[_ Old Earth _] Where Did the Idea of a Flat Earth Originate?

[Runner]

OK, so the Virtual Flat Earth Paradigm went nowhere. I sailed it up to the edge and no one followed, as we Flat Earthers say.

But I continue to think outside the sphere. My latest effort, I believe, is closer to the true spirit of the Flat Earth theory. We are calling it – somewhat clumsily, we admit, but we’re still in the beta test stage – the Flat Earth Koan Paradigm.

A Zen koan is, of course, a mysterious question like “What is the sound of one hand clapping?” The Zen student meditates on this for, oh, 7,000 hours or so and then appears before his Master with an answer that he hopes will demonstrate his enlightenment.

“One hand can’t clap, you old fool!” is never a satisfactory answer. It merely demonstrates the student has failed to transcend the dualistic, overly analytical thinking that is a positive hindrance to enlightenment.

There are many “correct” answers to “What is the sound of one hand clapping?” They tend to be things like “a bowl of oatmeal” or “the fig tree in the garden.” This, of course, sounds nonsensical to you and me – we’re not enlightened.

Which brings us to “Why did God make the earth flat?” To the truly spiritual, the answer can never be “God didn’t make the earth flat – look around you, dummy.” This merely demonstrates you’re locked into the sort of overly analytical thinking that regards your five senses and intellectual capabilities as some sort of reliable guide to spiritual truth.

Not being a Flat Earth Master, I cannot say what a satisfactory answer to the Flat Earth Koan might be. I can only say it will have nothing to do with whether, in any objective sense, the earth is actually flat. If you keep insisting the earth is not flat, you may as well become a Scientologist. You care nothing about spiritual truth.

So that, in a flat nutshell, is the Flat Earth Koan Paradigm: You can never demonstrate your spirituality by any response having anything whatsoever to do with what the spiritually unenlightened might call “objective evidence” the earth is not flat. You must provide an answer (“a cat in the litterbox,” perhaps, or “the automotive section at Walmart”) that will demonstrate you “get” the koan. Bible verses likewise are not satisfactory answers in and of themselves - even the demons can read, as James reminds us.

Likewise, a true Flat Earth Master will never attempt to demonstrate by objective evidence the earth is flat. This is to sink to the level of the unenlightened. Zen masters do not run around with digital recorders in an attempt to prove the sound of one hand clapping is ... well, whatever it is.

I will agree the Flat Earth Koan Paradigm sounds a bit Eastern for my taste, but we’re working on this. Suggestions are welcome. We’re also working diligently on the Young Earth Koan Paradigm, although right now the Flat Earth version looks a lot more promising. A Unified Virtual Flat Earth Koan Paradigm is, of course, our holy grail.

Is this better? Is anyone going to sail off the edge with me on this one, or am I just trying too hard? Regrettably, I now find the notion of a spherical earth so dull that I fear I can never go back.

 

[Douglas Summers]

As your Bible states, the Earth is fixed in place, not spinning. Planes don't keep their reference to Earth and thus could not land on something spinning beneath them at 940 mph in North America.
Foucault pendulum

The earth's gravity plays a role in physics. There are many laws (physical laws) God created in his creation of all things. You have bypassed them all to make a statement that has no merit as to creation and it's science. Bodies in motion tend to stay in motion; bodies at wrest tend to stay at rest; and gravity / has the same rate of descent on a rock as it does for a wad or crumpled piece of paper. But take the same paper and flatten it out and drop it. You will get different results because of the shape and the laws of aerodynamics. Many natural laws of science exist on the elements and climate of this planet for the purpose of man. All things in the universe are run by the negative - and positive + charges. If God removed them......nothing at all would exist or have a life.

 

[Brother Mike]

The earth's gravity plays a role in physics. There are many laws (physical laws) God created in his creation of all things. You have bypassed them all to make a statement that has no merit as to creation and it's science. Bodies in motion tend to stay in motion; bodies at wrest tend to stay at rest; and gravity / has the same rate of descent on a rock as it does for a wad or crumpled piece of paper. But take the same paper and flatten it out and drop it. You will get different results because of the shape and the laws of aerodynamics. Many natural laws of science exist on the elements and climate of this planet for the purpose of man. All things in the universe are run by the negative - and positive + charges. If God removed them......nothing at all would exist or have a life.

And Gravity is proven how? Your parroting Freemasonry science, with no evidence. Things also work just as well using density and pressure. Gravity is only used to explain how it all stays together with planets and things scripture never mentions. If mass attracted objects, then all the smoke from a fire would fall to the ground. Instead, the less dense smoke goes up being lighter than the surrounding air. Gravity keeps the moon in orbit how? The Earth they say is moving 67,000 mph around the sun will following the sun at 483,000 mph. Nothing in Gravity keeps the moon in orbit around earth perfectly. The Moon would have to speed up and slow down to keep up with earth and it does not.

In Joshua's time God stopped the sun above earth. If God stopped the Earth from rotating it would take several hours as to not cause massive waves that would wash over the continents. Even a sudden slow down of 2 mph would cause everyone to fall down.

Jos 10:13 And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed, until the people had avenged themselves upon their enemies. Is not this written in the book of Jasher? So the sun stood still in the midst of heaven, and hasted not to go down about a whole day.

If the Earth were a spinning ball flying through space and God said the Moon and Sun stood still for a full day, then the earth would be 780,000 miles further from the Moon after the day was done. We are told the moon is still 249,000 miles away. Since God only stopped the Sun and Moon, then every planet would be off course from it's orbit.

However, the Sun and Moon move above us according to their circuits (Psalm 19) and hence no issues since scripture is 100% true, and the science of man hiding God and creation is false.

All things are upheld by the Power of God's Word.

 

[Barbarian]

And Gravity is proven how?

Observation. For example, the gravity in rather small masses can accurately be measured by the Cavendish experiment.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cavendish_experiment

Your parroting Freemasonry science, with no evidence.

There is no "Freemasonry science." There is only science.

Things also work just as well using density and pressure.

See above. You're wrong.

Gravity is only used to explain how it all stays together with planets and things scripture never mentions.

Scripture never mentions atoms, either. But there they are. It's always wrong to try to make the Bible into a science text. That's not what it's about.

If mass attracted objects, then all the smoke from a fire would fall to the ground.

It does. Smoke will rise until it cools and it will stay along the ground there after.

Gravity keeps the moon in orbit how?

Because the moon is falling toward the Earth at the same time that it is moving parallel to the Earth; the resultant of the two vectors is an orbit. Here's why that works:

The Earth they say is moving 67,000 mph around the sun will following the sun at 483,000 mph. Nothing in Gravity keeps the moon in orbit around earth perfectly. The Moon would have to speed up and slow down to keep up with earth and it does not.

The moon is moving around the Sun at precisely the same speed as the Earth when they are in line with the Sun. When it is ahead of the Earth, it is slowing slightly because of the Earth's gravity. When it is behind the Earth, it is pulled slightly by the Earth's gravity.

Just as you can walk back and forth in the aisle of an airliner in flight, the moon can move around the Earth, due to gravity.

Whatever happened, did not affect the actual motion. As you know, the Earth orbits the Sun.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

OK, so the Virtual Flat Earth Paradigm went nowhere. I sailed it up to the edge and no one followed, as we Flat Earthers say.

But I continue to think outside the sphere. My latest effort, I believe, is closer to the true spirit of the Flat Earth theory. We are calling it – somewhat clumsily, we admit, but we’re still in the beta test stage – the Flat Earth Koan Paradigm.

A Zen koan is, of course, a mysterious question like “What is the sound of one hand clapping?” The Zen student meditates on this for, oh, 7,000 hours or so and then appears before his Master with an answer that he hopes will demonstrate his enlightenment.

“One hand can’t clap, you old fool!” is never a satisfactory answer. It merely demonstrates the student has failed to transcend the dualistic, overly analytical thinking that is a positive hindrance to enlightenment.

There are many “correct” answers to “What is the sound of one hand clapping?” They tend to be things like “a bowl of oatmeal” or “the fig tree in the garden.” This, of course, sounds nonsensical to you and me – we’re not enlightened.

Which brings us to “Why did God make the earth flat?” To the truly spiritual, the answer can never be “God didn’t make the earth flat – look around you, dummy.” This merely demonstrates you’re locked into the sort of overly analytical thinking that regards your five senses and intellectual capabilities as some sort of reliable guide to spiritual truth.

Not being a Flat Earth Master, I cannot say what a satisfactory answer to the Flat Earth Koan might be. I can only say it will have nothing to do with whether, in any objective sense, the earth is actually flat. If you keep insisting the earth is not flat, you may as well become a Scientologist. You care nothing about spiritual truth.

So that, in a flat nutshell, is the Flat Earth Koan Paradigm: You can never demonstrate your spirituality by any response having anything whatsoever to do with what the spiritually unenlightened might call “objective evidence” the earth is not flat. You must provide an answer (“a cat in the litterbox,” perhaps, or “the automotive section at Walmart”) that will demonstrate you “get” the koan. Bible verses likewise are not satisfactory answers in and of themselves - even the demons can read, as James reminds us.

Likewise, a true Flat Earth Master will never attempt to demonstrate by objective evidence the earth is flat. This is to sink to the level of the unenlightened. Zen masters do not run around with digital recorders in an attempt to prove the sound of one hand clapping is ... well, whatever it is.

I will agree the Flat Earth Koan Paradigm sounds a bit Eastern for my taste, but we’re working on this. Suggestions are welcome. We’re also working diligently on the Young Earth Koan Paradigm, although right now the Flat Earth version looks a lot more promising. A Unified Virtual Flat Earth Koan Paradigm is, of course, our holy grail.

Is this better? Is anyone going to sail off the edge with me on this one, or am I just trying too hard? Regrettably, I now find the notion of a spherical earth so dull that I fear I can never go back.

You say, "why did God make the Earth flat?"
To the zen master, there is no God.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Observation. For example, the gravity in rather small masses can accurately be measured by the Cavendish experiment.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cavendish_experiment



There is no "Freemasonry science." There is only science.



See above. You're wrong.



Scripture never mentions atoms, either. But there they are. It's always wrong to try to make the Bible into a science text. That's not what it's about.



It does. Smoke will rise until it cools and it will stay along the ground there after.



Because the moon is falling toward the Earth at the same time that it is moving parallel to the Earth; the resultant of the two vectors is an orbit. Here's why that works:

The moon is moving around the Sun at precisely the same speed as the Earth when they are in line with the Sun. When it is ahead of the Earth, it is slowing slightly because of the Earth's gravity. When it is behind the Earth, it is pulled slightly by the Earth's gravity.

Just as you can walk back and forth in the aisle of an airliner in flight, the moon can move around the Earth, due to gravity.

Whatever happened, did not affect the actual motion. As you know, the Earth orbits the Sun.

I agree it is wrong to make the Bible into a science text.
It is equally wrong to say science is correct, therefore the Bible is wrong.

 

[Jacks Bratt]

I find it interesting that we say Enoch is the author of the book by his name when at the time of his death, there was no known form of writing.

Enoch was taught the art of writing, recording using symbols... which is the very basics of any recorded word. Every written language is just one form of symbols or another... Enoch was taught this.

 

[Runner]

Oh, shoot.

I floated the Flat Earth Koan Paradigm at a couple of Buddhist sites, and the response was unanimous. “Nope, won’t work as a koan. Everyone knows the earth is spherical. Besides, giggling is not tolerated in the mediation hall.”

Ouch.

But with the enthusiasm of a new convert, I persist. My team and I are currently working on the Parable of the Deep Dish Pizza, which just might get us where we want to be. (I am assuming the earth is deep-dish and not thin crust, but let me know if I’ve gone off the edge here.)

Some of the fine points are eluding me: How do the seasons work? Are both sides populated? If not, has anyone attempted to visit the other side, or is it Hell? Is there an irreconcilable conflict between the Flat Earth Theory and the Hollow Earth Theory, or do they dovetail nicely? Did the assassination of JFK relate in any way to the conspiracy to suppress the truth about the Flat Earth? (If the answer to the last question is no, I'm going to be very very disappointed.)

I’m sure these are basic questions experienced Flat Earthers (my team and I just call ourselves Flatulents) can answer in a heartbeat.

Anyway, the basic thrust of the Parable of the Deep Dish Pizza is ... well, I’ll get back to you.

You say, "why did God make the Earth flat?"
To the zen master, there is no God.

More or less true, but misses the point. The Flat Earth Koan Paradigm is not actually a Zen koan, but rather a paradigm built upon a koan-like foundation. To the question "Why did God make the earth flat?" a Zen master would respond, "He made it spherical, grasshopper." But we don't care about Zen masters here. What do they know? No, the Flat Earth Koan Paradigm is as thoroughly Christian as the Flat Earth Theory itself, more or less. Alas, the Flat Earth Koan Paradigm is finding no more takers than the Virtual Flat Earth Paradigm, so let's dismiss them from our minds and concentrate our efforts on the Parable of the Deep Dish Pizza.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Enoch was taught the art of writing, recording using symbols... which is the very basics of any recorded word. Every written language is just one form of symbols or another... Enoch was taught this.

My timeline says Enoch lived about 6,000 years ago.
I was under the understanding nothing was written down until somewhere around 3,000 BC, which would be 5,000 years ago.

 

[jasonc]

Enoch starTed the first language in written form?

 

[Jacks Bratt]

My timeline says Enoch lived about 6,000 years ago.
I was under the understanding nothing was written down until somewhere around 3,000 BC, which would be 5,000 years ago.

Enoch was born year 622 and taken in 987. Pretty close to 5,000 years ago.

 

[Barbarian]

My timeline says Enoch lived about 6,000 years ago.
I was under the understanding nothing was written down until somewhere around 3,000 BC, which would be 5,000 years ago.

Around 3500 BC, I think.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Enoch was born year 622 and taken in 987. Pretty close to 5,000 years ago.

Okay, you want to believe he wrote this book.
And how old is our oldest copy?
And do we have a complete copy?
And you want to use it to prove what?

 

[Douglas Summers]

And Gravity is proven how? Your parroting Freemasonry science, with no evidence. Things also work just as well using density and pressure. Gravity is only used to explain how it all stays together with planets and things scripture never mentions. If mass attracted objects, then all the smoke from a fire would fall to the ground. Instead, the less dense smoke goes up being lighter than the surrounding air. Gravity keeps the moon in orbit how? The Earth they say is moving 67,000 mph around the sun will following the sun at 483,000 mph. Nothing in Gravity keeps the moon in orbit around earth perfectly. The Moon would have to speed up and slow down to keep up with earth and it does not.

In Joshua's time God stopped the sun above earth. If God stopped the Earth from rotating it would take several hours as to not cause massive waves that would wash over the continents. Even a sudden slow down of 2 mph would cause everyone to fall down.

Jos 10:13 And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed, until the people had avenged themselves upon their enemies. Is not this written in the book of Jasher? So the sun stood still in the midst of heaven, and hasted not to go down about a whole day.

If the Earth were a spinning ball flying through space and God said the Moon and Sun stood still for a full day, then the earth would be 780,000 miles further from the Moon after the day was done. We are told the moon is still 249,000 miles away. Since God only stopped the Sun and Moon, then every planet would be off course from it's orbit.

However, the Sun and Moon move above us according to their circuits (Psalm 19) and hence no issues since scripture is 100% true, and the science of man hiding God and creation is false.

All things are upheld by the Power of God's Word.

This we can agree on, nothing else matters to me.
All things are upheld by the Power of God's Word.[/QUOTE]

 

[Jacks Bratt]

Okay, you want to believe he wrote this book.
And how old is our oldest copy?
And do we have a complete copy?
And you want to use it to prove what?

Don't know, however, the Bible quotes it and that is Holy Spirit inspired, God breathed, word of God. Gotta be something to it. Doesn't the dead sea scrolls have some of it too? I am busy and don't have time to search right now.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Don't know, however, the Bible quotes it and that is Holy Spirit inspired, God breathed, word of God. Gotta be something to it. Doesn't the dead sea scrolls have some of it too? I am busy and don't have time to search right now.

I don't believe it so we can just drop it or you can prove it when you have time.
Your choice.

 

[Jacks Bratt]

I don't believe it so we can just drop it or you can prove it when you have time.
Your choice.

From my experience, there will not be enough proof out there to convince you. People are either open to the Biblically endorsed extra-biblical text or they just write it off due to the fact that the content paints a very extraordinary picture of history.

We believe Plato, Aristotle, Socrates, but not Enoch. Why? Because his story line is not traditional and it is extraordinary. It does not, however, contradict the canonized Bible.

I don't know why, we as humans, refuse to understand that it is pretty arrogant to believe that life on this earth has always been just like it is today.

 

[Douglas Summers]

I agree it is wrong to make the Bible into a science text.
It is equally wrong to say science is correct, therefore the Bible is wrong.

Hi Allen Wayne / AKA as Rollo Tamasi,

The Bible is a science book also, unless you do not believe in creation as the Word tells it. If a man follows Christ in the NT, Christ confirms the events of the OT creation, the flood, Enoch, David, man and women and marriage. Hours in a day. That the earth hangs in space with no support except by God's doing. How mountains and valleys are created, evaporation and rain. I'm busy now, but I will share scripture later. Do you believe the witness of Christ in the NT? or do you believe other theories?

Later
Christ in us,
Douglas Summers

 

[Free]

Free, your Bible, the Word of God is not a figure of speech book, it's not a book of poems, it's truth with no contradictions.

I never said the Bible is a figure of speech nor did I say it was a book of poems. It is, however, a book that happens to contain figures of speech as well as poems as parts of its writings.

Where there is symbolism, we are given the key. No Key, no symbolism. God covers us with His wings, is God a chicken? No, Jesus said He wish to gather Jerusalem as a hen under the wings. (Luke 13:34). God let us know, He most likely does not have feathers or wings, but is comparing spiritual with Natural.

It's called common sense and using it to understand context, to understand what the author's point is. The Bible uses such figures of speech and symbolism throughout.

The scripture does not say the Earth is a circle, round or any such shape but having corners and ends. 28 verses have the exact phrase "Ends of the Earth" The Word you question is Chug, used in Isa 40:22, He that sits on the "Circle (Chug) of the earth.
God is not sitting on Earth, and from the vantage point of the "CHUG" we look like Grasshoppers.

Job 22:14 Thick clouds are a covering to him, that he seeth not; and he walketh in the CHUG of heaven.

CHUG is located above Earth, it's also a Hebrew Male Noun and would need a Hebrew Adjective to describe it's smell, shape, color, size and so on. Hebrew Male nouns do not give their descriptions, just like English Nouns.

Pro 8:27 When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a CHUG upon the face of the depth:

There is Water above us, and the CHUG "Vault of Heaven BDB"

The Earth is fastened to pillar like objects at the corners under earth.

Job 38:4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.
Job 38:5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?
Job 38:6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;

The Earth has a face, had a measuring line drawn on it, not around it, and it's fastened by the corners which the angels will stand and hold the wind back from the 4 ends. The Main wind blows across Earth east and runs it's circuit.

The sun moves across Earth and hastens back to it's place to start again. (Ecc 1:5) (Psalm 19) This occurs in the Pacific Ocean, we have several video of it, some mistaken call it "NIRBU"

Again, figures of speech, some of which are simply the writers speaking from our point of view on earth. Perhaps it's best to leave theology and biblical interpretation to the theologians and scholars.

Isa 40:22 He who is sitting on the circle of the earth, And its inhabitants are as grasshoppers, He who is stretching out as a thin thing the heavens, And spreadeth them as a tent to dwell in. (YLT)

Isa 40:22 It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in: (KJV)

Isa 40:22 It is he who sits above the circle of the earth, and its inhabitants are like grasshoppers; who stretches out the heavens like a curtain, and spreads them like a tent to dwell in; (ESV)

There is nothing denoting a ball, a moving earth, a spinning earth but the earth is stationary.

Science tells us we're on a ball and it's moving. That was figured out centuries ago, by Christians no less. The idea of a non-moving earth is an old, pagan one, not a modern, Christian one.

Every place on Earth for anyone God is always above, in His throne room located right above the stars (Firmament) CHUG and the deep. Nobody looks below for God, or is the Ball in the way of God seeing anything.

God is everywhere.

Why can't we see the edges?
For one, we can't get High enough. At 24 miles up, our viewing distance total is only about 5,000 miles below.

And just why do you think we can only see about 5,000 miles below? If the earth was flat, we should be able to see the edges, but we can't. The reason is because the earth isn't flat.

It's the same reason why even if you were up 2000 feet on the east coast of North America with a telescope or pair of binoculars, you wouldn't be able to see Africa or the UK.

Nothing has crossed Center North Pole, nothing has crossed the center South Pole. It's guarded by the Polar treaty singed now by some 52 countries. No commercial flights cross either Pole, all take polar routes over Alaska, Greenland, Iceland, all flight paths fly the global flight route map which are East and West Routes, not over the Pole routes.

What about explorers and ships that have reached the North Pole? Not a single one has ever reported seeing the edge of the earth.

As for east/west flights, would you agree that two planes leaving from the same city, one going east and one going west, will eventually meet up? Do you believe that people have sailed around the world to end up where they began?

Free, you can believe the freemasonry spinning ball and the story that we came from rocks from your classroom as a kid, or you can believe the Scriptures. It's a choice, and I promise the scripture will be true.

It's called indoctrination Free, because what they found in Operation High Jump and Deepfreeze really bothered them, before that Flat Earth was on the radio and in papers almost daily, Einstein's theory being contested because His theory made it all work by the Magic of something called gravity. The real test done prior showed a flat, none moving earth. They needed something to uphold the fact we are not special, and there is no God.

Bible EArth. Earth according to Scripture and How earth Works.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B--BD9lsZ13DS2VJd1dlTTRTVUk/view

The Bible does not teach that the earth is flat and there is no conspiracy, for the very common sense reason I have given.

 

[Free]

Some of the fine points are eluding me: How do the seasons work?

Ah, seasons. I had thought about this before and forgot to post on it. Right now, it is -25°C where I am and where I have a sister-in-law who is visiting from Brisbane, where it is currently +23°C. I also notice that the sun is significantly lower in the sky during winter, resulting in very short days of sunlight compared to spring and summer.

And I wouldn't be surprised if it is all rather consistent year-round at the equator.

I, too, am curious as to how that all works with a flat earth.