Bible Study WHERE DO PENTECOSTAL 'TONGUES' ACTUALLY COME FROM?

[chris overy]

well i think that lecoop. stated exactly what i am triing to say. who are we to be worried wether someone is triing to fake out the church with there worship. at that time is when we should be taking care of our own worship with god. brad yes i believe that people are doing that but we can not say for sure or point the finger at any of them as we do not know the hearts. god will make things right between us. he knows who is fake and who is not. jesus told a parrebal about the terrors in the wheat. he said to let them grow together and he would sort them out when it is time.

 

[SputnikBoy]

I am going to look up scriptures on speaking in toungues and share them with everyone.

That's a good idea, Chris.

You guys seem to be arguing without putting all the scripture about tongues together and studying them all as a whole.

This IS, unfortunately, the problem with Pentecostals. They take one text here, one text there, and attempt to make these texts fit their doctrine of 'tongues'.

We can not get the complete revelation of things from one or two verses.

Tell that to the Pentecostals. By the way, when you look to the scriptures regarding this topic, start with Luke 24:45-49. This is where Jesus tells the disciples to remain in Jerusalem where they will receive what the Father has promised ...the Holy Spirit. Prior to this Jesus commands them to preach the gospel to all nations. In order to do this they will either require a quick course in linguistics OR receive the help of the HS to enable them to speak the many languages required in order to begin 'the Great Commission'.

If tongues was only a different worldly language then about 70% of the world speaks in tongues.

That's right. Different languages (foreign languages) are what scriptural 'tongues' are ...NOTHING ELSE.

While you're looking through the scriptures, Chris, be sure to check out the Greek word for 'tongues' when used for 'speech'. You'll find that it's 'glossa'. Every time! Furthermore, you'll see that 'glossa' has NOTHING to do with either 'gibberish' or 'angels'. It simply means 'language' and a KNOWN language at that!

Anyone can go learn a language in school go to church and speak it and be called a Christian with the gift of tongues.

Well, at least this would be an example of GENUINE tongues! 'Languages' are what 'tongues' are, Chris.

However, that is contrary to the word of god as well.

WHAT is contrary to the Word of God?

Wide is not the road to salvation.

Perhaps words of wisdom but I'm not sure what that has to do with the topic.

 

[lecoop]

Okay, okay. Obviously, I'm in full agreement with Brad.

But, if we're to play the devil's advocate here (???) and go along with one's prayer at least being influenced by the Holy Spirit, could not the HS influence the prayer in such a way that the pray-er speaks in his/her own language so that he/she as well as God can understand? Why does the content of the prayer require unintellible utterances in order for it to be 'genuine'?

Besides that, Pentecostal 'tongues' are usually public displays and not in any way, shape, or form confined to prayer. Most babble on not even caring if there IS someone to interpret. Interpretation seems to be the least of their problems. But, in saying this, why would the HS go around in circles to arrive at the same point anyway? F'rinstance ...one speaks in 'tongues' to a congregation of English-speaking people. This requires an interpretation. The interpretation is relayed into English what was initially spoken in 'tongues'. Huh?

Sorry, this is just my rational mind taking over the issue again. I hate it when that happens.

Rational mind? Did you not read?

Romans 8:7
Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

Romans 12:2
And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

1 Corinthians 2:14
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

:wink: I guess you should hate it! We just cannot discern spiritual things with the natural mind. What did God say through Paul? "But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty..." Surely speaking "gibberish" is foolishness to the world. However, those that spend any amount of time praying in tongues, know better.

Have you ever used jumper cables to jump start a car, due to a dead battery? When you connect the cables to the dead battery, you can rub the clamps together, and just get tiny sparks, for the battery is dead. But don't try that with a fully charged battery! Sparks will fly! I used to have a neighbor that would connect two batteries together and weld with them! If someone prays in the spirit, they "edify" themself. In plain English, this is just like "charging up" a battery. I have spent hours praying in the spirit before preaching a sermon, and I have preached without much prayer of any kind. I can tell you, after a few hours of praying in the Spirit, you feel like you can run through a troop, and leap over a wall! Don't let any devil's get in your way!

So praying in tongues may well be foolishness to those that don't understand, but it is the power of God charging up a human spirit for ministry.

Indeed, the HS can cause [or help as a helper] a human spirit to speak in the learned language. In 60 years of living, I have seen only one preacher that could preach most of a sermon, straight from his spirit, in English. I have never seen another person able to do this. Actually, this is exactly what Paul had in mind when he used the Greek word, "propheteuo" from a base of "prophetes" where the KJV translates "prophecy" or "prophesieth." Theyer's says "to utter forth, declare, a thing which can only be known by divine revelation," among other ideas. When someone utters a prophecy as Paul discribes it, he will speak from his or her spirit, just as in tongues, but it will be spoken in the learned language, so that all present will understand. It is supernatural speach, just as tongues are supernatural speach. However, it takes more faith to prophecy in your learned language, for you know that all will be able to understand and judge your prophecy. The same could be said for interpreting a tongue: all can understand and judge.

This one man I spoke of, learned to "prophecy" an entire sermon, straight from his spirit man, in his learned language. In this case, the speaker has no idea what he will say until it is out of his mouth, and he hears himself speak! Why? As Paul says, when your spirit man is "connected" to your tongue, your understanding is unfruitful: you have no idea what you are saying. When someone prophecies under an unction from the HS, it is the same. Words come straight from the HS to the human spirit and are spoken out, bypassing the normal speaking part of the brain.

I have seen others go back and forth, with some prophecy, and some from understanding, during a sermon. To preach an entire sermon from the spirit takes years and years of praying in tongues. This same gentleman I am speaking of, when he preached, supernatural things always happened. One time I saw him point to a woman in a wheel chair, all knotted up with a very accute case of arthritus. He pointed to her, and said, "get up and dance!" He said this by and through the Spirit, as he was prophecying. She started moving very slowly, but within a minute, she was dancing like a teen-ager! It was a miracle, and was supernatural.

So, yes, God can cause someone to speak from their spirit in their learned language, but God HImself is the one that created "tongues." You will just have to wait and ask Him why. My guess is that it forces us to use faith. After all, faith is believing in something that our senses cannot grasp.

Do you frequent pentecostal churches? Is this where you are getting this information? Personally, in many pentecostal churches today, one never or seldom hears tongues. Fifty years ago, it would have been much different!
Do people where you attend all pray together? I mean, out loud, and together? This has been a practice in many churches for years. It is usually led by one person, who closes the prayer himself, after allowing the congregation to pray for a while. However, in churches that do this, the congregation is not praying out load during the sermon! That would be silly and would be confusion. No, there is a set time to pray, and the pastor, or leader says, "let us pray," or words to that effect, and they all pray.

So what is the difference, if the leader or pastor, says "let us pray," and some pray in English, and others pray in the spirit, in tongues? There is really no difference, and it is all prayer. Is this what you are speaking of when you say, "Most babble on not even caring if there IS someone to interpret. Interpretation seems to be the least of their problems.?" Perhaps it is during a time of prayer, and this is proper at that time.


However, if the preacher gets up to preach, and preaches in tongues, then we have a problem. So which is it?

why would the HS go around in circles to arrive at the same point anyway? F'rinstance ...one speaks in 'tongues' to a congregation of English-speaking people. This requires an interpretation. The interpretation is relayed into English what was initially spoken in 'tongues'. Huh?

As I said, you will just have to ask God about that. But you have said just what Paul discribes: "If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret."

Yes, the HS could have given someone a prophecy, and it would have been about the same as the interpretation. But God is the one that invented tongues, so you will just have to ask Him why. I have seen marvelous demonstrations of tongues and interpretation. And I have seen some at a kindergarten level! But they were both by the HS.

So please quite down your rational mind, and just believe what is written?

Coop

 

[lecoop]

Spunik Boy said

Tell that to the Pentecostals. By the way, when you look to the scriptures regarding this topic, start with Luke 24:45-49. This is where Jesus tells the disciples to remain in Jerusalem where they will receive what the Father has promised ...the Holy Spirit. Prior to this Jesus commands them to preach the gospel to all nations. In order to do this they will either require a quick course in linguistics OR receive the help of the HS to enable them to speak the many languages required in order to begin 'the Great Commission'.

You forget: they could have traveled and preached for years in any directions and Greek would have sufficied, thanks to Alexander! And you know you are stretching the scriptures to say this. You know by now that this is not how Paul describes tongues in his letter to the Chrinthians.

chris overy wrote:
[quote:82ae0]If tongues was only a different worldly language then about 70% of the world speaks in tongues.

That's right. Different languages (foreign languages) are what scriptural 'tongues' are ...NOTHING ELSE.

Sputik boy, You KNOW that this is not the tongues that Paul describes. It is only your own human reasoning. You know very well that you would NEVER preach for an hour, not knowing what you were speaking! Why then, do you keep repeating this unscriptural nonsense?

While you're looking through the scriptures, Chris, be sure to check out the Greek word for 'tongues' when used for 'speech'. You'll find that it's 'glossa'. Every time! Furthermore, you'll see that 'glossa' has NOTHING to do with either 'gibberish' or 'angels'. It simply means 'language' and a KNOWN language at that!

Again, sputnik boy, you know this is not what Paul wrote: it is your own ad libbing. You know by now that when Paul said tongues, he said that "no man understands," because it is a language made up "on the spot" by the HS. I know you can read! Once again, if it was a known language, then you would understand it just as you understand your learned language. But this is not what Paul is discribing. He said that the speaker's understanding is unfruitful. Once again, would you preach for an hour, not knowing what you are saying? Can you for once answer this question? If you would not, then you must understand that your idea of tongues is goofy, and not at all what Paul is saying.

chris overy wrote:

Anyone can go learn a language in school go to church and speak it and be called a Christian with the gift of tongues.

Well, at least this would be an example of GENUINE tongues! 'Languages' are what 'tongues' are, Chris. [/quote:82ae0]

Again, you know this is not what 1 Cor. tongues are all about. When someone learns a language, it is spoken out through the understanding, using the speach centers of our brains. I know you can read, so I know that you know your idea is goofy. Paul said that his tongues were his spirit praying. And you also know that he could not understand when he, Paul prayed in tongues. So again, why do you come up with these goofy human reasoning type answers, when you know they are against scripture?

Coop's answers in dard red.

 

[chris overy]

sorry you all i have not had much time to look up the scriptures on the toungues. i have seen many churches take one or two scriptures out of the bible and make it what they want. it is happening everywherei i just posted a thread on the churches of today on another forum. i will see if i can cut and paste it here for everyone.

 

[chris overy]

1 corinthians 14:2- for he who speaks in a tongue does not speakto men but to god, for no one understands him;however, in the spirit he speaks mysteries.

 

[chris overy]

1 corinthians 14:2- for he who speaks in a tongue does not speakto men but to god, for no one understands him;however, in the spirit he speaks mysteries.

 

[BradtheImpaler]

sorry you all i have not had much time to look up the scriptures on the toungues.

Don't waste your time - everyone here is familiar with all the scripture on tongues. My question runs deeper than the scripture, namely, how do you know any of it is for real?

 

[BradtheImpaler]

You don't worry or concern yourself with what others are doing. You seek God and receive the mighty baptism with the HS for yourself. When you speak in tongues, you will KNOW that it is the HS. How will you know? By faith, and by the inward witness of the HS. And then, you will notice that the moment you start to pray, it will be like you are transported into His very presense.

Been there...had that...eventually came to realize it was just psychological.

Now you can tell me "you didn't get the real thing cause if you did you would never deny it :wink:

 

[BradtheImpaler]

Brad, you may try, but you cannot fool the HS, and those in the meeting that are sensitive to Him will know immediately that what was spoken was not from Him. It would be as if someone threw ice cold water on the service. Been there and seen that.

How do you know all of your church is speaking what is "not from Him" and the guy you threw out was the only genuine one? But I strongly suspect that none of it is supernatural in origin, because there is no evidence that anything supernatural is transpiring. It's all baloney, and your judgement of it is laughably subjective :

 

[SputnikBoy]

While I respect you as a Christian and as a person, Coop, I have to agree with Brad on this.

Incidentally, I don't mean to EVER imply that those that are 'speaking in tongues' are somehow bad people or that some, even many, are not sincere in this belief.

But ...I DO believe that it's either a psychological phenomenon (as Brad said) or/and comes about through peer pressure/coercian and a strong desire to belong and be approved and be accepted by others of the same church or group. There would be little worse than the feeling of being left out when 'everybody else' is 'doing it' ...ESPECIALLY when 'tongues' is touted as being from the Holy Spirit. The very idea that others have an infilling of the Holy Spirit and you don't would be somewhat disconcerting.

So ...'tongues' becomes a prize to be sought after in whatever way this can be done. For the 'slow learners' ...'tongues' are actually TAUGHT to them by other members. You must know this, Coop. How, then, could someone who has just been taught 'tongues' by other members really believe that it's a gift of the Holy Spirit? But they do.

And, despite all of the references 'tongue-speakers' give from 1 Corinthians, these particular scriptures have NOTHING to do with Pentecostal 'tongues'. I would even go as far as to say that the majority of them ('tongue-speakers') have never even heard of these biblical texts until AFTER they believe they have this 'gift'. In other words, it's only when they need to defend 'tongues' to sceptics that they go to 1 Corinthians to try to justify this practice.

 

[lecoop]

Gentlemen, what you have discribed is this:

Mark 4:15
And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.

May I suggest that you read over Acts 2, Acts 8, Acts 10, and Acts 19 with an open mind. By that I mean allow yourself to agree with it. Read these out loud. It is written that faith comes by hearing. If you read these over about a hundred times, and allow yourself to agree with them, faith will come. However, if you read them with doubt, nothing will come but more doubt.

Start saying with your mouth, "Father, I believe your words on the baptism with the Holy Spirit, and I want the same experience that the apostles got."

Now, why would you want to say this? Because God says you can have what you say. (Mark 11:23)

Coop

 

[BradtheImpaler]

Gentlemen, what you have discribed is this:

Mark 4:15
And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.

May I suggest that you read over Acts 2, Acts 8, Acts 10, and Acts 19 with an open mind. By that I mean allow yourself to agree with it. Read these out loud. It is written that faith comes by hearing. If you read these over about a hundred times, and allow yourself to agree with them, faith will come. However, if you read them with doubt, nothing will come but more doubt.

Start saying with your mouth, "Father, I believe your words on the baptism with the Holy Spirit, and I want the same experience that the apostles got."

Now, why would you want to say this? Because God says you can have what you say. (Mark 11:23)

But you don't have what they had in Acts - that's the point. According to the accounts, people spontaneously spoke in languages they did not previously know while all or at least some of the hearers understood those languages and knew that the speakers did not. The babble which you practice would have had no effect on the day of Pentecost because it is only babble. What you have done is subscribe to an interpretation of tongues which does not necessitate anything miraculous occuring, because what you have is not miraculous.

Lets try an excercise in basic logic and see if you can catch at least a faint glimmer of the "light of reason"...

Why do you think that the easiest gifts to fake (tongues, interpretation of tongues, and prophecy) are the most prevelant "gifts" in Charismatic/Pentecostal circles?

 

[lecoop]

But you don't have what they had in Acts - that's the point. According to the accounts, people spontaneously spoke in languages they did not previously know while all or at least some of the hearers understood those languages and knew that the speakers did not. The babble which you practice would have had no effect on the day of Pentecost because it is only babble. What you have done is subscribe to an interpretation of tongues which does not necessitate anything miraculous occuring, because what you have is not miraculous.

Lets try an excercise in basic logic and see if you can catch at least a faint glimmer of the "light of reason"...

Why do you think that the easiest gifts to fake (tongues, interpretation of tongues, and prophecy) are the most prevelant "gifts" in Charismatic/Pentecostal circles?

You just THINK that what we have is different, because you lack both understanding and faith. What you missed is that Luke does not say that they spoke in these different and unlearned languages. You read that into the scripture, with preconceived glasses on. What Luke does say, is that the people heard in their own language: "and how hear we every man in our own tongue... and "...we do hear them speak in our tongues ... ." The miracle then, was on the part of the hearers, not the speakers: it was a hearing miracle, not a speaking miracle.

What did they hear them say? Was it an extended sermon or teaching? No, it was just praise to God: "we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God."

Do you think the speakers knew what they were saying? You would have to read between the lines to get that. But if we look in Paul's writings, we see that they in fact did not understand. So would you teach for an hour, not knowing what you were saying? I don't think so!

I know what you are getting at. It is difficult to fake a miracle, althougth some have tried, and got caught. I suppose that it is possible that someone could "fake" tongues. But why would they, when it is so easy to get the real thing? The problem is, you hear the real, and because of little faith, you think it is fake.

May I suggest you go back are re-read 1 Cor 14 again, this time, without preconceived glasses?

Coop

 

[BradtheImpaler]

You just THINK that what we have is different, because you lack both understanding and faith. What you missed is that Luke does not say that they spoke in these different and unlearned languages

The definition of the word "tongue" in Strong's Concordance...

"The language or dialect used by a particular people distinct from that of other nations"

Let us insert the definition into the text...

"And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other languages and dialects used by a particular people distinct from that of other nations, as the Spirit gave them utterance" (Acts.2:4)

So it is you who are reading something else into the text.

You read that into the scripture, with preconceived glasses on. What Luke does say, is that the people heard in their own language: "and how hear we every man in our own tongue... and "...we do hear them speak in our tongues ... ." The miracle then, was on the part of the hearers, not the speakers: it was a hearing miracle, not a speaking miracle

Oh, I see - the disciples were the ones baptized in the Spirit but the miracle was on the part of the unregenerate mob?

What did they hear them say? Was it an extended sermon or teaching? No, it was just praise to God: "we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God."

So what? The point is they understood what was being said. Now why don't you and your church, since you guys have the same thing they had in Acts, get a couple dozen people from other nations, who speak different languages, and you all jabber away in tongues for them and let's see if they all can understand you.

Do you think the speakers knew what they were saying? You would have to read between the lines to get that. But if we look in Paul's writings, we see that they in fact did not understand. So would you teach for an hour, not knowing what you were saying? I don't think so!

No, I said they did not know what they were saying. They did not know the language the Spirit enabled them to speak, but those that heard them did. If those that heard them didn't, the whole incident would be pointless, like what goes on in your church.

I know what you are getting at. It is difficult to fake a miracle, althougth some have tried, and got caught. I suppose that it is possible that someone could "fake" tongues. But why would they, when it is so easy to get the real thing? The problem is, you hear the real, and because of little faith, you think it is fake.

May I suggest you go back are re-read 1 Cor 14 again, this time, without preconceived glasses?

You suppose it is possible to fake tongues? I can't believe you are serious. Let me show you how easy it is...

"Shondar honda bongo bongo"

Okay, that nonsense I just made up fulfills all the criteria you require to qualify as the biblical gift of tongues. How so? Simple - I (the speaker) don't understand it and neither do you (the listener). Problem is, you can't see that that requirement requires no evidence whatsoever that anything supernatural is going on.

 

[lecoop]

The definition of the word "tongue" in Strong's Concordance...

"The language or dialect used by a particular people distinct from that of other nations"

Let us insert the definition into the text...

"And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other languages and dialects used by a particular people distinct from that of other nations, as the Spirit gave them utterance" (Acts.2:4)

So it is you who are reading something else into the text.

Quote:
You read that into the scripture, with preconceived glasses on. What Luke does say, is that the people heard in their own language: "and how hear we every man in our own tongue... and "...we do hear them speak in our tongues ... ." The miracle then, was on the part of the hearers, not the speakers: it was a hearing miracle, not a speaking miracle


Oh, I see - the disciples were the ones baptized in the Spirit but the miracle was on the part of the unregenerate mob?

Quote:
What did they hear them say? Was it an extended sermon or teaching? No, it was just praise to God: "we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God."


So what? The point is they understood what was being said. Now why don't you and your church, since you guys have the same thing they had in Acts, get a couple dozen people from other nations, who speak different languages, and you all jabber away in tongues for them and let's see if they all can understand you.

Quote:
Do you think the speakers knew what they were saying? You would have to read between the lines to get that. But if we look in Paul's writings, we see that they in fact did not understand. So would you teach for an hour, not knowing what you were saying? I don't think so!


No, I said they did not know what they were saying. They did not know the language the Spirit enabled them to speak, but those that heard them did. If those that heard them didn't, the whole incident would be pointless, like what goes on in your church.

Quote:
I know what you are getting at. It is difficult to fake a miracle, althougth some have tried, and got caught. I suppose that it is possible that someone could "fake" tongues. But why would they, when it is so easy to get the real thing? The problem is, you hear the real, and because of little faith, you think it is fake.

May I suggest you go back are re-read 1 Cor 14 again, this time, without preconceived glasses?


You suppose it is possible to fake tongues? I can't believe you are serious. Let me show you how easy it is...

"Shondar honda bongo bongo"

Okay, that nonsense I just made up fulfills all the criteria you require to qualify as the biblical gift of tongues. How so? Simple - I (the speaker) don't understand it and neither do you (the listener). Problem is, you can't see that that requirement requires no evidence whatsoever that anything supernatural is going on.
_________________
"Any doctrine that will not bear investigation is not a fit tenant for the mind of an honest man" (Ingersoll)

Ha ha! You are sooo funny! But you missed the main point. Babies go "ga ga." Adults sometimes make funny noises. However, none of the above fits the scripture: "as the Spirit gave them utterance." This is the part that just goes right over your head. Sure, anyone can make up any sound, but we, or at least I, am talking about tongues from the HS. Unless he gives the utterance, it is all flesh, and we might as well go home. However, I doubt if you could recognize Him, if he walked down the middle aisle with a red hat on. In most pentecostal churchs today, I believe what is happening is real tongues, as the Holy Spirit gives the utterance.

Case in point? My own church. Every Sunday we have a few people come to the alter to get born again. Some Sundays, it is 10 to 13 or so (I always count them) and sometimes, only two or three. Seldom do we have a Sunday that no one comes down. Now, why do people come to the front to get born again? One simple reason: the HS draws them. No Holy Spirit working, and guess what? No one comes down front to get born again.

Around the world, evangelism is growing fastest in pentecostal circles. For instance, Reinhard Bonke has had over one million signed confession statements in one service! Did you get that? Not in one year, or one month, but in one service!

So go on with your unblief. You can ever disguise it as being smart enough to know better than modern pentecostals. Any way you slice it, you will be missing out on the greatest blessing since regenertation. Meanwhile, the pentecostal movement around the world will be spreading the gospel at a dizzying pace!

You cannot pick and choose which scriptures on a subject to read. If you want the whole truth, you must use all the scriptures on a subject. Do you think the KJV translators were idiots? They decided to put in the word "unknown" for a reason. They understood, just as Paul did, that these were not languages from another place on planet earth, but a language created on the spot by the Holy Spirit. Neither can you just leave out Paul's definitions in chapter 14. He said, "no man understands" and "my understanding is unfruitful." This just does not fit your definition of tongues.

So it is you who are reading something else into the text.

NO, you said they spoke, but it is written that they heard. Go back and read it again. You only assume that they spoke.

the disciples were the ones baptized in the Spirit but the miracle was on the part of the unregenerate mob?

Of course! That is what the text says - if you could only believe it. God loved all those people, and wanted to get there attention.

As a matter of fact, I have had African people say that they heard me speak in their language. A preacher here in Tulsa, preaching in English, was heard in French by a visitor. It is not an uncommon thing.

Coop

 

[D46]

As a matter of fact, I have had African people say that they heard me speak in their language. A preacher here in Tulsa, preaching in English, was heard in French by a visitor. It is not an uncommon thing.

Coop

I can vouche for this. About fifteen years ago when I was going to a particular Apostolic Church, we had a couple from Russia who had been coming there for about six months...Nicholas and Svetlana I believe were their names. One evening when the spirit of God was moving and there was a near hush throughout the santuary except for a few speaking rather lowly in tonogues, Nick later told the congregation he didn't know some people could speak Russian there but, someone close to him was "speaking Jesus", in his words, in Russian as he understood completely.

 

[SputnikBoy]

As a matter of fact, I have had African people say that they heard me speak in their language. A preacher here in Tulsa, preaching in English, was heard in French by a visitor. It is not an uncommon thing.

Coop

I can vouche for this. About fifteen years ago when I was going to a particular Apostolic Church, we had a couple from Russia who had been coming there for about six months...Nicholas and Svetlana I believe were their names. One evening when the spirit of God was moving and there was a near hush throughout the santuary except for a few speaking rather lowly in tonogues, Nick later told the congregation he didn't know some people could speak Russian there but, someone close to him was "speaking Jesus", in his words, in Russian as he understood completely.

Did Nick tell the congregation of his 'hearing experience' in English? So why the need for someone to tell him of Jesus in Russian?

Sorry, these kinds of stories abound and actually prove nothing.

 

[SputnikBoy]

May I suggest you go back are re-read 1 Cor 14 again, this time, without preconceived glasses?

If ANYONE were to read 1 Corinthians 14 without wearing preconceived glasses, they would see quite clearly that ALL reference to 'tongues' are references to 'languages of the world (1 Corinthians 14:10-11)'

 

[GordonSlocum]

More On Tongues

(1) The Tongues of Acts are known languages. The people present a Pentecost were Jews.

(2) The Tongues of Acts were a sign to the Jews See I Cor 14

(3) The events in acts are transitional - The patterns are mixed

(4) The Tongues of I Cor. 12-14 are addressed by Paul because the local Church was engulfed in all kinds of problems.

(5) Notice in I Cor. 12-14 that tongues take center state and it was the least of the gifts. Why? They were imitating the real thing with an emotional high. Paul permitted it but said they needed an interpreter. Guess what no one can interpret a language that is not a know language that has meaning to the lost.

(6) Paul gently brings them back to the real purpose of Real Tongues in Chapter 14. Notice it say a witness to "this" people - Who are "this" people? The Jews.

(7) No where and absolutely no where are private, prayer tongues taught. List the Scripture.

(8) Lets say tongues was still a legitimate gift today. If it were it would be a real language. If a tongues was in a mixed crowd of people were the tongue was not understood then an interpreter was to translate so the ones not knowing the language would understand.

(9) Follow the real logic and teaching of what is said and get away from this false teaching which absolutely can not be backed up from any one Scripture in the Bible.

(10) Why are tongues never again mentioned outside I Cor. 12-14? Think about it. Not even Paul deals with it again, or Peter, or James, or John or Jude. Lets get off the false use of Tongues and get with the truth.

I challenge anyone anywhere at any time to produce a legitimate recording of a legitimate biblical application of Tongues as it was in Acts and as Paul outlined in I Cor 12-14. As someone else said if you can really prove it I will change. You know what you won’t and you can’t. I know that and you do to.

(11) By the way no interpreter was needed in Acts because of the 120 in the upper room that were speaking to these people form some 16 or so different languages spoke to them according to their language and they understood. Thank about what took place. Think about the propose of it according to the prophecy and who it was directed to.

(12) The same form of sound and utterances is practiced by pagan religions.


Linguist have studied these utterances for years and they are not a known language.

My personal experience. One of my professors, a linguist, now deceased, informed us in his class that all the studies he was aware of- not one revealed that the tongues was speaking in a real language. He said on several occasions where tongues were used and recorded it was cursing God not praising Him.

Now the un-intelligible, so call, prayer tongues is a personal ecstatic experience between you and God and is not a Biblical Tongue. It is your personal worship in private.

Please be honest and simply deal with facts from Scripture and your experience. Don't force you personal worship experience into Scripture. You have no proof. If you do state it clearly. I know you don't and you know you don't .

I had another professor who was a Charismatic for years and could speak in tongues at will. What did he say about it? It was fake. He could do it by inducing himself in an emotional state that made him feel good and he could simple speak gibberish. He is not the only person that has come forward and stated this.

The bottom line is there is no Scriptural backing for what is taking place today. Not one verse.

God Bless