When your dead your dead!!

[Elvispelvis]

Death Is Unconsciousness

From what we have learnt so far about the soul and spirit, it should follow that while dead a person is totally unconscious. Whilst the actions of those responsible to God will be remembered by Him (Mal. 3:16; Rev. 20:12; Heb. 6:10), there is nothing in the Bible to suggest that we have any consciousness during the death state. It is hard to argue with the following clear statements concerning this:-

- "(Man's) breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day (moment) his thoughts perish" (Ps. 146:4).

- "The dead know not anything...their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished" (Ecc. 9:5,6). There is no "wisdom in the grave" (Ecc. 9:10) - no thinking and therefore no consciousness.

- Job says that on death, he would be "as though he had not been" (Job 10:18); he saw death as the oblivion, unconscious-ness and total lack of existence which we had before we were born.

- Man dies as the animals do (Ecc. 3:18); if man consciously survives death somewhere, so must they, yet both Scripture and science are silent about this.

- God "remembereth that we are dust. As for man, his days are as grass: as a flower of the field, so he flourisheth...it is gone; and the place thereof shall know it no more" (Ps. 103:14-16).

That death is truly unconsciousness, even for the righteous, is demonstrated by the repeated pleas of God's servants to allow their lives to be lengthened, because they knew that after death they would be unable to praise and glorify God, seeing that death was a state of unconsciousness. Hezekiah (Isa. 38:17-19) and David (Ps. 6:4,5; 30:9; 39:13; 115:17) are good examples of this. Death is repeatedly referred to as a sleep or rest, both for the righteous and the wicked (Job 3:11,13,17; Dan. 12:13).

Sufficient evidence has now been produced for us to bluntly state that the popular notion of the righteous going to a state of bliss and reward in heaven straight after their death, is simply not found in the Bible. The true doctrine of death and man's nature provides a great sense of peace. After all the traumas and pains of a man's life, the grave is a place of total oblivion. For those who have not known the requirements of God, this oblivion will last for ever. Never again will the old scores of this tragic and unfulfilled natural life be raised; the futile hopes and fears of the natural human mind will not be realized or threaten.

In Bible study, there is a system of truth to be discovered; yet, sadly, there is also a system of error in man's religious thinking, due to inattention to the Bible. Man's desperate efforts to soften the finality of death have led him to believe that he has an 'immortal soul'. Once it is accepted that such an immortal element exists within man, it becomes necessary to think that it must go somewhere after death. This has led to the thought that at death there must be some difference between the fates of the righteous and the wicked. To accommodate this, it has been concluded that there must be a place for 'good immortal souls' to go, called Heaven, and another place for 'bad immortal souls' to go, called hell. We have shown earlier that an 'immortal soul' is a Biblical impossibility. The other false ideas inherent in the popular reasoning will now be analysed:-

1. That the reward for our lives is given at death in the form of our 'immortal soul' being assigned to a certain place.


2. That the separation between righteous and wicked occurs at death.


3. That the reward for the righteous is to go to heaven.


4. That if everyone has an 'immortal soul', then everyone must go to either heaven or hell.


5. That the wicked 'souls' will go to a place of punishment called hell.

The purpose of our analysis is not just negative; by considering these points in detail, we believe that we will express many elements of Bible truth which are vital parts of the true picture concerning man's nature.

The old testament is full of future events, prophecy.

 

[Theofilus]

When you copy an article from another site, you really should provide a link. Or is there some reason that you don't want us to know that you copied and pasted this from a Christiadelphian website, as you did with your thread titled "The Spirit of Man"?

 

[inhopeofglory]

I'm curious as to why you're just quoting from a Christadelphian website here.

Edit: Theo beat me to it!

 

[Pard]

When *you're* dead *you're* dead

Sorry that was bugging me a lot!

Bible Basics Study 4.4 - Death is Unconsciousness

Did you write this? Are you a Christadelphian?

 

[thechristophershow]

I don't mind people copying/pasting from other sites. Obviously this guy read that site and wanted to know what people thought about it.

That said, I disagree with the post. You need to be careful. To me, this sounds like the Devil trying to confuse you. If there is no eternal soul, then there is no heaven or hell, which means we can live however we want on this earth without regard to the morality of our actions. Sounds like the Devil trying to confuse people in order to "win" more souls in hell at the end.

Also, in some of those verses, the words "death" or "die" refer to going to Hell, I believe.

Another thing: if you believe the validity of those verses, you probably also believe in the validity of the rest of the Bible, right? There are hundreds, probably even thousands, of references in the Bible to eternal life and Heaven. From the mouth of Jesus Himself, even. So couldn't it be that the Christadelphians (whoever they are; I don't know) are misinterpreting those verses, since obviously your soul DOES go somewhere when you die? According to Jesus, that is.

 

[Theofilus]

So couldn't it be that the Christadelphians (whoever they are; I don't know)...

Here are some things I found out about Christadelphians on culthelp.info. Among other things, Christadelphians believe that:

• There is no Trinity
• Jesus Christ is not God
• The Holy Spirit is not a person
• The devil does not exist
• Man is just a body - and not a body and soul
• Only Christadelphians who have met the required standards and the Jews have any hope of a resurrection and living in the kingdom that will be administered from Jerusalem.

Is this what you believe, Elvispelvis?

 

[inhopeofglory]

I don't mind people copying/pasting from other sites.

Neither do most of the board. But copying and pasting, with a link to what you're copying from, is very different from just pasting something as if it's your own. A lot of copying and pasting can be just to provoke a reaction, rather than actually engage in a discussion where you're discussing your own thoughts.

 

[Pard]

Provide a link and there is no problem. Of course had he provided a link I'd have never even read the article, it being a Christadelphian one.

That link I posted in my first post talks a bit about who they are.

Naturally I disagree. When you die you are not simply dead, end of story, game over. You are judged before God and if you came to Jesus then you will be judged as one of the sinless and able to enter into the Kingdom

 

[Elvispelvis]

Pard speaks for all christians through history"

Provide a link and there is no problem. Of course had he provided a link I'd have never even read the article, it being a Christadelphian one.


I am guilty of trying to help christians, its true!! You caught me

Well if your great grand father was killed by christians, and you were put in prison in many countries,
because we wont kill others in war, and we speak against the churches collecting money for God, along with
not being allowed in any church it would tend to cause you to hide the label put on us Christadelphians,The Brethren
The Abrahamic Covenant of Faith about 50,000 left in the whole world.

A tiny little group struggling to hold on.

When the church of the middle ages burned heretics " The Hugenots and the Waldenses" they were our forefathers
on a mission to get christians to read the old testament as I have stated many many times.



All christisns are allowed freedom of speech but not Christadelphians.

I have been banned from many web-sites because I am a Christadelphian

To become a Christadelphian you must read the old testament once a year every year of your life.
You must answer a series of questions posed to you by the elders at a council meeting of elders.
It takes three to five years of study before your ready to answer the councils questions on the old testament ,
the law and the prophets, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, King David,

Yeshua King of the earth etc, etc,
He is the truth the way and the life . The only way!

So I suppose its curtains again.

 

[Theofilus]

I don't see why you should be banned, just because you're a Christadelphian. This site has Atheists and at least one Muslim I know of. They don't get banned for their beliefs, why should you be for yours? Just be honest about who and what you are and where you're coming from.

 

[handy]

I doubt if it's "curtains again" Elvis...this site is open to all, no matter what their beliefs are as long as the terms are observed. Just be open and aboveboard, that's all. I've never heard of Christadelphians, but I had gathered from reading other posts of yours that you do not hold to Christian teaching.

As for your OP, there are a lot of statements that I disagree with, but let's start with this one:

Man's desperate efforts to soften the finality of death have led him to believe that he has an 'immortal soul'. Once it is accepted that such an immortal element exists within man, it becomes necessary to think that it must go somewhere after death. This has led to the thought that at death there must be some difference between the fates of the righteous and the wicked. To accommodate this, it has been concluded that there must be a place for 'good immortal souls' to go, called Heaven, and another place for 'bad immortal souls' to go, called hell. We have shown earlier that an 'immortal soul' is a Biblical impossibility.

Jesus Himself taught this in Matthew 25:31-46, and with such statements like, "I am the resurrection and the life, he who believes in Me shall never die. (Jn 11:25)" and "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them and they shall never perish; and no one shall snatch them out of My hand.(Jn 10:27)" and "I tell you, many will come from east and west and recline at table with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven, while the sons of the kingdom will be thrown into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.(Mt 8:11-12)" and "And if your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than with two hands to go to hell, to the unquenchable fire. And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life lame than with two feet to be thrown into hell. And if your eye causes you to sin, tear it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into hell, ‘where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.’" (Mk 9:42-48) and all the myriad of other statements of Christ which assure us that those who believe in Him have eternal life, and those who don't face eternal damnation.

To say that man has not eternal life would be to say that Jesus, when hanging on the cross, lied to the thief at His right when He said, "Today, you will be with Me in Paradise."

 

[thechristophershow]

To become a Christadelphian you must read the old testament once a year every year of your life. You must answer a series of questions posed to you by the elders at a council meeting of elders. It takes three to five years of study before your ready to answer the councils questions on the old testament, the law and the prophets....

Sounds a whole awful lot like an initiation process into a cult.

Look, Elvis, why are you trying to convert Christians into Christadelphians when there is no purpose to Christadelphianism? There is no life after death, so you can live your life without consequences and sin however much you want. Why are you trying to get us to do the same? If there is no end purpose of Christadelphianism, then there is no point in trying to convert us. The purpose of Christians converting people is so that they can enjoy everlasting life in the end. It's out of love. Converting someone to Christadelphianism or anything else that has no purpose makes no sense. Unless you're doing it because you were brainwashed to do it. Because, as I said, the requirements that need to be met to become a Christadelphian sound exactly like an initiation into a cult.

 

[Pard]

Elvis,

I do not know why you would get banned, except if you tried to promote it, but so far you have only posed opposing views to scripture, so I seriously do not see the problem. I enjoy your comments, they make me think, though I do not think I have ever actually agreed with you!

 

[Elvispelvis]

Phl 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

Thanks for keeping me


Sin cerley

 

[Ashua]

I tend to believe along these lines too. The only thing that comes to mind that suggests the conscious survives death is that the God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob is the God of the living and not the dead. and that to be absent from the body is presence with the LORD. There are ways to interpret this; not that interpretations account for anything if they are false.

All I can say is the first lie was "Ye shall surely not die."
and that God said to Adam, In that day that you eat of the tree, you will surely die.

If in death, we still "live" it seems off the mark. Paul referred to them that are "asleep" Christ referred to Lazarus as "asleep"

Christ said "Let the dead bury the dead." His sentiment was that among the physically living, are the spiritually dead. Perhaps that counted among the physically dead, are the spiritually quickened --in a state of rest.

It seems superfluous that the resurrection of the dead in Christ should be done if they are already "awake."

And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and [I saw] the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This [is] the first resurrection.

 

[Elvispelvis]

WHO ARE THE CHRISTADELPHIANS?

The Christadelphians, or as the name means, the "brethren in Christ" (Heb. 2:11, Col. 1:2) are a body of people associated together by a belief in the things concerning the Kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ (Acts 8:12); and by immersion into Christ (Gal. 3:27) for the remission of sins (Acts 2:38) and a part in his resurrection.

We do not profess to have received any new revelation, but hold that the Scriptures of the Old and New Testaments are able to make wise unto Salvation (2 Tim. 3:15,17). Believing in the Divine Authorship of the Bible, we think it only reasonable to eschew any interpretation thereof which fails to harmonise all the testimonies of the Holy Scriptures; and finding that the creeds of the various sects around are, in a great variety of ways, opposed to the direct teacing of the Bible, we feel compelled to stand apart, making appeal in all such matters to the statements of Scripture, and testing all creeds thereby.

We believe in the personal, visible return of Christ to the earth, to set up his power and reign thereon, and we seek to share this knowledge with others. We offer our services in expounding the message of the Bible without cost of any kind.

 

[smaller]

Courtesy of Matt Slick at the CARM board:

What do the Christadelphians Teach?


by Matt Slick
Though they acknowledge many truths found in the Bible, they deny many others.

• They believe the Bible is the infallible and inerrant word of God. (The Christadelphians: What They Believe and Preach, p. 82)
• They teach there is only one God. (Isaiah 43-45)
• They teach that Jesus had a sin nature (What They Believe, p. 74)
• They teach that Jesus needed to save himself, before he could save us. (Christadelphian Answers, p. 24)
• They teach that Jesus will return and set up his kingdom on earth. (What They Believe , p. 268)
• They believe that there has been an apostasy and that Christianity is a false religious system. (A tract titled “Christendom Astray Since the Apostolic Age, Detroit Christadelphian Book Supply)
• They believe annihilation of the wicked. (What They Believe, p. 187).
• They believe that baptism is necessary for salvation. (What They Believe , p. 71,72, 207-210)
• They believe that it is possible to lose one’s salvation. (What They Believe , p. 212)
• They deny the doctrine of the Trinity. (What They Believe, p. 84-87)
• They deny that Jesus is God in flesh. (Answers, p. 22)
• They deny that Jesus existed prior to his incarnation. (What They Believe , p. 85,86)
• They deny the personhood and deity of the Holy Spirit. (What They Believe , p. 115)
• They deny the substitutionary atonement of Christ. (Answers, p. 25; What They Believe, p. 71)
• They deny salvation by grace through faith alone. (What they Believe, p. 204)
• They deny immortality of the soul. (What They Believe , p. 17).
• They deny that a person exists after death. (What They Believe, p. 17)
• They deny the existence of hell and eternal punishment. (What They Believe, p. 188-189)
• They deny the existence of the fallen angel Lucifer as the devil. (Answers, p. 100)

I have bolded the portions where they appear to be quite 'off.'

s

 

[thechristophershow]

What do the Christadelphians Teach?
They believe that baptism is necessary for salvation. (What They Believe , p. 71,72, 207-210)

• They believe that it is possible to lose one’s salvation. (What They Believe , p. 212)
• They deny salvation by grace through faith alone. (What they Believe, p. 204)

I have bolded the portions where they appear to be quite 'off.'

I believe the Bible does say you have to be baptized to get to heaven.

You CAN lose your salvation: once you stop walking the walk of Christianity. You can say you're a Christian all you like, but if you're not living like Jesus, you're not going to heaven. Being "saved" isn't real. The only time you can be saved is at the time of death.

"Faith alone" is nowhere in the Bible. One of the few things I agree with Catholics on is that good deeds are essential for salvation. They aren't ALL you need, but they are essential, yes. And no, good works are not a result of faith. You can be as faithful as the Pope, but if you follow the "I'm saved" garbage, you're likely to end up thinking, "Hey, I'm saved, I believe in Jesus. I am now free to do whatever I want." Believers are not automatically forgiven. They need to ASK for forgiveness. Not just once, but every time they sin. You fall from grace every time you sin. You are forgiven when you regret your sin. Anyway, point is, "grace by faith alone" is dangerous to teach people. You have to try to ACT like Jesus, not just believe in him.

 

[smaller]

I believe the Bible does say you have to be baptized to get to heaven.

There are many baptisms. To which do you refer?

You CAN lose your salvation: once you stop walking the walk of Christianity. You can say you're a Christian all you like, but if you're not living like Jesus, you're not going to heaven. Being "saved" isn't real. The only time you can be saved is at the time of death.

This is probably not the thread for this discussion. I will point out that there is not one named example of a believer losing their eternal salvation in the New Testament. Therefore it is a construct outside of specific proof texts. One can certainly fall away in this present life back into slaveship of the devil. This does NOT equate to loss of eternal salvation.

"Faith alone" is nowhere in the Bible. One of the few things I agree with Catholics on is that good deeds are essential for salvation. They aren't ALL you need, but they are essential, yes. And no, good works are not a result of faith. You can be as faithful as the Pope, but if you follow the "I'm saved" garbage, you're likely to end up thinking, "Hey, I'm saved, I believe in Jesus. I am now free to do whatever I want." Believers are not automatically forgiven. They need to ASK for forgiveness. Not just once, but every time they sin. You fall from grace every time you sin. You are forgiven when you regret your sin. Anyway, point is, "grace by faith alone" is dangerous to teach people. You have to try to ACT like Jesus, not just believe in him.

Do you think that by God dangling you over the potential of burning alive forever that He doesn't know what you'd really want to do apart from that fear?

And fwiw, neither the RCC or determinism have even determined that they have salvation. It remains only a guess on their parts that they call 'assurance' but not guarantee.

I'd rank some of the 'other' christadelphian positions quite far out into the realm of heresy.

 

[Elvispelvis]

smaller said '

I'd rank some of the 'other' christadelphian positions quite far out into the realm of heresy.


Elvis:

This is why christians kill us, put us in prison, kick us out of the churches, say all manner of evil against us.

This is why there are only 50,000 of us in the whole world !!