When does God put souls into bodies?

[JLB]

Please address the OP. Thanks.

The spirit within a person is present at conception, otherwise the person would be dead.

No life or growth of the body without the spirit.

The Human body in it's most conceptual form can not be alive and grow without the spirit within.

For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. James 2:26


There can be no life in a human body without the spirit.

...the body without the spirit is dead.

JLB

 

[Deborah13]

So…everything.
Sure, the soul is where we have thoughts and feelings. But don't equate each other. The thoughts and feelings come from the soul. Not the other way around. They are not equal.

Ah, we are getting somewhere. The thoughts and feelings come from the soul! I agree!!

1Sa_1:15 And Hannah answereth and saith, `No, my lord, A woman sharply pained in spirit [ruach] I am , and wine and strong drink I have not drunk, and I pour out my soul [nephesh] before Yehovah;

Yup! I should have said...
Hannah in spirit was grieved and she told God her thoughts and feelings that poured out from her soul.

As for the rest, you believe what you believe, I believe what I believe.
But if the body cannot live without the spirit, that little being in the womb, no matter what stage of growth it's body is at, cannot live without the spirit. Just thinking about that scripture maybe you should consider what living is?

 

[Gregg]

Gregg,

Have you seen some of the pictures in Abortion and American Holocaust? These are horrific images. I find it hard to understand those who do not see these aborted babies as children whose lives were slaughtered.

Oz

I haven't seen the item you mentioned, but have probably seen many pictures like them.

 

[Deborah13]

Job 33:4 follows the same sequence as found in Gen 2:7. God made him and then gave him life.

I have asked the question to several posters; why did Job say this in 3:11?
“Why did I not die at birth, Come forth from the womb and expire?"

If life begins at conception, why would Job mention birth rather than at conception?

Job 3:11 Why did I not die at birth, Come forth from the womb and expire?

Well the guy was miserable. I doubt he was sitting around contemplating when his life in the womb began. He was just thinking, I wish I had never been born. Job wasn't exactly a poetic man like David or Solomon.

 

[Gregg]

There is no reason to reconsider my view unless one can show from Scripture that God reversed the order for the first and Lasdt Adam from everyone else.

We can agree that the LORD formed a body of flesh for the Son of God, and certainly the Son of God existed before His physical body. But regarding Adam, there is no indication that God created Adam's soul and spirit before creating His body.

So, if true why reverse the order for everyone but the first and Last Adam?

The first and Last Adam are unique to all others. Why reverse the order, and why not reverse the order; I think we may not be able to answer that one. I tend to lean towards the LORD having created our entire being simultaneously - body, soul, and spirit - and that at conception.

This does not prove your claim. 2 fetuses in 1 womb can do that, all from reflexes.

From reflexes, huh? Never mind what Scripture says, "And the sons struggled together within her. And she said, If this is right, why am I this way? And she went to ask Jehovah" (Gen 25:22 LITV).

Did she inquire of the LORD because her two children moved in the womb from reflexes? No, she inquired of the LORD because of the struggle of her two children within her, living children who struggled with one another while yet unborn. The LORD's answer makes it clear that the two brothers struggled even from the womb, "And Jehovah said to her, Two nations are in your womb; even two peoples shall break from your body And one people shall be stronger than the other people; and the elder shall serve the younger" (Gen 25:23 LITV). The LORD and Rebekah were not talking about reflexes.

 

[Deborah13]

I would suggest that being God tells us he is a spirit that his breath is that spirit that then enters the life born into this world. The breath of life.

I agree, that breathe is spirit. When you received the Holy Spirit that indwells you, how do you think He got there?
1Co 6:19 Have ye not known that your body is a sanctuary of the Holy Spirit in you, which ye have from God? and ye are not your own,

 

[FreeGrace]

The spirit within a person is present at conception, otherwise the person would be dead.

This denies physiological life, which is what animals have. And animals have no soul or spirit.

No life or growth of the body without the spirit.

What Scripture backs this up?

The Human body in it's most conceptual form can not be alive and grow without the spirit within.

Simply repeating an opinion does not result in it becoming truth.

For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. James 2:26

Context is everything. He was referring to the definition of "dead", which is when the spirit LEAVES the body.

There can be no life in a human body without the spirit.

Physiological life can be maintained by life support machines after the spirit leaves the body. Yet, the person is still considered dead.

This post did not address WHEN God puts the soul into a body. James 2:26 was used totally out of context.

 

[FreeGrace]

As for the rest, you believe what you believe, I believe what I believe.
But if the body cannot live without the spirit, that little being in the womb, no matter what stage of growth it's body is at, cannot live without the spirit.

Faulty argument, same as another poster's who abused James 2:26 as support for it.

What keeps animals, insects, birds and fish alive? None have a soul/spirit, yet they live, breathe, and procreate. It's called physiological or biological life. And God created that system for reproduction. Gen 1 says so.

On the 4th day, God created aquatic creatures and birds, and told them to "be fruitful and multiply". Clearly He was talking to LIVING creatures. Yet without souls/spirits.

Just thinking about that scripture maybe you should consider what living is?

I've just provided Scripture to PROVE that physiological or biological life is DIFFERENT than soul life.

There is no reason to think that what God formed from the dust of the ground didn't have physiological life.

 

[FreeGrace]

Job 3:11 Why did I not die at birth, Come forth from the womb and expire?

Well the guy was miserable.

Not the point.

I doubt he was sitting around contemplating when his life in the womb began. He was just thinking, I wish I had never been born.

But he never said that. He was speaking after being born by the phrase "come forth from the womb and expire".

Job wasn't exactly a poetic man like David or Solomon.

I fail to see how this is relevant in any way. Job wasn't stupid. He knew when one is considered a human being. Which is when one is born. That's when human being life begins.

If human being life began at conception, he would have so noted.

What he said has nothing to do with poetry or just being "miserable". He knew he wasn't alive in the sense of being a human being until he was born. Which is precisely why he said what he said.

 

[FreeGrace]

We can agree that the LORD formed a body of flesh for the Son of God, and certainly the Son of God existed before His physical body. But regarding Adam, there is no indication that God created Adam's soul and spirit before creating His body.

That wasn't my point. My point is that Gen 2:7 shows that God prepared a body for Adam's soul. Just as God prepared a body for the Last Adam, per Heb 10:5. Of course the Son of God has always existed. That was never an issue. My point was only to show order or sequence. Body before soul goes in. And we see exactly that in the first and Last Adam. So there is no reason to think that God would REVERSE that order or sequence for everyone else.

The first and Last Adam are unique to all others.

The order of body before soul is the only issue.

Why reverse the order, and why not reverse the order; I think we may not be able to answer that one.

Exactly. There is no reason to reverse the order for everyone else. So the "why" cannot be answered.

I tend to lean towards the LORD having created our entire being simultaneously - body, soul, and spirit - and that at conception.

There is no purpose for a fertilized egg to have a soul. Further, Job knew when he became a living human being, which was after "coming forth from the womb", which is when he wished he has expired.

If he thought that human life began at conception, why didn't he wish for a miscarriage or abortion?

From reflexes, huh? Never mind what Scripture says, "And the sons struggled together within her. And she said, If this is right, why am I this way? And she went to ask Jehovah" (Gen 25:22 LITV).

Reflex motility is a reality. And I always mind what Scripture says. [Unnecessary rude remark. ToS 2.4]

Did she inquire of the LORD because her two children moved in the womb from reflexes? No, she inquired of the LORD because of the struggle of her two children within her, living children who struggled with one another while yet unborn.

I think this assumes a whole lot.

The LORD's answer makes it clear that the two brothers struggled even from the womb, "And Jehovah said to her, Two nations are in your womb; even two peoples shall break from your body And one people shall be stronger than the other people; and the elder shall serve the younger" (Gen 25:23 LITV). The LORD and Rebekah were not talking about reflexes.

They were talking about feeling movement in their wombs.

 

[JLB]

This denies physiological life, which is what animals have. And animals have no soul or spirit.

The spirit within a human being is present at conception, otherwise the person would be dead.

A body without the spirit is dead. James 2:26

We are discussing Adam and mankind.

I will not derail this discussion, with speculations and theory's about animals or plants, or any other organisms...

A human being is spirit soul and body, or it is dead.

A dead human being can not grow and develop within it's mothers womb.

What Scripture backs this up?

For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. James 2:26

The body of a growing and developing person within it's mother's womb must be alive to do so.

Simply repeating an opinion does not result in it becoming truth.

So far you have only stated opinion in the face of the scriptures I have presented.

...the body without the spirit is dead. James 2:26

And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.
Genesis 2:7

Adam did not have a body, without a spirit within.

He was simply lifeless dust, until spirit came into him, only then was he declared as "living".

The body without the spirit is dead.

Context is everything. He was referring to the definition of "dead", which is when the spirit LEAVES the body.

The body is what is stated by scripture.

It doesn't define the age of the body.

Any body, which includes a developing body in a mothers womb, is not living without it's spirit within.

Adam did not have a body without spirit within him, as he was just dust.

Spirit is what animates dust into a living being.

No spirit, No life.

Physiological life can be maintained by life support machines after the spirit leaves the body.

Please show the chapter and verse that states this?


Even if that were true, that would mean every baby that is growing and developing within the mother's womb would have to have a life support machine hooked to it to live.





JLB

 

[Smiley_Elephant]

This denies physiological life, which is what animals have. And animals have no soul or spirit.


What Scripture backs this up?


Simply repeating an opinion does not result in it becoming truth.


Context is everything. He was referring to the definition of "dead", which is when the spirit LEAVES the body. ....

John 6:63
It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life.
Romans 8:11
But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwells in you.

 

[WIP]

The tone in this thread is beginning to heat up. My guess is that both sides have reached an impasse and getting hot under the collar won't force the issue. I urge that we calm this thread down.

Thank you,

WIP

 

[Smiley_Elephant]

Let's all take a breath as the church of Christ in his spirit here on this board and remember to love one another as God in Christ loves us.

 

[FreeGrace]

(Post removed. Ignored an administrators request. Obadiah)

 

[Deborah13]

Not the point.


But he never said that. He was speaking after being born by the phrase "come forth from the womb and expire".


I fail to see how this is relevant in any way. Job wasn't stupid. He knew when one is considered a human being. Which is when one is born. That's when human being life begins.

If human being life began at conception, he would have so noted.

What he said has nothing to do with poetry or just being "miserable". He knew he wasn't alive in the sense of being a human being until he was born. Which is precisely why he said what he said.

If I have understood your argument correctly it is that until a body is formed enough that it can keep living outside the womb it is not a soul/living being. That God does not instill life into the being until then.
The scripture that you provide, to prove your statement, that clearly shows a fully developed body receiving the breath of life, soul/spirit is Genesis 2:7.
This is just not enough to convince me that it is the same when life is formed in the womb compared to outside the womb, as Adam was.
I will just point out that Job isn't someone who always knew what he was talking about.
How wise was Job?
Job 25:4 How then can man be justified with God? or how can he be clean that is born of a woman?
Job 25:5 Behold even to the moon, and it shineth not; yea, the stars are not pure in his sight.
Job 25:6 How much less man, that is a worm? and the son of man, which is a worm?
Was Job right when he made this statement and asked these rhetorical questions?
God took great pains to show Job, this upright man, that he didn't always know what he was talking about.

I rest my case.
Blessings to you, Free Grace

 

[FreeGrace]

If I have understood your argument correctly it is that until a body is formed enough that it can keep living outside the womb it is not a soul/living being. That God does not instill life into the being until then.

There isn't any evidence to indicate that He reversed the order for the first and Last Adam regarding the rest of us.

The scripture that you provide, to prove your statement, that clearly shows a fully developed body receiving the breath of life, soul/spirit is Genesis 2:7.

It would have been rather difficult for Adam if God created him as a newborn. Creating as an adult makes perfect sense. But the rest of us start life as newborns.

This is just not enough to convince me that it is the same when life is formed in the womb compared to outside the womb, as Adam was.

What convinces me is the order that God used for the first and Last Adam. And there is no evidence that God reversed that order for the rest of us.

I will just point out that Job isn't someone who always knew what he was talking about.

Correct. But to use that argument regarding 3:11 is just speculation.

How wise was Job?
Job 25:4 How then can man be justified with God? or how can he be clean that is born of a woman?
Job 25:5 Behold even to the moon, and it shineth not; yea, the stars are not pure in his sight.
Job 25:6 How much less man, that is a worm? and the son of man, which is a worm?
Was Job right when he made this statement and asked these rhetorical questions?
God took great pains to show Job, this upright man, that he didn't always know what he was talking about.

I rest my case.
Blessings to you, Free Grace

And to you as well.

 

[Smiley_Elephant]

I will just point out that Job isn't someone who always knew what he was talking about.
How wise was Job?
Job 25:4 How then can man be justified with God? or how can he be clean that is born of a woman?
Job 25:5 Behold even to the moon, and it shineth not; yea, the stars are not pure in his sight.
Job 25:6 How much less man, that is a worm? and the son of man, which is a worm?
Was Job right when he made this statement and asked these rhetorical questions?
God took great pains to show Job, this upright man, that he didn't always know what he was talking about.

I rest my case.
Blessings to you, Free Grace

Your case is poorly presented there. Job 25:1 tells you that that was not Job who was making those statements.

Job
25:1 Then Bildad the Shuhite replied:

2 “Dominion and awe belong to God;
he establishes order in the heights of heaven.
3 Can his forces be numbered?
On whom does his light not rise?
4 How then can a mortal be righteous before God?
How can one born of woman be pure?
5 If even the moon is not bright
and the stars are not pure in his eyes,
6 how much less a mortal, who is but a maggot—
a human being, who is only a worm!”



While Job 1:1 tells us who Job was in the eyes of God. Job 1:11 In the land of Uz there lived a man whose name was Job. This man was blameless and upright; he feared God and shunned evil.

 

[Deborah13]

Your case is poorly presented there. Job 25:1 tells you that that was not Job who was making those statements.

Job
25:1 Then Bildad the Shuhite replied:

2 “Dominion and awe belong to God;
he establishes order in the heights of heaven.
3 Can his forces be numbered?
On whom does his light not rise?
4 How then can a mortal be righteous before God?
How can one born of woman be pure?
5 If even the moon is not bright
and the stars are not pure in his eyes,
6 how much less a mortal, who is but a maggot—
a human being, who is only a worm!”



While Job 1:1 tells us who Job was in the eyes of God. Job 1:11 In the land of Uz there lived a man whose name was Job. This man was blameless and upright; he feared God and shunned evil.

I stand corrected. Thank you, good catch!!

 

[Smiley_Elephant]

I stand corrected. Thank you, good catch!!

Happy to help.