When did the Law pass or has it passed away?

[Sparkey]

Anyone who wants to understand the truth, can see very well that for the believer, heaven and earth have in fact passed away.

That is an interesting statement.

 

[JLB]

We uphold God's Laws when we are led by God's Spirit.

This of course is not the Law of Moses.

Not the law of Moses, eh? That's not what Paul says:

"28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.
31 Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law." (Romans 3:28, 31 NASB)

You've been victimized by the spiritless rationalizing of a church that couldn't reconcile Paul's 'justification apart from works' with James' 'justification by works'. To fix what they couldn't discern spiritually they decided that they were talking about two different laws. The Bible does not support this at all.

Of course James is speaking of works of faith. Its very simple.
In the SAME CHAPTER paul explains what it means to "ESTABLISH" the law for its purpose. Rom 3:19-23
Which he also covers in clear terms in Gal.
That the pupose of the law was to condemn the whole world.

Now those who "break" the law into pieces and bring its standard down to a carnal level are those who are lawless.

But we who who have no confidence in the flesh, are those who uphold the true standard of the law.

In continuing with the discussion of the temple that will be built and the man of sin that will pose as the Messiah -

1 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3

The strong delusion that God sends involves the a "man" of sin who is working signs and wonders and demanding to be worshiped as God, claiming he is Messiah.

This is a text book example of apostasy. People turning away from the faith to establish there own.

This is not a new concept -

1 "If there arises among you a prophet or a dreamer of dreams, and he gives you a sign or a wonder, 2 and the sign or the wonder comes to pass, of which he spoke to you, saying, 'Let us go after other gods'--which you have not known--'and let us serve them,' 3 you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams, for the Lord your God is testing you to know whether you love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul. 4 You shall walk after the Lord your God and fear Him, and keep His commandments and obey His voice, and you shall serve Him and hold fast to Him.
Deuteronomy 13:1-4


The Messianic Movement is preparing the minds of believers to receive the man of sin, the Lawless one as Messiah. Most of these folks believe Jesus will come before the tribulation.

One such ministry teaching "another" Gospel which is Jesus plus keeping the law of Moses is 119 ministries.

http://www.testeverything.net/what-is-the-gospel

They have 2 one hour videos that "explains" what the Gospel is.

Anyone that needs 2 one hour videos just to "explain" what the Gospel is...

They used to have an open Forum like this one. I actually got into a "conversation" with one of the "moderators" and asked him if he thought that Christians should sacrifice animals when the temple is built and his answer was yes.

He later came back after speaking with his boss and began to "explain" what he meant.

Since that time they do not have a open Forum, but have a lay out where you ask them a question through an approval process, and then you question and their answer are posted for all to see.

It seems their is a "Movement" to prepare people to "turn away from the faith", under the pretense of "obeying the law", which they say is the true Gospel.

They also teach the Gospel didn't start with Jesus but on Sinai with Moses.
They say that in the video.

Here is the scripture they use -

For indeed the gospel was preached to us as well as to them; but the word which they heard did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in those who heard it. Hebrews 4:2

JLB

 

[Mitspa]

wow! I can see such things but it is really hard to understand how folks believe such things when the New Testament stands in complete conflict with this sort of teaching? I seen a great man of God, grap someones jewish prayer cloth and throw it on the ground, one day when this young man came to him for prayer. He told him the problem he had was that he did not trust in the Holy Spirit and looked to these worthless items as that which represents God. I can see more and more are moving into this religious nonsense.

 

[Ryan]

For those who may not understand why I am posting in the "When Law" thread, my thought is that the law fully passes away on the wedding day. It has use until then. This is a thought and not something that I demand to be true, it is a considered thought. The Lord deals with us in His understanding of our place and need according to His abundant mercies. We are called into His service and directed to build each other up in our most holy faith. Hopefully all will work toward this goal.

Your thoughts, please?

I saw something similar to this not to long ago.;)

Maybe Drew's use of the word "olam" has some merit to it. Maybe it meant a long, long time.

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished. Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven."
Matthew 5:17-19

Consider the following:

Now what I am commanding you today is not too difficult for you or beyond your reach...For I command you today to love the LORD your God, to walk in obedience to him, and to keep his commands, decrees and laws...I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse. Therefore choose life, that you and your offspring may live,
Deut. 30:11,16,19,

Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more... And he who was seated on the throne said, "Behold, I am making all things new." Also he said, "Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true." And he said to me, "It is done! Rev. 21:1, 5

Jesus did not come to abolish the Law and Prophets, but to fulfill all of the Law and Prophets.

Not one jot or tittle (any part of the law) will pass away until two criteria are met:
1) Heaven and Earth pass away (NOT DONE YET)
2) All of the Law and Prophets are fulfilled (NOT DONE YET)

Some will say, Yeshua clearly said on the cross "It is finished," thus, now jots and tittles can be removed from God's law.
John 19:30 When he had received the drink, Jesus said, “It is finished.†With that, he bowed his head and gave up his spirit.

What was finished?
Was all of the Law and Prophets finished?
Has heaven and Earth passed away?
Or, was it simply the plan of salvation (the cross) was finished?
Is the plan of salvation (the cross) concluding all of the Law and Prophets?
Did the cross cause heaven and earth to cease?
Why would we need a law in our heavenly bodies?
That must be when the law passes away.

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets;

The Law and the Prophets and the Psalms is what we refer to as the Old testament.

The law of Moses was contained within The Law.

The law of Moses was added till the Seed should come...

The law of Moses was temporary.

JLB

The Hebrew word, torah (תורה), is derived from a root that was used in the realm of archery, yareh (ירה). Yareh means to shoot an arrow in order to hit a mark. The mark or target, of course, was the object at which the archer was aiming (Romans 3:23). Consequently, torah, one of the nouns derived from this root, is, therefore, the arrow aimed at the mark, The target is the truth about God and how one relates to Him. The torah is, therefore, in the strict sense instruction designed to teach us the truth about God. Torah means direction,teaching, instruction,or doctrine. Law comes from "nomos" which comes from Torah. It is such a poorly translated word. So when people say we are mo longer under the law, they are really saying they are no longer under God's teachings and instructions. So think about that.

The Torah, Law of Moses, Moses seat are all used interchangeable and are the first 5 books of the bible. Interesting suggestion you made about Messianic Judaism will be the ushering in of the lawless one. I hope you don't believe this, and this is one of the most absurd things I have ever heard. We have already defined law as being Torah. Law (Torah) and lawlessness (Torahlessness)are at opposition with each other. So does it make sense a movement that is Torah observant will usher in the torahlessness one?

Is it any wonder with the re-establishment of Israel a rise of movements, not just Messianic Judaism, have begun to see the blessings of teaching and observing such? As God is calling his people back, so has he awoken movements back to his Torah. Back to the ancient paths, the path he has always called us to follow. Nobody is trying to Judaize anybody. That's another untruth. Maybe some small fringe groups, but we all have those amongst us.

Micah 4:1-2

1 In the last days
the mountain of the Lord’s temple will be established
as the highest of the mountains;
it will be exalted above the hills,
and peoples will stream to it.
2 Many nations will come and say,

“Come, let us go up to the mountain of the Lord,
to the temple of the God of Jacob.
He will teach us his ways,
so that we may walk in his paths.â€
The law will go out from Zion,
the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.

This is not a fad and it has been prophecied. Just as Israel has been restored, so is God's Word. It is indivisible and never, ever contradicts. The ideas from you and Mitspa has such glaring inconsistencies, but that's fine and its been the status quo, so why change? If you have an issue with Messianic Judaism, think about this. It was the religion, or faith that most closely resembles what Paul, the Apostles and our Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ taught and practiced. That is pretty good company to follow. I think I will follow their example, not yours and Mitspa's thank you very much.

 

[Mitspa]

Anyone who wants to understand the truth, can see very well that for the believer, heaven and earth have in fact passed away.

That is an interesting statement.

Well it was made in the context of a clear and evident scripture.
2 Cor 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creation, OLD THINGS HAVE PASSED AWAY, behold ALL THINGS have become new.

Also it was in response to the issue of the new Heaven and earth in that Christ fulfilled the law.

So in fact for the "believer" the old heaven and earth have passed away. It is clear for those who desire to know the truth.

 

[Ryan]

wow! I can see such things but it is really hard to understand how folks believe such things when the New Testament stands in complete conflict with this sort of teaching? I seen a great man of God, grap someones jewish prayer cloth and throw it on the ground, one day when this young man came to him for prayer. He told him the problem he had was that he did not trust in the Holy Spirit and looked to these worthless items as that which represents God. I can see more and more are moving into this religious nonsense.

This "great" man of God better rethink this. He may just have to grab a hold of one in the coming days.

Zechariah 8:23
This is what the Lord Almighty says: “In those days ten people from all languages and nations will take firm hold of one Jew by the hem (Tzitzit, or his prayer shawl) of his robe and say, ‘Let us go with you, because we have heard that God is with you.’”

What a disgusting display of behavior and you proudly proclaim it.

Matthew 5:19 Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

That "great" man may very well have to explain his actions come kingdom time.

 

[Sparkey]

You know me, Mistpa. I am willing to listen and that also includes willingness to be persuaded. Both you and I are told to prove all things and hold fast to the truth. Being quick to listen isn't a bad position and it is very defensible as you know.

 

[Sparkey]

This "great" man of God better rethink this. He may just have to grab a hold of one in the coming days.

Hopefully we may all learn this in this lifetime on this earth even in this day. There is one Jew that I love in particular and He is some great man of God indeed. There are many in His family that He loves today and that day and in the day to come. This is very clear.

Shalom, my friend.
Sparrow

 

[Ryan]

This "great" man of God better rethink this. He may just have to grab a hold of one in the coming days.

Hopefully we may all learn this in this lifetime on this earth even in this day. There is one Jew that I love in particular and He is some great man of God indeed. There are many in His family that He loves today and that day and in the day to come. This is very clear.

Shalom, my friend.
Sparrow

Amen and Shalom in Christ

 

[Mitspa]

wow! I can see such things but it is really hard to understand how folks believe such things when the New Testament stands in complete conflict with this sort of teaching? I seen a great man of God, grap someones jewish prayer cloth and throw it on the ground, one day when this young man came to him for prayer. He told him the problem he had was that he did not trust in the Holy Spirit and looked to these worthless items as that which represents God. I can see more and more are moving into this religious nonsense.

This "great" man of God better rethink this. He may just have to grab a hold of one in the coming days.

Zechariah 8:23
This is what the Lord Almighty says: “In those days ten people from all languages and nations will take firm hold of one Jew by the hem (Tzitzit, or his prayer shawl) of his robe and say, ‘Let us go with you, because we have heard that God is with you.’”

What a disgusting display of behavior and you proudly proclaim it.

Yes the prayer shaw is nothing! It has no value nor does any these thing profit but faith working by love.

 

[Mitspa]

You know me, Mistpa. I am willing to listen and that also includes willingness to be persuaded. Both you and I are told to prove all things and hold fast to the truth. Being quick to listen isn't a bad position and it is very defensible as you know.

Yes I agree hawk! Test everything? But I think if one is trying to understand the Lords words, they should consider the truth of this scripture. For to me it is most evident.

 

[Ryan]

wow! I can see such things but it is really hard to understand how folks believe such things when the New Testament stands in complete conflict with this sort of teaching? I seen a great man of God, grap someones jewish prayer cloth and throw it on the ground, one day when this young man came to him for prayer. He told him the problem he had was that he did not trust in the Holy Spirit and looked to these worthless items as that which represents God. I can see more and more are moving into this religious nonsense.

This "great" man of God better rethink this. He may just have to grab a hold of one in the coming days.

Zechariah 8:23
This is what the Lord Almighty says: “In those days ten people from all languages and nations will take firm hold of one Jew by the hem (Tzitzit, or his prayer shawl) of his robe and say, ‘Let us go with you, because we have heard that God is with you.’”

What a disgusting display of behavior and you proudly proclaim it.

Yes the prayer shaw is nothing! It has no value nor does any these thing profit but faith working by love.

Maybe this prophecy is for you?

 

[Ryan]

We uphold God's Laws when we are led by God's Spirit.

This of course is not the Law of Moses.

Not the law of Moses, eh? That's not what Paul says:

"28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.
31 Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law." (Romans 3:28, 31 NASB)

You've been victimized by the spiritless rationalizing of a church that couldn't reconcile Paul's 'justification apart from works' with James' 'justification by works'. To fix what they couldn't discern spiritually they decided that they were talking about two different laws. The Bible does not support this at all.

Of course James is speaking of works of faith. Its very simple.
In the SAME CHAPTER paul explains what it means to "ESTABLISH" the law for its purpose. Rom 3:19-23
Which he also covers in clear terms in Gal.
That the pupose of the law was to condemn the whole world.

Now those who "break" the law into pieces and bring its standard down to a carnal level are those who are lawless.

But we who who have no confidence in the flesh, are those who uphold the true standard of the law.

In continuing with the discussion of the temple that will be built and the man of sin that will pose as the Messiah -

1 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3

The strong delusion that God sends involves the a "man" of sin who is working signs and wonders and demanding to be worshiped as God, claiming he is Messiah.

This is a text book example of apostasy. People turning away from the faith to establish there own.

This is not a new concept -

1 "If there arises among you a prophet or a dreamer of dreams, and he gives you a sign or a wonder, 2 and the sign or the wonder comes to pass, of which he spoke to you, saying, 'Let us go after other gods'--which you have not known--'and let us serve them,' 3 you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams, for the Lord your God is testing you to know whether you love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul. 4 You shall walk after the Lord your God and fear Him, and keep His commandments and obey His voice, and you shall serve Him and hold fast to Him.
Deuteronomy 13:1-4


The Messianic Movement is preparing the minds of believers to receive the man of sin, the Lawless one as Messiah. Most of these folks believe Jesus will come before the tribulation.

One such ministry teaching "another" Gospel which is Jesus plus keeping the law of Moses is 119 ministries.

http://www.testeverything.net/what-is-the-gospel

They have 2 one hour videos that "explains" what the Gospel is.

Anyone that needs 2 one hour videos just to "explain" what the Gospel is...

They used to have an open Forum like this one. I actually got into a "conversation" with one of the "moderators" and asked him if he thought that Christians should sacrifice animals when the temple is built and his answer was yes.

He later came back after speaking with his boss and began to "explain" what he meant.

Since that time they do not have a open Forum, but have a lay out where you ask them a question through an approval process, and then you question and their answer are posted for all to see.

It seems their is a "Movement" to prepare people to "turn away from the faith", under the pretense of "obeying the law", which they say is the true Gospel.

They also teach the Gospel didn't start with Jesus but on Sinai with Moses.
They say that in the video.

Here is the scripture they use -

For indeed the gospel was preached to us as well as to them; but the word which they heard did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in those who heard it. Hebrews 4:2

JLB

Think about what you are saying. You are saying the torahlessness one will come out of the one following Torah? That is the most absurd, twisted line of thought in this thread. The reason why people's love has grown cold is because they aren't being taught Torah anymore.

Matthew 24:11-13
11 Many false prophets will arise and will mislead many. 12 Because lawlessness (torahlessness) is increased, most people’s love will grow cold. 13 But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.

If being lawless grows a heart cold, the law will make their love warm. You are telling people to not follow the law, yet the warning is so clear as day in the scriptures. This is a warning from the very Word of Jesus. Please, please heed it.

 

[Drew]

I would like to return to Ephesians 2, and its clear statement about some "law" being abolished:

Therefore remember that formerly you, the Gentiles in the flesh, who are called “Uncircumcision†by the so-called “Circumcision,†which is performed in the flesh by human hands— 12 remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, [i]excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off [j]have been brought near [k]by the blood of Christ. 14 For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the [l]barrier of the dividing wall, 15 [m]by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances, so that in Himself He might [n]make the two into one new man, thus establishing peace, 16 and might reconcile them both in one body to God through the cross, [o]by it having put to death the enmity. 17 And He came and preached peace to you who were far away, and peace to those who were near; 18 for through Him we both have our access in one Spirit to the Father. 19 So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the [p]saints, and are of God’s household,

How is this law not the Law of Moses given context? That context is crystal clear: the effect of the abolition of this unnamed law is that Jew and Gentile are united. It is also an undeniable Biblical fact (I can provide the texts if necessary) that God gave the Law of Moses to the Jews to, yes, set them apart from other nations.

So how does someone deny that the law here is the Law of Moses, given the obvious fact that abolition of the Law of Moses would "tear down a barrier" dividing Jew from Gentile, just as stated?

They have to claim that this "law" is some set of man-made traditions, since their position cannot survive any other reading. Well, if you do not go beyond a 10 second reflection, that might seem plausible; clearly the Jews have indeed added man-made traditions to the Law of Moses - perhaps these have somehow functioned as a barrier.

Well here is the problem with this: Even if such man-made traditions were indeed abolished, the Law of Moses would remain as just as much, if not more, of a barrier! The person who denies that the "law" being abolished here is not the Law of Moses needs to sweep that problem under the rug.

No competent writer familiar with Jewish culture would write the bit from Ephesians 2 that I have quoted and intend "law" to denote simply man-made tradtions. Why not? Because, as stated, that writer would surely know that, for about 2000 years (?), the Jews saw, yes, the Law of Moses, as functioning to set them apart from Gentiles.

Where did they get this idea? Did they make it up? Certainly not! In many places, God Himself tells the people that this is at least part of the reason for giving the Law of Moses.

So no clear-thinking writer would try to make any case that the Jew and Gentile are now members of one unified family without having to deal with the obvious fact that the Law of Moses functioned, as per God's own declaration, to separate these two groups.

What options are available to bring these two groups together? They are:

1. Extend the scope of application of the Law of Moses to include Gentiles;
2. Abolish the law.

So what does the writer actually say? That the law has been abolished.

Any argument that the "law" being abolished is not the Law of Moses has to quietly (and conveniently) ignore the fact that if the Law of Moses remains, a huge barrier between Jew and Gentile still remains, even if some man-made traditions also served to separate Jew from Gentile.

 

[Mitspa]

wow! I can see such things but it is really hard to understand how folks believe such things when the New Testament stands in complete conflict with this sort of teaching? I seen a great man of God, grap someones jewish prayer cloth and throw it on the ground, one day when this young man came to him for prayer. He told him the problem he had was that he did not trust in the Holy Spirit and looked to these worthless items as that which represents God. I can see more and more are moving into this religious nonsense.

This "great" man of God better rethink this. He may just have to grab a hold of one in the coming days.

Zechariah 8:23
This is what the Lord Almighty says: “In those days ten people from all languages and nations will take firm hold of one Jew by the hem (Tzitzit, or his prayer shawl) of his robe and say, ‘Let us go with you, because we have heard that God is with you.’”

What a disgusting display of behavior and you proudly proclaim it.

Yes the prayer shaw is nothing! It has no value nor does any these thing profit but faith working by love.

Maybe this prophecy is for you?

No Christ fulfilled this scripture, and He alone is that which every man should seek.

In fact I am more jewish than those who are jew by birth.
Rom 2:28-29

I need no piece of cloth nor other nonsense to hold on too, I have the Holy Spirit and Christ in me.

 

[Mitspa]

I would like to return to Ephesians 2, and its clear statement about some "law" being abolished:

Therefore remember that formerly you, the Gentiles in the flesh, who are called “Uncircumcision” by the so-called “Circumcision,” which is performed in the flesh by human hands— 12 remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, [i]excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off [j]have been brought near [k]by the blood of Christ. 14 For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the [l]barrier of the dividing wall, 15 [m]by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances, so that in Himself He might [n]make the two into one new man, thus establishing peace, 16 and might reconcile them both in one body to God through the cross, [o]by it having put to death the enmity. 17 And He came and preached peace to you who were far away, and peace to those who were near; 18 for through Him we both have our access in one Spirit to the Father. 19 So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the [p]saints, and are of God’s household,

How is this law not the Law of Moses given context? That context is crystal clear: the effect of the abolition of this unnamed law is that Jew and Gentile are united. It is also an undeniable Biblical fact (I can provide the texts if necessary) that God gave the Law of Moses to the Jews to, yes, set them apart from other nations.

So how does someone deny that the law here is the Law of Moses, given the obvious fact that abolition of the Law of Moses would "tear down a barrier" dividing Jew from Gentile, just as stated?

They have to claim that this "law" is some set of man-made traditions, since their position cannot survive any other reading. Well, if you do not go beyond a 10 second reflection, that might seem plausible; clearly the Jews have indeed added man-made traditions to the Law of Moses - perhaps these have somehow functioned as a barrier.

Well here is the problem with this: Even if such man-made traditions were indeed abolished, the Law of Moses would remain as just as much, if not more, of a barrier! The person who denies that the "law" being abolished here is not the Law of Moses needs to sweep that problem under the rug.

No competent writer familiar with Jewish culture would write the bit from Ephesians 2 that I have quoted and intend "law" to denote simply man-made tradtions. Why not? Because, as stated, that writer would surely know that, for about 2000 years (?), the Jews saw, yes, the Law of Moses, as functioning to set them apart from Gentiles.

Where did they get this idea? Did they make it up? Certainly not! In many places, God Himself tells the people that this is at least part of the reason for giving the Law of Moses.

So no clear-thinking writer would try to make any case that the Jew and Gentile are now members of one unified family without having to deal with the obvious fact that the Law of Moses functioned, as per God's own declaration, to separate these two groups.

What options are available to bring these two groups together? They are:

1. Extend the scope of application of the Law of Moses to include Gentiles;
2. Abolish the law.

So what does the writer actually say? That the law has been abolished.

Any argument that the "law" being abolished is not the Law of Moses has to quietly (and conveniently) ignore the fact that if the Law of Moses remains, a huge barrier between Jew and Gentile still remains, even if some man-made traditions also served to separate Jew from Gentile.

What you have written is EVIDENT. but so are many more clear readings of the scriptures. This is not issue of mans ability to comprehend, it is the issue of how the god of this world has spiritual power to blind men from the truth. 2 Cor 4:4

Fear and the rod of correction are the only hope for some.
Honest discussion is able to save many, but the fear of God is the answer to some of these people who ignore the truth.

 

[Ryan]

Yes the prayer shaw is nothing! It has no value nor does any these thing profit but faith working by love.

Maybe this prophecy is for you?

No Christ fulfilled this scripture, and He alone is that which every man should seek.

In fact I am more jewish than those who are jew by birth.
Rom 2:28-29

I need no piece of cloth nor other nonsense to hold on too, I have the Holy Spirit and Christ in me.

Let scripture, the very Word of God do the talking.

Hebrews 10 26 For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a terrifying expectation of judgment and the fury of a fire which will consume the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay.” And again, “The Lord will judge His people.” 31 It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Plain as day.

 

[Mitspa]

Of course James is speaking of works of faith. Its very simple.
In the SAME CHAPTER paul explains what it means to "ESTABLISH" the law for its purpose. Rom 3:19-23
Which he also covers in clear terms in Gal.
That the pupose of the law was to condemn the whole world.

Now those who "break" the law into pieces and bring its standard down to a carnal level are those who are lawless.

But we who who have no confidence in the flesh, are those who uphold the true standard of the law.

In continuing with the discussion of the temple that will be built and the man of sin that will pose as the Messiah -

1 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3

The strong delusion that God sends involves the a "man" of sin who is working signs and wonders and demanding to be worshiped as God, claiming he is Messiah.

This is a text book example of apostasy. People turning away from the faith to establish there own.

This is not a new concept -

1 "If there arises among you a prophet or a dreamer of dreams, and he gives you a sign or a wonder, 2 and the sign or the wonder comes to pass, of which he spoke to you, saying, 'Let us go after other gods'--which you have not known--'and let us serve them,' 3 you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams, for the Lord your God is testing you to know whether you love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul. 4 You shall walk after the Lord your God and fear Him, and keep His commandments and obey His voice, and you shall serve Him and hold fast to Him.
Deuteronomy 13:1-4


The Messianic Movement is preparing the minds of believers to receive the man of sin, the Lawless one as Messiah. Most of these folks believe Jesus will come before the tribulation.

One such ministry teaching "another" Gospel which is Jesus plus keeping the law of Moses is 119 ministries.

http://www.testeverything.net/what-is-the-gospel

They have 2 one hour videos that "explains" what the Gospel is.

Anyone that needs 2 one hour videos just to "explain" what the Gospel is...

They used to have an open Forum like this one. I actually got into a "conversation" with one of the "moderators" and asked him if he thought that Christians should sacrifice animals when the temple is built and his answer was yes.

He later came back after speaking with his boss and began to "explain" what he meant.

Since that time they do not have a open Forum, but have a lay out where you ask them a question through an approval process, and then you question and their answer are posted for all to see.

It seems their is a "Movement" to prepare people to "turn away from the faith", under the pretense of "obeying the law", which they say is the true Gospel.

They also teach the Gospel didn't start with Jesus but on Sinai with Moses.
They say that in the video.

Here is the scripture they use -

For indeed the gospel was preached to us as well as to them; but the word which they heard did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in those who heard it. Hebrews 4:2

JLB

Think about what you are saying. You are saying the torahlessness one will come out of the one following Torah? That is the most absurd, twisted line of thought in this thread. The reason why people's love has grown cold is because they aren't being taught Torah anymore.

Matthew 24:11-13
11 Many false prophets will arise and will mislead many. 12 Because lawlessness (torahlessness) is increased, most people’s love will grow cold. 13 But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.

If being lawless grows a heart cold, the law will make their love warm. You are telling people to not follow the law, yet the warning is so clear as day in the scriptures. This is a warning from the very Word of Jesus. Please, please heed it.

Who is "lawless" but those who claim to keep a law, but are breakers of that law?

who is righteous but those who through the Spirit, love another and have fulfilled the law?

 

[Ryan]

I would like to return to Ephesians 2, and its clear statement about some "law" being abolished:

Therefore remember that formerly you, the Gentiles in the flesh, who are called “Uncircumcision” by the so-called “Circumcision,” which is performed in the flesh by human hands— 12 remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, [i]excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off [j]have been brought near [k]by the blood of Christ. 14 For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the [l]barrier of the dividing wall, 15 [m]by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances, so that in Himself He might [n]make the two into one new man, thus establishing peace, 16 and might reconcile them both in one body to God through the cross, [o]by it having put to death the enmity. 17 And He came and preached peace to you who were far away, and peace to those who were near; 18 for through Him we both have our access in one Spirit to the Father. 19 So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the [p]saints, and are of God’s household,

How is this law not the Law of Moses given context? That context is crystal clear: the effect of the abolition of this unnamed law is that Jew and Gentile are united. It is also an undeniable Biblical fact (I can provide the texts if necessary) that God gave the Law of Moses to the Jews to, yes, set them apart from other nations.

So how does someone deny that the law here is the Law of Moses, given the obvious fact that abolition of the Law of Moses would "tear down a barrier" dividing Jew from Gentile, just as stated?

They have to claim that this "law" is some set of man-made traditions, since their position cannot survive any other reading. Well, if you do not go beyond a 10 second reflection, that might seem plausible; clearly the Jews have indeed added man-made traditions to the Law of Moses - perhaps these have somehow functioned as a barrier.

Well here is the problem with this: Even if such man-made traditions were indeed abolished, the Law of Moses would remain as just as much, if not more, of a barrier! The person who denies that the "law" being abolished here is not the Law of Moses needs to sweep that problem under the rug.

No competent writer familiar with Jewish culture would write the bit from Ephesians 2 that I have quoted and intend "law" to denote simply man-made tradtions. Why not? Because, as stated, that writer would surely know that, for about 2000 years (?), the Jews saw, yes, the Law of Moses, as functioning to set them apart from Gentiles.

Where did they get this idea? Did they make it up? Certainly not! In many places, God Himself tells the people that this is at least part of the reason for giving the Law of Moses.

So no clear-thinking writer would try to make any case that the Jew and Gentile are now members of one unified family without having to deal with the obvious fact that the Law of Moses functioned, as per God's own declaration, to separate these two groups.

What options are available to bring these two groups together? They are:

1. Extend the scope of application of the Law of Moses to include Gentiles;
2. Abolish the law.

So what does the writer actually say? That the law has been abolished.

Any argument that the "law" being abolished is not the Law of Moses has to quietly (and conveniently) ignore the fact that if the Law of Moses remains, a huge barrier between Jew and Gentile still remains, even if some man-made traditions also served to separate Jew from Gentile.

I don't think you read my post earlier explains this passage. I can do that, but you also overlooked many examples being grafted in during the OT times. Israel was to be a light to the nations. They failed, often. And I provided ample scripture aliens or foreigners were part of the Sinai Covenant. It is not a mutually exclusive covenant to the Jews, it is for all believers in Christ.

If that's the premise you take then, who is the New Covenant with? Israel or Gentile? Because it doesn't say Gentile in the covenant, are you excluded now?

 

[Mitspa]

Yes the prayer shaw is nothing! It has no value nor does any these thing profit but faith working by love.

Maybe this prophecy is for you?

No Christ fulfilled this scripture, and He alone is that which every man should seek.

In fact I am more jewish than those who are jew by birth.
Rom 2:28-29

I need no piece of cloth nor other nonsense to hold on too, I have the Holy Spirit and Christ in me.

Let scripture, the very Word of God do the talking.

Hebrews 10 26 For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a terrifying expectation of judgment and the fury of a fire which will consume the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay.” And again, “The Lord will judge His people.” 31 It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Plain as day.

Yes plain as day! the whole book of Hebrews is a warning to those who are turning from faith back to law. The "sin" mentioned throughout this book is the sin of UNBELIEF!

For the law is not of faith. and the strength of sin is the law!

So the "willful sin" is to reject grace, and count the Blood of Christ as common as the blood of animals.

Yes you should be very afraid!