Where is the justice?????????

[Bubba]

Is the "next age with life in Christ" eternal, everlasting, never-ending? Does this verse (Mt. 25:46) refer to the "next age with life in Christ"? If "yes" to both of these questions, then how on earth can you say the word "aionios" does NOT mean eternal in this context???

According to Catholic theology at the moment of conception we are created as ETERNAL BEINGS. That's when we "begin eternity". It is our nature, that's the way we are created. When we die, we are raised and spend eternity either in Heaven or Hell.

Dadof10,
In the next age for the believer (I believe) begins the moment they die physically, yet this age that they are now in is not the final age. I would agree that because of God’s spirit we are eternal, but we do not become complete until all sin and death (for everyone else) has been done away with and then at this point we start eternity with no more ages. This would be the point in our journey that we now have glorified bodies and dwell in the New Heavens and Earth for eternity with no end (aidios).
The SDA’s believe in “soul sleep†and “annihilation†and only the believer becomes immortal due to God’s Spirit dwelling in them when physically resurrected, which may cause some “frustration†to you and confusion since you are addressing both thoughts (SDA and UR) on this thread. I read a book called the “Two Views of Hell†by a guy name Fudge who believes in Annihilation that challenged my traditional view of Hell. That was a few years ago and as you know I now am a Universalist.
Bubba

 

[francisdesales]

I was going to give you my opinion why I believe you are wrong in respect to the verses you explained and then I came to the last point you made. I have tried to give you a good explaination for the unpardonable sin not being a issue in a future age, but you are not willing to receive what I wrote.

Jesus says that the unforgiveable sin will not be forgiven in future ages, as well. What can I say? Apologize for what Christ said plainly? You are denying the plain words of Jesus.

I will give you something you may ponder on, could not the Pharasees (Jews) unpardonable sin be in reference to the age of the Law that they were in when they spoke such a sin and in the following Church age still held true, in that very few Jews have come to know Jesus, especially the Orthodox Jew? So, in essence their refusal to receive Jesus even today, means they are still under the curse of unbelief and still believing the works of the Spirit (Jesus) were not the works of God.

OK. Let's look at the context, because yet again, you twist God's Word to suit your preconceived notions...

He that is not with me is against me, and he that does not gather with me scatters abroad. Therefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men, but the blasphemy [against] the Spirit shall not be forgiven unto men. And whosoever speaks a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him, but whosoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this age, neither in the [age] to come. Either make the tree good and its fruit good, or else make the tree corrupt and its fruit corrupt; for the tree is known by [its] fruit. O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks. The good man out of the good treasure of the heart brings forth good things, and the evil man out of the evil treasure brings forth evil things. Mat 12:30-35[/quote]

Clearly, Jesus is not speaking of your arbitrary distinction between a "age of the law" and an "age of the Church". Jesus is speaking of the wicked and the corrupt, NO MATTER WHEN. Either before or after the Incarnation. The tree is known by its fruit, which has nothing to do with the "church" vs the "law". No doubt, these axioms that Christ speaks of were available to the Jews even before the Incarnation, because we have numerous righteous people noted in the Old Testament.

By HIS works, Christ is known. And so, the words of the unbeliever who remains hard of heart will NOT convert, in this age or the next and will be condemned. Those who reject Christ are ALREADY CONDEMNED, according to John 3. No talk about age of law vs age of church.

The age of the Law and the age of the Church are arbitrary distinctions. Jesus didn't come to abolish the Law, but fulfill it. Even if you deny this, the Gospels make it clear that denying Christ, in whatever age you want to call it, is a rejection of the Father who sent the Son. Rejecting the Father. Where does the Bible tell us, again, that the wicked unbelievers will be forgiven by God? Where is the precedent in the Old Testament? The New Testament? Where is the unrepentant unbeliever forgiven by God BEFORE a conversion?

Again, you are inventing something that the Scriptures just do not support.

Read Romans 11...

Yes, that even the wild, grafted bud can be sawn off and destroyed. The Gentiles are not guaranteed salvation in heaven, just as the Jews are not. God is not a respecter of persons.

do not boast against the branches. But if thou boast, [know] that thou dost not bear the root, but the root thee. Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off that I might be grafted in. Good; because of [their] unbelief they were broken off, but thou by faith art standing. Do not be highminded, but fear that if God did not forgive the natural branches, neither shall he forgive thee. Behold, therefore, the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity, but toward thee, goodness if thou continue in [his] goodness; otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. Romans 11:18-22

I do not see how this does anything but strengthens my point. Those who remain in unbelief will not be forgiven. Ever. They will be cut off. The unholy shall not enter into the presence of heaven. Neither Jews or Gentile convert.

Regards

 

[Bubba]

Francisdesales quotes from Mt.
He that is not with me is against me, and he that does not gather with me scatters abroad. Therefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men, but the blasphemy [against] the Spirit shall not be forgiven unto men. And whosoever speaks a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him, but whosoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this age, neither in the [age] to come. Either make the tree good and its fruit good, or else make the tree corrupt and its fruit corrupt; for the tree is known by [its] fruit. O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks. The good man out of the good treasure of the heart brings forth good things, and the evil man out of the evil treasure brings forth evil things. Mat 12:30-35."

24But when the Pharisees heard this, they said, "It is only by Beelzebub,[d] the prince of demons, that this fellow drives out demons."
You seem to forget the context of this passage in that after Jesus healed a man the Pharisees made this statement (verse22). Just as in the Old Testament there have been many dispensations or ages such as the Adamic age, Noah age, the Law and etc. In the passage you quote from Jesus spoke of two; this age of the Law or the 1st Advent, and the one to follow the New covenant or Church age. He could have also meant this physical life and the life after death, prior to His Second coming and the New Heavens and earth. It is your preconceive notions that make either premise not possible.

Bubba wrote:
Read Romans 11...



I do not see how this does anything but strengthens my point. Those who remain in unbelief will not be forgiven. Ever. They will be cut off. The unholy shall not enter into the presence of heaven. Neither Jews or Gentile convert.

At the time of Jesus’ 1st Advent the Pharisees in particular and the Jews in general did not receive Jesus as their Messiah (1st age). Thus during the time of the Gentiles (2nd age) “a stupor†was placed on them to keep them from believing.

7What then? What Israel sought so earnestly it did not obtain, but the elect did. The others were hardened, 8as it is written:
"God gave them a spirit of stupor,
eyes so that they could not see
and ears so that they could not hear,
to this very day."[d] 9And David says:
"May their table become a snare and a trap,
a stumbling block and a retribution for them.
10May their eyes be darkened so they cannot see,
and their backs be bent forever."[e]

Yet, there will come but another age when the “time of the Gentiles is done†and the Jews will all be saved.

11Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. 12But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their fullness bring!
25I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. 26And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:
32For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all. Bubba

 

[francisdesales]

But when the Pharisees heard this, they said, "It is only by Beelzebub,[d] the prince of demons, that this fellow drives out demons."
You seem to forget the context of this passage in that after Jesus healed a man the Pharisees made this statement (verse22). Just as in the Old Testament there have been many dispensations or ages such as the Adamic age, Noah age, the Law and etc.

You seem to have forgotten that I already said such "ages" are entirely artificial. There is no such separation in the Scriptures, the "Adamic age", "Noah age", etc... Where does the Bible define these ages? Which verse describes the various "ages" or "dispensations"??? It is Scriptural interpreters (who are not infallible, nor are they inerrant) that make such divisions. And again, this "law age". We are still under the Law - the Law of Love... So are you proposing a "law part II age"???

The fact of the matter is that certain sin will not be forgiven in ANY age. Why? No precedent in Scriptures for the forgiveness of unrepentant sins. In this age or the age to come does not mean there is some distant age that sin WILL be forgiven! That is your invention that cannot be gleaned from these Scriptures. Jesus clearly says "now" and the "age to come" without your qualification.

As to the Jews being saved - it refers to the Jewish people as a whole, not every individual Jew.

Regards

 

[Bubba]

Francisdesales wrote;
You seem to have forgotten that I already said such "ages" are entirely artificial. There is no such separation in the Scriptures, the "Adamic age", "Noah age", etc... Where does the Bible define these ages? Which verse describes the various "ages" or "dispensations"??? It is Scriptural interpreters (who are not infallible, nor are they inerrant) that make such divisions. And again, this "law age". We are still under the Law - the Law of Love... So are you proposing a "law part II age"???

Hopefully you can realize that during the time of Adam there was an age of no sin or death, now there is an age with both. In the time of Noah there was in age when it did not rain and God destroyed the world, now we are in an age where it rains all over the earth and God said He will never again destroy the earth with water. The Old Testament age with all it sacrifices was the shadow of the substance of the New Testament age of Jesus' sacrifice one time and for all time sacrifice for sin.

The fact of the matter is that certain sin will not be forgiven in ANY age. Why? No precedent in Scriptures for the forgiveness of unrepentant sins. In this age or the age to come does not mean there is some distant age that sin WILL be forgiven! That is your invention that cannot be gleaned from these Scriptures. Jesus clearly says "now" and the "age to come" without your qualification.

I believe in what ever age one finds himself, to become a believer there will be repentance. In the next age for those who did not know Jesus, it will be after purification through fire that they will willingly receive Jesus. This is due to the dross no longer being there, just like Lazarus and the rich man, the rich man in Hadies was concerned for his brothers that they would not have to experience what he now knew was true.
Bubba

 

[St Francis]

....In the time of Noah there was in age when it did not rain...

You don't actually believe that, do you?

 

[Bubba]

....In the time of Noah there was in age when it did not rain...

You don't actually believe that, do you?

St Francis,
Yes, I do believe that this was the first rain upon the earth when the canopy above let loose upon the earth. Even if one does not believe that this was the first rain, it was nonetheless the age that God destroyed all of mankind saved those in the Ark. Those who were not righteous (Francisdesales claims they were;"Refers to Christ's descent into hell to preach to the righteous dead of the OT'") whom Jesus visited while in Hades with the Gospel (1Peter 3:19-20 and 4:6).
Bubba

 

[dadof10]

This would be the point in our journey that we now have glorified bodies and dwell in the New Heavens and Earth for eternity with no end (aidios).

You can use the word "aidios" to describe "New Heavens and Earth for eternity with no end" if you want to, but Scripture only uses this word twice, and NEVER referring to "New Heavens and Earth". The word that describes "eternal life" is "aionios". Nice try.

The SDA’s believe in “soul sleep†and “annihilation†and only the believer becomes immortal due to God’s Spirit dwelling in them when physically resurrected, which may cause some “frustration†to you and confusion since you are addressing both thoughts (SDA and UR) on this thread.

Bubba, your WORDS are confusing me. Here are the contradictory propositions that you hold:

1) The word in the Mathew 25:46 is "aionios", which means "age-lasting".
2) Matthew 25:46 claims "the righteous will go into age-lasting life".
3) The righteous will have "eternal Life".
4) The verse above refers to "eternal life".
5) You say: "No "aionios" does not mean eternal before "life" in Mt. 45:46, it means that the believer will go into the next age with life in Christ."
6) "The next age with life in Christ" is ETERNAL.

My confusion and frustration is a DIRECT result of not being able to follow your pretzel-like theology, not and misunderstanding about UR vs. SDA.

 

[francisdesales]

Hopefully you can realize that during the time of Adam there was an age of no sin or death

Wrong. First, Adam committed the first sin with his wife Eve. Secondly, don't you recall the story of Cain and Abel???

In the time of Noah there was in age when it did not rain

Where does the bible say such a thing??

The Old Testament age with all it sacrifices was the shadow of the substance of the New Testament age of Jesus' sacrifice one time and for all time sacrifice for sin.

You finally said something I can agree with.

I believe in what ever age one finds himself, to become a believer there will be repentance.

And some will not want to repent, and thus, they are not believers... You are making a tremendous assumption that ALL MEN will eventually repent. ALL of Satan's angels will repent. SATAN HIMSELF will repent... I do not find any support in Scriptures for that. The time for repentance is before we die. After that, it will be too late.

In the next age for those who did not know Jesus, it will be after purification through fire that they will willingly receive Jesus.

Perhaps. But for those who know about Jesus and reject Him? They are condemned, according to Christ. Condemned doesn't mean that they are forgiven, in my understanding.

This is due to the dross no longer being there, just like Lazarus and the rich man, the rich man in Hadies was concerned for his brothers that they would not have to experience what he now knew was true.

And was the rich man in hell forgiven? Where is your evidence that this man got out? Do we find evidence that the man knew he was saved and it was only a matter of time? Abraham's words (a chasm separates us) are pretty definitive. The man's attitude is clear.

He ain't goin' nowhere...

Regards

 

[Bubba]

Dadof 10,
I believe that the next life for both believers (sheep) and non-believers (goats) is not the last age. Where the confusion may come from, is that all of mankind is eternal, but in this age those who do not know Jesus will go into “age lasting†or “age during†period of correction. This period could be relatively short or long, depending on the sins committed. Those who do know Jesus go into “age lasting†or “age during†period with the Lord waiting for the consummation of all things, which includes the reconciliation of those who are be refined or going through correction. When this period is done, there will be no more sin or death in the world, there will be new world and heaven, we will have all glorified bodies, and every knee will bow in awe and admiration of God in worship.
1 Corinthians 15:22-28 , “for even as in Adam all die, so also in the Christ all shall be made alive,
23and each in

his proper order

, a first-fruit Christ, afterwards those who are the Christ's, in his presence, [those who know Jesus in this present age of physical life are first fruits, then those at His Second coming, include those in correction and those spiritually already with Jesus]
24then -- the end [all of mankind reconciled], when he may deliver up the reign to God, even the Father, when he may have made useless all rule, and all authority and power --
25for it behoveth him to reign till he may have put all the enemies under his feet --
26the last enemy is done away -- death;
27for all things He did put under his feet, and, when one may say that all things have been subjected, [it is] evident that He is excepted who did subject the all things to him,
28and when the all things may be subjected to him, then the Son also himself shall be subject to Him, who did subject to him the all things, that God may be the all in all.
Bubba

 

[Bubba]

Francisdesales wrote:
Wrong. First, Adam committed the first sin with his wife Eve. Secondly, don't you recall the story of Cain and Abel???
There was an age prior to the Fall that did not include sin or death.
Bubba wrote:
In the time of Noah there was in age when it did not rain


Where does the bible say such a thing??

The Scriptures speak of the waters coming from the ground, possibly fog or a mist (Gen. 2:5-6) and a canopy of water in the firmament which some believe was at least part of the reason people live a long time prior to the world wide flood, due to this canopy creating a near constant temperature and filtering out ultra violet rays. Yet, as I wrote St. Francis it was nonetheless the age that God destroyed all of mankind except those in the Ark with a worldwide flood, if you do not want to believe that this was the first rain.

And some will not want to repent, and thus, they are not believers... You are making a tremendous assumption that ALL MEN will eventually repent. ALL of Satan's angels will repent. SATAN HIMSELF will repent... I do not find any support in Scriptures for that. The time for repentance is before we die. After that, it will be too late.

And was the rich man in hell forgiven? Where is your evidence that this man got out? Do we find evidence that the man knew he was saved and it was only a matter of time? Abraham's words (a chasm separates us) are pretty definitive. The man's attitude is clear.

He ain't goin' nowhere...

We will simply have to disagree with one another. I believe there are many Scriptures which speak to a reconciliation of the whole human race both in the Old Testament and New. I put about 100 or so a while back that I thought spoke to UR and the moderators removed them.
Bubba

 

[francisdesales]

The Scriptures speak of the waters coming from the ground, possibly fog or a mist (Gen. 2:5-6) and a canopy of water in the firmament which some believe was at least part of the reason people live a long time prior to the world wide flood, due to this canopy creating a near constant temperature and filtering out ultra violet rays.

That does not mean there was no rain until Moses, Bubba!!! Again, you are jumping to unwarranted conclusions, no doubt based upon already held beliefs that force you to make such conclusions rather than just reading the Scriptures through common sense.

Sorry, God created plants that require rainwater to live...

We will simply have to disagree with one another. I believe there are many Scriptures which speak to a reconciliation of the whole human race both in the Old Testament and New. I put about 100 or so a while back that I thought spoke to UR and the moderators removed them.
Bubba

I haven't seen any that convince me, nor have you convinced me that the unforgiveable sin will be forgiven. Unforgiveable sin means it is not forgiven, and the verse does not give an end of when this sin is no longer "unforgiveable".

Regards

 

[St Francis]

....In the time of Noah there was in age when it did not rain...

You don't actually believe that, do you?

St Francis,
Yes, I do....

Do you believe there was a talking serpent in a garden too?

 

[Bubba]

St. Francis and Francisdesales,
Yes, I do believe that the serpent actually spoke. Once you start questioning the actual accounts of Scripture in Genesis, where do draw the line, after the 11th chapter?
The plants were supplied water from the ground (Gen,2:5-6)and probably from the air, many believe the conditions were very tropical, but it does not really matter what you believe about the first rain, it was nonetheless an age prior to the Flood.
Bubba

 

[francisdesales]

St. Francis and Francisdesales,
Yes, I do believe that the serpent actually spoke. Once you start questioning the actual accounts of Scripture in Genesis, where do draw the line, after the 11th chapter?
The plants were supplied water from the ground (Gen,2:5-6)and probably from the air, many believe the conditions were very tropical, but it does not really matter what you believe about the first rain, it was nonetheless an age prior to the Flood.
Bubba

First of all, it is not necessary to take a literal snake talking as fact. The writer MAY have intended that the story be metaphorical regarding the externals. The fact the writer WANTS to portray is that Satan is shrewd as a snake and tempts men by twisting the truth.

As to the "first rain", you said it hadn't rained UNTIL the flood. I find that utterly ridiculous. Genesis 2 doesn't state that the "water from the ground" supplied plants with needed water for years and years without water from the sky UNTIL NOAH...

Frankly, this conversation is getting pretty silly.

Regards

 

[dadof10]

Dadof 10,
I believe that the next life for both believers (sheep) and non-believers (goats) is not the last age. Where the confusion may come from, is that all of mankind is eternal, but in this age those who do not know Jesus will go into “age lasting†or “age during†period of correction. This period could be relatively short or long, depending on the sins committed. Those who do know Jesus go into “age lasting†or “age during†period with the Lord waiting for the consummation of all things, which includes the reconciliation of those who are be refined or going through correction. When this period is done, there will be no more sin or death in the world, there will be new world and heaven, we will have all glorified bodies, and every knee will bow in awe and admiration of God in worship.
1 Corinthians 15:22-28 , “for even as in Adam all die, so also in the Christ all shall be made alive,
23and each in

his proper order

, a first-fruit Christ, afterwards those who are the Christ's, in his presence, [those who know Jesus in this present age of physical life are first fruits, then those at His Second coming, include those in correction and those spiritually already with Jesus]
24then -- the end [all of mankind reconciled], when he may deliver up the reign to God, even the Father, when he may have made useless all rule, and all authority and power --
25for it behoveth him to reign till he may have put all the enemies under his feet --
26the last enemy is done away -- death;
27for all things He did put under his feet, and, when one may say that all things have been subjected, [it is] evident that He is excepted who did subject the all things to him,
28and when the all things may be subjected to him, then the Son also himself shall be subject to Him, who did subject to him the all things, that God may be the all in all.
Bubba

OK, thanks. I could get this explanation off any one of the UR websites. So, you're not even going to try to reconcile those contradictory statements? Nice talking with you, Bubba.

God bless, Mark

 

[Bubba]

First of all, it is not necessary to take a literal snake talking as fact. The writer MAY have intended that the story be metaphorical regarding the externals. The fact the writer WANTS to portray is that Satan is shrewd as a snake and tempts men by twisting the truth.

As to the "first rain", you said it hadn't rained UNTIL the flood. I find that utterly ridiculous. Genesis 2 doesn't state that the "water from the ground" supplied plants with needed water for years and years without water from the sky UNTIL NOAH...

Frankly, this conversation is getting pretty silly.

Francisdesales ,
Such haughtiness and condescension is not very becoming, but even someone as yourself is going to be mighty surprise at the depth of God’s love at the end of this age you presently exist in.
Grace, Bubba

 

[Bubba]

OK, thanks. I could get this explanation off any one of the UR websites. So, you're not even going to try to reconcile those contradictory statements? Nice talking with you, Bubba.

God bless, Mark

Mark,
I really do not see them as contradictory, I gave you what I believe is true. One day will see things as they really are and I think we will be greatly impressed with our God.
Bubba

 

[dadof10]

One day will see things as they really are and I think we will be greatly impressed with our God.

I already do, and I already am.

 

[Bick]

Francisdesales quote:
'You seem to have forgotten that I already said such "ages" are entirely artificial. There is no such separation in the Scriptures, the "Adamic age", "Noah age", etc... Where does the Bible define these ages? Which verse describes the various "ages" or "dispensations"??? It is Scriptural interpreters (who are not infallible, nor are they inerrant) that make such divisions. And again, this "law age". We are still under the Law - the Law of Love... So are you proposing a "law part II age"???'

MY RESPONSE: Hi Francis. If you have access to a literal translation of the Bible, and other tools such as a lexicon or concordance, then you can verify what I will set forth.

I believe you are in agreement that "age" is a proper translation for "aion" in the Greek. I prefer to use "eon" , it being a transliteration of the Greek into English. And then "eonian" can be a single word for the adjective form of "eon" the noun.
And that it might be defined as 'an indefinite long period of time'.

You are correct in that "ages" in the Bible are not given names. But, to realize that God has set forth the ages as a scaffold and canvas, if you will, to hold the masterpiece painting (to continue the metaphor), of his purpose for the eons.

In the Scriptures there are at least seven distinct divisions mentioned: pre-eonian, post-eonian, and five eons themselves.
First, there was a time when there were no eons. In Titus 1:2 we are told that God promised us life BEFORE eonian times. The KJV has it before the world began.
In 2 Timothy 1:9 we read of God's purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus BEFORE eonian times.
In 1 Corinthians 2:7 we are told of God's wisdom in a secret, which has been concealed, which God designates BEFORE the eons for our glory.

Thus, we can conclude that God promised all these things BEFORE there were any eons.
Then, since we read of eons, they must have been made, and, yes, they were, as we read in Hebrews 1:2: :God, in the last of these days, speaks to us in a Son, through whom He makes the eons. While we cannot see them all, yet, here is how the Scriptures help us to arrive at the number.
Galatians 1:4 tells us that Christ gave himself for our sins, that He might deliver us out of the PRESENT WICKED EON. So, we know there must be at least on eon.

In Colossians 1:26 we are told of a secret which has been concealed FROM THE EONS. Since that is plural, there cannot be less than three eons: This present eon, and these eons past.

Then, in Ephesians 2:7 we find that God will be displaying the transcendent riches of His grace in His kindness to us through Christ Jesus, and this display will take place in the ON-COMING EONS.
Since "eons" is plural, there must be at least two eons to come in the future.

This makes a minimum five eons (ages) in all.

Each eon begins and each eon ends. And there will come a time when God's eonian purpose is complete and the eons will end, as stated in Hebrews 9:26, "..yet now, once, at the CONCLUSION OF THE EONS for the repudiation of sin through His sacrifice, has He been manifested." CV.

This conclusion occurs whenever God has put all enemies under the feet of Jesus Christ who has been reigning over all, and with all subject to Christ, the last enemy being abolished is death, then Christ will be giving up the kingdom to His God and Father, being then subject to Him, that God may be all in all.

Then, the kingdom will be without end.

There is much more to fill in, but maybe this will be a start. It is up to you.