When did the Law pass or has it passed away?

[John 8:32]

Look at the beginning of the verse and the writer is making a clear distinction between the customized and the uncustomized group. The Jew and Gentile. Pentecost and Peter's vision is so prevalent here, and both speak to the thought of the day. Judaism was teaching, and of which Peter was guilty of at one point, Gentiles were unclean and had to convert to being a Jew to merit salvation. That is the very fabric and substance of many of the Epistles and the issues being addressed for each region.

This may be so, but it does not address my argument. Unless you are saying - and no person familiar with the Old Testament should say this - that the Law of Moses as specified by God did not split humanity into two groups. It certainly did! And its not a man-made distinction, its a God-decreed distinction:

You are therefore to make a distinction between the clean animal and the unclean, and between the unclean bird and the clean; and you shall not make [o]yourselves detestable by animal or by bird or by anything [p]that creeps on the ground, which I have separated for you as unclean. 26 Thus you are to be holy to Me, for I the Lord am holy; and I have set you apart from the peoples to be Mine

I suspect, repeat suspect, that you are trying to argue that the "genuine" Law of Moses did not function to split humanity into two groups. I am quite confident that position simply cannot work. From the rest of your post, it does appear that this is what you are trying to say. I am confident there are many texts that show that this simply cannot work - God clearly intends the Law of Moses to, among other things perhaps, distinguish the Jew from the Gentile. And this is precisely why the abolition of the Law of Moses is precisely what would unite Jew and Gentile.

Yes, it might seem to us that God should never set aside the Jew from the Gentile and give a special law and special promises. But what seems "right" to us is not the prime consideration - the prime consideration is what the Bible says.

The problem is this law was around about 1500 years before the quote you used...

Gen 7:2 Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens, the male and his female: and of beasts that are not clean by two, the male and his female.

The law of clean and unclean was well known at the time of the flood. There is not one word about what makes something clean or unclean, Noah already KNEW that. Now either it was clean or unclean and for that to be the case, it had to be a law. If there was no law to define it, there was no clean and unclean. As such, it did split people, but not between Jew and non-Jew, the first Jew was pretty close 1500 years in the future. It split people along the lines of those that did what God said to do and those who didn't.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

This conversation is about Judaism, and it relationship to the Law of Moses.

There are parts of Judaism that are labeled under the Law of Moses falsely, and I am trying to separate it from the Law so that we are speaking about the same thing.


JLB

I guess I lost track of what this means in regard to whether or not the law of Moses has passed away. Until my memory is refreshed or the point is clarified I don't see any connection at this point. So for now I'll just stick to what we were talking about.

 

[Drew]

The problem is this law was around about 1500 years before the quote you used... Gen 7:2 Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens, the male and his female: and of beasts that are not clean by two, the male and his female. The law of clean and unclean was well known at the time of the flood.

What is relevant to the matter at issue is whether the Law of Moses, as given by God, functions to set the Jew apart from the Gentile. And it clearly does, as per the text from Leviticus that I cited.

There is not one word about what makes something clean or unclean, Noah already KNEW that. Now either it was clean or unclean and for that to be the case, it had to be a law. If there was no law to define it, there was no clean and unclean. As such, it did split people, but not between Jew and non-Jew, the first Jew was pretty close 1500 years in the future. It split people along the lines of those that did what God said to do and those who didn't.

I do not see how there can be any misunderstanding about the Leviticus text. It reads as it reads:

You are therefore to make a distinction between the clean animal and the unclean, and between the unclean bird and the clean; and you shall not make [o]yourselves detestable by animal or by bird or by anything [p]that creeps on the ground, which I have separated for you as unclean. 26 Thus you are to be holy to Me, for I the Lord am holy; and I have set you apart from the peoples to be Mine

The words are right there - whatever else might be the case, the words of God are here saying that the Jews have been set apart from the other nations. And this is not something man has "added" to the Law of Moses, it is something that God Himself has embedded in the Law of Moses.

In any event, as I plan to demonstrate later, there are other texts that show that God "wants" the Law of Moses to function as a boundary marker between Jew and Gentile.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Okay, do you see the flaw in what you're saying? Let me show you: Do we then make void the law [the law of works]through faith? Certainly not! Doesn't it make much more sense to insert 'the requirements of the law' in your '[ ]'s? What you are making Paul say is, "'faith makes the law of works void, then? No!" I seriously doubt you want to go on record as insisting Paul is saying that. What fits better with Paul's 'No' is, "do we make void [the requirements of] the law through faith? Certainly not!" Which leads to what faith does do in regard to [the requirements of] the law--"On the contrary, we establish the [requirements of the] law (through faith in Christ)." Makes tons more sense than inserting 'the law of works' in his statement.

I am not inserting the Law of Moses into this text. You are.

I am saying Paul is making a legal argument using these two laws:

The Law of works.

The law of faith.

The Law of Moses is not in the legal argument at all.

It is a comparison of the law of works and the law of faith.

If I were to compare the law of gravity and the law of aerodynamics, so that I could make a point about the law of Moses, the Law of Moses is not in the conversation.

So it is in Romans 3:27 -

27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith.

The law of faith was in operation long before the Law of Moses.

The law of works is seen in the tower of Babel.


JLB

There's no reason to strain to make the law that gets upheld in Romans 3:31 the law of faith and not the (moral) requirements of the law of Moses. We know from other passages that faith expresses itself in the love that fulfills the Law:

"The only thing that counts (towards justification--see context) is faith expressing itself through love." (Galatians 5:6 NASB)

"...whoever loves others has fulfilled the law. 9 The commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not covet,” and whatever other command there may be, are summed up in this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.” 10 Love does no harm to a neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law." (Romans 13: NASB)

Hardly a 'law of faith' being spoken about here, but PLAINLY the Law of Moses gets upheld by faith in Christ expressing itself through love for others.

There are other passages that show that saving faith in Christ upholds the Law of Moses. James goes so far as to say if your faith can't uphold, for example, the law regarding favoritism and helping poor folk, you may well have a faith that can not save.

 

[Drew]

the following text from Romans 3 shows that Paul believe that the Law of Moses was for Jews and Jews only (and hence separated Jew from Gentile):

Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith. 28 [r]For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works [s]of the Law. 29 Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also,

Paul's argument is clear: if justification were by the works of the Law of Moses, then only Jews could possibly benefit.

Why? Obviously because the Law of Moses was only given to the Jews.

And this is why it makes sense for the author of Ephesians to assert that the abolition of the Law of Moses takes down a barrier between Jew and Gentile.

I am very surprised that some appear to be arguing the Law of Moses, as given by God, did not serve to split humanity into two camps. The Leviticus 20 text, alone, is so clear about this - we have God's own words asserting that the dietary food laws function to set the Jew apart from the Gentile.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I would like to hear from Ryan on my comment I stated that says -

I wonder if he feels them same as you do.


I never said The Law of Moses was done away with based on this.

I will point this thread to what Paul said about the Law of Moses coming to an end, which what I have said from the beginning.

8 Previously saying, "Sacrifice and offering, burnt offerings, and offerings for sin You did not desire, nor had pleasure in them" (which are offered according to the law), 9 then He said, "Behold, I have come to do Your will, O God." He takes away the first that He may establish the second. 10 By that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. 11 And every priest stands ministering daily and offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. Hebrews 10:8-11

Key phrase - He takes away the first that He may establish the second.



13 In that He says, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away. Hebrews 8:13


Key phrase - is ready to vanish away.


And this I say, that the law, which was four hundred and thirty years later, cannot annul the covenant that was confirmed before by God in Christ, that it should make the promise of no effect. What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator.


Key Phrase - till the Seed should come



For the priesthood being changed, of necessity there is also a change of the law. 13 For He of whom these things are spoken belongs to another tribe, from which no man has officiated at the altar. 14 For it is evident that our Lord arose from Judah, of which tribe Moses spoke nothing concerning priesthood. Hebrews 7:12-14


Key Phrase - of necessity there is also a change of the law.



There are many many more, but these are the main one I quoted to validate my position that the Law of Moses was temporary and was replaced by the new covenant, with a new priesthood and new law.

What 'passed away' was the REQUIREMENT of temple, priest, and sacrifice. Christ made those REQUIREMENTS unneeded for the purpose they were given--for purposes of maintaining covenant with God. But somewhere the church decided it was categorically anathema to practice any law regarding temple, priesthood, and sacrifice, because it automatically (ahem) meant you were trying to be justified by that work, unable to see the simple truth that Paul practiced the law after the resurrection, and that maybe, just maybe, it's possible to worship Christ in that way without it automatically meaning you're trying to be justified by that work. Just do a simple doc search of the early church and you'll see what I say is the truth. I have zero respect for the early church leaders who forced this stupid thinking onto the church.

I believe we are to walk with God and obey His Laws and Commands, of which He desired from the beginning.

...Just not those in the Law of Moses? Or some of them? What? Explain.

I honestly believe if you let the defensiveness of the law/grace indoctrination down you'll see that what passed away was the WAY of the Law, not the REQUIREMENTS of the Law. We serve in a NEW WAY that upholds the requirements of the Law of Moses, not destroys them. Sacrifice for sin is the BIGGEST most easily understood example of this. Our faith in Christ's blood did not destroy the Law of Moses regarding sacrifice for sin. It FULFILLED it. So well, that there is no further literal REQUIREMENT to do what the law commanded.

Faith is how ALL of the law of Moses if fulfilled, not destroyed. Some things still require literal fulfillment through that faith. Some things do not require literal fulfillment through that faith. You don't make the literal requirements 'go away' just because some things (temple, priest, sacrifice) no longer require literal fulfillment.

 

[francisdesales]

We do not believe one has to convert to being a Jew. Jew and Gentile one in Messiah, one in the Olive Tree. We do believe God in his infinite wisdom and love, gave us the Torah as the path to walk AFTER receiving salvation. So this includes the commandments that can be observed today. A cultural marker you said, just adds a wall of division that these are solely for the Jews. These are God's commandments, not the Jews. It's the path God called us out from our own spiritual Egypt to walk in. That in a nutshell is what we believe.

Thanks for clarifying.

It seems you are saying that the Mosaic Law is still legally binding on Jews - that since it is from God, that is why you follow it. I understand you do not follow it out of earning righteousness - but I presume you no longer stone adulterers, etc.? If these are from God and the Law is still in effect (which I believe Messianics teach), then at what point did such rules go away?

Thanks for your explanation.

Regards

 

[JLB]

Okay, do you see the flaw in what you're saying? Let me show you: Do we then make void the law [the law of works]through faith? Certainly not! Doesn't it make much more sense to insert 'the requirements of the law' in your '[ ]'s? What you are making Paul say is, "'faith makes the law of works void, then? No!" I seriously doubt you want to go on record as insisting Paul is saying that. What fits better with Paul's 'No' is, "do we make void [the requirements of] the law through faith? Certainly not!" Which leads to what faith does do in regard to [the requirements of] the law--"On the contrary, we establish the [requirements of the] law (through faith in Christ)." Makes tons more sense than inserting 'the law of works' in his statement.

I am not inserting the Law of Moses into this text. You are.

I am saying Paul is making a legal argument using these two laws:

The Law of works.

The law of faith.

The Law of Moses is not in the legal argument at all.

It is a comparison of the law of works and the law of faith.

If I were to compare the law of gravity and the law of aerodynamics, so that I could make a point about the law of Moses, the Law of Moses is not in the conversation.

So it is in Romans 3:27 -

27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith.

The law of faith was in operation long before the Law of Moses.

The law of works is seen in the tower of Babel.


JLB

There's no reason to strain to make the law that gets upheld in Romans 3:31 the law of faith and not the (moral) requirements of the law of Moses. We know from other passages that faith expresses itself in the love that fulfills the Law:

"The only thing that counts (towards justification--see context) is faith expressing itself through love." (Galatians 5:6 NASB)

"...whoever loves others has fulfilled the law. 9 The commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,†“You shall not murder,†“You shall not steal,†“You shall not covet,†and whatever other command there may be, are summed up in this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.†10 Love does no harm to a neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law." (Romans 13: NASB)

Hardly a 'law of faith' being spoken about here, but PLAINLY the Law of Moses gets upheld by faith in Christ expressing itself through love for others.

There are other passages that show that saving faith in Christ upholds the Law of Moses. James goes so far as to say if your faith can't uphold, for example, the law regarding favoritism and helping poor folk, you may well have a faith that can not save.

No straining to it. It's a simple third grade grammar lesson.

It is a matter of understanding the context, a comparison of the law of works and the law of faith. Two choices. The law of Moses is not in the choices.

Unless you would consider that Paul is referring to the law of Moses when he mentions the law of works?

If that is the case then it is case closed. You just proved that The law of Moses is no longer around, because that would make the Law of Moses the Law of works, by which your salvation is determined by the works of your hands.

When the law is mentioned after verse 27 it is either the law of works or the law of faith, not the Law of Moses.


JLB

 

[John 8:32]

Okay, do you see the flaw in what you're saying? Let me show you: Do we then make void the law [the law of works]through faith? Certainly not! Doesn't it make much more sense to insert 'the requirements of the law' in your '[ ]'s? What you are making Paul say is, "'faith makes the law of works void, then? No!" I seriously doubt you want to go on record as insisting Paul is saying that. What fits better with Paul's 'No' is, "do we make void [the requirements of] the law through faith? Certainly not!" Which leads to what faith does do in regard to [the requirements of] the law--"On the contrary, we establish the [requirements of the] law (through faith in Christ)." Makes tons more sense than inserting 'the law of works' in his statement.

I am not inserting the Law of Moses into this text. You are.

I am saying Paul is making a legal argument using these two laws:

The Law of works.

The law of faith.

The Law of Moses is not in the legal argument at all.

It is a comparison of the law of works and the law of faith.

If I were to compare the law of gravity and the law of aerodynamics, so that I could make a point about the law of Moses, the Law of Moses is not in the conversation.

So it is in Romans 3:27 -

27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith.

The law of faith was in operation long before the Law of Moses.

The law of works is seen in the tower of Babel.


JLB

There's no reason to strain to make the law that gets upheld in Romans 3:31 the law of faith and not the (moral) requirements of the law of Moses. We know from other passages that faith expresses itself in the love that fulfills the Law:

"The only thing that counts (towards justification--see context) is faith expressing itself through love." (Galatians 5:6 NASB)

"...whoever loves others has fulfilled the law. 9 The commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not covet,” and whatever other command there may be, are summed up in this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.” 10 Love does no harm to a neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law." (Romans 13: NASB)

Hardly a 'law of faith' being spoken about here, but PLAINLY the Law of Moses gets upheld by faith in Christ expressing itself through love for others.

There are other passages that show that saving faith in Christ upholds the Law of Moses. James goes so far as to say if your faith can't uphold, for example, the law regarding favoritism and helping poor folk, you may well have a faith that can not save.

Nicely put!

 

[JLB]

...Just not those in the Law of Moses? Or some of them? What? Explain. I honestly believe if you let the defensiveness of the law/grace indoctrination down you'll see that what passed away was the WAY of the Law, not the REQUIREMENTS of the Law. We serve in a NEW WAY that upholds the requirements of the Law of Moses, not destroys them. Sacrifice for sin is the BIGGEST most easily understood example of this. Our faith in Christ's blood did not destroy the Law of Moses regarding sacrifice for sin. It FULFILLED it. So well, that there is no further literal REQUIREMENT to do what the law commanded. Faith is how ALL of the law of Moses if fulfilled, not destroyed. Some things still require literal fulfillment through that faith. Some things do not require literal fulfillment through that faith. You don't make the literal requirements 'go away' just because some things (temple, priest, sacrifice) no longer require literal fulfillment.

You have missed my motive and my point, because you are trying to defend a temporary Law that was added to something greater.

The "first Law" sets the precedence for the rest.

The Messianic's base there whole logic on Jesus kept the Torah.

The foundation of the Torah is that we learn from God directly, not from an outside source.

He is the tree of Life. He alone is Eternal Life.

Eternal life is to know God and Jesus Christ whom He sent.

The Torah teaches us that man can not know good from evil by "learning" from any other source except God Himself.

But the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you, and you do not need that anyone teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you will abide in Him. 1 John 2:27

The Law of Moses dictated that you learn "good from evil" from other men.

The New Covenant states CLEARLY that -

31 "Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah-- 32 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the Lord. 33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 34 No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,' for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more." Jeremiah 31:31-34


No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,' for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the Lord.

Compare that to John -

But the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you, and you do not need that anyone teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you will abide in Him.

The New Covenant is nothing like the Law of Moses.

Why would anyone want to revert back to the Law of Moses?

Righteousness is not of the Law.

Justification is not of The law.

The Spirit of God does come by the works of the Law.

Casting out devils does not happen by The law.

Laying hands on the sick and they will recover was not by the law.

God has given us a New Covenant whereby we can learn from Him and have His Spirit dwell in us, to lead us and guide us into all truth.

What is the purpose of going back to trying to keep the law of Moses?

Here is the way Jesus kept Torah, which is founded in the First Law.

18 Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God. 19 Then Jesus answered and said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, but what He sees the Father do; for whatever He does, the Son also does in like manner. I can of Myself do nothing. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is righteous, because I do not seek My own will but the will of the Father who sent Me.

This boils down to -

I only say what I hear The Father say.

I only do what I see The Father do.

As many as are led by The Torah? No it doesn't say that.

As many as are led by The spirit of God, these are the sons of God!

That is why He could say to some - Your father is the devil.

Not because he read that in Moses Law, but because His source of Knowledge of good and evil was from God, not the Law of Moses.


JLB

 

[JLB]

Messianic Judaism teaches that Jesus is not YHWH God, but rather a man.

Therefore Messianic Judaism as well as Judaism are not the Law of Moses but rather a mixture of mans teachings that are not inspired by The Spirit.

The Prophets reveal the Messiah as YHWH, the Lord God.

"And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn. Zechariah 12:10

The Law reveals Him as YHWH -

17 For the LORD your God is God of gods, and Lord of lords, a great God, a mighty, and a terrible , which regardeth not persons, nor taketh reward: Deuteronomy 10:17

and again -

1 Now Moses kept the flock of Jethro his father in law , the priest of Midian: and he led the flock to the backside of the desert, and came to the mountain of God, even to Horeb. 2 And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked , and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed . 3 And Moses said , I will now turn aside , and see this great sight, why the bush is not burnt . 4 And when the LORD saw that he turned aside to see , God called unto him out of the midst of the bush, and said , Moses, Moses. And he said , Here am I. Exodus 3:1-4

How could Judaism or Messianic Judaism deny That Jesus Christ is YHWH, The Lord.

And the scripture can not be broken.


JLB

 

[About the Son of God]

I do not see how there can be any misunderstanding about the Leviticus text. It reads as it reads: You are therefore to make a distinction between the clean animal and the unclean, and between the unclean bird and the clean; and you shall not make [o]yourselves detestable by animal or by bird or by anything [p]that creeps on the ground, which I have separated for you as unclean. 26 Thus you are to be holy to Me, for I the Lord am holy; and I have set you apart from the peoples to be Mine The words are right there - whatever else might be the case, the words of God are here saying that the Jews have been set apart from the other nations. And this is not something man has "added" to the Law of Moses, it is something that God Himself has embedded in the Law of Moses. In any event, as I plan to demonstrate later, there are other texts that show that God "wants" the Law of Moses to function as a boundary marker between Jew and Gentile.

Drew, what do you make of this?
1Pete 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

I think I understand what you are trying to say; perhaps not; but I think it's important to point out there is still to be a boundary between those who are in darkness ( cf John 1:7, Isaiah 9:2, Matthew 5:16 ) and those who have Converted to Jesus THE Christ.

The last passage I cited is the one that precedes the O.P.'s topic; and I think it good to unpack that part of scripture a bit.
This is something of a subject change, but it's also very important to the O.P; and I'd like your thoughts on it WRT Gentile and Jews.

Consider something; Matthew 5:17 is the start of an "inclusio", which is a technique used at the time of Jesus to do what today we would call a "quote" or perhaps a "chapter study"; Modern Quotation marks and chapter names were added to scripture later; verse numbers were by a monk in I think the middle ages (any history buffs know?) but these helps weren't available at the time of Jesus; so he used a technique called an "inclusio" which serves a very similar purpose; (and which the monk seems to have been ignorant of.)

An inclusio is a writing about a *single* topic arranged as a series of vignettes.
An inclusio begins with a slogan like phrase -- and it ends when the same idea is repeated. eg: analogy -- an open quote mark, a close quote mark.

Matthew 5:17 begins with the words "the law or the prophets" and ends with the same reference in Matthew 7:12.
Therefore, all statements between these two "markers" are to be seen as a "single" event, or topic of study about the Law and the Prophets.

Previously, Jesus was talking about Pharisees killing the prophets; the king killing the prophets (John), and the Gentiles seeing this prophet: eg: Galilee of the Gentiles;
Matthew 4:16 The people which sat in darkness saw great light; and to them which sat in the region and shadow of death light is sprung up.

So, when Jesus talks about the law and the prophets with Pharisees and Scribes involved -- it's no surprise that Jesus' first commandment is about murder.

Inside the inclusio, there are a list of commands which come directly from Jesus ; and are, I think, in some way to be distinct from the "law".

Something to note is that every inclusio has a "climax", and usually it is the center-most teaching of the list; In this particular list of commands, the centermost teaching is Matthew 6:9-15. It is the immediate anti-thesis, of Matthew 6:4-8;

I pick this one because it is the zenith, peak, centroid, climax of all his commands; This teaching is something uniquely Christian -- it is the "Our Father" prayer. We are, as Christians, legally adopted "Sons of God."

And Jesus taught us to pray it as a prayer showing Christians to be "distinct" from the "Gentiles" who pray with "vain repetition" ( Matthew 6:7 ) and also for his "disciples" who are not Pharisee hypocrites; Yet the our Father is clearly to be repeated by every disciple of Jesus; Therefore repetition in prayer is not what makes prayer vain (Cf: Luke 18:1-8 Emphasis on verse 7 -- who cry out night and day -- ).

So, Jesus does make us Christians stand "apart" from Gentiles, and even some Jews.

Now, I'm not going to speak about all the commands inside the inclusio -- but I am going to list them as I see them; The our father is roughly the seventh in the line, and in the group -- and the very first statement in the prayer after "your will be done" is "give us this day our daily bread"; which is also the sign of the new covenant OATH (An aside: 7, sheba, means Oath in Hebrew thinking) making us legally "sons of God." via "The bread that I will give is my flesh for the life of the world." , which requires flesh and life / spirit )

The rest of the commands, then, I humbly submit must apply to Christians to differentiate them from the shallowness of the old law ( The pharisees and scribes controlled it: Matthew 5:20, Matthew 23:1-3 ) ; Since the former quote is inside the inclusio, it is also the topic of discussion "exceeding the scribes and the Pharisees."

I would group them as follows, provisionally; I'm still learning the details and there might be a slightly better way to interpret/arrange them: This is just the best I know how to do so at the moment.

Matthew 5:21-26 #1 Do not Murder
Matthew 5:27-32 #2 Do not adulterate -- keep your oath in the flesh/of the body. (also applies to Jesus' flesh)
Matthew 5:33-37 #3 Do not make Oaths which give devils targets with which to kill you by your failure to keep.
Matthew 5:38-42 #4 Do not avenge yourself (revenge)
Matthew 5:43-48 #5 Forgiveness of enemies, ( selfless giving when it hurts )
Matthew 6:1-8 #6 Give alms and prayer for others in *secret* (anti-hypocrisy for public attention)
Matthew 6:9-15 #7 How to pray repetitiously, but NOT vainly ( James 1:26-27, also for #6 )
Matthew 6:16-18 #6' Fasting (anti-hypocrisy for public attention) ( Matthew 17:19-21 as part of prayer)
Matthew 6:19-21 #5' Against Greed ( selflessly give -- even to enemies )
Matthew 6:22-23 #4' Against an evil conscience (eg: revenge is wrong for it seeks the darkness of death )
Matthew 6:24-34 #3' No two masters (light and dark) Seek the kingdom: Matthew 6:33 vs ? Matthew 5:35 ?
Matthew 7:1-6 #2' Judgment ( hypocrisy as of scribes and Pharisees, brings about condemnation of self )
Matthew 7:7-11 #1' Prayer for what you need (?? Perhaps vs. Cain and Abel who prayed sacrificially vs. their needs)
Matthew 7:12 # Summary ending the inclusio

As I said, I'm still learning -- and I don't think I've correctly linked the exact meaning of all the inclusio rules to each other; But I know the basic idea behind one -- and I thought I'd share that.

It may be that you will notice things I haven't; for symmetry and reversals (chiasmus) are typically found as part of this kind of teaching ... and the more you find, the better you will have understood it's lesson. (wisdom, understanding).

But, these are clearly a law that Jesus wanted his own disciples to follow.

What I really notice is that In Matthew 5:19 Jesus says "these" commandments, but he hasn't listed any *specific* commandments yet -- however, when he says "these" he says that sentence *inside* the inclusio -- where he is speaking of HIS OWN Kingdom (The NT one); and his own Judgment of us.

That's why, I think "these" commandments refers to special list he makes inside the inclusio -- eg: in Matthew 5:21 and forward.

Final note:
I'm not sure what to make of Matthew 7:13-28 where there are additional "sayings" which explicitly "end" (Matthew 7:28); It's something I'm still pondering....

 

[Mitspa]

...Just not those in the Law of Moses? Or some of them? What? Explain. I honestly believe if you let the defensiveness of the law/grace indoctrination down you'll see that what passed away was the WAY of the Law, not the REQUIREMENTS of the Law. We serve in a NEW WAY that upholds the requirements of the Law of Moses, not destroys them. Sacrifice for sin is the BIGGEST most easily understood example of this. Our faith in Christ's blood did not destroy the Law of Moses regarding sacrifice for sin. It FULFILLED it. So well, that there is no further literal REQUIREMENT to do what the law commanded. Faith is how ALL of the law of Moses if fulfilled, not destroyed. Some things still require literal fulfillment through that faith. Some things do not require literal fulfillment through that faith. You don't make the literal requirements 'go away' just because some things (temple, priest, sacrifice) no longer require literal fulfillment.

You have missed my motive and my point, because you are trying to defend a temporary Law that was added to something greater.

The "first Law" sets the precedence for the rest.

The Messianic's base there whole logic on Jesus kept the Torah.

The foundation of the Torah is that we learn from God directly, not from an outside source.

He is the tree of Life. He alone is Eternal Life.

Eternal life is to know God and Jesus Christ whom He sent.

The Torah teaches us that man can not know good from evil by "learning" from any other source except God Himself.

But the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you, and you do not need that anyone teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you will abide in Him. 1 John 2:27

The Law of Moses dictated that you learn "good from evil" from other men.

The New Covenant states CLEARLY that -

31 "Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah-- 32 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the Lord. 33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 34 No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,' for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more." Jeremiah 31:31-34


No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,' for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the Lord.

Compare that to John -

But the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you, and you do not need that anyone teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you will abide in Him.

The New Covenant is nothing like the Law of Moses.

Why would anyone want to revert back to the Law of Moses?

Righteousness is not of the Law.

Justification is not of The law.

The Spirit of God does come by the works of the Law.

Casting out devils does not happen by The law.

Laying hands on the sick and they will recover was not by the law.

God has given us a New Covenant whereby we can learn from Him and have His Spirit dwell in us, to lead us and guide us into all truth.

What is the purpose of going back to trying to keep the law of Moses?

Here is the way Jesus kept Torah, which is founded in the First Law.

18 Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God. 19 Then Jesus answered and said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, but what He sees the Father do; for whatever He does, the Son also does in like manner. I can of Myself do nothing. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is righteous, because I do not seek My own will but the will of the Father who sent Me.

This boils down to -

I only say what I hear The Father say.

I only do what I see The Father do.

As many as are led by The Torah? No it doesn't say that.

As many as are led by The spirit of God, these are the sons of God!

That is why He could say to some - Your father is the devil.

Not because he read that in Moses Law, but because His source of Knowledge of good and evil was from God, not the Law of Moses.


JLB

Well said, only the pride of man looks to boast in their ability to do good. When God has judged that none is good, no not one! The harlot will enter the kingdom before those who seek to establish their own righteouness by the law of moses.

 

[Deborah13]

You have missed my motive and my point, because you are trying to defend a temporary Law that was added to something greater.

This whole post is so well done. Thank you.

 

[jasoncran]

sheesh. ya know I wasn't going to post. but I will. since I was once again checking a pm or two.

Im of isreal. part of me feels robbed that I wasn't raised in the temple. that Is why I don't think its good for me at times to be a messianic jew.However, if I was raised in the temple and were to believe the Lord and also was kosher and kept the feast that I was able to. is that a sin?

I submit a man who did do that and saved many a jews in the shoah

Rav Daniel Tzion was a Holocaust survivor, Chief Rabbi, and a selfless man after HaShem's own heart. Because of his G-d-given courage, wisdom, and faith, the Jews of Sofia, Bulgaria were delivered from genocide.

As one of the two Chief Rabbis of Sofia's Jews during World War II, Daniel Tzion, never converted to "Christianity". He had no formal baptism into any Gentile religion. He never stopped keeping Torah. He refused to surrender his identity as a physical and spiritual Israelite. He fully retained his cherished Jewish identity.

Yet this man, who delivered Bulgarian Jews from the Holocaust----a man who suffered persecution from Bulgarian xian anti-Semites; and who was publicly flogged by the Nazis during the occupation of Bulgaria----was also a man who loved Yeshua as the Messiah of Judaism, after he experienced supernatural revelation and personal encounters with Yeshua.

One morning, while he was praying and enjoying the sunrise, he saw a dramatic vision of a figure which appeared to be scintillating from the Sun. Baffled by the meaning of the vision, he sought the counsel of other Rabbis. Then the vision began to recur. As he was experiencing the same vision for the third time, Rab Daniel felt that he should speak to the figure in the vision. In reply, there came a voice identifying Himself as Yeshua. It is no small thing for a Rabbi to receive a vision of Yeshua the Moshiach. But, Rabbi Daniel Zion was well versed with the teaching, "Receive the truth by whomever it might come". He grasped that there must be something of awesome magnitude in this person who appeared to him. The bizarre nature of the vision compelled the Rav to seek an understanding of what G-d was revealing to him. When other rabbis were unable to shed any light on the significance of the visions, Rabbi Tzion decided that he would have to consult an alternate source about the meaning of the vision. He decided upon the Patriarchate of the Greek Orthodox Church in Sofia. Ultimately, G-d led him to the Archimandrite Stephen with whom he developed a close friendship. The two men had a frank exchange of ideas on a variety of spiritual subjects including Moshiach Yeshua and the early church. The Patriarch, who was well versed in the delicate relationship between Jews and Christians, encouraged Rav Tzion to forget about "Christianity" and to focus only on Yeshua HaMoshiach, himself.

After Nazi Germany occupied Bulgaria without shooting a single shot, Rabbi Daniel Zion as the spiritual leader of the Jewish community, became the object of persecution and ridicule. The rabbi was seized and publicly flogged in front of the Great Synagogue of Sofia. But during those times, Rabbi Daniel refused to cower, andwalked upright before the fascists. His only reaction was to call upon G-d.

When there was talk of shipping the Bulgarian Jews to Germany, Rabbi Daniel and his secretary A. A. Anski wrote a letter to the King of Bulgaria. Invoking the name of YaHshua, Rabbi Daniel implored the King to resist the abduction of Bulgarian Jews. In his letter, Rav Daniel told The King of the visions of Yeshua that he had experienced. He related that in one of the visions, YaHshua had told him that he must warn the King not to surrender Bulgarian Jews to the Nazis. After a long ordeal, and many hours of waiting at the door of the King's palace, the Rabbi and his secretary were able to deliver this letter to the King's secretary. On the very next day, the King was to travel to Germany for a meeting with the Nazi Government and Hitler himself. At that meeting, King Boris reversed his former intended position and resolutely opposed Hitler. He would not coerced into betraying the Jews of Bulgaria to the death camps. Inspired by his example, thousands of Bulgarian Christians reportedly laid their bodies across railroad tracks to block the passage of the Nazi death trains.

By that great miracle, many Bulgarian Jews survived the persecution and the Nazi occupation.

After the war, when state of Israel was born-again, Daniel and many Bulgarian Jews made Aliyah from then-Communist Bulgaria to Israel.

In 1954, when Rab Samuel Toledano became the chief Rabbi of Israel, he promptly invited Rabbi Daniel to serve as a judge in the Rabbinical court of Jerusalem. Later, when rumors started to fly that Rabbi Daniel Zion was a follower of Yeshua, Rabbi Toledano asked Rabbi Tzion to his office and questioned him about the rumors. Rabbi Daniel openly admitted that he followed YaHshua as The Messiah. But he also explained that he did not accept traditional Christianity as the true expression of the teaching and person of Yeshua HaMoshiach. Rabbi Toledano said that he could live with such a position as long as Rabbi Daniel would keep it to himself. But Rabbi Daniel said that he could not promise to keep such truth secret. Consequently, Toledano decided that the matter was out of his hands. He concluded that he was obligated to bring the matter before the full Beit Din for a decision..

In the Israeli Rabbinic court, evidence of Rab Daniel's faith in YaHshua the Messiah was presented in the form of four books that the Rabbi had written, in Bulgarian, about YaHshua. When Rabbi Danie was given an opportunity to speak, these were his words:

" I am poor and feeble, persecuted and vulnerable, Yeshua conquered me, and with the New Man he honored me, He delivered me from the poverty-stricken self and with his great love, he cherished me."

"Every day the canny devil aspires to grab my faith, I hold on to my encourager, and chase the devil away. I stand here alone in my faith. The whole world is against me. I give up all the earthly honor for the sake of the Messiah."

TheBeit Din stripped Rabbi Daniel from his Rabbinical Title, but the Bulgarian Jews continued to honor Rav Daniel as their Rabbi. A Russian Jew who was one of the early Zionist settlers in Rishon LeZion, and who had become a follower of Yeshua, gave Rabbi Tzion a building on Yeffet St. in the heart of Jaffa, for a Synagogue. Rabbi Daniel officiated in that Shul until 1973. Rab Tzion did not speak of YaHshua openly, while in the Temple. But he did often share stories and parables from the New Testament. On Shabbos, after Shul, Rabbi Daniel would always invite a group from the congregation to his home; where they would then study about Yeshua and theBrit HaDashah (New Testament).This would continue all afternoon, until it was time to return to the Shul for evening prayers.

Many Christians visited Rabbi Daniel Tzon in his Jaffa home. They wrote articles about him, and on rare occasions would even offer him substantial sums of money for the use of his name, or for his participation, in their ministries. In every case, Rabbi Daniel rejected their offers. He did not want to offend his people for the sake of money. When some of the Christians gave him free-will offerings with no any strings attached, the Rabbi would accept, but would pass all of it on to charitable organizations; typically those which were serving orphans, widows, and the disabled. Rav Tzion lived in abject poverty. There was nothing in his home that was of value so he never locked the doors.

Rabbi Daniel Tzion wrote hundreds of songs about YaHshua the Messiah, Shabbos, and The Abundant Life.

Rav Daniel's major contribution to Messianic Judaism was his personal example. He lived a 100% Kosher lifestyle, while at the same time he was 100% committed to following the Messiah, YaHshua. He did not compromise his faith or his Jewish identity for money from the Christians; nor did he succumb to the pressures of the chief rabbinate.

In 1979 Rabbi Daniel Zion was harvested by The L-rd the ripe old age of 96 years. The Bulgarian Jewish community of Israel arranged full military, and state honors. His bier stood in the center of Jaffa with a military guard. At noon, pall bearers carried the casket all the way to the Holon cemetery on foot. He was honored as a Chief Rabbi of Sofia's Jews; but also as G-d's chosen deliverer from the Nazi holocaust. A true Jew in every sense, a man who stood boldly against fascists, anti-Messiah Jews, and anti-Jewish xians. YaHshua was his savior, friend, hope, light, and guide.

His poems survive to this day. Below is one of Rav Daniel's poems, (which has been set to music by the Messianic Jewish music group Meha Shamayim).

No not I, No not I, only you are Yeshua in me!

Only you bring me before the God of my fathers,

Only you can heal me from every evil illness,

No not I, No not I, only you are Yeshua in me!

Only you teach me to love all creation,

Only you teach me to love even the enemy,

No not I, No not I, only you are Yeshua in me!

For this reason I will stay in your love,

For ever will I be within your will,

No not I, No not I, only you are Yeshua in me!

To the last days of his life, Rabbi Daniel Zion lived up to the poem that he wrote with the acrostic of his name, Daniel Zion the Servant of God.

The (Daver) Word of God is my path,
The (Ner) Lamp of God is my guide,
The (Iraat) Fear of God is the beginning of Wisdom,
The (Ahavat) Love of God is my Life,
The (Laasoth) Doing the will of God is my aspiration,
(Zedek) Righteousness and Justice are my goals,
His (Isurim) Suffering is my atonement,
He will (OYagen) protect you in all your ways,
The (Nezah) Eternal one of Israel is my comfort

 

[Mitspa]

so what, is the point jason? No man can save the soul of another man, Only Christ is the Savior and to go back to the temple is to deny that He was the Temple.
To account His Blood as common as animals is the greatest sin of all.

 

[jasoncran]

how and why did paul then say that if the man esteems the day unto the lord? what day would that be? and others being offended? and new moon and new Sabbath? that wouldn't be the torah and its feasts? nah.

now then I will show you something I never saw before.

paul always greeted the church with this

Grace be to you and peace from God the Father, and from our Lord Jesus Christ

and then note the eary similiarility to the idea of shalom alechum and or the Aaronic priesthood blessing. paul didn't get that from scratch

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aaronic_blessing

and shalom aleicum.

jews btw greet each other with this.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shalom_Aleichem

in context it is as you do the torah may the heshem bless you and you have peace. nah that is jewish thought in the nt

 

[Mitspa]

There is ONE INTERCESSOR between God and man.
All this debate on this thread comes down to ONE ISSUE?
Who is Christ Jesus? Those of us who know that the Father spoke from the Holy Mountain "THIS IS MY BELOVED SON, HEAR HIM" as moses and elias vanished before His Glory.
He is the EXPRESS IMAGE of God. He is God. Moses is nothing as but one who knew Him. The prophets are but those who spoke and fortold of Him, BEFORE ABRAHAM "I AM"
He made heavens and the earth. No one has seen God at anytime, but He has shown us.

 

[WIP]

Okay, I did some cleanup work. There could probably be more that should be done but I'll leave it here for now. Let's stay on topic and remember the ToS. Thank you.

 

[Deborah13]

Messianic Judaism teaches that Jesus is not YHWH God, but rather a man.

Apparently some do believe that Jesus is God and believe in the Triune God. I give this reference but there are many more.
http://www.menorah.org/askpr7.html

In this article they prove the Triune God in OT scriptures. Very interesting article.