the Law.

When you come upon a puppy on the sidewalk blocking your path, do you really need to search for a rule to tell you that its not OK to boot the puppy into the air to clear your way forward?

An yet "puppies are kicked" (sin is committed) daily by Christians.

 

[John 8:32]

The law can still define physical sin.

Are you sure? People often forget that the Law of Moses contians prescriptions that neither seem sinful to us in our culture and / or would be very hard to follow. Some examples:

Do not mate different kinds of animals.

Actually, it says don't yoke an ox and an ass together. Is there a N.T. application...

2Co 6:14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?

Do not plant your field with two kinds of seed.

See above.

Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material.

It does not say that, it specifies wool and linen and involves the animal wool and linen. A mixing of earthly and spiritual. The principle is to worship god as He ordains, not as the natural people around you do...

Deu 12:29 When the LORD thy God shall cut off the nations from before thee, whither thou goest to possess them, and thou succeedest them, and dwellest in their land;
Deu 12:30 Take heed to thyself that thou be not snared by following them, after that they be destroyed from before thee; and that thou enquire not after their gods, saying, How did these nations serve their gods? even so will I do likewise.
Deu 12:31 Thou shalt not do so unto the LORD thy God: for every abomination to the LORD, which he hateth, have they done unto their gods; for even their sons and their daughters they have burnt in the fire to their gods.
Deu 12:32 What thing soever I command you, observe to do it: thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it.

If the Law of Moses "defines physical sin", it must mean that the things listed above are sin. Do you beleive this?

Please note: I am always, rightly I believe, suspicious if and when people start splitting the Law of Moses up into different parts and then, apparently without Biblical justification, say that certain chunks apply to us and certain chunks do not. I am not suggesting that you are going to use that strategy; I am merely expressing my concern over the strategy as it is used by some people.

I am always very concerned over the statements that directly contradict what Christ and Paul say about the Law.

 

[JLB]

I am always very concerned over the statements that directly contradict what Christ and Paul say about the Law.

The law and the prophets were until John. Since that time the kingdom of God has been preached, and everyone is pressing into it.

I agree.


JLB

 

[Sparkey]

It has no power over the believer to make a charge of sin

Don't drink blood. There may be 3 other ordinances and 2 Greatest Commandments that are directly applied in the New Testament? I think so, but we've spoken about this before. The point that is being discussed (if I don't miss the mark here) is about your statement, "put[ing] believers back under the written code (any part)..."

Were the Children of Israel put under the law by God through Moses? I think we all agree they were.
Were the Jews who followed Jesus and who became his "sent ones" (Apostles) put under? Well, no. What we see in Acts is a discussion that shows that they were made free.
What about Jews who come after? Are they prohibited from following the law? Well, yes and no. There is no commandment, "If you don't eat lobster you shall be stoned," but then, and as you say, this is no longer about righteousness. Could we think about a law that essentially requires the foreskin of those circumcised to be replaced? I think no. Now, as far as the requirement of rightness and righteousness goes, this has not changed. We are to put God first in our hearts, minds and lives. Nothing has change there. We are to consider Him in all our ways. Again, no change. Am I sinning when I eat the venom derived from Brazilian Pit Vipers? I would say, "Mitspa, (or Drew, or John 8:32, or Ryan or JLB, or any other!), you tell me," but if were to ask you, you may rightly reply, "But Sparrow, I am not your judge!" and I would agree. No, my claim for righteousness comes from the exchange that Jesus offered, my shame for his uprightness and his righteousness. That's a great deal for me and I also wonder about how it was a good deal for him, but that wonder brings us into another conversation. The conversation about the bridegroom and the wedding of the Lamb. That was discussed between Father and Son and we are privy to that discussion by the Grace of God and the Mercy within Him who is Good.

Cordially,
Sparrow

It has no power over the believer to make a charge of sin

Agreed, but sadly some will refuse to put on the wedding garment.

 

[Mitspa]

The law can still define physical sin.

Are you sure? People often forget that the Law of Moses contians prescriptions that neither seem sinful to us in our culture and / or would be very hard to follow. Some examples:

Do not mate different kinds of animals.

Do not plant your field with two kinds of seed.

Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material.

If the Law of Moses "defines physical sin", it must mean that the things listed above are sin. Do you beleive this?

Please note: I am always, rightly I believe, suspicious if and when people start splitting the Law of Moses up into different parts and then, apparently without Biblical justification, say that certain chunks apply to us and certain chunks do not. I am not suggesting that you are going to use that strategy; I am merely expressing my concern over the strategy as it is used by some people.

Not to mention the sabbath, which is on saturday by the way!
REMEMBER THE SABBATH, is this not one of the Ten Commandments? If the church was under law, it would keep the sabbath and would have kept it from the beginning of the church. But it clearly did not! BECAUSE THEY KNEW VERY WELL THEY HAD BEEN GIVE LIBERTY FROM THE LAW.
The sabbath was fulfilled by Christ, as was every jot and tittle of the law.

 

[Mitspa]

It has no power over the believer to make a charge of sin

Don't drink blood. There may be 3 other ordinances and 2 Greatest Commandments that are directly applied in the New Testament? I think so, but we've spoken about this before. The point that is being discussed (if I don't miss the mark here) is about your statement, "put[ing] believers back under the written code (any part)..."

Were the Children of Israel put under the law by God through Moses? I think we all agree they were.
Were the Jews who followed Jesus and who became his "sent ones" (Apostles) put under? Well, no. What we see in Acts is a discussion that shows that they were made free.
What about Jews who come after? Are they prohibited from following the law? Well, yes and no. There is no commandment, "If you don't eat lobster you shall be stoned," but then, and as you say, this is no longer about righteousness. Could we think about a law that essentially requires the foreskin of those circumcised to be replaced? I think no. Now, as far as the requirement of rightness and righteousness goes, this has not changed. We are to put God first in our hearts, minds and lives. Nothing has change there. We are to consider Him in all our ways. Again, no change. Am I sinning when I eat the venom derived from Brazilian Pit Vipers? I would say, "Mitspa, (or Drew, or John 8:32, or Ryan or JLB, or any other!), you tell me," but if were to ask you, you may rightly reply, "But Sparrow, I am not your judge!" and I would agree. No, my claim for righteousness comes from the exchange that Jesus offered, my shame for his uprightness and his righteousness. That's a great deal for me and I also wonder about how it was a good deal for him, but that wonder brings us into another conversation. The conversation about the bridegroom and the wedding of the Lamb. That was discussed between Father and Son and we are privy to that discussion by the Grace of God and the Mercy within Him who is Good.

Cordially,
Sparrow

It has no power over the believer to make a charge of sin

Agreed, but sadly some will refuse to put on the wedding garment.

We agree on much, but on the "wedding garment" God gives His righteouness as a FREE GIFT. the reason so few put on righteousness, and walk in the power of grace, is because so many are teaching the law, and that righteousness is earned by the written code.
Now, the law is spiritual. It was a shadow of the Holy Spirit.
No man has loved God, with all their strength, mind etc.. save Christ. Our ability to love God is a joke, apart from Gods love for us being shed abroad in our hearts, by the Holy Spirit.
Now the pharisee would have kill others to prove that they loved God, but they did not! They hated God, and tried to kill Him.
Those who boast in their love for God, are like Peter! They will not stand the test when it comes. Those who boast in Gods love for them, will be as John, who stood with Him at His Cross.
From faith to faith, is the only way! The law is not of faith, no matter how many times religion calls it faith, it is not!

Whatever is not of faith, IS SIN!

 

[Mitspa]

The fact that by the law, is the knowledge of sin? Does not mean that if we know sin we can not sin.
Rom 7:7-8

The purpose was to make us all guilty and to shut the mouth of those who make their boast in the law and their own ability.
Yes it is good to know we are sinners, so that we can turn to Christ. And turn away from our own righteousness unto Gods Righteousness.
Rom 3:19-23

This is the point of knowing sin!

 

[Sparkey]

We agree on much, but on the "wedding garment" God gives His righteouness as a FREE GIFT.

Well, pardon my saying but I do agree with you. I do. (don't you love the sound of those two words? I do.) I have exchanged my shame, but it is nothing, less than nothing. It is a necessary exchange so that I may lift my eyes unto my Lord. I need to do that. So now, how about we turn our eye together and seek to hasten the Day? It can be hastened! Pretty sure that I've studied this well, and also am guessing that you may have too.

Cordially,
Sparrow

 

[eddif]

Interesting questions and counter comments.

In the OT Gods people threw the rocks. The curse of the Law demanded that the person be punished. There may have been exceptions or just failure to carry out the given instructions. The curse of the law was in full swing. It was nothing for 70,000 (?) to die in one day for national sin.

Those who accept Jesus are relieved from the curse of the Law.
Galatians 3:13
13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

eddif

This brings an interesting point to the discussion. Several times the Law itself has been referred to as a curse. This verse plainly reveals the curse is the penalty of the Law. What is cursed? Everyone that hangs on a tree. The Law itself, simply reveals what sin is. Our choice is whether we sin or not. If we sin, we come under a curse.

The law contains blessings and curses:
Blessing (totally depends on what they do)
II Chronicles 7:14
14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

Curse
II Chronicles 7:19-20
19 But if ye turn away, and forsake my statutes and my commandments, which I have set before you, and shall go and serve other gods, and worship them;
20 Then will I pluck them up by the roots out of my land which I have given them; and this house, which I have sanctified for my name, will I cast out of my sight, and will make it to be a proverb and a byword among all nations.

This thread is like 5 lanes of traffic doing all the law allows. I just need to move all the way over to the slow lane and try to maintain minimum speed (minimum speed for Mississippi folks is tough - being slow and all that). LOL

Under the law if you sin, you come under the curse of the Law. Just show the person is guilty and let the law take its course. Repenting will not get you permanently from under the curse of the Law. The Law was good for a year at a time.

Under grace you are given the opportunity to confess your sins and be worked with on a permanent basis (if you remain in the faith). This is something that can be abused, and abuse will result of your being removed from felowship and put under satans dominion to learn not to blaspheme. Little better deal than the OT. Jesus once and for all time bore sins (not that we should crucify him again). Church discipline is to restore.

As a gentile I live a very thankful life as being grafted in. Thank you Jesus.

eddif

 

[eddif]

Actually, it says don't yoke an ox and an ass together. Is there a N.T. application...

2Co 6:14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?




See above.

Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material.

It does not say that, it specifies wool and linen and involves the animal wool and linen. A mixing of earthly and spiritual. The principle is to worship god as He ordains, not as the natural people around you do...

Deu 12:29 When the LORD thy God shall cut off the nations from before thee, whither thou goest to possess them, and thou succeedest them, and dwellest in their land;
Deu 12:30 Take heed to thyself that thou be not snared by following them, after that they be destroyed from before thee; and that thou enquire not after their gods, saying, How did these nations serve their gods? even so will I do likewise.
Deu 12:31 Thou shalt not do so unto the LORD thy God: for every abomination to the LORD, which he hateth, have they done unto their gods; for even their sons and their daughters they have burnt in the fire to their gods.
Deu 12:32 What thing soever I command you, observe to do it: thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it.

If the Law of Moses "defines physical sin", it must mean that the things listed above are sin. Do you beleive this?

Please note: I am always, rightly I believe, suspicious if and when people start splitting the Law of Moses up into different parts and then, apparently without Biblical justification, say that certain chunks apply to us and certain chunks do not. I am not suggesting that you are going to use that strategy; I am merely expressing my concern over the strategy as it is used by some people.

I am always very concerned over the statements that directly contradict what Christ and Paul say about the Law.

The only place I really know that shows how to really understand the meaning of OT law is the Oxen thing.
I Corinthians 9:9-10
9 For it is written in the law of Moses, Thou shalt not muzzle the mouth of the ox that treadeth out the corn. Doth God take care for oxen?
10 Or saith he it altogether for our sakes? For our sakes, no doubt, this is written: that he that ploweth should plow in hope; and that he that thresheth in hope should be partaker of his hope.

Pay the preacher if he is worth a hoot, and if the congregation has funds to do it.

Now I have developed some comments about what the Law might mean in certain passages, but the Oxen discussion is the only passage I know of that takes an OT instruction and really tells that the deepest meaning is about people. In the OT the meaning is concealed, but the NT reveals the meaning. All law is written so that we must search for the deepest meaning (feed the oxen, but realize the deepest and most important thing is to care for pastors / church workers)

eddif

 

[Ryan]

Actually, it says don't yoke an ox and an ass together. Is there a N.T. application...

2Co 6:14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?




See above.

Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material.

It does not say that, it specifies wool and linen and involves the animal wool and linen. A mixing of earthly and spiritual. The principle is to worship god as He ordains, not as the natural people around you do...

Deu 12:29 When the LORD thy God shall cut off the nations from before thee, whither thou goest to possess them, and thou succeedest them, and dwellest in their land;
Deu 12:30 Take heed to thyself that thou be not snared by following them, after that they be destroyed from before thee; and that thou enquire not after their gods, saying, How did these nations serve their gods? even so will I do likewise.
Deu 12:31 Thou shalt not do so unto the LORD thy God: for every abomination to the LORD, which he hateth, have they done unto their gods; for even their sons and their daughters they have burnt in the fire to their gods.
Deu 12:32 What thing soever I command you, observe to do it: thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it.

If the Law of Moses "defines physical sin", it must mean that the things listed above are sin. Do you beleive this?

Please note: I am always, rightly I believe, suspicious if and when people start splitting the Law of Moses up into different parts and then, apparently without Biblical justification, say that certain chunks apply to us and certain chunks do not. I am not suggesting that you are going to use that strategy; I am merely expressing my concern over the strategy as it is used by some people.

I am always very concerned over the statements that directly contradict what Christ and Paul say about the Law.

The only place I really know that shows how to really understand the meaning of OT law is the Oxen thing.
I Corinthians 9:9-10
9 For it is written in the law of Moses, Thou shalt not muzzle the mouth of the ox that treadeth out the corn. Doth God take care for oxen?
10 Or saith he it altogether for our sakes? For our sakes, no doubt, this is written: that he that ploweth should plow in hope; and that he that thresheth in hope should be partaker of his hope.

Pay the preacher if he is worth a hoot, and if the congregation has funds to do it.

Now I have developed some comments about what the Law might mean in certain passages, but the Oxen discussion is the only passage I know of that takes an OT instruction and really tells that the deepest meaning is about people. In the OT the meaning is concealed, but the NT reveals the meaning. All law is written so that we must search for the deepest meaning (feed the oxen, but realize the deepest and most important thing is to care for pastors / church workers)

eddif

I think you touched on a good point Eddif. The NT is essentially the OT. I did once post on here a hundred and some direct quotes from Paul, himself quoting the OT. Just a cursory search, shows the endless passages directly quoting the OT.

http://www.kalvesmaki.com/LXX/NTChart.htm

 

[Ryan]

Am I sinning when I eat the venom derived from Brazilian Pit Vipers? I would say, "Mitspa, (or Drew, or John 8:32, or Ryan or JLB, or any other!), you tell me," but if were to ask you, you may rightly reply, "But Sparrow, I am not your judge!" and I would agree. .

Thank you for considering me. You can sleep better, didn't Jesus set the standard a commandment can be broken to preserve life, care for the sick, etc? I'm sure this wasn't keeping you up late at night contemplating this. But an important point and principle Jesus taught nonetheless.

 

[Mitspa]

Of course the New Testament is the "Word of God"
The Word was made flesh and dwelt among us. and we beheld His glory.
Jesus Christ is the Word of God.
The Old Testament was Christ in shadow and type.
The NEW testament is Christ revealed.
Heb 1:1-3
Put it together? He is the Alpha and Omega, The Beggining and the End.
He is the Word of God, and He is God.
Gee, I wonder why Jesus would reveal Himself?

 

[Ryan]

Of course the New Testament is the "Word of God"
The Word was made flesh and dwelt among us. and we beheld His glory.
Jesus Christ is the Word of God.
The Old Testament was Christ in shadow and type.
The NEW testament is Christ revealed.
Heb 1:1-3
Put it together? He is the Alpha and Omega, The Beggining and the End.
He is the Word of God, and He is God.
Gee, I wonder why Jesus would reveal Himself?

And no comment on posts 618 or 619?

Pick and choose which posts you respond to, just like pick and choose which verses you choose to believe even when the truth is smacking you right dab on your screen?