Where are the miracles?

[Tessa]

Hi Tessa,

Revelation 19:20 King James Version

20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Yes! Given that there are no real disciples, than there cannot be any genuine miracles today. Do you know of any sect that are performing miracles?

I know of some Pentecostal churches that have healing services. I do not belong to any but I know of people who have been healed.
I believe if our faith was strong enough God would use us as a channel to heal.
I understand what you are saying by quoting that part of Revelation. That is something we have to keep in mind when the beast is revealed.

 

[Elihoenai]

I know of some Pentecostal churches that have healing services. I do not belong to any but I know of people who have been healed.
I believe if our faith was strong enough God would use us as a channel to heal.
I understand what you are saying by quoting that part of Revelation. That is something we have to keep in mind when the beast is revealed.

Revelation 18:4 King James Version

4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.


Happy to say we are outcast from mainstream denominational and non-denominational Churches. Any Church that has a Sinning congregation is not performing real miracles.

 

[Serving Zion]

The Bible is full of extraordinary events. People were raised from the dead, seas were parted, water turned into wine. Where are the miracles of today? Where is God in modern times?

The miracles of today are more like the miracles of the days leading into Christ. The Jews had been polluted by their many apostasies, and had lost the genuine knowledge of the faith through the Babylonian exile. They had constructed immensely complex laws and systems of law to try and prevent upsetting God again while they hoped for the Messiah to come and restore their faith to the former days - the days indeed of the powers shown through Moses.

When you consider the powers shown through King David, that's the only power that is known widely in the present day. He is mighty, but who has He chosen in order to show His power through? Who is the one that can purify the sons of Levi like a launderer that their offerings will again be acceptable to Adonai? The Christ, of course, of which we are parts individually. But why doesn't He show His power through us the same as He did through Christ Jesus? Only two reasons can account for that: He must be willing, and we must be willing.

So the answer lies in every single one of us, a question that ought halt every tongue that professes to believe in Him: what is stopping you from reaching out your hand in faith and saying "in the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth I command you: get up and walk!".

 

[Quantrill]

Acts 9:36-42 King James Version

36 Now there was at Joppa a certain disciple named Tabitha, which by interpretation is called Dorcas: this woman was full of good works and almsdeeds which she did.

37 And it came to pass in those days, that she was sick, and died: whom when they had washed, they laid her in an upper chamber.

38 And forasmuch as Lydda was nigh to Joppa, and the disciples had heard that Peter was there, they sent unto him two men, desiring him that he would not delay to come to them.

39 Then Peter arose and went with them. When he was come, they brought him into the upper chamber: and all the widows stood by him weeping, and shewing the coats and garments which Dorcas made, while she was with them.

40 But Peter put them all forth, and kneeled down, and prayed; and turning him to the body said, Tabitha, arise. And she opened her eyes: and when she saw Peter, she sat up.

41 And he gave her his hand, and lifted her up, and when he had called the saints and widows, presented her alive.

42 And it was known throughout all Joppa; and many believed in the Lord.


When stating no real disciples, I'm including myself and would never make comparisons with the original disciples or apostles. We have heard of the real cost of true discipleship.

Are you saying that you can heal the sick, cleanse lepers, raise the dead and cast out devils?

The twelve disciples were certainly unique in their relation to the Lord. And Judas was one of those. And Judas had to have done miracles also. (Matt. 10:1) What did Judas position as a disciple and one who did miracles do for him?

You seem to imply there are no more disciples today. And no more miraculous gifts today. But there were always more disciples. Take the 70. (Luke 10:1-12) And later in (Acts 6:7) And these did miracles also, though not all of them, disciples or miracles, are mentioned.

As the opening post begins with an air of unbelief that miracles don't happen today among the Church, so does your posts. And do you think God will ever show you a miracle to prove Himself to you or others. (Matt. 12:38-39)

Quantrill

 

[WIP]

[ACMP=reminder]
The Questions From Seekers forum is reserved for nonbelievers to ask questions and for CFnet Christians to answer. Please start a new discussion thread in the appropriate forum if you wish to continue this debate.
[/ACMP]

 

[for_his_glory]

Are you saying that you can heal the sick, cleanse lepers, raise the dead and cast out devils?

Yes, in the power and authority of Christ Jesus, as there is nothing we can do of our own self. Jesus has worked through me being His vessel to heal the sick and cast out devils, but He has never used me to raise the dead.

Mark 16:16-17; Luke 10:17-20

 

[for_his_glory]

Hi Tessa,

Revelation 19:20 King James Version

20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Yes! Given that there are no real disciples, than there cannot be any genuine miracles today. Do you know of any sect that are performing miracles?

I'm not sure what Rev 19:20 has to do with discipleship? This verse is speaking about the last day when Christ returns that He will destroy the beast and it's false prophet casting them alive into the lake of fire.

 

[for_his_glory]

Oops, sorry WIP didn't see the reminder before I replied.

Going to move this thread over to Theology.

 

[Elihoenai]

The twelve disciples were certainly unique in their relation to the Lord. And Judas was one of those. And Judas had to have done miracles also. (Matt. 10:1) What did Judas position as a disciple and one who did miracles do for him?

You seem to imply there are no more disciples today. And no more miraculous gifts today. But there were always more disciples. Take the 70. (Luke 10:1-12) And later in (Acts 6:7) And these did miracles also, though not all of them, disciples or miracles, are mentioned.

As the opening post begins with an air of unbelief that miracles don't happen today among the Church, so does your posts. And do you think God will ever show you a miracle to prove Himself to you or others. (Matt. 12:38-39)

Quantrill

Good questions.

Jude 4 King James Version

4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

Does Judas sell fake miracles to deceive and for money? What is the measure of True Discipleship? You must prove yourself to Elohim/God that you are worthy.

 

[for_his_glory]

Just seen the reminder after posting first reply. See that for_his_glory is moving this to Theology.

You are actually posting in the Theology forum. I moved it here as the discussion has gotten deeper, more than just Questions From Seekers.

 

[Elihoenai]

Yes, in the power and authority of Christ Jesus, as there is nothing we can do of our own self. Jesus has worked through me being His vessel to heal the sick and cast out devils, but He has never used me to raise the dead.

Mark 16:16-17; Luke 10:17-20

Matthew 3:11 Young's Literal Translation

11 `I indeed do baptize you with water to reformation, but he who after me is coming is mightier than I, of whom I am not worthy to bear the sandals, he shall baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire,


Powers is given to those Believing. Would you say Believing is demonstrated by Acts? Is this John's Baptism?

 

[Elihoenai]

I'm not sure what Rev 19:20 has to do with discipleship? This verse is speaking about the last day when Christ returns that He will destroy the beast and it's false prophet casting them alive into the lake of fire.

2 Peter 2:1 King James Version

2 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.


The point is that there are false disciples performing fake miracles. How do you determine the real from the fake? I could be a fake without knowing it, having bought a misrepresentation of Yeshua Messiah/Jesus Christ.

 

[daninthelionsden]

2 Peter 2:1 King James Version

2 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.


The point is that there are false disciples performing fake miracles. How do you determine the real from the fake? I could be a fake without knowing it, having bought a misrepresentation of Yeshua Messiah/Jesus Christ.

I was healed during a healing service led by Evangelist Joe Donato. I didn't go there except to observe with a skeptical yet open mind. I was healed right where I sat in secret. I never went down in front of everybody. I also witnessed a friend get healed. He remains lost to this day. There is no secret spiritual algebraic formula to healing. God heals whomever He will however He will whenever He will. He needs not meet anyone else's doctrine/belief/judgment. He is sovereign.
This arrogant "well He didn't heal because I didn't see/receive it" is utter nonsense.

 

[Serving Zion]

He remains lost to this day.

Is it possible that he has some faith in God, but lacks sufficient understanding to believe the doctrines of Christianity? I think there's a lot of people in that situation, just because the way the gospel is presented is often so misrepresented that they simply can't accept it because it doesn't add up.

 

[Quantrill]

Good questions.

Jude 4 King James Version

4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

Does Judas sell fake miracles to deceive and for money? What is the measure of True Discipleship? You must prove yourself to Elohim/God that you are worthy.

You will always have people in the Church who are not Christian, not born-again. Just like with the Israel of old when coming out of Egypt you had the 'mixed multitude' going with them. (Ex. 12:38)

Concerning Judas, if he in fact did miracles, and I believe (Matt. 10:1) indicates he did, they would not have been fake miracles. They would have been real. If he did them, it wasn't by his power, but the power of God which was given to the 12.

And those miracles were not to validate the individual as a child of God. They were to validate the truth of the Gospel of the Kingdom to Israel, that it was at hand. (Matt. 10:5-15)

I'm not sure what you mean by 'true discipleship'. Are you equating that with one being a child of God?There is a sense of maturity that the believer comes to which involves his 'sonship'. Meaning an 'adult son'. (Gal. 3:26-4:7)

The believer is encouraged to walk worthy of his calling. (Eph. 4:1) But I would hesitate to say I have proved myself to God and am worthy. Because I haven't and am not. The only One worthy is Christ.

Quantrill

 

[Quantrill]

2 Peter 2:1 King James Version

2 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.


The point is that there are false disciples performing fake miracles. How do you determine the real from the fake? I could be a fake without knowing it, having bought a misrepresentation of Yeshua Messiah/Jesus Christ.

As far as a fake Christian, you are only fake if you don't believe that Jesus is the Son of God and Saviour as is declared in the Scripture, but say you do. That is between you and God. You can fool me, but not Him.

But, in the church setting, where believers are gathered to worship God and Christ, and to break bread and the Word of Life together, the fake is easily revealed.

I personally believe it is quite dangerous for one to purposely enter such a fellowship with false intentions to prey upon the saints. God is quite jealous over His people and the worship that is directed toward Him.

Quantrill

 

[for_his_glory]

2 Peter 2:1 King James Version

2 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.


The point is that there are false disciples performing fake miracles. How do you determine the real from the fake? I could be a fake without knowing it, having bought a misrepresentation of Yeshua Messiah/Jesus Christ.

All things are done through Christ Jesus in His name as signs and wonders will follow the moving of the Holy Spirit. Those who receive from God will testify of Him through the miracles they receive. If the anointing of the Holy Spirit is not present then these type of false disciples are not anointed to be the disciples of Christ as they only give lip service to the Lord, but are void of Him inside. If you are indwelled with the Holy Spirit through the Spiritual rebirth from above then you will not be deceived as you grow in faith and truth of the doctrines of Christ.

Let me ask you, are you Spiritually born again and baptized in the Baptism of Christ for the receiving of the Holy Spirit?

By the screen name you use, are your eyes truly towards the Lord and if they are then you are not a fake, but a disciple in training as we all are in learning truth.

 

[for_his_glory]

Matthew 3:11 Young's Literal Translation

11 `I indeed do baptize you with water to reformation, but he who after me is coming is mightier than I, of whom I am not worthy to bear the sandals, he shall baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire,


Powers is given to those Believing. Would you say Believing is demonstrated by Acts? Is this John's Baptism?

Faith comes by hearing the preaching of God's word as demonstrated in Acts 2:14-41. Hopefully the below will help you understand the Baptism of Christ and His salvation.

Lev 16:23 And Aaron shall come into the tabernacle of the congregation, and shall put off the linen garments, which he put on when he went into the holy place, and shall leave them there:
Lev 16:24 And he shall wash his flesh with water in the holy place, and put on his garments, and come forth, and offer his burnt offering, and the burnt offering of the people, and make an atonement for himself, and for the people.

The Mikveh (meaning a collection of water) in the OT was a bath used for the purpose of ritual immersion. Several biblical regulations specify that full immersion in water is required to regain ritual purity after ritually impure incidents have occured. In Priestly law, the ultimate purpose of ritual purification was to protect God's sanctuary, the tabernacle, from contamination, Leviticus chapter 15.

The Mikveh, being a shadow of John's baptism and the baptism of the Holy Spirit, was for purification, not for remission of sin, like that of what Esaias prophecied saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight, Isaiah 40:3. In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea, And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand. And were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins, Matthew 3:1-6. John said, I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire, Matthew 3:11.


Ephesians 2:8 Salvation is by grace through faith in Jesus and not by works, which would make water baptism a work towards repentance. John said I must decrease and Jesus increase. John's water baptism was only for repentance as being prepared for the coming of the Lord as the water represented the washing away of sin, or as John put it "prepare ye the way of the Lord". It is not clear in scripture that Jesus ever baptized anyone in water even though He first came to John's water baptism as a fulfillment of prophecy as He had to identify with humanity even though He had no sin. This was the beginning of Christ ministry as the Holy Spirit fell down on Him that day as God gave Him full power and authority here on earth and there after Jesus went about teaching the disciples as it was not Jesus who the Pharisees heard that He baptized more than John did, John 4:1-3 but His disciples baptizing others in water for remission of sin after the death of John the Baptist as all together they would have baptized others in water for the remission of sin then John could at one time. Jesus could not baptize anyone in the Holy Spirit until the day of Pentecost after He ascended up to the Father and the Father sent down the indwelling Holy Spirit, Acts 2.

John 3:5 never mentions the word baptize, but says only by being born of water and spirit, which means water as living water, word of God, that no one can enter into the kingdom of God unless they are Spiritually renewed (born again) by the hearing of the word, which is Christ Jesus and by the Holy Spirit that came on them in the OT and indwells us in the NT. Many do read into the passage a preconceived idea or theology, but baptism is never mentioned in this verse. God's word is living water as described in John 4:4-26; 7:37-39; 12:44-50; Ephesians 5:26; 1 John 5:5-8; Jeremiah 17:13; Zechariah 14:8, 9; Rev 21:6-8; Ezekiel 47:22.

If salvation came by actual immersion in water Jesus clearly could have simply stated, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is baptized by being immersed in water and born of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.” Further, if Jesus had made such a statement, He would have contradicted numerous other Bible passages that make it clear that salvation is by faith (John 3:16; John 3:36; Ephesians 2:8-9; Titus 3:5).

There is the case of the thief on the cross who repented, the women who was to be stoned for adultery, the women at the well, death bed confessions and even those who are incapacitated that can not be immersed in water. Does this mean they are not saved or born again, no. It means that no dirty river water is going to save anyone, but that it is only a symbol of repentance like that of John the baptist who called those to repent first. There is nothing wrong with being dunked in water, but know that it is only an outward appearance to others of what has already taken place Spiritually within you when you repented, accepted Jesus and was indwelled with the Holy Spirit.

Baptism is not mentioned in John chapter three so why do so many believe we are to be dunked in dirty river water as the water can not bring about Gods salvation, but only by faith do we believe as it comes by Gods grace, Ephesians 2:1-10, as we hear the gospel (word/living water) preached to us.

This is what the Jerusalem Bible says:
John 3:3 "I tell you most solemnly, unless a man is born from above, he can not see the kingdom of God."
John 3:5-7 "I tell you most solemnly, unless a man is born through water and the Spirit, he can not enter the kingdom of God. What is born of the flesh is flesh,(sin nature) what is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not be surprised when I say you must be born from above.

One needs to hear the word of God, as word being living water, in order to know they have to be born again of the Spirit in order to see and enter the kingdom of God.

John's baptism was literal, but yet symbolic for cleansing after one repented of their sin. Notice in Mark 1:8 I have baptized you with (actual) water, but he (Jesus) will baptize you with the Holy Spirit. (Not water, but baptize you with the Holy Spirit after you have repented and made clean again through the washing of the word as you become a new creation in Christ.

Jesus never baptized anyone in literal water that we know of and also instructed the Disciples to wait upon the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, Acts chapter 1, and then commissioned them to go out preaching the Gospel (word/living water) and to baptize in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, Matthew 28:16-20.

Being born from above means being born from the heavenly word of God, not dirty river water. When Jesus was baptized by John it was for the fulfillment of Messiah come as the Holy Spirit fell down on Him. Jesus had no need of being baptized in water for the remission of sin.

 

[Elihoenai]

I was healed during a healing service led by Evangelist Joe Donato. I didn't go there except to observe with a skeptical yet open mind. I was healed right where I sat in secret. I never went down in front of everybody. I also witnessed a friend get healed. He remains lost to this day. There is no secret spiritual algebraic formula to healing. God heals whomever He will however He will whenever He will. He needs not meet anyone else's doctrine/belief/judgment. He is sovereign.
This arrogant "well He didn't heal because I didn't see/receive it" is utter nonsense.

Is the Evangelist you mentioned Roman Catholic? Was it a Roman Catholic service? Do you believe the Roman Catholic Church does real Exorcisms? We are not Roman Catholic or Protestant.

 

[Elihoenai]

You will always have people in the Church who are not Christian, not born-again. Just like with the Israel of old when coming out of Egypt you had the 'mixed multitude' going with them. (Ex. 12:38)

Concerning Judas, if he in fact did miracles, and I believe (Matt. 10:1) indicates he did, they would not have been fake miracles. They would have been real. If he did them, it wasn't by his power, but the power of God which was given to the 12.

And those miracles were not to validate the individual as a child of God. They were to validate the truth of the Gospel of the Kingdom to Israel, that it was at hand. (Matt. 10:5-15)

I'm not sure what you mean by 'true discipleship'. Are you equating that with one being a child of God?There is a sense of maturity that the believer comes to which involves his 'sonship'. Meaning an 'adult son'. (Gal. 3:26-4:7)

The believer is encouraged to walk worthy of his calling. (Eph. 4:1) But I would hesitate to say I have proved myself to God and am worthy. Because I haven't and am not. The only One worthy is Christ.

Quantrill

Revelation 5:1-2 King James Version

5 And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals.

2 And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof


Church members have the same doctrine in common. If the members have been given false doctrine all of them are not real Christian?

Is Judas sincere in his walk with Elohim/God?

You cannot be True Disciple if you don't know the difference between the real and the fake. There has been over 2000 years history of spreading a fake gospel.