When did the Law pass or has it passed away?

[Jethro Bodine]

The Torah teaches us that man can not know good from evil by "learning" from any other source except God Himself.

But the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you, and you do not need that anyone teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you will abide in Him. 1 John 2:27

The Law of Moses dictated that you learn "good from evil" from other men.

The New Covenant states CLEARLY that -

31 "Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah-- 32 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the Lord. 33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 34 No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,' for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more." Jeremiah 31:31-34


No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,' for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the Lord.

Compare that to John -

But the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you, and you do not need that anyone teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you will abide in Him.

The New Covenant is nothing like the Law of Moses.

I cringe every time I hear people in the church say we don't need teachers to learn. That is hardly true at all.

"11...Christ himself gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the pastors and teachers, 12 to equip his people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up 13 until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ." (Ephesians 4:11-13 NIV)

What all people have in the kingdom of God in the New Covenant is the power of discernment, not the ability to be our own teachers.

Because we ALL have the Holy Spirit--not just a privileged few, whom the people of God were dependent upon to be told what they heard was true or not--we all have the power to discern truth and, ultimately, not be led astray.

Why would anyone want to revert back to the Law of Moses?

Who's reverting back to the law of Moses? This is about fulfilling the law of Moses--the requirements of God--through the love that faith produces. Haven't you been doing that?

Righteousness is not of the Law.

Justification is not of The law.

What does this have to do with what is being defended here? Who is insisting we have to be justified by the law of Moses?

The Spirit of God does come by the works of the Law.

Casting out devils does not happen by The law.

Laying hands on the sick and they will recover was not by the law.

...And so this means I don't have to 'love your neighbor as yourself', and all the ways the law says to do that (do not steal, do not lie, do not covet, consider the poor, don't hold grudges....)?

What is the purpose of going back to trying to keep the law of Moses?

Why do you NOT want to 'keep' the requirements of the law of Moses? James says if your faith, for example, shows favoritism (Leviticus 19:15), doesn't help the brother/sister in need (Deuteronomy 15:7-8,11), doesn't consider the widow and the orphan (Deuteronomy 14:28-29), you have a faith that can not save you (James 1 & 2).

It's amazing to me how many people will say, 'no, faith without works can save!', in direct contradiction to James. And almost as bad, they'll insist that defending what James says means you think justification is by the merit of works. JLB, I WISH the church didn't need teachers, and this nonsense could be put to an end!

[/B]Here is the way Jesus kept Torah, which is founded in the First Law.

18 Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God. 19 Then Jesus answered and said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, but what He sees the Father do; for whatever He does, the Son also does in like manner. I can of Myself do nothing. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is righteous, because I do not seek My own will but the will of the Father who sent Me.

This boils down to -

I only say what I hear The Father say.

I only do what I see The Father do.

As many as are led by The Torah? No it doesn't say that.

Then what do we do with these examples of Jesus 'looking to the law of Moses' to resist the temptations of the Devil?

"4 Jesus answered, “It is written: ‘Man shall not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God." (Matthew 4:4 NIV)

"7 Jesus answered him, “It is also written: ‘Do not put the Lord your God to the test." (Matthew 4:7 NIV)

"10 Jesus said to him, “Away from me, Satan! For it is written: ‘Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only." (Matthew 4:10 NIV)

 

[JLB]

I cringe every time I hear people in the church say we don't need teachers to learn. That is hardly true at all. What all people have in the kingdom of God in the New Covenant is the power of discernment, not the ability to be our own teachers. Because we ALL have the Holy Spirit, not just a privileged few whom the people of God were dependent upon to be told what they heard was true and what wasn't.

We need teachers, Pastors, evangelists, Apostles and Prophets.

Neverless as Jeremiah and John write to us...

Who's reverting back to the law of Moses? This is about fulfilling the law of Moses--the requirements of God--through the love that faith produces. Haven't you been doing that?

The Messianic Judaism followers, if you care to check out what they believe.

They don't believe Jesus is God or Lord [YHWH].
They teach everything must be founded upon the Law.

Why do you NOT want to 'keep' the requirements of the law of Moses? James says if your faith, for example, shows favoritism (Leviticus 19:15), doesn't help the brother/sister in need (Deuteronomy 15:7-8,11), doesn't consider the widow and the orphan (Deuteronomy 14:28-29), you have a faith that can not save you (James 1 & 2). It's amazing to me how many people will say, 'no, faith without works can save!', in direct contradiction to James. And almost as bad, they'll insist that defending what James says means you think justification is by the merit of works. JLB, I WISH the church didn't need teachers, and this nonsense could be put to an end!

What are the requirments you want me to keep out of Moses Law.

There is at least 613. All of them? None of them? Be specific, not vague.

Then what do we do with these examples of Jesus 'looking to the law of Moses' to resist the temptations of the Devil? "4 Jesus answered, “It is written: ‘Man shall not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God." (Matthew 4:4 NIV) "7 Jesus answered him, “It is also written: ‘Do not put the Lord your God to the test." (Matthew 4:7 NIV) "10 Jesus said to him, “Away from me, Satan! For it is written: ‘Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only." (Matthew 4:10 NIV)

A. Jesus didn't look to those scriptures. He answered Satan directly with that word.

B. Jesus was not yet crucified and the Spirit not yet given.

C. That is God's Law, that was contained "in" the law of Moses.

d. All of the above

If Satan tempts you, you fight with the written word and the prophetic word.


JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

No straining to it. It's a simple third grade grammar lesson.

Funny, but that was exactly what I was going to point out to you, but didn't for time and space reasons.

It's completely unreasonable, grammatically speaking, that the use of 'law' in this single thought somehow changes to mean something other than what the 'rather' points out about the 'law' just before it.

"31 Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law (by this faith)." (Romans 3:31 NIV)

But, as I've shown from other scripture, the law IS upheld (fulfilled, satisfied, kept) by faith in the blood of Christ, so there's no reason to make Romans 3:31 not say that.

It is a matter of understanding the context, a comparison of the law of works and the law of faith. Two choices. The law of Moses is not in the choices.

Unless you would consider that Paul is referring to the law of Moses when he mentions the law of works?

As a way to be justified. That's what you're not understanding! He's not doing away with obedience to the requirements of the law (do not murder, do not steal, etc.). That's ridiculous! What he's doing away with is the false belief that the law of Moses is how a person is justified.

If that is the case then it is case closed. You just proved that The law of Moses is no longer around, because that would make the Law of Moses the Law of works, by which your salvation is determined by the works of your hands.

When the law is mentioned after verse 27 it is either the law of works or the law of faith, not the Law of Moses.

Law means the requirements of the law of Moses. He's saying we are not justified by doing those requirements. We are justified by faith. And he's careful to point out that faith does not nullify the requirements of the law. Faith upholds them! Very, very reasonable... grammatically, and doctrinally, being in perfect sync with what he's teaching in the chapter.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

We need teachers, Pastors, evangelists, Apostles and Prophets.

Neverless as Jeremiah and John write to us...

You said we didn't need them in this New Covenant, that only the inferior way of the law needed them. Why is Paul contradicting your interpretation of the passage in John? Explain.

The Messianic Judaism followers, if you care to check out what they believe.

They don't believe Jesus is God or Lord [YHWH].
They teach everything must be founded upon the Law.

I'm not defending any particular sect. They can be as varied as the church you defend. And I know you would think it unfair for someone to say 'Christians don't so and so...' and insist you believe that, too, by virtue of the label instead of the content of what you actually believe.

What are the requirments you want me to keep out of Moses Law.

The moral law. Paul said the debt that remains outstanding is the debt to love, and that love fulfills the requirements of the law, 'do not steal', 'do not covet' etc. (Romans 13:8-10 NIV)--the Ten Commandments that so many are sure have 'passed away'.

There is at least 613. All of them? None of them? Be specific, not vague.

Hmm...not gonna take the time to list them all. Any law designed to protect your neighbor from YOU is what you are still literally obligated to uphold. In fact, that's what the New Covenant is all about--the power and the motivation to now do that! The requirement didn't change. The method changed.

"6 But now we have been released from the (authority of the) Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter." (Romans 7:6 NIV)

The WAY we serve God is what changed, not the requirements we are serving.

Then what do we do with these examples of Jesus 'looking to the law of Moses' to resist the temptations of the Devil? "4 Jesus answered, “It is written: ‘Man shall not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God." (Matthew 4:4 NIV) "7 Jesus answered him, “It is also written: ‘Do not put the Lord your God to the test." (Matthew 4:7 NIV) "10 Jesus said to him, “Away from me, Satan! For it is written: ‘Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only." (Matthew 4:10 NIV)

A. Jesus didn't look to those scriptures. He answered Satan directly with that word.

The contention was we don't need the written word of God. That we just kind of know by the Spirit what to do. Because that's what Jesus did. Well, I showed you Jesus did use the word.

B. Jesus was not yet crucified and the Spirit not yet given.

Jesus had the Spirit. And yet he is using the written word of God and not depending on some mysterious guidance system that doesn't need knowledge of the word.

C. That is God's Law, that was contained "in" the law of Moses.

Why the distinction? The law is the law.

d. All of the above

Hmm...maybe I don't know what you were doing here. Multiple choice, or multiple answers?

If Satan tempts you, you fight with the written word and the prophetic word.

But you were defending the popular thinking in the church that we don't need the Law for guidance purposes.

 

[About the Son of God]

The Torah was given so Israel would be distinct amongst the nations, but in a manner glorifying God and driving the nations to worship the God of Israel. I showed you numerous passages where foreigners were welcomed into the commonwealth of Israel. Nineveh is another example of revival and repentance of a foreign nation.

hmmm.... some thoughts....

Romans 2:14 ;
When they do by *nature* the things CONTAINED in the law.... (but they aren't a law if they do otherwise.... )
So that agrees with you.

By seeing the justness of the law of Moses, compared to their own, it was expected that the Gentiles would emulate the Law. But the Jewish disobedience to that law had the opposite effect that God desired; the Israelites were often considered just "on par" with other nations.

Romans 2:24, ( Can you find the exact O.T. quote from the Hebrew KJV, I can't... )
2Samuel 12:14, Isaiah 52:5, Ezekiel 36:20

But, I would like to recall to your mind, that the period from Noah to Abraham is shared by all nations; so only part of the Torah makes Israel distinct.

Also... a small perspective issue that may/not apply; depending on your exact point.
Nineveh, the prophet said, in 40 days would be destroyed; and in roughly 40 days of years after the prophecy -- it was destroyed. That was the prophetic point of the plant given to Jonah, for God sent a worm to destroy it after the plant had brought Jonah comfort; Nineveh was pleasing to God for a day, but the repentance did not last.
God was patient with them for some 39 years more...

But even more acutely felt/shaming, though, is that Jonah ran away from prophesying to Nineveh -- for he detested them and didn't want God to show them mercy ....

In more ways than one, it wasn't the Torah which guided Jonas to Nineveh.

In the Jewish writings, extrabiblical; they suppose that the child whom Elijah brought back to life, was the same Jonah who was sent to Nineveh; So, again, Jonas is not supposed by older rabbis to actually be a Jew under the law who is traditionally associated with the repentance of Nineveh -- it's a gentile; cf: parallel idea Luke 4:25-26;
Although the name Jonah became popular in Jewish usage, for Simon called Cephas/Peter was originally named Simon bar Jonah; and also called Simon bar John. ( Perhaps John is a variation of Jonah ?, I'm not sure. )

In any event: The character's I mentioned are all figures, like Abraham, who were saved outside the Law on account of their Faith; as was Enoch, Noah, and a few others.

It's clearly evident that God continued to work with Gentiles piecemeal, in parallel with Israel; but not under the law of Moses. ( I'm not negating your other examples ).

 

[About the Son of God]

Originally Posted by JLB View Post C. That is God's Law, that was contained "in" the law of Moses.

Why the distinction? The law is the law.

Not that I want to rehash with JLB; but between you and I -- I would still, as I did earlier in the thread, point out that Genesis is Torah, but not "THE" law of Moses. ( John 7:22 is one example of the distinction ).

Genesis is Law, according to how God created Adam, and which laid the foundation of what eg:Adultery is; The Law of Moses, then, is clearly an addition meant as a stop gap once the promise was formally made to Abraham while Jesus (the seed) had not yet come. It is NOT clear to me, for example, that the 613 statutes would have been added in the specific way they were if the Israelites had not sinned at the golden calf.
For example, Jesus refers to divorce being given by "Moses" rather than God, on account of hardness of heart (definition of sin!). So that, the Law of Moses is a mixture of laws, some added on account of sin -- some codifications of law which pre-existed the sin of the Golden calf.

It's not until the Golden calf that the whole of israel is implicated in sinning a "great" sin; and the ban of God would fall on all of them. It is after this point where Moses intercedes as a mediator to prevent their total annihilation -- and at which point the specific laws (613+) were laid out.

The ten commandments were first written before the "great" sin; and then re-written after they were broken at that "sin"; SO it's clear to me that they were intended before and after the calf incident. ( and yes, there were sins before the calf -- the stone if not originally a sign of sin, Revelation 2:17, Peter's name, the ephod, etc. definitely became one later with respect to the law; Matthew 3:9, Matthew 4:3 bread=two in one flesh, devil perverts it. )

But back to the 10 words (Decalogue).
10 is a number signifying divinity -- it's not really the number of sentences in the commandments (Go ahead and count them).

So that what Moses was really signifying, by calling them 10, is that God himself wrote them (one fingered even) as his own eternal law; And I am emphasizing this as contrary to the mediated law of Moses which happened after the Golden calf incident.

It is upon the noachide laws in Genesis (with additions), that the Church chose to lay burdens on the Gentiles eg: Acts 15:29; and it is definitely where the laws of husband and wife are always drawn; (Referring to Christ and the church as well) 1Peter 3:5, 1Corinthians 11:7-10; 1Timothy 2:13-14; Eve was deceived by an "angel" who fell. etc.

The early church appears to have mostly avoided using the laws specifically named by Moses (or even circumcision which had become SOOOO identified with Moses, though it wasn't his.); but the Apostles were not adverse to binding laws upon the early church which have their roots in Genesis. Including that man should love his wife so as to be ready to sacrifice himself for her; which Adam sort of did, but mostly did not.

Originally Posted by JLB View Post d. All of the above Hmm...maybe I don't know what you were doing here. Multiple choice, or multiple answers? Quote Originally Posted by JLB View Post If Satan tempts you, you fight with the written word and the prophetic word.

But you were defending the popular thinking in the church that we don't need the Law for guidance purposes.

I think you hit it on the head; There is a disconnect between "we don't need laws to tell us anything" and "we don't need a man to tell us to know the Lord" -- and the fact that they read Paul (a MAN) to learn these things; and that (at least superficially) there is ONE law remaining -- don't you dare do any of the laws Moses gave.

Which would include divorce, by the way....!!!! :D

Notice: No permission or mention of divorce happens in Genesis.
Death came before divorce.

It's hard for me to see how these things are reconcilable.
Paul clearly makes a law of fear for those who demand that the law of Moses is a curse.

The best guess I have is that their grammar (3rd grade or above) and their statements, do not really convey the message they think it does.
Plain reading of their statements generally leads to inferences that they will deny but only when cornered; and one poster after another makes the same plain inferences when discussing these issues with them.

 

[JLB]

Hmm...not gonna take the time to list them all. Any law designed to protect your neighbor from YOU is what you are still literally obligated to uphold. In fact, that's what the New Covenant is all about--the power and the motivation to now do that! The requirement didn't change. The method changed. "6 But now we have been released from the (authority of the) Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter." (Romans 7:6 NIV) The WAY we serve God is what changed, not the requirements we are serving.

Ok this is the second time I have asked you to list the requirements in the Law of Moses that you believe I as a Christian should keep.

Until you or anyone can give me a list of requirements in the Law of Moses I should keep, then that means you don't know yourself.

Do you think that we should pick out the laws that we want to keep from the law of Moses.

Do you think we should just keep the feasts.

Or is it the thou shall not's in the law of Moses that a Christian should keep?

Lots and lots of choices.

How about this from the original Apostles and Elders in Jerusalem, together with the Holy Spirit -

Since we have heard that some who went out from us have troubled you with words, unsettling your souls, saying, "You must be circumcised and keep the law"--to whom we gave no such commandment-- 25 it seemed good to us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men to you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, 26 men who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. 27 We have therefore sent Judas and Silas, who will also report the same things by word of mouth. 28 For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things: 29 that you abstain from things offered to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from sexual immorality. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well. Farewell. Acts 15:24-29

Why don't you just say what they said, if I asked you.

Do you believe what they said here in Acts.

Why all the drama.

Why not answer my question about which part of Moses Law should i keep with a simple cut and paste from scripture -

JLB here is the part of Mose Law I believe you should keep -

28 For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things: 29 that you abstain from things offered to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from sexual immorality.

Simple.

JLB

 

[JLB]

But you were defending the popular thinking in the church that we don't need the Law for guidance purposes.

You absolutely couldn't be more wrong.

We will always learn many wonderful insights from God's word.

The examples from the lives of those lived out in the Old testament.

All those truths are just as relevant for us today.

as it is written -

Moreover, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through the sea, 2 all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, 3 all ate the same spiritual food, 4 and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ. 5 But with most of them God was not well pleased, for their bodies were scattered in the wilderness. 6 Now these things became our examples, to the intent that we should not lust after evil things as they also lusted. 1 Corinthians 10:1-6

How to you just make the JUMP to the conclusion that I somehow don't think we need all of God's word?

I don't believe we need to keep the Law of Moses which is 613 requirements that were nailed to the cross.

I do believe we can learn from all of God's word.

for it is written -

All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,.

That is a big difference than trying to keep the law of Moses!

JLB

 

[Mitspa]

Hmm...not gonna take the time to list them all. Any law designed to protect your neighbor from YOU is what you are still literally obligated to uphold. In fact, that's what the New Covenant is all about--the power and the motivation to now do that! The requirement didn't change. The method changed. "6 But now we have been released from the (authority of the) Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter." (Romans 7:6 NIV) The WAY we serve God is what changed, not the requirements we are serving.

Ok this is the second time I have asked you to list the requirements in the Law of Moses that you believe I as a Christian should keep.

Until you or anyone can give me a list of requirements in the Law of Moses I should keep, then that means you don't know yourself.

Do you think that we should pick out the laws that we want to keep from the law of Moses.

Do you think we should just keep the feasts.

Or is it the thou shall not's in the law of Moses that a Christian should keep?

Lots and lots of choices.

How about this from the original Apostles and Elders in Jerusalem, together with the Holy Spirit -

Since we have heard that some who went out from us have troubled you with words, unsettling your souls, saying, "You must be circumcised and keep the law"--to whom we gave no such commandment-- 25 it seemed good to us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men to you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, 26 men who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. 27 We have therefore sent Judas and Silas, who will also report the same things by word of mouth. 28 For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things: 29 that you abstain from things offered to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from sexual immorality. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well. Farewell. Acts 15:24-29

Why don't you just say what they said, if I asked you.

Do you believe what they said here in Acts.

Why all the drama.

Why not answer my question about which part of Moses Law should i keep with a simple cut and paste from scripture -

JLB here is the part of Mose Law I believe you should keep -

28 For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things: 29 that you abstain from things offered to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from sexual immorality.

Simple.

JLB

Very clear points that prove that none of those who quote Rom 3:31 understand that Rom 3:19-21 is the way the law is established for its purpose.
They are not trying to uphold the law, but the the righteousness of mans flesh. They "break" the law into parts and bring it down to a carnal level, that they may glory in their own sin.
The law is ESTABLISHED AND UPHELD but those who have no confidence in the flesh, but worship God in spirit.

FOR GOD IS A SPIRIT AND THOSE WHO WORSHIP HIM MUST WORSHIP HIM IN SPIRIT AND IN TRUTH.

 

[Ryan]

Look at the beginning of the verse and the writer is making a clear distinction between the customized and the uncustomized group. The Jew and Gentile. Pentecost and Peter's vision is so prevalent here, and both speak to the thought of the day. Judaism was teaching, and of which Peter was guilty of at one point, Gentiles were unclean and had to convert to being a Jew to merit salvation. That is the very fabric and substance of many of the Epistles and the issues being addressed for each region.

This may be so, but it does not address my argument. Unless you are saying - and no person familiar with the Old Testament should say this - that the Law of Moses as specified by God did not split humanity into two groups. It certainly did! And its not a man-made distinction, its a God-decreed distinction:

You are therefore to make a distinction between the clean animal and the unclean, and between the unclean bird and the clean; and you shall not make [o]yourselves detestable by animal or by bird or by anything [p]that creeps on the ground, which I have separated for you as unclean. 26 Thus you are to be holy to Me, for I the Lord am holy; and I have set you apart from the peoples to be Mine

I suspect, repeat suspect, that you are trying to argue that the "genuine" Law of Moses did not function to split humanity into two groups. I am quite confident that position simply cannot work. From the rest of your post, it does appear that this is what you are trying to say. I am confident there are many texts that show that this simply cannot work - God clearly intends the Law of Moses to, among other things perhaps, distinguish the Jew from the Gentile. And this is precisely why the abolition of the Law of Moses is precisely what would unite Jew and Gentile.

Yes, it might seem to us that God should never set aside the Jew from the Gentile and give a special law and special promises. But what seems "right" to us is not the prime consideration - the prime consideration is what the Bible says.

Deuteronomy 4:5 “See, I have taught you statutes and judgments just as the Lord my God commanded me, that you should do thus in the land where you are entering to possess it. 6 So keep and do them, for that is your wisdom and your understanding in the sight of the peoples who will hear all these statutes and say, ‘Surely this great nation is a wise and understanding people.’ 7 For what great nation is there that has a god so near to it as is the Lord our God whenever we call on Him? 8 Or what great nation is there that has statutes and judgments as righteous as this whole law which I am setting before you today?

God's laws, if carried out properly, were to be a shining light for all the other nations. Think about it, no idolatry, no paganism, no sacrificing people, caring for the disadvantaged, not marrying certain groups of people, and above all, having Yahweh on your side, so yes this was supposed to keep them distinct. Not only to protect them sin and calamity, but also to drive the nations to jealousy. Which brings me to the next point.

We as believers are called out to act and behave in a way radically different from the rest of society. By how we act and treat people should be a testimony that we serve Jesus and he is the centre of our life. We cannot be part of the world, but we are to share our testimony with others so they could be part of this distinct group, God's peculiar treasure. A light to the world is what God calls us to be, as well as what he had called Israel to be. But sometimes, we fail miserably.

 

[Ryan]

We do not believe one has to convert to being a Jew. Jew and Gentile one in Messiah, one in the Olive Tree. We do believe God in his infinite wisdom and love, gave us the Torah as the path to walk AFTER receiving salvation. So this includes the commandments that can be observed today. A cultural marker you said, just adds a wall of division that these are solely for the Jews. These are God's commandments, not the Jews. It's the path God called us out from our own spiritual Egypt to walk in. That in a nutshell is what we believe.

Thanks for clarifying.

It seems you are saying that the Mosaic Law is still legally binding on Jews - that since it is from God, that is why you follow it. I understand you do not follow it out of earning righteousness - but I presume you no longer stone adulterers, etc.? If these are from God and the Law is still in effect (which I believe Messianics teach), then at what point did such rules go away?

Thanks for your explanation.

Regards

We follow it because God said if you do, it will go well for you.

Deuteronomy 12:28 “Be careful to listen to all these words which I command you, so that it may be well with you and your sons after you forever, for you will be doing what is good and right in the sight of the Lord your God.

I ask you, if God said it once, why would it pass away?

Yes there are many things we cannot do or practice. But because of no Temple, Sanhedrin, King, Israel, etc. and no, we don't stone adulterers.

Deuteronomy 6:24-25. 24 So the Lord commanded us to observe all these statutes, to fear the Lord our God for our good always and for our survival, as it is today. 25 It will be righteousness for us if we [h]are careful to observe all this commandment before the Lord our God, just as He commanded us.

I see arguments over righteousness. What do you think it means. Nd has righteousness changed between in OT times nd NT times?

 

[francisdesales]

We do not believe one has to convert to being a Jew. Jew and Gentile one in Messiah, one in the Olive Tree. We do believe God in his infinite wisdom and love, gave us the Torah as the path to walk AFTER receiving salvation. So this includes the commandments that can be observed today. A cultural marker you said, just adds a wall of division that these are solely for the Jews. These are God's commandments, not the Jews. It's the path God called us out from our own spiritual Egypt to walk in. That in a nutshell is what we believe.

Thanks for clarifying.

It seems you are saying that the Mosaic Law is still legally binding on Jews - that since it is from God, that is why you follow it. I understand you do not follow it out of earning righteousness - but I presume you no longer stone adulterers, etc.? If these are from God and the Law is still in effect (which I believe Messianics teach), then at what point did such rules go away?

Thanks for your explanation.

Regards

We follow it because God said if you do, it will go well for you.

Deuteronomy 12:28 “Be careful to listen to all these words which I command you, so that it may be well with you and your sons after you forever, for you will be doing what is good and right in the sight of the Lord your God.

I ask you, if God said it once, why would it pass away?

Yes there are many things we cannot do or practice. But because of no Temple, Sanhedrin, King, Israel, etc. and no, we don't stone adulterers.

Deuteronomy 6:24-25. 24 So the Lord commanded us to observe all these statutes, to fear the Lord our God for our good always and for our survival, as it is today. 25 It will be righteousness for us if we [h]are careful to observe all this commandment before the Lord our God, just as He commanded us.

I see arguments over righteousness. What do you think it means. Nd has righteousness changed between in OT times nd NT times?

I agree that we follow it because things will go well for you. But is it legally binding upon us? It would appear that with Christ, the meaning of the Mosaic Law has changed. Has righteousness changed? Not in essence, it REMAINS faithful following of God's Will as revealed to man. It utterly depends upon God's mercy. Righteous Jews were aware of this, that was not something first discovered by Paul.

Now, if one codifies rules and regulations, one can see how this COULD lead to a mentality of observing the externals without the internal conviction. The Minor Prophets like Amos are often calling the people to change the manner that they follow God: "I (God) desire mercy, not sacrifice". The Psalms also speak of God who does not desire blood - but conversion. Sacrifice is of little use if the inner self is not converted.

Now, in Christ, the ministrial priesthood has changed, the externals have changed, abrogated. As you mentioned, the Temple cult is done. The externals and the juridicial value of the Mosaic Law. But the inner sense, the essence of the law, remains. The just walk by faith.

By the way, I would highly recommend David Stern's "Jewish NT Commentary", if you don't already have it. Although i am Catholic and disagree with some of his interpretations on a few verses, he offers a valuable commentary on the NT from the Messianic point of view, I found it most useful.

http://www.amazon.com/Jewish-New-Te...F8&qid=1365513044&sr=1-3&keywords=david+stern

Regards

 

[JLB]

Look at the beginning of the verse and the writer is making a clear distinction between the customized and the uncustomized group. The Jew and Gentile. Pentecost and Peter's vision is so prevalent here, and both speak to the thought of the day. Judaism was teaching, and of which Peter was guilty of at one point, Gentiles were unclean and had to convert to being a Jew to merit salvation. That is the very fabric and substance of many of the Epistles and the issues being addressed for each region.

This may be so, but it does not address my argument. Unless you are saying - and no person familiar with the Old Testament should say this - that the Law of Moses as specified by God did not split humanity into two groups. It certainly did! And its not a man-made distinction, its a God-decreed distinction:

You are therefore to make a distinction between the clean animal and the unclean, and between the unclean bird and the clean; and you shall not make [o]yourselves detestable by animal or by bird or by anything [p]that creeps on the ground, which I have separated for you as unclean. 26 Thus you are to be holy to Me, for I the Lord am holy; and I have set you apart from the peoples to be Mine

I suspect, repeat suspect, that you are trying to argue that the "genuine" Law of Moses did not function to split humanity into two groups. I am quite confident that position simply cannot work. From the rest of your post, it does appear that this is what you are trying to say. I am confident there are many texts that show that this simply cannot work - God clearly intends the Law of Moses to, among other things perhaps, distinguish the Jew from the Gentile. And this is precisely why the abolition of the Law of Moses is precisely what would unite Jew and Gentile.

Yes, it might seem to us that God should never set aside the Jew from the Gentile and give a special law and special promises. But what seems "right" to us is not the prime consideration - the prime consideration is what the Bible says.

Deuteronomy 4:5 “See, I have taught you statutes and judgments just as the Lord my God commanded me, that you should do thus in the land where you are entering to possess it. 6 So keep and do them, for that is your wisdom and your understanding in the sight of the peoples who will hear all these statutes and say, ‘Surely this great nation is a wise and understanding people.’ 7 For what great nation is there that has a god so near to it as is the Lord our God whenever we call on Him? 8 Or what great nation is there that has statutes and judgments as righteous as this whole law which I am setting before you today?

God's laws, if carried out properly, were to be a shining light for all the other nations. Think about it, no idolatry, no paganism, no sacrificing people, caring for the disadvantaged, not marrying certain groups of people, and above all, having Yahweh on your side, so yes this was supposed to keep them distinct. Not only to protect them sin and calamity, but also to drive the nations to jealousy. Which brings me to the next point.

We as believers are called out to act and behave in a way radically different from the rest of society. By how we act and treat people should be a testimony that we serve Jesus and he is the centre of our life. We cannot be part of the world, but we are to share our testimony with others so they could be part of this distinct group, God's peculiar treasure. A light to the world is what God calls us to be, as well as what he had called Israel to be. But sometimes, we fail miserably.

Key phrase - God's Laws!

The Laws that were kept that established them as a nation through Abraham.

They began as a nation with Abraham.

Abraham walked with God in Covenant relationship, thereby obeying His Voice.

God's Law to Abraham was - Now the Lord had said to Abram: "Get out of your country, From your family And from your father's house, To a land that I will show you.

There will be no great nation if Abraham does not - Get out of his country.

Where is the Law of Moses in - Get out of your country...

Without hearing the Voice of God, there will be no faith to get out of his country to a land that I will show you.

2 I will make you a great nation; I will bless you And make your name great; And you shall be a blessing.

The Lord desires relationship, in which you hear His Voice, that gives you faith, to do what He tells you to do.

That is the foundation of Covenant relationship.

When you walk with God in relationship He Himself will teach you His Laws, statutes and you hear His Voice and obey His commands.

Judaism teaches you must learn the Law in a synagog and are concerned with all the requirements of mans traditions about the synagog and the rabbi and the law of Moses and the all the religious things that keep you chasing your tail with an endless list of rules.

Not so with the example left to us in the scriptures by Abraham.

Abraham had a living relationship with the Lord as The Lord intended in the garden with Adam.

A life of purpose with The Lord.

Without hearing His Voice there will be no faith.

Without faith it is impossible to please God.

Faith does not come from reading the Logos.

Faith comes by hearing the Rhema.

The law is not of faith.


JLB

 

[Drew]

Deuteronomy 4:5 “See, I have taught you statutes and judgments just as the Lord my God commanded me, that you should do thus in the land where you are entering to possess it. 6 So keep and do them, for that is your wisdom and your understanding in the sight of the peoples who will hear all these statutes and say, ‘Surely this great nation is a wise and understanding people.’ 7 For what great nation is there that has a god so near to it as is the Lord our God whenever we call on Him? 8 Or what great nation is there that has statutes and judgments as righteous as this whole law which I am setting before you today?

All true, but this in no way implies that God gave the Law of Moses to anyone other than the Jews. Further, it does not challenge my assertion that, as the Leviticus text clearly asserts - the Law of Moses functions to set the nation of Israel apart from other nations.

You have not addressed the essence of my argument. The Leviticus text, if not others, clearly indicates that the Law of Moses functions, at least in part, to set the Jew apart from the Gentile.

And that is precisely why the writer of Ephesians certainly refers to the Law of Moses when he refers to the abolition of an unnamed law as effecting the unification of Jew and Gentile.

The Law of Moses was a barrier - we know this from words put in the mouth of God in Leviticus 20, if not elsewhere.

 

[childeye]

Look at the beginning of the verse and the writer is making a clear distinction between the customized and the uncustomized group. The Jew and Gentile. Pentecost and Peter's vision is so prevalent here, and both speak to the thought of the day. Judaism was teaching, and of which Peter was guilty of at one point, Gentiles were unclean and had to convert to being a Jew to merit salvation. That is the very fabric and substance of many of the Epistles and the issues being addressed for each region.

This may be so, but it does not address my argument. Unless you are saying - and no person familiar with the Old Testament should say this - that the Law of Moses as specified by God did not split humanity into two groups. It certainly did! And its not a man-made distinction, its a God-decreed distinction:

You are therefore to make a distinction between the clean animal and the unclean, and between the unclean bird and the clean; and you shall not make [o]yourselves detestable by animal or by bird or by anything [p]that creeps on the ground, which I have separated for you as unclean. 26 Thus you are to be holy to Me, for I the Lord am holy; and I have set you apart from the peoples to be Mine

I suspect, repeat suspect, that you are trying to argue that the "genuine" Law of Moses did not function to split humanity into two groups. I am quite confident that position simply cannot work. From the rest of your post, it does appear that this is what you are trying to say. I am confident there are many texts that show that this simply cannot work - God clearly intends the Law of Moses to, among other things perhaps, distinguish the Jew from the Gentile. And this is precisely why the abolition of the Law of Moses is precisely what would unite Jew and Gentile.

Yes, it might seem to us that God should never set aside the Jew from the Gentile and give a special law and special promises. But what seems "right" to us is not the prime consideration - the prime consideration is what the Bible says.

Deuteronomy 4:5 “See, I have taught you statutes and judgments just as the Lord my God commanded me, that you should do thus in the land where you are entering to possess it. 6 So keep and do them, for that is your wisdom and your understanding in the sight of the peoples who will hear all these statutes and say, ‘Surely this great nation is a wise and understanding people.’ 7 For what great nation is there that has a god so near to it as is the Lord our God whenever we call on Him? 8 Or what great nation is there that has statutes and judgments as righteous as this whole law which I am setting before you today?

God's laws, if carried out properly, were to be a shining light for all the other nations. Think about it, no idolatry, no paganism, no sacrificing people, caring for the disadvantaged, not marrying certain groups of people, and above all, having Yahweh on your side, so yes this was supposed to keep them distinct. Not only to protect them sin and calamity, but also to drive the nations to jealousy. Which brings me to the next point.

We as believers are called out to act and behave in a way radically different from the rest of society. By how we act and treat people should be a testimony that we serve Jesus and he is the centre of our life. We cannot be part of the world, but we are to share our testimony with others so they could be part of this distinct group, God's peculiar treasure. A light to the world is what God calls us to be, as well as what he had called Israel to be. But sometimes, we fail miserably.

Key phrase - God's Laws!

The Laws that were kept that established them as a nation through Abraham.

They began as a nation with Abraham.

Abraham walked with God in Covenant relationship, thereby obeying His Voice.

God's Law to Abraham was - Now the Lord had said to Abram: "Get out of your country, From your family And from your father's house, To a land that I will show you.

There will be no great nation if Abraham does not - Get out of his country.

Where is the Law of Moses in - Get out of your country...

Without hearing the Voice of God, there will be no faith to get out of his country to a land that I will show you.

2 I will make you a great nation; I will bless you And make your name great; And you shall be a blessing.

The Lord desires relationship, in which you hear His Voice, that gives you faith, to do what He tells you to do.

That is the foundation of Covenant relationship.

When you walk with God in relationship He Himself will teach you His Laws, statutes and you hear His Voice and obey His commands.

Judaism teaches you must learn the Law in a synagog and are concerned with all the requirements of mans traditions about the synagog and the rabbi and the law of Moses and the all the religious things that keep you chasing your tail with an endless list of rules.

Not so with the example left to us in the scriptures by Abraham.

Abraham had a living relationship with the Lord as The Lord intended in the garden with Adam.

A life of purpose with The Lord.

Without hearing His Voice there will be no faith.

Without faith it is impossible to please God.

Faith does not come from reading the Logos.

Faith comes by hearing the Rhema.

The law is not of faith.


JLB

JLB. I've read this post and post #850. I've also read where you pointed out that we have no need of any teachers. I would dare say that you are one that either believes God exists or He doesn't, no in betweens. And by this I mean that you go directly to God to get what you need. Hence upon only seeking to hear His Voice you have no need for laws nor teachers unless God tells you otherwise. For what it's worth, it seems safe to assume that you definitively believe in Him and seek no other means to find God, save of course His Christ, which of course is also Him.

 

[JLB]

JLB. I've read this post and post #850. I've also read where you pointed out that we have no need of any teachers

You absolutely couldn't be more wrong.

We will always learn many wonderful insights from God's word.

The examples from the lives of those lived out in the Old testament.

All those truths are just as relevant for us today.

as it is written -

Moreover, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through the sea, 2 all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, 3 all ate the same spiritual food, 4 and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ. 5 But with most of them God was not well pleased, for their bodies were scattered in the wilderness. 6 Now these things became our examples, to the intent that we should not lust after evil things as they also lusted. 1 Corinthians 10:1-6

How to you just make the JUMP to the conclusion that I somehow don't think we need all of God's word?

I don't believe we need to keep the Law of Moses which is 613 requirements that were nailed to the cross.

I do believe we can learn from all of God's word.

for it is written -

All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,.

That is a big difference than trying to keep the law of Moses!

I copied post 850 for you. Please show me where I said "we don't need any teachers".

Thanks JLB

 

[childeye]

JLB. I've read this post and post #850. I've also read where you pointed out that we have no need of any teachers

You absolutely couldn't be more wrong.

We will always learn many wonderful insights from God's word.

The examples from the lives of those lived out in the Old testament.

All those truths are just as relevant for us today.

as it is written -

Moreover, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through the sea, 2 all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, 3 all ate the same spiritual food, 4 and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ. 5 But with most of them God was not well pleased, for their bodies were scattered in the wilderness. 6 Now these things became our examples, to the intent that we should not lust after evil things as they also lusted. 1 Corinthians 10:1-6

How to you just make the JUMP to the conclusion that I somehow don't think we need all of God's word?

I don't believe we need to keep the Law of Moses which is 613 requirements that were nailed to the cross.

I do believe we can learn from all of God's word.

for it is written -

All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,.

That is a big difference than trying to keep the law of Moses!

I copied post 850 for you. Please show me where I said "we don't need any teachers".

Thanks JLB

Actually, when I mentioned having no need of teachers I was refering to scripture you pointed out. This is in Jethro Bodine's response to one of your other posts, not to post #850. His response is post #843. In his response he included your use of these scriptures, 1 John 2:27 and also Jeremiah 31:31-34. I assumed since you supplied those scriptures, it is what you believed. If I may say, I think you misunderstand me. God uses scripture to teach, but not without the Holy Spirit's revealing guidance. The holy Spirit is also the voice of God, since he testifies to both the Father and the Son..

 

[JLB]

I assumed since you supplied those scriptures, it is what you believed. If I may say, I think you misunderstand me. God uses scripture to teach, but not without the Holy Spirit's revealing guidance. The holy Spirit is also the voice of God, since he testifies to both the Father and the Son..

It is my belief that the Anointing is the teacher.

It is my belief the The Lord is the Teacher, as in the beginning.

It is my belief that Abraham,was taught and walked in, and therefore kept God's Laws and precepts and statutes because he learned them from the Lord, not the law of Moses which was 430 years later.

I believe that we need Apostles, Prophets, Evangelists ,Pastors and Teachers who have come to the fullness and the stature of a perfect Man, who then can equip us to do the same.

This is the work of "being fruitful and multiplying" as it was commanded in the beginning.

However, the problem we have today is, The Church is multiplying "un-fruitfulness".

What that means is in short is: Nobody is reproducing Christ in disciples.

A bad tree can not produce good fruit.

God wants to see His Son reproduced in us.

So that the knowledge of the glory of The Lord will cover the Earth as the waters covers the sea.

JLB

 

[Mitspa]

"You need no man teach you" I must say I have heard much teaching and tried to study as many and as much of the best teachers I could find. But I always knew very soon after I started to hear or read a certain teacher, if the Holy Spirit was teaching me with that mans words? Most of my biblical understanding did not come from other men or teachers, but from the process of reading over and over the scriptures and asking the Holy Spirit questions. What do you mean that the strength of sin is the law?? That I must become a fool to be made wise?? The mystery of godliness is hidden for those who will be honest with God and trust the Holy Spirit to teach them. But when one has it? MORE WILL BE GIVEN.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Ok this is the second time I have asked you to list the requirements in the Law of Moses that you believe I as a Christian should keep.

Until you or anyone can give me a list of requirements in the Law of Moses I should keep, then that means you don't know yourself.

Oy vey, haven't you read even a few of my posts about the law? You don't have to, that's not what I'm saying, but I thought maybe you'd have seen the references to the law that even the NT writers make that I have pointed out in more than one post.

But anyway, assuming you mean literally keep, we can start here in Deuteronomy 5:

7 ‘You shall have no other gods before Me.

8 ‘You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth. 9 You shall not worship them or serve them...

11 ‘You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain, for the Lord will not leave him unpunished who takes His name in vain.

16 ‘Honor your father and your mother...

17 ‘You shall not murder.

18 ‘You shall not commit adultery.

19 ‘You shall not steal.

20 ‘You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.

21 ‘You shall not covet your neighbor’s wife...

...you shall not desire your neighbor’s house, his field or his male servant or his female servant, his ox or his donkey or anything that belongs to your neighbor.’

Do you think that we should pick out the laws that we want to keep from the law of Moses.

You can keep whatever law you want that accords with mercy and love. So I'd prolly skip the 'eye for an eye' thing...unless you think you're good enough to be judged that way yourself.

Do you think we should just keep the feasts.

Why just the feasts? I thought you would ask should we just keep the laws of love for others.

You are free to observe the feasts...as long as it's not for the purpose of trying to be justified by that observance. And it's meaningless to keep just the feasts and not the moral laws of how to treat one another. That's actually one of the problems the Jews had with their law keeping.

Or is it the thou shall not's in the law of Moses that a Christian should keep?

The 'Thou shalts' are okay, too.

Lots and lots of choices.

But not to hard to discern when you see the law through New Covenant eyes and understand what the guiding principle and summation of the law is.

How about this from the original Apostles and Elders in Jerusalem, together with the Holy Spirit -

Since we have heard that some who went out from us have troubled you with words, unsettling your souls, saying, "You must be circumcised and keep the law"--to whom we gave no such commandment-- 25 it seemed good to us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men to you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, 26 men who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. 27 We have therefore sent Judas and Silas, who will also report the same things by word of mouth. 28 For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things: 29 that you abstain from things offered to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from sexual immorality. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well. Farewell. Acts 15:24-29

Why don't you just say what they said, if I asked you.

Do you believe what they said here in Acts.

Why all the drama.

I'm okay with this judgment passed down, with the approval of the Holy Spirit, for the purpose it was given.

[/B]Why not answer my question about which part of Moses Law should i keep with a simple cut and paste from scripture -

JLB here is the part of Mose Law I believe you should keep -

28 For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things: 29 that you abstain from things offered to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from sexual immorality.

Simple.

JLB

Simple for the purpose they were given. But of course there is much more that love upholds in the law. It obviously is not the sum total of laws that were to be kept. I doubt the Holy Spirit would approve of leaving 'do not murder', and 'do not covet' out of a complete list of commandments.