Bible Study WHERE DO PENTECOSTAL 'TONGUES' ACTUALLY COME FROM?

[golfjack]

reply

Gordon, Here is a very good site that explains tongues:


http://www.tbm.org/tongues/htm



May God bless, golfjack

 

[D46]

(8) Lets say tongues was still a legitimate gift today. If it were it would be a real language. If a tongues was in a mixed crowd of people were the tongue was not understood then an interpreter was to translate so the ones not knowing the language would understand.

There's no "Let's say" to it. It was a gift from God as the Scriptures indicate.

Acts 2:39 (KJV) For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

Acts 8:17 (KJV) Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.

Acts 10:45-46 (KJV) And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God.

These last two instances were way after Pentacost and these tongues weren't for "evangelizing" purposes but was rather a gift of God. Who are we to question God and the gifts he bestows upon believers.

My personal experience. One of my professors, a linguist, now deceased, informed us in his class that all the studies he was aware of- not one revealed that the tongues was speaking in a real language. He said on several occasions where tongues were used and recorded it was cursing God not praising Him.

I think you need to get off your scholarly high horse and accept what God has given in his Word to us. Your professor, obviously to me, sounds like another one of those know it all "scholarly Alexandrians" who knew nothing of what he spoke of. The gift of tongues has been hashed and rehashed here and if you don't want this gift, don't worry...you won't receive it.

I have heard tongues audibly myself and sometimes they are not understood as the receipient of God's gift to them was known only to God as no man understood them.This IS biblical. I have at other times heard someone speak in tongues that was a KNOWN language, such as Russian. God can do what he wills with man's most untamable member.

1 Corinthians 14:2 (KJV) For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

What difference does it make it this is not brought up after Corinthians? It was made manifest in the book of Acts and Paul speaks of it again in Corinthians. How many more places is needed? I'd advise you to keep quite about something you obviously know little about before you end up blaspheming the Holy Ghost. Say you might not understand it all but, I'd be most careful- you're about to tread on thin ice with God.

 

[lecoop]

Re: More On Tongues

Coop's answers in color in quote.

(1) The Tongues of Acts are known languages. The people present a Pentecost were Jews.

Are you SURE? Paul disagrees with you. Yes, the tongues were HEARD in these languages, but Paul said that no man understands, not even the speaker in tongues. You see, if what you said was true, then it would be impossible to put these two scriptures together. It is clear in Acts that these people understood, yet Paul said that "no man understands."

(2) The Tongues of Acts were a sign to the Jews See I Cor 14

(3) The events in acts are transitional - The patterns are mixed

How do you get "transitional?" How long do you think it took for the Holy Spirit to get it right? Did He have to practice a few times, or for a few years, before He figured out how to get people born again, and filled with Himself?

(4) The Tongues of I Cor. 12-14 are addressed by Paul because the local Church was engulfed in all kinds of problems.

So? It is still scripture, God breathed.

(5) Notice in I Cor. 12-14 that tongues take center state and it was the least of the gifts. Why? They were imitating the real thing with an emotional high. Paul permitted it but said they needed an interpreter. Guess what no one can interpret a language that is not a know language that has meaning to the lost.

You are comparing apples and oranges. For the most part, Paul was speaking about the prayer language - not the gift to be used in a local body to bring a prophecy in tongues.

(6) Paul gently brings them back to the real purpose of Real Tongues in Chapter 14. Notice it say a witness to "this" people - Who are "this" people? The Jews.

Paul also shows us that a "real" purpose of tongues is to pray. It is always a prayer in His perfect will, for He is creating it.

(7) No where and absolutely no where are private, prayer tongues taught. List the Scripture.

"What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also...." Read it again in black and white. Don't even think that Paul is speaking about anything else here than tongues, for tongues are the context. Paul is saying that he will spend time praying without any understanding, in tongues."

(8) Lets say tongues was still a legitimate gift today. If it were it would be a real language. If a tongues was in a mixed crowd of people were the tongue was not understood then an interpreter was to translate so the ones not knowing the language would understand.

Again, Paul disagrees with you, and you KNOW Paul disagrees with you - yet you continue with your mis-information. Paul said, NO MAN UNDERSTANDS, and "the understanding is unfruitful." This means anywhere in the world, to any people group, no man will understand, for it is the human spirit praying, as the HS gives the utterance.

(9) Follow the real logic and teaching of what is said and get away from this false teaching which absolutely can not be backed up from any one Scripture in the Bible.

The real logic is just what Paul says: no man understands. It is really a simple concept, but you seem lost. It is a pray from the human spirit that bypasses the speach center. That is why Paul says "the understanding is unfruitful."

(10) Why are tongues never again mentioned outside I Cor. 12-14? Think about it. Not even Paul deals with it again, or Peter, or James, or John or Jude. Lets get off the false use of Tongues and get with the truth.

You will have to ask God that. I suspect it was so that we would have to have faith.

I challenge anyone anywhere at any time to produce a legitimate recording of a legitimate biblical application of Tongues as it was in Acts and as Paul outlined in I Cor 12-14. As someone else said if you can really prove it I will change. You know what you won’t and you can’t. I know that and you do to.

Ah! So you want someone to tempt God to perform a miracle just so that you can believe? Go back and read it again. It is written that they heard in their own language. The miracle was on the hearing end. They were speaking just as Paul said: gibberish that "no man understands." ACts 2 was an added miracle by the Holy Spirit, allowing the listeners to hear in their own language.

(11) By the way no interpreter was needed in Acts because of the 120 in the upper room that were speaking to these people form some 16 or so different languages spoke to them according to their language and they understood. Thank about what took place. Think about the propose of it according to the prophecy and who it was directed to.

And if as you say, the REAL tongues are some human language spoke somewhere else, then why would Paul say that "no man understands" & "he speaks to God," and that an interpretor would be needed for anyone to understand?

(12) The same form of sound and utterances is practiced by pagan religions.

Satan always has counterfits.

Linguist have studied these utterances for years and they are not a known language.

My personal experience. One of my professors, a linguist, now deceased, informed us in his class that all the studies he was aware of- not one revealed that the tongues was speaking in a real language. He said on several occasions where tongues were used and recorded it was cursing God not praising Him.

Now the un-intelligible, so call, prayer tongues is a personal ecstatic experience between you and God and is not a Biblical Tongue. It is your personal worship in private.

It IS a bible tongues, as Paul discribes in 1 Cor 14. As He said, "the understanding is unfruitful" and "no man understands."

Please be honest and simply deal with facts from Scripture and your experience. Don't force you personal worship experience into Scripture. You have no proof. If you do state it clearly. I know you don't and you know you don't .

Yes, please be honest with these scriptures, and believe them.

I had another professor who was a Charismatic for years and could speak in tongues at will. What did he say about it? It was fake. He could do it by inducing himself in an emotional state that made him feel good and he could simple speak gibberish. He is not the only person that has come forward and stated this.

The bottom line is there is no Scriptural backing for what is taking place today. Not one verse.

There are many, but you lack understanding and faith. And someone that has received the mighty baptism with the HS, can speak in tongues whenever he or she chooses to. The HS inside is ALWAYS ready!

God Bless

Coop's answers in color.

 

[SputnikBoy]

Re: More On Tongues

(1) The Tongues of Acts are known languages. The people present a Pentecost were Jews.

(2) The Tongues of Acts were a sign to the Jews See I Cor 14

(3) The events in acts are transitional - The patterns are mixed

(4) The Tongues of I Cor. 12-14 are addressed by Paul because the local Church was engulfed in all kinds of problems.

(5) Notice in I Cor. 12-14 that tongues take center state and it was the least of the gifts. Why? They were imitating the real thing with an emotional high. Paul permitted it but said they needed an interpreter. Guess what no one can interpret a language that is not a know language that has meaning to the lost.

(6) Paul gently brings them back to the real purpose of Real Tongues in Chapter 14. Notice it say a witness to "this" people - Who are "this" people? The Jews.

(7) No where and absolutely no where are private, prayer tongues taught. List the Scripture.

(8) Lets say tongues was still a legitimate gift today. If it were it would be a real language. If a tongues was in a mixed crowd of people were the tongue was not understood then an interpreter was to translate so the ones not knowing the language would understand.

(9) Follow the real logic and teaching of what is said and get away from this false teaching which absolutely can not be backed up from any one Scripture in the Bible.

(10) Why are tongues never again mentioned outside I Cor. 12-14? Think about it. Not even Paul deals with it again, or Peter, or James, or John or Jude. Lets get off the false use of Tongues and get with the truth.

I challenge anyone anywhere at any time to produce a legitimate recording of a legitimate biblical application of Tongues as it was in Acts and as Paul outlined in I Cor 12-14. As someone else said if you can really prove it I will change. You know what you won’t and you can’t. I know that and you do to.

(11) By the way no interpreter was needed in Acts because of the 120 in the upper room that were speaking to these people form some 16 or so different languages spoke to them according to their language and they understood. Thank about what took place. Think about the propose of it according to the prophecy and who it was directed to.

(12) The same form of sound and utterances is practiced by pagan religions.


Linguist have studied these utterances for years and they are not a known language.

My personal experience. One of my professors, a linguist, now deceased, informed us in his class that all the studies he was aware of- not one revealed that the tongues was speaking in a real language. He said on several occasions where tongues were used and recorded it was cursing God not praising Him.

Now the un-intelligible, so call, prayer tongues is a personal ecstatic experience between you and God and is not a Biblical Tongue. It is your personal worship in private.

Please be honest and simply deal with facts from Scripture and your experience. Don't force you personal worship experience into Scripture. You have no proof. If you do state it clearly. I know you don't and you know you don't .

I had another professor who was a Charismatic for years and could speak in tongues at will. What did he say about it? It was fake. He could do it by inducing himself in an emotional state that made him feel good and he could simple speak gibberish. He is not the only person that has come forward and stated this.

The bottom line is there is no Scriptural backing for what is taking place today. Not one verse.

God Bless

Very good post, Gordon. You just about covered it all. To the gullible (even the 'sincere' and the 'on fire' gullible) the scriptural savvy and the common-sense reasoning in your well constructed post will be ignored. But, that's only to be expected. 'Ecstatic experiences' don't have to revolve around 'logic' or even scriptural truths. They are what they are.

Just one 'flaw' in your post ... ;-) It's this one that Coop and the others missed:

"My personal experience. One of my professors, a linguist, now deceased, informed us in his class that all the studies he was aware of- not one revealed that the tongues was speaking in a real language. He said on several occasions where tongues were used and recorded it was cursing God not praising Him."

My question, if in all cases tongues were not recognized as a real language, how come your professor knew that, on occasions, tongues were cursing God and not praising Him ...?

I'm on your side. I just want the 'opposing team' to know that we're regarding this issue in a fair manner.

 

[BradtheImpaler]

Re: More On Tongues

Linguist have studied these utterances for years and they are not a known language

Yes, it is a conscious or sub-conscious mixing up of words in the speaker's native language. Some are better at it than others and can produce many "words". I have heard many that only repeat 2 or 3 words over and over, however, and many times they are the same or nearly the same words that others in their fellowship produce. It is very common to mimic this intentionally or unintentionally.

As far as reports of actual languages being spoken that the speaker does not know and that others have understood (as the story in Acts indicates) I take it with a grain of salt. If there are multiple people speaking in what they believe is tongues in a certain place there might occasionally be a word or 2 that sounds like an actual word in another language. This would be a small, and understandable coincidence. In general, also, when I was for many years active in fellowships which believed in the gifts of the Spirit I was used to hearing reports of miracles all the time - but I never came across one that I could fully substantiate.

 

[SputnikBoy]

There is so much questionable about the practices of the Pentecostal Movement that we need to be sceptical on just about everything ...'tongues', so-called 'interpretation of tongues', stories of 'miracles' as told by 'so and so' who was told by 'so and so' who was . . .

Jesus never behaved in this way and He never encouraged anyone else to do so either. Much of this kind of Christianity is little more than a 'show-biz' event and this is why they seem to be pulling in the crowds. It's a cheap day/night out for some.

 

[lecoop]

There is so much questionable about the practices of the Pentecostal Movement that we need to be sceptical on just about everything ...'tongues', so-called 'interpretation of tongues', stories of 'miracles' as told by 'so and so' who was told by 'so and so' who was . . .

Jesus never behaved in this way and He never encouraged anyone else to do so either. Much of this kind of Christianity is little more than a 'show-biz' event and this is why they seem to be pulling in the crowds. It's a cheap day/night out for some.

Sorry, but I have seen miracles with my own eyes, many times! I have seen deaf ears hear, blind eyes see, crooked legs made straight, maimed legs grow out, cancer patients walk free, pitifully crippled wheelchair victoms get up and dance, and become normal right before my eyes. I have seen countless devils cast out, and have cast many, many out myself. Miracles are suppose to be a part of the church. If you are not seeing them, then I would surely check up on the church you are attending! Do the signs of the believers follow the believers in your church? They will IF they believe!

Coop

 

[BradtheImpaler]

Sorry, but I have seen miracles with my own eyes, many times! I have seen deaf ears hear, blind eyes see, crooked legs made straight, maimed legs grow out, cancer patients walk free, pitifully crippled wheelchair victoms get up and dance, and become normal right before my eyes

Let's take one of these at random...how about the "pititfully crippled wheelchair victims"? Please provide a specific instance.

I have seen countless devils cast out, and have cast many, many out myself. Miracles are suppose to be a part of the church. If you are not seeing them, then I would surely check up on the church you are attending! Do the signs of the believers follow the believers in your church? They will IF they believe!

Now this is classic. You cannot even prove there are such things as "devils" yet you claim you have cast them out and then classify it as a miracle :P

 

[lecoop]

lecoop wrote:

Sorry, but I have seen miracles with my own eyes, many times! I have seen deaf ears hear, blind eyes see, crooked legs made straight, maimed legs grow out, cancer patients walk free, pitifully crippled wheelchair victoms get up and dance, and become normal right before my eyes

Let's take one of these at random...how about the "pititfully crippled wheelchair victims"? Please provide a specific instance.

I saw a woman at a meeting in a big city, USA. Her arms and hands (and supposedly legs also) were all knotted up with a bad case of arthritus. (I have seen several severe cases of Arthritus, and they all look the same.) The speaker pointer to her, and said, "I just saw a mini-vision of me pointing to you, and saying to you, 'rise up and dance.' Now, in a minute, I am going to act out just what I saw myself doing. When I point to you and command you to rise up and walk, I want you to be obedient to that vision, and get up out of that wheelchair, and dance."

Then he walked back over to her side of the platform, pointed to her, and commanded her to dance. She immediately started to move, but was very slow to start. I probably took her 30 seconds or more to get up enough she was clear of the wheelchair. She could barely stand, much less dance. But she was obedient to the vision, and started moving slowly. (you could not really call it a dance). But as she started moving, she started straightening out! Within about two minutes (a long time while someone is just watching) she was dancing as if she was 30 years old! That is just one out of many I could tell you about. However, you won't believe it anyway, so I won't bother to speak of another.

Quote by Coop:
[quote:13999]I have seen countless devils cast out, and have cast many, many out myself. Miracles are suppose to be a part of the church. If you are not seeing them, then I would surely check up on the church you are attending! Do the signs of the believers follow the believers in your church? They will IF they believe!

Now this is classic. You cannot even prove there are such things as "devils" yet you claim you have cast them out and then classify it as a miracle

Jesus cast out many devils. If you don't believe after reading the gospels, you are a hopeless case. I have had devils scream at me, out of the mouth of the person, and had them fall on the floor convulsing, just as Jesus had. Of course demons exist! Else the bible is all a lie, and we are doomed.
[/quote:13999]

Coop's answers in dark red.
_________________
"Any doctrine that will not bear investigation is not a fit tenant for the mind of an honest man" (Ingersoll)

 

[cyberjosh]

Gordon, I appreciate your scriptural approach to this issue, but if I may I would like to comment on your post and ask a few questions, and also point out a few things I disagree with or would like to amend to your post. I mean, this discussion is a process right, where we can discuss proper doctrine and interpretation. So God willing with us both taking a biblical approach we can reach an agreement.

(1) The Tongues of Acts are known languages. The people present a Pentecost were Jews.

Two points here. But before I mention them I will say that what you have said is not false, but also it is not all-inclusive and is only a partial consideration. First, tongues do indeed include known languages but we must hold the possibility of an unknown tongue (or tongues) in addition. Consider 1 Corinthians 14:2-3: "For one who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God; for no one understands, but in his spirit he speaks mysteries. But one who prophesies speaks to men for edification and exhortation and consolation." It could be interpreted that the mysteries are that of an unknown language, which only God would understand in essence. I won't push this first point too hard, because I can't even understand a natural tongue to compare it against an unknown tongue, but I still hold this as a possibility for the Scriptures do not disallow it.

Second point, the people present at pentecost were not just Jews. That much is obvious, because among them were, "Parthians and Medes and Elamites, and residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the districts of Libya around Cyrene, and visitors from Rome, both Jews and proselytes, Cretans and Arabs--we hear them in our own tongues speaking of the mighty deeds of God." (Acts 2:9-11) The sign is not limited to/for the Jews only, and God would never give believers a spiritual gift that could not edify the entire body of believers.

(2) The Tongues of Acts were a sign to the Jews See I Cor 14

I covered this one above.

(3) The events in acts are transitional - The patterns are mixed

Ok.

(4) The Tongues of I Cor. 12-14 are addressed by Paul because the local Church was engulfed in all kinds of problems.

Ok, true.

(5) Notice in I Cor. 12-14 that tongues take center state and it was the least of the gifts. Why? They were imitating the real thing with an emotional high. Paul permitted it but said they needed an interpreter. Guess what no one can interpret a language that is not a know language that has meaning to the lost.

What do you mean "real thing" and "imitational emotional high"? Paul did not permit or prohibit legitimate gifts, God made and gave the gifts (1 Corinthians 12:7-10). Interpretation of tongues goes hand in hand with speaking in tongues. If you are attempting to try to say that what happened at Pentecost is supposed to always be the case, the people miraculously hearing the meaning in their own language, then you are mistaken. That was a distinct miraculous event and was partially due to, as you said, the transitional element of the events in Acts.

And Joe Shmoe unbeliever who has a PHD in linguistics who knows 30+ languages and would happen to recognize one of the languages could not function in the same area as someone with the gift of interpretation of tongues (because that requires one to have the Holy Spirit in them). It would certainly be a witness to Joe Shmoe that you speak as fluently as he does in another language and don't even have a degree (because it would be a sign of God in you), but someone with the gift of interpretation is given the interpretation not from personal head knowledge but by miraculous giving of understanding to the person by the Holy Spirit to interpret it correctly.

(6) Paul gently brings them back to the real purpose of Real Tongues in Chapter 14. Notice it say a witness to "this" people - Who are "this" people? The Jews.

If that is a true assessment in context it would be merely circumstantial and not restrictive to just the Jews on an absolute scale, as I pointed out under your first point above.

(7) No where and absolutely no where are private, prayer tongues taught. List the Scripture.

Praying in a tongue is mentioned in 1 Corinthians 14:14, "For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful. "

As for the private aspect, that can be gleaned from a contrast given in 1 Corinthians 14:18-19, "I thank God, I speak in tongues more than you all; however, in the church I desire to speak five words with my mind so that I may instruct others also, rather than ten thousand words in a tongue. " Paul suggests here that he speaks in tongues (with abundance I might add) but not in the Church. When in the Church he would restrict himself so that he would speak intelligible words that would accomplich edification. So he perhaps excercised his tongues in abundance when he prayed. And prayer is also additionally often a personal thing. My Dad prays in tongues sometimes when by himself or when praying with my Mom, so I can attest to this.

(8) Lets say tongues was still a legitimate gift today. If it were it would be a real language. If a tongues was in a mixed crowd of people were the tongue was not understood then an interpreter was to translate so the ones not knowing the language would understand.

That is a statement rather than a real point, at least as I understood it. And yes that is what the person with the gift of interpretation of tongues is for.

(10) Why are tongues never again mentioned outside I Cor. 12-14? Think about it. Not even Paul deals with it again, or Peter, or James, or John or Jude. Lets get off the false use of Tongues and get with the truth.

Arguements from silence don't really work as well as you think they would from a doctrinal stand point. At any rate, tongues not being mentioned often is circumstantial and perhaps reveals a settling of the issue of proper usage of tongues in the Church, thus not necessary to bring it up again, especially since it is the least of the gifts. This specific point is seperate from the others above so let's try to keep it that way and not intertwine them.

(11) By the way no interpreter was needed in Acts because of the 120 in the upper room that were speaking to these people form some 16 or so different languages spoke to them according to their language and they understood. Thank about what took place. Think about the propose of it according to the prophecy and who it was directed to.

This is a composite of your #1 & #6 points, see my answers there.

(12) The same form of sound and utterances is practiced by pagan religions.

Not the first time the world has perverted an original good.

I had another professor who was a Charismatic for years and could speak in tongues at will. What did he say about it? It was fake. He could do it by inducing himself in an emotional state that made him feel good and he could simple speak gibberish. He is not the only person that has come forward and stated this.

Sure, but what necessitates the Charistmatic experience as representing the genuine gift? Of course you could emotionally induce yourself into it. But if you have the real gift such as my father and some of my friends do then you will see the genuineness of it and absolutely no ecstatic usage (because generally they only use it for intercessory prayer).


------------------------------------


If you disagree when you reply please do so in a kind manner as I have tried to do above. There are no hostilities abroad, so let us try to reason this out and back our assertions with Scripture when possible.

I look forward to your reply.

God Bless,

~Josh

 

[LionandLambMinistry]

My View on Tongues

The thing about tongues, as I see it, is not so much it's relevence whether real or not, but how it's being used in the Pentecostal Church as a requirement of salvation. This "doctrine" is one of the demonic doctrines of which Paul spoke. For it gives itself to works 8-)

 

[SputnikBoy]

Re: My View on Tongues

The thing about tongues, as I see it, is not so much it's relevence whether real or not, but how it's being used in the Pentecostal Church as a requirement of salvation. This "doctrine" is one of the demonic doctrines of which Paul spoke. For it gives itself to works 8-)

This is something that I've often wondered and I HAVE, in fact, asked the following question several times to no avail. An increasing number of Pentecostals make the bold statement that an infilling of the Holy Spirit in a 'born again Christian' is evidenced by the 'speaking of tongues'. So, in other words ...'speaking in tongues' = evidence of Spirit-infilling = saved. Alternatively, no 'speaking in tongues' = no evidence of an infilling of the Holy Spirit = lost.

I can never pin anyone down on this point. What say, Coop, or anyone else ...is 'speaking in tongues' a salvation issue within the Pentecostal Movement? If not then please explain WHY NOT if the Pentecostal belief is that being Spirit-filled (evidenced by 'speaking in tongues') is INDEED a necessity for one's salvation.

 

[cyberjosh]

This is something that I've often wondered and I HAVE, in fact, asked the following question several times to no avail. An increasing number of Pentecostals make the bold statement that an infilling of the Holy Spirit in a 'born again Christian' is evidenced by the 'speaking of tongues'. So, in other words ...'speaking in tongues' = evidence of Spirit-infilling = saved. Alternatively, no 'speaking in tongues' = no evidence of an infilling of the Holy Spirit = lost.

I can never pin anyone down on this point.

No, I agree with you that this is a wrong conception. This is actually what my roommate and I had a "civilized banter/spat" over last semester and it upset me so much that I did the most intense Bible study I've ever done for three days in a row until I got proper answers on the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and his dunamis power that is offered freely to all believers, spiritual gifts displayed or not.

 

[lecoop]

Re: My View on Tongues

This is something that I've often wondered and I HAVE, in fact, asked the following question several times to no avail. An increasing number of Pentecostals make the bold statement that an infilling of the Holy Spirit in a 'born again Christian' is evidenced by the 'speaking of tongues'. So, in other words ...'speaking in tongues' = evidence of Spirit-infilling = saved. Alternatively, no 'speaking in tongues' = no evidence of an infilling of the Holy Spirit = lost.

I can never pin anyone down on this point. What say, Coop, or anyone else ...is 'speaking in tongues' a salvation issue within the Pentecostal Movement? If not then please explain WHY NOT if the Pentecostal belief is that being Spirit-filled (evidenced by 'speaking in tongues') is INDEED a necessity for one's salvation.

SputnikBoy, the mighty baptism with the HS is a second definite work of the Holy Spirit (Language by John Wesley). Of course Jesus would not baptize someone with or in the Holy Spirit that had not first been born again! And it is at this mighty baptism that people speak in tongues.

The mighty baptism with the HS is the Holy Spirit UPON, while salvation is the HS WITHIN. These are TWO separate works of the HS for two separate purposes, the HS within baptises us into the body of Christ (no water needed), while the HS upon anoints us for ministry.

It is a sick, twisted doctrine of demons that states "the oneness of God," [as opposed to the trinity] and along with that, one MUST be baptized in "Jesus name only" or they are not saved, and along with that, if one does not speak in tongues, they are not saved. These are nothing but doctrines of demons, and I believe are taught by only one small group of pentecostals. The bible teaches nothing of these sick doctrines.

Coop

 

[D46]

It is a sick, twisted doctrine of demons that states "the oneness of God," [as opposed to the trinity] and along with that, one MUST be baptized in "Jesus name only" or they are not saved, and along with that, if one does not speak in tongues, they are not saved. These are nothing but doctrines of demons, and I believe are taught by only one small group of pentecostals. The bible teaches nothing of these sick doctrines.

Coop

I find this interesting in that you are either a "type" of Pentacostal, obviously a Trinitarian Pentacostal, or a Charasmatic. Which I'm not sure. I haven't heard that term until lately and thought all Pentacostal folks were of the oneness persuasion. So, you don't adhere to the oneness of the Godhead and believe that Jesus was God incarnate? I find that unusual in someone who so adamantly approves of speaking in tongues. From some of your posts, I have to assume you are some sort of Charasmatic who believes in the Trinity Doctrine from your statement as you seem to approve of faith healers like Reinhard Bonnke.

Around the world, evangelism is growing fastest in Pentecostal circles. For instance, Reinhard Bonke has had over one million signed confession statements in one service! Did you get that? Not in one year, or one month, but in one service!

I find this very hard to believe and in fact-don't. In ONE service? Must have been a humongous place to hole that many...even larger than a Billy Graham crusade. He's about like Benny Hinn is he not?

http://www.deceptioninthechurch.com/bonnkebelfast.html

I have seen others go back and forth, with some prophecy, and some from understanding, during a sermon. To preach an entire sermon from the spirit takes years and years of praying in tongues. This same gentleman I am speaking of, when he preached, supernatural things always happened. One time I saw him point to a woman in a wheel chair, all knotted up with a very accute case of arthritus. He pointed to her, and said, "get up and dance!" He said this by and through the Spirit, as he was prophecying. She started moving very slowly, but within a minute, she was dancing like a teen-ager! It was a miracle, and was supernatural.

Sorry, but I have seen miracles with my own eyes, many times! I have seen deaf ears hear, blind eyes see, crooked legs made straight, maimed legs grow out, cancer patients walk free, pitifully crippled wheelchair victoms get up and dance, and become normal right before my eyes. I have seen countless devils cast out, and have cast many, many out myself. Miracles are suppose to be a part of the church. If you are not seeing them, then I would surely check up on the church you are attending! Do the signs of the believers follow the believers in your church? They will IF they believe

This sounds like "Charasmania" to me with a lot of spirits working but, whose is the question. I don't doubt God has the capability to do these things and has at times I'm sure. I question the validity of the statement "If you're not seeing them, then I would surely check up on the church you are attending!" That's a fanciful statement and needs to be taken with a grain of salt. I often wonder how many people are paid to pretend to be wheel chair ridden and have demon possession in order to validate the power of a given evangelist such as some I have seen/heard about on TBN Strange they always seem to have "catchers" behind them when they fall so the receipient of this miracle can't sue the station in the event they break something.. Do you watch TBN? Are you an advocate of such practices as they teach? Seen any gold dust lately falling from the ceiling? If so, I can see the reasoning behind these posts as they sound very "TBNish."

 

[lecoop]

This sounds like "Charasmania" to me with a lot of spirits working but, whose is the question. I don't doubt God has the capability to do these things and has at times I'm sure. I question the validity of the statement "If you're not seeing them, then I would surely check up on the church you are attending!" That's a fanciful statement and needs to be taken with a grain of salt. I often wonder how many people are paid to pretend to be wheel chair ridden and have demon possession in order to validate the power of a given evangelist such as some I have seen/heard about on TBN Strange they always seem to have "catchers" behind them when they fall so the receipient of this miracle can't sue the station in the event they break something.. Do you watch TBN? Are you an advocate of such practices as they teach? Seen any gold dust lately falling from the ceiling? If so, I can see the reasoning behind these posts as they sound very "TBNish."

D46, I wonder if you read the bible! Have you not read that Jesus said, "the works that I do, you shall do also, and greater works than these shall you do, for I go to my Father." And then Mark 16, the signs of the believer. This is not my idea, but it is God's idea of what should take place when believers get together.

As for Mr. Bonke, you can believe or not believe, as you choose. However, in some meetings in Africa, he has had several million in attendance. I have seen pictures of such meetings, and the heads just go on until they are the size of the point of a pin, and disappear. However, if you REALLY want to be stretched, search for the man that rose from the dead in the basement of a church, while Bonke was preaching upstairs!

Then perhaps you could do some research on T.L. Osborn. People say that he has preached face to face to more people than anyone in the world.

What kind of Pentecostal am I? I am the bible kind. I believe the bible. I received the baptism with the HS in an Assembly of God church. However, I have not attended an AG church in many years. I am non-denominational now, but am Word of Faith, as I attend the "mother" church in Broken Arrow OK.

Coop

 

[BradtheImpaler]

The way you have formatted prevents me from using quotes for you. I will address your post in general...

First of all the woman with arthritis. Do you know for certain that this woman was unable to get out of that wheelchair at all? No, not only did you not know that, but you didn't even know for sure that her legs were in bad shape. Secondly, do you know that this woman is now healed and no longer needs a wheelchair? Furthermore, do you even know that she needed a wheelchair to begin with? No. You took the whole faith healing "set - up" by faith. Except that is not faith on your part, it is gullibility. I know because I used to have that kind of "faith" too until I realized that all was not as it seemed and I was too easily fooled. Your qualifications for what constitutes a miracle are dreadfully minimal. No doubt that woman got out of that wheelchair everytime she got a little excited and that's all that happened in the meeting.

Now about the "devils"...

You believe demons have screamed at you out of the mouth of the afflicted. Of course, you again take it on faith that that was not the person screaming out of their own mouth which is what any sensible person rooted in the real world would have to assume unless there was supernatural evidence to the contrary which there was not. But wait! They fell on the floor and convulsed :o Well, that proves it I guess? Nobody falls to the floor and convulses under their own power - it had to be a demon! :roll:

Finally, your comment that "demons exist else the bible is all a lie and we are doomed". Now we see clearly why you believe these things. Because you cannot face the prospect of death (death as in cessation of consciousness/non-existence) But that is only a reason to want to believe the bible, not an evidence that these things are true.
_________________
"Any doctrine that will not bear investigation is not a fit tenant for the mind of an honest man" (Ingersoll)[/quote]

 

[D46]

What kind of Pentecostal am I? I am the bible kind. I believe the bible. I received the baptism with the HS in an Assembly of God church. However, I have not attended an AG church in many years. I am non-denominational now, but am Word of Faith, as I attend the "mother" church in Broken Arrow OK.

Word of Faith...that explains some of my questions already...name it and claim it-blab it and grab it. Yep, I understand now.

I attend the "mother" church in Broken Arrow OK.

The Catholic Church is the "Mother Church"...what's wrong with you, girl?

However, if you REALLY want to be stretched, search for the man that rose from the dead in the basement of a church, while Bonke was preaching upstairs!

What was a dead man doing in the basement of the church? There were probably many more upstairs.

 

[lecoop]

The way you have formatted prevents me from using quotes for you. I will address your post in general...

First of all the woman with arthritis. Do you know for certain that this woman was unable to get out of that wheelchair at all? No, not only did you not know that, but you didn't even know for sure that her legs were in bad shape. Secondly, do you know that this woman is now healed and no longer needs a wheelchair? Furthermore, do you even know that she needed a wheelchair to begin with? No. You took the whole faith healing "set - up" by faith. Except that is not faith on your part, it is gullibility. I know because I used to have that kind of "faith" too until I realized that all was not as it seemed and I was too easily fooled. Your qualifications for what constitutes a miracle are dreadfully minimal. No doubt that woman got out of that wheelchair everytime she got a little excited and that's all that happened in the meeting.

Now about the "devils"...

You believe demons have screamed at you out of the mouth of the afflicted. Of course, you again take it on faith that that was not the person screaming out of their own mouth which is what any sensible person rooted in the real world would have to assume unless there was supernatural evidence to the contrary which there was not. But wait! They fell on the floor and convulsed :o Well, that proves it I guess? Nobody falls to the floor and convulses under their own power - it had to be a demon! :roll:

Finally, your comment that "demons exist else the bible is all a lie and we are doomed". Now we see clearly why you believe these things. Because you cannot face the prospect of death (death as in cessation of consciousness/non-existence) But that is only a reason to want to believe the bible, not an evidence that these things are true.
_________________
"Any doctrine that will not bear investigation is not a fit tenant for the mind of an honest man" (Ingersoll)

[/quote]

I have said before that some would not recogize the Holy Spirit if He came down the center Isle with a red hat on. I can say about the same thing to you: you would not believe a miracle if it stared you in the face.

I was standing very close to a man, since I was an usher, that went up in a wheel chair. He said he was a medical doctor, and I believed him. He had been in a bad auto accident, and his thigh had been crushed. Three inches of his thigh bone had been removed, and that leg was three inches shorter than the other one. He had a shoe, with a huge three inch sole, to make up for it. He said he was in constant pain. I saw the man that operated in the gift of miracles hold the leg up so we all could see. You did not have to be close to see that one leg was three inches shorter than the other. The speaker ask him if he had faith to be healed. He said he did not! Then the speaker ask if there was any in the audience that did not believe God would heal him. Two teen girls in my section raised their hands, so he asked them to come to the front. He handed each the microphone after asking them if they could see that one leg was three inches shorter. They said, yes, they could see it. Then he asked them again if they believed that God would heal him. They both said no. Then again, he asked the man if he believed God would heal his leg. AGain, the man said no. The speaker said, if I was going to push your car to start it, what would you have to do? The man said, push in the clutch, or put it in neutral. The speaker then said, will, you go into neutral, and don't resist or fight against me- just stay in neurtal. I have enough faith for all of you. With that said, he grabbed both the man's legs, and said, here comes your healing.

Instantly, and I mean, instantly, so fast that not one person saw the leg move, instanly that short leg was just as long as the other! The man leaped up, shouting, and through his built up shoe off the side of the platform, where there were no people, and started dancing a jig! There was no doubt in any person's mind at that moment that God had performed a miracle. But the teen girls started crying.

Then again, there was a man that prayed for deaf people. I knew where there was a school for the deaf, so I invited them. I think about seven boys came, all born deaf. When the speaker prayed for them, they all received healing, and all could speak what the preacher whispered into their ears. Keep in mind, because they were all born deaf, they could not speak either!

My sister became friends with one of them, and they dated a few times. This boy had to learn to speak, and he did, over time. He kept his healing. All the others lost theirs. But then, none of the others attended church, and this one did.

Then again, the preacher's wife at one church I attended, had a crooked leg. It was twisted so that her right foot pointed towards her left foot, instead of forward. I was right beside her when the evangelist prayed for that leg. All of us heard the bones start popping, and all of us saw that crooked leg turn towards the front! It took perhaps one second! We had all watched her hobble around, and if you think she did this "on purpose," forget it! No one could keep their leg in that position for long, unless the bones were crooked!

Have you ever seen a person with a bad case of arithritus? They have huge knots on their knuckles. Their hands are really deformed. How in the world would someone "fake" that? I saw the knots. This lady's hands were very deformed, as was her back. We all saw these thing become normal within one or two minutes. It was not faked.

Why would a friend try to fake a demon? That would make no sense at all. No, it was truly a miracle. He started breathing hard, his hands came up like claws, he suddenly had a fierce look on his face, like he wanted to claw out my eyes out. His brother ran to the door! I refused to let fear get me, and I got my nose right up to his, and commanded that spirit to come out. Suddenly he stiffened up like a board, let out a blood curdling scream, and slid off my couch onto the floor! In about one second, it was gone. It was real. It was a demon. After it was gone, he told us how this demon had affected him. It was a spirit of doubt. I have cast this same spirit out several times, and each time it went out the same way, with a stiff body and a scream. Believe it!

Then there was a girl that was deathly affraid of the dark. I was visiting the family, and laid my sleeping bag out on the floor. I noticed that the hall light was on, so I switched it off, and intantly this girl started screaming in fright. Her mother came out, and explained that she was affraid of the dark, and I would have to leave the light on. I told her I could change her girl, if she would trust me. I think the girl was about 4 years old. She agreed, and I just laid her down on my chest as I was laying on my back. I started commanding a spirit of fear to come out. Soon she was shaking from head to foot. I asked her why she was shaking, but she did not know. I asked her if she could stop, and she said no. I kept on commanding this spirit to leave, and after about 30 minutes, she quit shaking. She went back to bed (she had always slept back to back to mom.) and I turned out the light. She made not a sound. The next morning, the mom said that the girl said, after the light was out, "I suppose I should be affraid, but I'm not!" She went right to sleep.

I did much deliverance for a period of about 10 years, and saw many such deliverances. I kept at it, in spite of MUCH criticism, because I saw people change.

But then, you would not believe if a miracle stared you in the face. Truly, I feel sorry for you. It would be the pits to have zero faith.

The bible is true, for it is God's word. It would be true whether or not you or I believed it. I believe it, and it is too late for you to change that. I was born again at 7, and knew I was born again. I knew the HS was inside me. I received the mighty baptism with the HS, when I was 20, and I knew that I was changed, and that the HS was upon me. How could one have God in and on them and NOT know it? He has spoken to me MANY times. Yes, it is too late for your doubt to change me.

Coop

 

[lecoop]

What was a dead man doing in the basement of the church? There were probably many more upstairs.

Go here and see.

http://www.deceptioninthechurch.com/Res ... chukwu.htm

His wife took him, in a casket! She would not give up on him, but believed.

Coop