When did the Law pass or has it passed away?

[John 8:32]

Help me to understand how what you are saying relates to The law of Moses passing away.

I will try. Help me by walking in agreement if only but for a moment.

Starting simply, did our Jesus pass away? Yes, we know he did. Then what about the law? Did it also pass? Yes, it also did.
So then, back to our Lord? Was He raised and may we also be raised in the newness of life? Will our baptism in his death as symbolized by our water immersion be surpassed by what happens as we rise to the newness of life? Will the law, that works into us the will but does not establish or point to any way, except where it points to Jesus as The Way, work in us too? May we know that the law was designed to bring us to Jesus where there is life? Can stone give life? Or is life in the blood? Is power in the stone, or is it in the blood? Is there power in the Gift of God to us? There is. We are not abandoned by the one who states, "I shall never leave nor forsake you," we are risen even today as we join ourselves into the Life of our Risen Lord.

Hope this helps. I don't disagree with you but then again, I don't disagree with others who may give the appearance that they do disagree with you. All are joined in the Body of Christ and all are given life even as we lift each other up to our God who grants life and pray the we become more and more of what He wants in us and for us, that we become more like Him. This is the way eternal that I hear you preach.

Starting simply, did our Jesus pass away? Yes, we know he did. Then what about the law? Did it also pass? Yes, it also did.

The law of Moses has passed away. We are in agreement.

JLB

Why don't you tell that to Christ?

Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Mat 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Apparently, He did not get the memo.

 

[Sinthesis]

Why shouldn't the law of Moses pass away? What possible reason would require that we reject that it should pass away?

 

[JLB]

Starting simply, did our Jesus pass away? Yes, we know he did. Then what about the law? Did it also pass? Yes, it also did.

The law of Moses has passed away. We are in agreement.

JLB

Why don't you tell that to Christ?

Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Mat 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Apparently, He did not get the memo.

Well we know Jesus fulfilled the Law, the prophets and the Psalms.

Contained within the Torah we have the Abrahamic Covenant.

The Law of Moses was "added" to the Abrahamic Covenant until the Seed should come.


JLB

 

[turnorburn]

This has probably been said..

Galatians 3:21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

tob

 

[Sparkey]

I will try. Help me by walking in agreement if only but for a moment.

Starting simply, did our Jesus pass away? Yes, we know he did. Then what about the law? Did it also pass? Yes, it also did.

The law of Moses has passed away. We are in agreement.

JLB

Why don't you tell that to Christ?
... [Mat 5:17-19] ...
Apparently, He did not get the memo.

I don't disagree with you but then again, I don't disagree with others who may give the appearance that they do disagree with you.

I spoke in a manner that was designed to elicit agreement. I spoke so that we could walk together but for a moment. Now comes the challenge because I believe that God does not change. I do change and need to change, but He does not. So then, has that schoolmaster that tob speaks of been made to be of no import?

24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

In Romans (which I know, we all know, and are in our own rights expert on) we see Paul as "carnal" from Romans, chapter seven and verses 9-25.

Romans 7:9-25:

Paul is:​

• Carnal
• A slave to sin
• Constantly struggling with the sinful appetites of the flesh
• In Bondage to doing wrong

Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am CARNAL, SOLD UNDER SIN. my thought: . o O (was Paul an Enemy of God?)
Rom 7:15,17 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I. Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Rom 7:18-19 ..I know that in me (that is, IN MY FLESH,) dwelleth no good thing; for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
Rom 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

And to this word must we also contrast and compare what is seen in that same book, that same writing, that same author, the Holy Spirit through Paul. We must compare it because it is 'sandwiched' between Romans chapter six and Romans chapter eight:

Romans 6 & 8 (context of Ch. 7)

Paul is:​

• Spiritual as opposed to carnal
• Free from sin as opposed to a slave to sin
• Dead to the flesh and its sinful appetites
• In freedom to doing right

Rom 8:6-7 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the CARNAL MIND IS ENMITY [ENEMY] AGAINST GOD.
Rom 6:1-2 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we [Paul includes himself here], that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
Rom 8:8-9 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. But YE ARE NOT IN THE FLESH, but in the Spirit...

Rom 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, YE SHALL DIE: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.​

Rom 6:15-16 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

So then now we come back to my statement that I address as I state that what is done here by me is a crafted and designed manner of addressing each of those here, in such a way as to encourage agreement while we walk together as we are each able.

The reason that I do this is because I honestly believe that each of us are messages, even "epistles" written by God and that we are read and known of men. Yes! We all need to be held up to the "more sure word of Prophecy," which is the Holy and Living Word of God, and yes we all know for a fact that all shall be judged. Every word, every thought and every act shall be given an accounting for. Knowing this and knowing that God deals with each, according to their maturity and according to where they are at the moment, and also according to where He calls them unto - so also must we understand and know the for one brother, it is okay, to do what his conscience pricks him about and because there may be darkness in that particular part of his heart (my heart) I may rely on the law as my guide in that darkened (for now) spot within me.

I very well may need to look at what is clearly spoken in the law and see, for instance, how I am to treat the stranger who is in my gate and to recall that I too have been a stranger, walking in a strange land and that even today, my spirit is sheathed in flesh and I am not a person of this world although I am in it, so my actions toward strangers who rely on me must reflect God's Heart, as expressed in His Law, Yes! And also it is my prayer that the Lord continue to work with me and more fully express His will toward "strangers" so that I may see how Jesus, The Christ also acted and then change me according.

He works in me both the will and the way. The law is a guide. The lamp and the light unto the path (which is The Christ that the Law brings me to in maturity). This is done so that Jesus may be seen to be all in all. Yesterday, Today and Tomorrow. The one who matures me toward completeness that I may not be found wanting in any good thing.

 

[cupid dave]

cupid dave


And, the word, Truth, was added, likewise, "to the covenant that God made with Abraham."



Sorry, I am not following you.

Please give me a scripture for what you are referring to so I can track with you.

?
"I am the Truth, the way, the life"....

The son was the physical personified ideal Truth, and the holy spirit is that mental state-of-mind when in the spirit of Truth we admit to it and live life in a way that abides in what is true.

1 Peter 1:22
Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:

Here Peter says what I have told you, that the sum of the Torah, that we love God and one another, is fulfilled when we obey the spirit of Truth unto unfeigned love of the brethren.

 

[John 8:32]

Starting simply, did our Jesus pass away? Yes, we know he did. Then what about the law? Did it also pass? Yes, it also did.

The law of Moses has passed away. We are in agreement.

JLB

Why don't you tell that to Christ?

Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Mat 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Apparently, He did not get the memo.

Well we know Jesus fulfilled the Law, the prophets and the Psalms.

Contained within the Torah we have the Abrahamic Covenant.

The Law of Moses was "added" to the Abrahamic Covenant until the Seed should come.


JLB

Paul should have been informed...

Act 28:21 They and to him said: We neither letters concerning thee received from the Judea, neither having come any one of the brethren related or spoken anything concerning thee evil.
Act 28:22 we deem proper but from thee to hear, what thou thinkest; concerning indeed for of the sect this known is to us, that everywhere it is spoken against.
Act 28:23 Having appointed and to him a day, came to him to the lodging many; to whom he set forth testifying earnestly the kingdom of the God, persuading and them the things concerning the Jesus, from both the law of Moses and of the prophets, from morning till evening.

Hmmm, at the end of his life after he had written his epistles, just before his martyrdom he was still referring to the Law of Moses.

 

[cupid dave]

Posted by Sparrowhawke








Originally Posted by John 8:32


Jesus overrules?



Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.



That statement is in the context of what Christ said.

Yes.
He said, "I am the Truth."

Truth is the authority over mankind which exists and adapts to the every changing Reality by recognizing what is true and avoiding the lies that threaten his eternal existence.

 

[Sparkey]

holy spirit is that mental state-of-mind

The Ruach HaKodesh, the Spirit Holy, is more than a 'mental state-of-mind' but otherwise, yes. The Holy Spirit is from God and is God. Yes, the angels (messengers) may also work in these things. So also may you, cupid dave, as you respond to the Holy Spirit in accordance to the Will of God as stated in the Living Word we know as the Bible, which when we hear and accept and act upon it, is the seed that is planted in us, the seed that grows and when found in 'good soil' is not trampled, eaten by birds, crushed or strangled by the cares of life. Blessed are the feet of them who come with the good news that unto Jesus, The Christ, has been given all authority and all power, so that by His blood and by the testimony of our mouths, saints may be fitly joined into the Body of Christ, our Lamb of God.

He (who is Jesus, the Christ) is also our Advocate and Paraclete, who intercedes for us and continues closer than a brother with us as we continue with him in the journey to the land promised in the Holy Word. It is a journey from glory to Glory and as long as 'today is called today' it may be seen that we are all invited. "Come," says the Bride and "Come," says the Spirit. And let him who hear it say, "Come." Rev 22:17

Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.

That statement is in the context of what Christ said.

Yes.

Yes! And here then is the context: Jesus was worshiped.

Matthew 28:16-18
16 Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. 17 When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. 18 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.”

 

[JLB]

Why don't you tell that to Christ?

Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Mat 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Apparently, He did not get the memo.

Well we know Jesus fulfilled the Law, the prophets and the Psalms.

Contained within the Torah we have the Abrahamic Covenant.

The Law of Moses was "added" to the Abrahamic Covenant until the Seed should come.


JLB

Paul should have been informed...

Act 28:21 They and to him said: We neither letters concerning thee received from the Judea, neither having come any one of the brethren related or spoken anything concerning thee evil.
Act 28:22 we deem proper but from thee to hear, what thou thinkest; concerning indeed for of the sect this known is to us, that everywhere it is spoken against.
Act 28:23 Having appointed and to him a day, came to him to the lodging many; to whom he set forth testifying earnestly the kingdom of the God, persuading and them the things concerning the Jesus, from both the law of Moses and of the prophets, from morning till evening.

Hmmm, at the end of his life after he had written his epistles, just before his martyrdom he was still referring to the Law of Moses.

Paul is referring to Jesus, not the law of Moses.

44 Then He said to them, "These are the words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things must be fulfilled which were written in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms concerning Me." Luke 24:44

Jesus fulfilled the Law and the Prophets and the Psalms, so of course they speak of Him.


JLB

 

[cupid dave]

The law of Moses has passed away. We are in agreement.

JLB

If that were true, how does one explain away the direct statement:


Matthew 5:18
For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Where Christian go wrong on this issue is they fail to separate the early church into a small Gentile congregation and an initial much larger Jewish group of believers in Christ.

For the Jews, the ritual and the Law was to continue, and they were merely adding onto to a Judaism which was evolving into a larger concept that previously understood.
But for the Gentile Christians, the Law required only that they obey the seven Noachide Laws.

TheChildren of Noah are the Gentiles, comprising the seventy nations of the world.They are commanded concerning the Seven Universal Laws, also known as the SevenLaws of the Children of Noah or the Seven Noachide Laws.

TheseSeven Universal Laws pertain to:

1)Avodah Zarah: Prohibition on idolatry.
2)Birchat HaShem: Prohibition on blasphemy and cursing the Name of G-d.
3)Shefichat Damim: Prohibition on murder.
4)Gezel: Prohibition on robbery and theft.
5)Gilui Arayot: Prohibition on immorality and forbidden sexual relations.
6)Ever Min HaChay: Prohibition on removing and eating a limb from a live animal.
7)Dinim: Requirement to establish a justice system and courts of law to enforcethe other 6 laws.
Menand women are equal in their responsibility to observe the Seven UniversalLaws.


Whena Gentile resolves to fulfill the Seven Universal Laws, his or her soul iselevated. This person becomes one of the "Chasidei Umot Haolam"(Pious Ones of the Nations) and receives a share of the World to Come.

 

[cupid dave]

Well we know Jesus fulfilled the Law, the prophets and the Psalms.

This is another Christian mis-statement based upon a very loose assumption about what one verse might mean.

Christ fulfilled the PROPHECY of the Torah or Law, as it is called by the Jews.
That prophecy was Deuteronomy 18:18:

18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.

Deuteronomy 18 had said God would send a prophet like Moses, a miracle worker, one who walks on water, one who speaks with god for 40 days and forty nights in the wilderness, etc.


Deuteronomy 9:18
And I fell down before the Lord, as at the first, forty days and forty nights: I did neither eat bread, nor drink water, because of all your sins which ye sinned, in doing wickedly in the sight of the Lord, to provoke him to anger.

Matthew 4:2 And when he had fasted forty days and forty nights, he was afterward an hungred.

 

[JLB]

Where Christian go wrong on this issue is they fail to separate the early church into a small Gentile congregation and an initial much larger Jewish group of believers in Christ.

9 Do not lie to one another, since you have put off the old man with his deeds, 10 and have put on the new man who is renewed in knowledge according to the image of Him who created him, 11 where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcised nor uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave nor free, but Christ is all and in all. Colossians 3:9-11

Why would a Jew after the flesh be expected to keep the law of Moses when in Christ there is neither Jew nor Greek?

and again -

There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. Galatians 3:28

For Abraham walk with God and kept His Commandments and laws 430 years before the law of Moses.

So your comment about "continuing in Judaism" is totally inaccurate.

This practice was done by few misguided Jews that tried to impose the law of Moses onto gentiles, because they themselves did not understand that the law of Moses was "taken away" at the cross, and the New Covenant established in its place.

9 then He said, "Behold, I have come to do Your will, O God." He takes away the first that He may establish the second. Hebrews 10:9

and again -

13 In that He says, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away. Hebrews 8:13

Taken away, Vanished away.

For the law of Moses was "added' till the Seed should come. Galatians 3:19


JLB

 

[JLB]

Christ fulfilled the PROPHECY of the Torah or Law, as it is called by the Jews. That prophecy was Deuteronomy 18:18:

As well as all the Law and the Prophets and the Psalms that spoke of Him.

All the prophecies concerning the Messiah as the Seed of the woman and being crucified for our sins have been fulfilled.


JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

JLB,

The requirements of the law of Moses did not pass away. The literal fulfillment for temple, priest, and sacrifice for sin, and various exclusionary laws are what 'passed away' and are now obsolete. Not abolished, but laws for literal fulfillments that simply do not apply to new creations in Christ, and are fulfilled through faith in Christ. Hardly what some insist is an abolishment of those laws.

As I've shown you, various requirements of the law of Moses were indeed being taught in the early church, and not just to Jews, but gentile congregations, too. From the inspired scriptures of the NT we see the Holy Spirit is in fact writing the requirements of Moses on the hearts of God's people. Don't confuse how those requirements get fulfilled in this New Covenant with those requirements somehow being abolished.

When talking about what 'passed away' in the law of Moses you have to be specific about what that means, and about what did 'pass away' (not abolished) because it is very wrong to broad stroke the argument as the law of Moses completely and totally passing away as if abolished. Simply not true as I've proven to you from the scriptures. We see Paul, John, and James all teaching requirements of the law of Moses through the inspiration, the voice, of the Holy Spirit to multitudes of God's people, Jew and gentile alike, through the centuries. It simply can not be honestly denied.

 

[JLB]

JLB,

The requirements of the law of Moses did not pass away. The literal fulfillment for temple, priest, and sacrifice for sin, and various exclusionary laws are what 'passed away' and are now obsolete. Not abolished, but laws for literal fulfillments that simply do not apply to new creations in Christ, and are fulfilled through faith in Christ. Hardly what some insist is an abolishment of those laws.

As I've shown you, various requirements of the law of Moses were indeed being taught in the early church, and not just to Jews, but gentile congregations, too. From the inspired scriptures of the NT we see the Holy Spirit is in fact writing the requirements of Moses on the hearts of God's people. Don't confuse how those requirements get fulfilled in this New Covenant with those requirements somehow being abolished.

When talking about what 'passed away' in the law of Moses you have to be specific about what that means, and about what did 'pass away' (not abolished) because it is very wrong to broad stroke the argument as the law of Moses completely and totally passing away as if abolished. Simply not true as I've proven to you from the scriptures. We see Paul, John, and James all teaching requirements of the law of Moses through the inspiration, the voice, of the Holy Spirit to multitudes of God's people, Jew and gentile alike, through the centuries. It simply can not be honestly denied.

Thank you for your commentary. edited
18 For on the one hand there is an annulling of the former commandment because of its weakness and unprofitableness, 19 for the law made nothing perfect; on the other hand, there is the bringing in of a better hope, through which we draw near to God. Hebrews 7:18-19

what part of the law? The Law!

and again -

In that He says, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away. Hebrews 8:13

What part of the Covenant? The Covenant!

and again -

8 the Holy Spirit indicating this, that the way into the Holiest of All was not yet made manifest while the first tabernacle was still standing. 9 It was symbolic for the present time in which both gifts and sacrifices are offered which cannot make him who performed the service perfect in regard to the conscience-- 10 concerned only with foods and drinks, various washings, and fleshly ordinances imposed until the time of reformation. 11 But Christ came as High Priest of the good things to come, with the greater and more perfect tabernacle not made with hands, that is, not of this creation. 12 Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with His own blood He entered the Most Holy Place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption. Hebrews 9:8-12

and again -

9 then He said, "Behold, I have come to do Your will, O God." He takes away the first that He may establish the second. Hebrews 10:9


Not my words, but the words of the Holy Spirit through the writer of the book of Hebrews.

The result of the meeting in Jerusalem with all the Apostles, Elders and the Holy Spirit -

24 Since we have heard that some who went out from us have troubled you with words, unsettling your souls, saying, "You must be circumcised and keep the law"--to whom we gave no such commandment-- Acts 15:24

You must be circumcised and keep the law. We gave no such commandment.

Keep what part of the Law? The Law!

Don't you think we should at least circumcise? NO!


JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

JLB,

The requirements of the law of Moses did not pass away. The literal fulfillment for temple, priest, and sacrifice for sin, and various exclusionary laws are what 'passed away' and are now obsolete. Not abolished, but laws for literal fulfillments that simply do not apply to new creations in Christ, and are fulfilled through faith in Christ. Hardly what some insist is an abolishment of those laws.

As I've shown you, various requirements of the law of Moses were indeed being taught in the early church, and not just to Jews, but gentile congregations, too. From the inspired scriptures of the NT we see the Holy Spirit is in fact writing the requirements of Moses on the hearts of God's people. Don't confuse how those requirements get fulfilled in this New Covenant with those requirements somehow being abolished.

When talking about what 'passed away' in the law of Moses you have to be specific about what that means, and about what did 'pass away' (not abolished) because it is very wrong to broad stroke the argument as the law of Moses completely and totally passing away as if abolished. Simply not true as I've proven to you from the scriptures. We see Paul, John, and James all teaching requirements of the law of Moses through the inspiration, the voice, of the Holy Spirit to multitudes of God's people, Jew and gentile alike, through the centuries. It simply can not be honestly denied.

Thank you for your commentary. It sounds very nice, however it just doesn't line up with the scriptures.

18 For on the one hand there is an annulling of the former commandment because of its weakness and unprofitableness, 19 for the law made nothing perfect; on the other hand, there is the bringing in of a better hope, through which we draw near to God. Hebrews 7:18-19

what part of the law? The Law!

and again -

In that He says, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away. Hebrews 8:13

What part of the Covenant? The Covenant!

and again -

8 the Holy Spirit indicating this, that the way into the Holiest of All was not yet made manifest while the first tabernacle was still standing. 9 It was symbolic for the present time in which both gifts and sacrifices are offered which cannot make him who performed the service perfect in regard to the conscience-- 10 concerned only with foods and drinks, various washings, and fleshly ordinances imposed until the time of reformation. 11 But Christ came as High Priest of the good things to come, with the greater and more perfect tabernacle not made with hands, that is, not of this creation. 12 Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with His own blood He entered the Most Holy Place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption. Hebrews 9:8-12

and again -

9 then He said, "Behold, I have come to do Your will, O God." He takes away the first that He may establish the second. Hebrews 10:9


Not my words, but the words of the Holy Spirit through the writer of the book of Hebrews.

The result of the meeting in Jerusalem with all the Apostles, Elders and the Holy Spirit -

24 Since we have heard that some who went out from us have troubled you with words, unsettling your souls, saying, "You must be circumcised and keep the law"--to whom we gave no such commandment-- Acts 15:24

You must be circumcised and keep the law. We gave no such commandment.

Keep what part of the Law? The Law!

Don't you think we should at least circumcise? NO!


JLB

The indoctrination that holds the church fast in her ignorance of the law causes so many to think the law of Moses was only the literal stipulations for worship (Feasts, sacrifices, etc.), those things that really have been set aside in regard to their literal fulfillment because they no longer HAVE to be done to do what faith in Christ now does perfectly, one time, and forever. But the law of Moses was much more than that. But if you don't know that you may well believe the foolish indoctrination in the church that insists the law of Moses has been altogether abolished.

If you would set your indoctrination aside and read the context of Hebrews you'd see that what got set aside as obsolete, not abolished, are the literal stipulations for worship, not the requirements of the law themselves. You're guilty of not dividing the Word of God correctly by broad stroking the setting aside of the law in Hebrews as obsolete and not needed anymore as meaning all requirements of the law of Moses have been abolished. That is ridiculous and proven from the NT to be utterly false.

The example of the law of the oxen is really what you have to overcome to defend your doctrine. Here we have a law of Moses, written "for us", the requirements of which are being taught to gentile Christians, outside of Israel, and being fulfilled (kept, satisfied, etc.) in the new way of the Spirit. In complete and utter contradiction to everything you've been saying about the law of Moses.

It wasn't abolished. It's for gentiles, too. And it's being taught to us to be upheld by faith in Christ working through love. But you say the law has been abolished. That is hardly an example of that. What you need to be saying is the literal obligation of the old covenant worship laws concerning temple, priest, and sacrifice is what is now obsolete and no longer HAS to be kept in order to be in covenant with God, but which is now clearly upheld and fulfilled through faith in Christ. You have to be specific. The church has been just plain wrong to say that the requirements of the law of Moses have been abolished altogether.

And as far as circumcision goes. You're the one who has to explain, according to your doctrine, why it 'passed away', yet falls in the category of laws you say haven't passed away because they are eternal and before Moses.

The argument is defeated by not saying the Sabbath observance, and circumcision aren't abolished because they are eternal and before Moses like you say about other laws in the law of Moses, like 'love your neighbor as yourself'. The reasons for the law of Moses being 'abolished' don't hold up to scrutiny since they don't apply evenly. That reason you give for the law of Moses being abolished simply does not hold water.

 

[Sparkey]

Camels and gnats, gentlemen. Camels and gnats. Let's not speak too much about "guilt" and personal observation directed at the man and not toward the subject under discussion.

MODERATOR: Friendly reminder of the ToS; not given necessarily to the more recent, nor the furthest removed, neither proximate nor distal but general and only as applicable to one and all.

 

[JLB]

JLB,

The requirements of the law of Moses did not pass away. The literal fulfillment for temple, priest, and sacrifice for sin, and various exclusionary laws are what 'passed away' and are now obsolete. Not abolished, but laws for literal fulfillments that simply do not apply to new creations in Christ, and are fulfilled through faith in Christ. Hardly what some insist is an abolishment of those laws.

As I've shown you, various requirements of the law of Moses were indeed being taught in the early church, and not just to Jews, but gentile congregations, too. From the inspired scriptures of the NT we see the Holy Spirit is in fact writing the requirements of Moses on the hearts of God's people. Don't confuse how those requirements get fulfilled in this New Covenant with those requirements somehow being abolished.

When talking about what 'passed away' in the law of Moses you have to be specific about what that means, and about what did 'pass away' (not abolished) because it is very wrong to broad stroke the argument as the law of Moses completely and totally passing away as if abolished. Simply not true as I've proven to you from the scriptures. We see Paul, John, and James all teaching requirements of the law of Moses through the inspiration, the voice, of the Holy Spirit to multitudes of God's people, Jew and gentile alike, through the centuries. It simply can not be honestly denied.

Thank you for your commentary.

18 For on the one hand there is an annulling of the former commandment because of its weakness and unprofitableness, 19 for the law made nothing perfect; on the other hand, there is the bringing in of a better hope, through which we draw near to God. Hebrews 7:18-19

what part of the law? The Law!

and again -

In that He says, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away. Hebrews 8:13

What part of the Covenant? The Covenant!

and again -

8 the Holy Spirit indicating this, that the way into the Holiest of All was not yet made manifest while the first tabernacle was still standing. 9 It was symbolic for the present time in which both gifts and sacrifices are offered which cannot make him who performed the service perfect in regard to the conscience-- 10 concerned only with foods and drinks, various washings, and fleshly ordinances imposed until the time of reformation. 11 But Christ came as High Priest of the good things to come, with the greater and more perfect tabernacle not made with hands, that is, not of this creation. 12 Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with His own blood He entered the Most Holy Place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption. Hebrews 9:8-12

and again -

9 then He said, "Behold, I have come to do Your will, O God." He takes away the first that He may establish the second. Hebrews 10:9


Not my words, but the words of the Holy Spirit through the writer of the book of Hebrews.

The result of the meeting in Jerusalem with all the Apostles, Elders and the Holy Spirit -

24 Since we have heard that some who went out from us have troubled you with words, unsettling your souls, saying, "You must be circumcised and keep the law"--to whom we gave no such commandment-- Acts 15:24

You must be circumcised and keep the law. We gave no such commandment.

Keep what part of the Law? The Law!

Don't you think we should at least circumcise? NO!


JLB

The indoctrination that holds the church fast in her ignorance of the law causes so many to think the law of Moses was only the literal stipulations for worship (Feasts, sacrifices, etc.), those things that really have been set aside in regard to their literal fulfillment because they no longer HAVE to be done to do what faith in Christ now does perfectly, one time, and forever. But the law of Moses was much more than that. But if you don't know that you may well believe the foolish indoctrination in the church that insists the law of Moses has been altogether abolished.

If you would set your indoctrination aside and read the context of Hebrews you'd see that what got set aside as obsolete, not abolished, are the literal stipulations for worship, not the requirements of the law themselves. You're guilty of not dividing the Word of God correctly by broad stroking the setting aside of the law in Hebrews as obsolete and not needed anymore as meaning all requirements of the law of Moses have been abolished. That is ridiculous and proven from the NT to be utterly false.

The example of the law of the oxen is really what you have to overcome to defend your doctrine. Here we have a law of Moses, written "for us", the requirements of which are being taught to gentile Christians, outside of Israel, and being fulfilled (kept, satisfied, etc.) in the new way of the Spirit. In complete and utter contradiction to everything you've been saying about the law of Moses.

It wasn't abolished. It's for gentiles, too. And it's being taught to us to be upheld by faith in Christ working through love. But you say the law has been abolished. That is hardly an example of that. What you need to be saying is the literal obligation of the old covenant worship laws concerning temple, priest, and sacrifice is what is now obsolete and no longer HAS to be kept in order to be in covenant with God, but which is now clearly upheld and fulfilled through faith in Christ. You have to be specific. The church has been just plain wrong to say that the requirements of the law of Moses have been abolished altogether.

And as far as circumcision goes. You're the one who has to explain, according to your doctrine, why it 'passed away', yet falls in the category of laws you say haven't passed away because they are eternal and before Moses.

You defeat your very own argument by not saying the Sabbath observance, and circumcision aren't abolished because they are eternal and before Moses like you say about other laws in the law of Moses, like 'love your neighbor as yourself'. Your reasons for the law of Moses being 'abolished' don't hold up to scrutiny since they don't apply evenly. That reason you give for the law of Moses being abolished simply does not hold water.

Which one of the 4 different scriptures above do you not agree with?

1. He takes away the first that He may establish the second. Hebrews 10:9
2. For on the one hand there is an annulling of the former commandment because of its weakness and unprofitableness, Hebrews 7:18
3. In that He says, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away. Hebrews 8:13
4. concerned only with foods and drinks, various washings, and fleshly ordinances imposed until the time of reformation. Hebrews 9:10

Hebrews 7, 8, 9, 10 all deal with this subject and are clear.


Words like annul or obsolete or vanish away are very clear to me, lets discuss these phrases further.


Or this phrase - It was symbolic for the present time in which both gifts and sacrifices are offered which cannot make him who performed the service perfect in regard to the conscience--concerned only with foods and drinks, various washings, and fleshly ordinances imposed until the time of reformation.

Remember, these are the scriptures that the Holy Spirit has given us to lead us and guide into all truth.

The shadows and types and lessons in the law of Moses are beautiful.

We would not have great examples to follow if it were not for them.


However the law of Moses was "taken away", "vanished away", and only applicable until the Seed should come. For they were SYMBOLIC for this present time.

The commandments and laws and precepts that Abraham walked in are what we need to be concerned with today, which teaches us to OBEY is better than sacrifice, and to heed than the fat of Rams.

For if Abraham didn't obey His Voice to get out of His country to a land that God would show him, then where would we be today.



JLB

 

[Deborah13]

The example of the law of the oxen is really what you have to overcome to defend your doctrine. Here we have a law of Moses, written "for us", the requirements of which are being taught to gentile Christians, outside of Israel, and being fulfilled (kept, satisfied, etc.) in the new way of the Spirit. In complete and utter contradiction to everything you've been saying about the law of Moses.

Hi Jethro, would you explain a little more completely what you are saying here. To you...

1. Does the law of Moses mean Torah?
2. How does this teaching fulfill the law of Moses, or Torah if this is what you are saying?
3. How do you see this being fulfilled in "the new way of the Spirit?

Thanks