When did the Law pass or has it passed away?

[Mitspa]

Of course, this is still being understood as "justification by the law of Moses", lol. Thus proving my point. :yes

Of course that is what Ryan is trying to promote, and you as well in large degree. But we who have liberty will not be moved from the truth of the Gospel. "Cast out the bondwoman and her son" is the cry of the Holy Spirit! THE LAW IS NOT OF FAITH, WHATSOEVER IS NOT OF FAITH IS SIN.

we should purge the "church" from those who willingly sin.

It's funny but after I made my last post I was in the kitchen fixing my third and last sausage sandwich and I was thinking how the Jews will string you up for any perception of coming against the law, but just as sadly, the church will string you up for suggesting any sympathies for it.

Thank you for confirming my thoughts.

The truly, truly sad part is, Mitspa, you won't give anyone the time, space, and dignity of explaining the rational middle ground between the two extremes of law/ no law. This is what murderous, violent, false religion is ALL about. Summed up in a word: headstrong indoctrination.

How sad it is. Are you humble enough to examine the arguments if I take the time to walk you through them? I'm guessing prolly not because you are sure you already know everything, right? The student who thinks he knows it all now, obviously, has ceased to learn.

We could start here:

Do you 'not murder', or 'not steal' because you are trying to be justified by that obedience? I'm confident the answer is, 'no'. So how is it that Ryan's desire to keep various laws in the Law of Moses can not be anything other than trying to be justified by those obediences? Can you humble yourself enough to examine this train of thought with me, Mitspa...or anyone else?

Of course challenging your false doctrines, it the same a "stringing people up" and what you teach is taught in every church that has a big Ten Commandments posted somewhere.
This is most of the modern church, half under grace and half under law. Which takes away the power of both.

And I have been around the circle of your doctrines for hours and hours and you always come back to the same thing. The believer justified by the written code "parts" of the written code.
I stand by grace, and the truth of the gospel.
THE LAW IS NOT OF FAITH.
THE LETTER KILLS BUT THE SPIRIT GIVES LIFE.

I am not nor do not need to be judged by the law of moses, Love fulfills the law. FOR HE WHO LOVES ANOTHER HAS FULFILLED THE LAW.

 

[Mitspa]

And of course none of you keep the law, but are breakers of the law.

I am absolutely convinced you do not know the gospel of Jesus Christ as well as you claim to know, and believe you have been called and anointed to teach.

Obviously, using your own reasoning, you also are a law breaker. Somehow if one's set of 'rules' is clearly identified as the Law of Moses you have to keep it perfectly, but if your 'rule' is 'love your neighbor as yourself' it somehow doesn't have to be kept perfectly. (As if 'love your neighbor as yourself' is not the Law of Moses anyway, lol).

This is why I say you do not understand the gospel as well as you think you do.

if you have not noticed, I am not too concerned about your opinion of me, so please just save us both some button pushing and some reading and get to the issue. The strength of sin is the law, its purpose is to make one guilty. Now that no man can keep the written code is evident. For the commandments produce sinful desires. Rom 7:7-8
I am not under the law of moses, I am justified freely by the grace of God. I have no sin, I cannot sin against the law of moses, Because I am justified by Christ.

 

[Mitspa]

That is what people do when they are threatened by something else. Attack without evidence. Messianic Judaism has at our centre Jesus whom salvation apart from faith is impossible.

Any form of Judaism is religion.

Being sons of God is what was always intended.

What kind of religion do you have with your son?

God intends for us to come to Him and learn from Him "good from evil". Not learn what is good and what is evil from man.

Judaism is what man turned Covenant relationship in to.

God, by His Grace gave the children of Israel laws, which would enable Him to continue to bless them with the blessings of Abraham because they had been in Egypt for 430 years.

He also gave them them innocent animals to sacrifice when they broke His laws.

The law of Moses was added [without changing] to the covenant He made with Abraham, temporarily.

By the time The Seed had come, they had added so many laws, via additional writings, which became traditions.

Paul in a nutshell reveals the antichrist nature of Judaism in his words -

12 For I neither received it from man, nor was I taught it, but it came through the revelation of Jesus Christ. 13 For you have heard of my former conduct in Judaism, how I persecuted the church of God beyond measure and tried to destroy it. 14 And I advanced in Judaism beyond many of my contemporaries in my own nation, being more exceedingly zealous for the traditions of my fathers. Galatians 1:12-14


how I persecuted the church of God beyond measure and tried to destroy it. And I advanced in Judaism beyond many of my contemporaries in my own nation, being more exceedingly zealous for the traditions of my fathers.

Judaism is not what God gave.

Judaism is a religion of man.

It is the religion of the Pharisee's and Saducee's that murdered Christ Jesus.

Judaism is an antichrist religion.

Paul states that Judaism is a religion that has within it the traditions on men, and has at its heart the anti christian persecuting nature that drove him to murder Christians.

Jesus calls this persecuting Him, as it is written -

Saul, Saul why do you persecute Me!

It doesn't get any more antichrist that to murder Jesus and those whose are His.


JLB

Completely saddened by this. Likening Messianic Judaism to the antichrist. You really have no idea what you are saying.

Ok, lets reason together.

I quoted scripture.

Here is the scripture I quoted -

2 For I neither received it from man, nor was I taught it, but it came through the revelation of Jesus Christ. 13 For you have heard of my former conduct in Judaism, how I persecuted the church of God beyond measure and tried to destroy it. 14 And I advanced in Judaism beyond many of my contemporaries in my own nation, being more exceedingly zealous for the traditions of my fathers. Galatians 1:12-14

Here are some things that Paul said in these verses -

I advanced in Judaism beyond many of my contemporaries in my own nation, being more exceedingly zealous for the traditions of my fathers.

Did the Law of Moses make provision for Crucifying Christ and murdering His followers?

JLB

No! This proves the very vainity of those who think they can keep the written code! For those who make their boast in the law, HOW THEY LOVE GOD! 1st commandment, are the ones who hate God and His people.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Of course challenging your false doctrines, it the same a "stringing people up"...

Of course 'false doctrine' is the excuse many Christians use to handle those they perceive as dangers to the sacred doctrines of the church with the cruelty, harshness, and coldness they insist Christianity is NOT all about. That's the scary hypocrisy of the church that shuts the ears of the very people we want to reach. It's especially apparent, and hard to acknowledge, when the one's that get alienated by our 'religious' attitudes are our own unsaved family members.

I'm pointing out that your words reveal the very attitude that murderous, hateful 'religion' is built upon. To what extent you are involved in the actual activities of hatred that attitude carries out, I do not know. I'm pointing out the attitude that under girds that ugly side of us Christians, but which we chastise the Jews for having about the law. We share in the same 'spirit' that put Jesus to death.

...and what you teach is taught in every church that has a big Ten Commandments posted somewhere.
This is most of the modern church, half under grace and half under law. Which takes away the power of both.

I wish this was truer than you claim that it is. IMO, the Church's 'grace w/o rules' is easily the more prevalent doctrine in the church today.

I wish law was mixed up more in it because I think there is more hope for someone who has yet to die to the law than one who has died to the law but who continues in the hypocrisy of the all too popular 'grace w/o rules, leave me alone, I'm not under the law anymore' belief in the church today.

And I have been around the circle of your doctrines for hours and hours and you always come back to the same thing. The believer justified by the written code "parts" of the written code.
I stand by grace, and the truth of the gospel.
THE LAW IS NOT OF FAITH.
THE LETTER KILLS BUT THE SPIRIT GIVES LIFE.

Actually that's YOU that keeps coming back to that same old thing, lol.

I am not nor do not need to be judged by the law of moses, Love fulfills the law. FOR HE WHO LOVES ANOTHER HAS FULFILLED THE LAW.

James and John both use the law to illustrate what love looks like, but you? You don't need that, right? I guess you know better than those who God chose to speak to his people for the rest of human history in the pages of our Bibles.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

JLB, where were we?

Romans 3:31, I think?

You say the law that gets upheld by faith is not the law of Moses, or any part of the law of Moses, but rather the law of faith?

Before we start I guess I should be clear on how you define the law of faith.

 

[JLB]

It's funny but after I made my last post I was in the kitchen fixing my third and last sausage sandwich

Was that sausage Kosher?

Jethro, would you answer my question that Ryan ignored -

Did the Law of Moses make provision for Crucifying Christ and murdering His followers?


JLB

 

[Ryan]

It's funny but after I made my last post I was in the kitchen fixing my third and last sausage sandwich

Was that sausage Kosher?

Jethro, would you answer my question that Ryan ignored -

Did the Law of Moses make provision for Crucifying Christ and murdering His followers?


JLB

How could a perfect law have provisions to execute a perfect man? Not ignoring nothing.

 

[JLB]

It's funny but after I made my last post I was in the kitchen fixing my third and last sausage sandwich

Was that sausage Kosher?

Jethro, would you answer my question that Ryan ignored -

Did the Law of Moses make provision for Crucifying Christ and murdering His followers?


JLB

How could a perfect law have provisions to execute a perfect man? Not ignoring nothing.

Please answer my question with a yes or No.

I answered your question that you asked me.

Did the Law of Moses make provision for crucifying Christ and His followers.

This question is in the "vein" of our discussion about Judaism.


JLB

 

[Ryan]

Jethro,

Thank you for that and am glad you know the history of these so called church fathers and the anti-semitism that existed, proliferated and apparently continues in many believers today. I am not a Judaizer, justified by works, legalist, ect. Happy you heard that and can't wait to eat a kosher sausage with you at the marriage supper.

Regards,
Ryan

 

[Ryan]

It's funny but after I made my last post I was in the kitchen fixing my third and last sausage sandwich

Was that sausage Kosher?

Jethro, would you answer my question that Ryan ignored -

Did the Law of Moses make provision for Crucifying Christ and murdering His followers?


JLB

How could a perfect law have provisions to execute a perfect man? Not ignoring nothing.

Please answer my question with a yes or No.

I answered your question that you asked me.

Did the Law of Moses make provision for crucifying Christ and His followers.

This question is in the "vein" of our discussion about Judaism.


JLB

Lol. Find me in the Law of Moses where one is to condemn an innocent man?

And while you're looking, think of this passage:

1 Timothy 1:8 But we know that the Law is good, if one uses it lawfully,

Were the Pharisees using the law lawfully ?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

It's funny but after I made my last post I was in the kitchen fixing my third and last sausage sandwich

Was that sausage Kosher?

Honestly, I don't know, lol. (I knew it would get a rise out of somebody.)

Jethro, would you answer my question that Ryan ignored -

Did the Law of Moses make provision for Crucifying Christ and murdering His followers?

Well, as we see he's not ignoring it at all.

And of course, it does not have that provision, but why is any and all sympathy for the Law of Moses a vote of confidence for the errors and blindness and stupidity of the godless Jewish leadership, who didn't know God at all, and their misunderstanding of the law? That's as blind and misguided as the error of the Jews you assail! Surely you have to agree with that.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Jethro,

Thank you for that and am glad you know the history of these so called church fathers and the anti-semitism that existed, proliferated and apparently continues in many believers today. I am not a Judaizer, justified by works, legalist, ect. Happy you heard that and can't wait to eat a kosher sausage with you at the marriage supper.

Regards,
Ryan

I'll be joyfully representing those of us coming from the 'west' to take our places at the feast.

 

[JLB]

How could a perfect law have provisions to execute a perfect man? Not ignoring nothing.

You don't know what your saying -

18 For on the one hand there is an annulling of the former commandment because of its weakness and unprofitableness, 19 for the law made nothing perfect; on the other hand, there is the bringing in of a better hope, through which we draw near to God.

The Law of the Lord, the Law that He teaches to each person as He wanted to teach to Adam, The Laws and statutes and precepts He taught to Abraham and any one else who draws near to know Him and to learn from Him is perfect.

The Law of Moses as a whole was not perfect, and it is that point I want to make about those who desiring to be teachers of the law, understanding neither what they say nor the things which they affirm. 1 Timothy 1:7

I absolutely agree that Christians to today don't understand Grace and think that they can live a lawless lifestyle.

But, the answer is not to try implement the Law of Moses into the Church, which is what the Messianic movement as a whole is trying to do.

The Lord desires relationship, every day. For us to draw near to Him and to learn from Him.


39 You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me. 40 But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life. John 5:39-40

We have been given a nature that requires being filled with the Holy Spirit, not the endless study of the Law of Moses.

If you neglect to be filled with the Holy Spirit your New Covenant walk will be one that is dominated by the desires of the flesh.

A desire to return Judaism only tells me you don't understand this.

Spending time with the Lord worshiping Him and praying in the Spirit is what the new nature in the believer is empowered by.

When you are filled with the Spirit, The Spirit will lead you and guide you into all truth in the word and in daily life.

Returning to the Law of Moses will not fill you with the Spirit.

JLB

 

[Mitspa]

Of course 'false doctrine' is the excuse many Christians use to handle those they perceive as dangers to the sacred doctrines of the church with the cruelty, harshness, and coldness they insist Christianity is NOT all about. That's the scary hypocrisy of the church that shuts the ears of the very people we want to reach. It's especially apparent, and hard to acknowledge, when the one's that get alienated by our 'religious' attitudes are our own unsaved family members.

I'm pointing out that your words reveal the very attitude that murderous, hateful 'religion' is built upon. To what extent you are involved in the actual activities of hatred that attitude carries out, I do not know. I'm pointing out the attitude that under girds that ugly side of us Christians, but which we chastise the Jews for having about the law. We share in the same 'spirit' that put Jesus to death.




I wish this was truer than you claim that it is. IMO, the Church's 'grace w/o rules' is easily the more prevalent doctrine in the church today.

I wish law was mixed up more in it because I think there is more hope for someone who has yet to die to the law than one who has died to the law but who continues in the hypocrisy of the all too popular 'grace w/o rules, leave me alone, I'm not under the law anymore' belief in the church today.




Actually that's YOU that keeps coming back to that same old thing, lol.

I am not nor do not need to be judged by the law of moses, Love fulfills the law. FOR HE WHO LOVES ANOTHER HAS FULFILLED THE LAW.

James and John both use the law to illustrate what love looks like, but you? You don't need that, right? I guess you know better than those who God chose to speak to his people for the rest of human history in the pages of our Bibles.

Yes James, John and Paul! That the law stands as a witness to the Spirit and love in the Spirit.

I have made that point over and over, glad to see you move toward the truth. Maybe my time has not been wasted with you?

 

[Mitspa]

It's funny but after I made my last post I was in the kitchen fixing my third and last sausage sandwich

Was that sausage Kosher?

Honestly, I don't know, lol. (I knew it would get a rise out of somebody.)

Jethro, would you answer my question that Ryan ignored -

Did the Law of Moses make provision for Crucifying Christ and murdering His followers?

Well, as we see he's not ignoring it at all.

And of course, it does not have that provision, but why is any and all sympathy for the Law of Moses a vote of confidence for the errors and blindness and stupidity of the godless Jewish leadership, who didn't know God at all, and their misunderstanding of the law? That's as blind and misguided as the error of the Jews you assail! Surely you have to agree with that.

Where does this blindness come from? 2 Cor 3:13-15
Do you think that the letter blinds the jew and not the gentile?

THE MINISTRY OF DEATH, WRITTEN AND ENGRAVED IN STONES. (THE 10 COMMANDMENTS)

 

[JLB]

How could a perfect law have provisions to execute a perfect man? Not ignoring nothing.

Please answer my question with a yes or No.

I answered your question that you asked me.

Did the Law of Moses make provision for crucifying Christ and His followers.

This question is in the "vein" of our discussion about Judaism.


JLB

Lol. Find me in the Law of Moses where one is to condemn an innocent man?

And while you're looking, think of this passage:

1 Timothy 1:8 But we know that the Law is good, if one uses it lawfully,

Were the Pharisees using the law lawfully ?

You have answered with a question again

Ok, for a third time I ask you.

Does the Law of Moses make provision to murder Christ Jesus and His followers?


Please, if you know the answer, then answer with a yes or a no.


JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Where does this blindness come from? 2 Cor 3:13-15
Do you think that the letter blinds the jew and not the gentile?

THE MINISTRY OF DEATH, WRITTEN AND ENGRAVED IN STONES. (THE 10 COMMANDMENTS)

In the case of the Jews, and any gentile who thinks the same, it blinds the one who thinks it is the way to be justified before God, thinking it is in and of itself the source of righteousness. But somehow you think simply wanting to uphold the righteous requirements of the holy and good law of Moses through faith in the blood of Christ by the Holy Spirit is to be blind and accursed. To believe THAT, my friend, is to be blind.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Of course 'false doctrine' is the excuse many Christians use to handle those they perceive as dangers to the sacred doctrines of the church with the cruelty, harshness, and coldness they insist Christianity is NOT all about. That's the scary hypocrisy of the church that shuts the ears of the very people we want to reach. It's especially apparent, and hard to acknowledge, when the one's that get alienated by our 'religious' attitudes are our own unsaved family members.

I'm pointing out that your words reveal the very attitude that murderous, hateful 'religion' is built upon. To what extent you are involved in the actual activities of hatred that attitude carries out, I do not know. I'm pointing out the attitude that under girds that ugly side of us Christians, but which we chastise the Jews for having about the law. We share in the same 'spirit' that put Jesus to death.




I wish this was truer than you claim that it is. IMO, the Church's 'grace w/o rules' is easily the more prevalent doctrine in the church today.

I wish law was mixed up more in it because I think there is more hope for someone who has yet to die to the law than one who has died to the law but who continues in the hypocrisy of the all too popular 'grace w/o rules, leave me alone, I'm not under the law anymore' belief in the church today.




Actually that's YOU that keeps coming back to that same old thing, lol.

I am not nor do not need to be judged by the law of moses, Love fulfills the law. FOR HE WHO LOVES ANOTHER HAS FULFILLED THE LAW.

James and John both use the law to illustrate what love looks like, but you? You don't need that, right? I guess you know better than those who God chose to speak to his people for the rest of human history in the pages of our Bibles.

Yes James, John and Paul! That the law stands as a witness to the Spirit and love in the Spirit.

I have made that point over and over, glad to see you move toward the truth. Maybe my time has not been wasted with you?

I think we can all see who's coming around.

But sadly, it will be that once again you will seem to be acknowledging the truth but will show yourself to really be stuck in the same vein of belief you were in. I've noticed this pattern in your responses when your doctrine gets nailed to the wall.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

You have answered with a question again

Ok, for a third time I ask you.

Does the Law of Moses make provision to murder Christ Jesus and His followers?


Please, if you know the answer, then answer with a yes or a no.


JLB

Ryan and I both answered it.

How is it that the mistakes of the Jews, and their misuse and misunderstanding of the law, prove what you claim about the law of Moses? It's unreasonable, irrational theology.

 

[JLB]

JLB, where were we?

Romans 3:31, I think?

You say the law that gets upheld by faith is not the law of Moses, or any part of the law of Moses, but rather the law of faith?

Before we start I guess I should be clear on how you define the law of faith.

I had made a comment about verse 27 where Paul was making a legal argument about the law of works vs the law of faith, and we might think he is referring to the Law of Moses.

Paul goes on to say -

28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law. 29 Or is He the God of the Jews only? Is He not also the God of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also, 30 since there is one God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith. 31 Do we then make void the law [the law of works]through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law.

Because the law of works says that you do something to achieve a goal.

The Law of faith says you must believe something to achieve a goal.

However Paul is showing that by faith working by believing what you hear God tell you, you must do what He tells you, for it to be a living faith.

So the law of faith establishes the law of works through obedience.

This works for both Jew and Gentile as Paul states, so it can not be referring to the law of Moses.

Or, maybe it's your belief that Paul intended Gentiles to keep the Law of Moses?

JLB