Where is the justice?????????

francisdesales · Oct 24, 2008

Bubba said:
Such haughtiness and condescension is not very becoming, but even someone as yourself is going to be mighty surprise at the depth of GodÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s love at the end of this age you presently exist in.
Grace, Bubba

Haughtiness? I have been putting up with this silly conversation long enough, listening to your invented scenarios about ages... And now, you claim God didn't make it rain until the time of Noah so as to invent some silly thing about the "Age of Adam" and the "Age of Noah"... This is all a desperate attempt to convince yourself that no one is going to be condemned to satisfy your idea of political correctness, apparently. I suppose God must fit your idea of God, despite what He has told us about Himself.

You think that God's love will require Him to save those who reject Him? Quite the contrary. I think your idea of love is not Biblical in the slightest. And who here said that God does NOT love those who are condemned? You STILL have not shown me one verse that tells me God will forgive those who choose not to repent. WHERE does the Bible say that the wicked will universally repent? What does the wrath of God mean in Romans 1? The Bible tells us that God is a passionate God. I don't think you understand what "passion" means.

Regards

francisdesales · Oct 25, 2008

Bick said:
You are correct in that "ages" in the Bible are not given names. But, to realize that God has set forth the ages as a scaffold and canvas, if you will, to hold the masterpiece painting (to continue the metaphor), of his purpose for the eons.

In the Scriptures there are at least seven distinct divisions mentioned: pre-eonian, post-eonian, and five eons themselves.

Based upon what reference does the Scriptures speak of THE AGE, necessitating a "pre" and "post" and five eons...???

"Ages" is just a long time, not a set historical time, like the Hellenistic Age that historians come up with to distinguish a period and frame of reference.

Bick said:
First, there was a time when there were no eons. In Titus 1:2 we are told that God promised us life BEFORE eonian times.

That merely means that God's plan existed "before" time, if I can use the word "before" when dealing with such things... Not a reference to the "Jurassic age" or whatever...

Bick said:
The KJV has it before the world began.
In 2 Timothy 1:9 we read of God's purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus BEFORE eonian times.
In 1 Corinthians 2:7 we are told of God's wisdom in a secret, which has been concealed, which God designates BEFORE the eons for our glory.

Before time. Yes.

I still am not seeing the "Adamic age" and "Noahic Age" from Scriptures explicitly. Technically, there is no "age" before creation, since time itself is a creation of God. But to set aside a "Patriarch" age, and a "Joshua" age and a "Kings" age and a "fall of Jerusalem" age is strictly interpreters trying to divide Scriptures by historical periods. They are of no concern to the people actually living in that day. The Scriptures do not make such explicit references.

Bick said:
Galatians 1:4 tells us that Christ gave himself for our sins, that He might deliver us out of the PRESENT WICKED EON. So, we know there must be at least on eon.

I am not denying that we live in an "age". A period of time. But again, this doesn't mean there are "other" ages where everything is different. Like in one age, there is no rain. Or another where the unforgiveable sin is suddenly universally forgiven. That is the point of this argument. That the unforgiveable sin is not forgiven in this age or the next - but maybe the third or fourth age it will be (although there is absolutely no way someone can legitamately interpret that from what Christ actually says since it is an invention that is unsupported anywhere else). Where do we find that in the "third age", sin is forgiven of everyone? Where do we find the date marked so the poor souls can know that when this third age begins, all is good and even if they reject God, all is good between Him and the wicked????

I always thought that the wicked will not see God - and yet, magically, the wicked will be brought together with God in this third age, I don't know, maybe 527 AD?

Do the people of Scripture times keep a calendar so they know what "age" they live in???

The whole idea of naming ages is a historical convention applied to periods of time AFTER THE FACT. They are historical tools used to distinguish between historical events, not calendar periods that people of the time knew "oh, the sixth age is coming to an end next week. Let's have a party and welcome in the seventh age..."

Regards

St Francis · Oct 25, 2008

francisdesales said:
...I have been putting up with this silly conversation long enough...

I haven't been in it as long as you, but long enough to agree - it is silly. The whole thing seems to be based on a total misunderstanding of what hell actually is.

dadof10 · Oct 25, 2008

St Francis said:
The whole thing seems to be based on a total misunderstanding of what hell actually is.

This whole thing and all the other misinterpreting of truth is more due to to a misunderstanding of how God gave the deposit of faith to the believers. He founded and guides a CHURCH to teach His Truth and from that Church came Scripture.

All this stems from the false, man-made, heretical doctrine of sola-Scriptura. God NEVER meant for His Truth to be taught and learned by self interpretation of Scripture ALONE.

That said, I think I'm preaching to the choir. ;-)

God Bless, Mark

Rick W · Oct 25, 2008

I think back to the Garden where Adam and Eve disobeyed God and death came into the world. Many fear death, the punishment for man's rebellion against God.
Then He gives people His Law. Doesn't do much good and God is merciful and loving, He gives His one and only Son.

Death we know. Big warning there. So God warns us again, if you don't turn to Him from your rebellious ways not heeding the warning of death then judgment will fall upon you of everlasting punishment.
If that means those who continue to rebel, even after the warning of death, will just be as they were before they were born, nothing, then the first warning was all for nothing. And if all will gain everlasting life regardless if they believe Christ or not then the second warning of what's to come is all for nothing.

Rebel once, suffer death. Rebel twice and don't worry about it, nothing bad is going to happen... you'll feel or be nothing at all or you'll have everlasting life with God.
Somehow that doesn't make sense.
:smt102

dadof10 · Oct 25, 2008

Rick said:
I think back to the Garden where Adam and Eve disobeyed God and death came into the world. Many fear death, the punishment for man's rebellion against God.
Then He gives people His Law. Doesn't do much good and God is merciful and loving, He gives His one and only Son.

Death we know. Big warning there. So God warns us again, if you don't turn to Him from your rebellious ways not heeding the warning of death then judgment will fall upon you of everlasting punishment.
If that means those who continue to rebel, even after the warning of death, will just be as they were before they were born, nothing, then the first warning was all for nothing. And if all will gain everlasting life regardless if they believe Christ or not then the second warning of what's to come is all for nothing.

Rebel once, suffer death. Rebel twice and don't worry about it, nothing bad is going to happen... you'll feel or be nothing at all or you'll have everlasting life with God.
Somehow that doesn't make sense.
:smt102

Good point, which brings us back to the OP, "where's the justice" in that? That's not even how we raise our kids, why would some think that's how God would deal with us?

St Francis · Oct 25, 2008

dadof10 said:
St Francis said:

The whole thing seems to be based on a total misunderstanding of what hell actually is.

Click to expand...

This whole thing and all the other misinterpreting of truth is more due to to a misunderstanding of how God gave the deposit of faith to the believers. He founded and guides a CHURCH to teach His Truth and from that Church came Scripture.....

Well, of course. But try to get a protestant to understand THAT

Rick W · Oct 25, 2008

We could go back to something that has already occurred, the Flood.
Was there justice in that? He shed His wrath on everyone... women, children and everything else that walked or crawled.
We can debate God's judgment all day long but in the end he is sovereign whether we like it or not.
Where is the justice that death should come into the world? By our ways of thinking why should we have to pay for the sin of Adam and Eve... wasn't our fault, heck, we weren't even there.
People continue to rebel even when faced with the absolute certainty they are going to die. In the face of death they say there is no God, there is no punishment while all along they bear the same punishment as all mankind for sin. Death.
Christ demonstrated that punishment of death will not be revoked. He died on the cross. He also demonstrated the way to life, belief in what he accomplished, resurrection from the dead. Maybe He should have proven what happens if one doesn't believe instead? Would that convince anyone the more?

Bick · Oct 26, 2008

Framcisdesales quote"
"Based upon what reference does the Scriptures speak of THE AGE, necessitating a "pre" and "post" and five eons...???

"Ages" is just a long time, not a set historical time, like the Hellenistic Age that historians come up with to distinguish a period and frame of reference."

Of course, the word "age" is used in a number of ways: the age of a person, an animal, the Age of Dinosaurs, the Hellenistic Age, etc. And, in the Scriptures, as in secular writings, its meaning has to be derived from its context.

Do you have access to other versions other than, say, the KJV? How can we, or the Church Fathers, interpret the true meaning if the word "aion" is translated in a number of ways?

For instance, looking at Titus 1:2 again in a few different versions:

KJV: "..In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began."

NIV: "..a faith and knowledge resting on the hope of eternal life which God, who does not lie, promised before the beginning of time."

RSV: " in hope of eternal life which God, who never lies, promised ages ago.."

Young's Literal Translation: "..upon hope of life age-during, which God, who doth not lie, did promise before times of ages."

There are others, but this will suffice. As I laid out in my previous post, "aion" or "age" is not used in a casual, mystical way, but in its context it is referring to a specific period (though, granted, for an unknown length of time, except for the millennium.

Many places Jesus refers to "this age": Mat. 12:32; 13:22; Mk. 4:19; Lu. 16:8, 20, and 34;
"for the age": Mat. 21:19; Mk. 11:14; Jn. 12:34; and 13:8;
"from the age": Lu. 1:70;
"out of the age": Jn. 9:32;
"conclusion of the age": Mat. 13:39, 40, 49; 24:3;
"the coming age": Mk. 10:30; Lu. 18:30;
"that age": Lu. 20:35; and some others.

Tell me, how should I interpret these passages?

Bick

St Francis · Oct 27, 2008

Bick said:
Tell me, how should I interpret these passages?

Within the context of the living tradition of the Church
http://www.vatican.va/archive/catechism ... a2.htm#III

francisdesales · Oct 27, 2008

Bick said:
There are others, but this will suffice. As I laid out in my previous post, "aion" or "age" is not used in a casual, mystical way, but in its context it is referring to a specific period (though, granted, for an unknown length of time, except for the millennium.

Many places Jesus refers to "this age": Mat. 12:32; 13:22; Mk. 4:19; Lu. 16:8, 20, and 34;
"for the age": Mat. 21:19; Mk. 11:14; Jn. 12:34; and 13:8;
"from the age": Lu. 1:70;
"out of the age": Jn. 9:32;
"conclusion of the age": Mat. 13:39, 40, 49; 24:3;
"the coming age": Mk. 10:30; Lu. 18:30;
"that age": Lu. 20:35; and some others.

Tell me, how should I interpret these passages?

None of them appear to be refering to a "formal" age, say, from 350 BC to 200 BC. It just refers to a non-specific period of time, either a long time ago, the present time, or the future. The writers are not refering to a specific historically distinct period, a.k.a the "Adamic age"...

Regards

RND · Oct 27, 2008

St Francis said:
Bick said:

Tell me, how should I interpret these passages?

Click to expand...

Within the context of the living tradition of the Church
http://www.vatican.va/archive/catechism ... a2.htm#III

"The task of giving an authentic interpretation of the Word of God, whether in its written form or in the form of Tradition, has been entrusted to the living teaching office of the Church alone. Its authority in this matter is exercised in the name of Jesus Christ."47 This means that the task of interpretation has been entrusted to the bishops in communion with the successor of Peter, the Bishop of Rome."

What tripe!

Eph 1:3 Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly [places] in Christ:

St Francis · Oct 27, 2008

RND said:
What tripe!..........

....says the man who observes Old Testament legalisms.

Shouldn't you be polishing your menorah or something?

RND · Oct 27, 2008

St Francis said:
....says the man who observes Old Testament legalisms.

So did Jesus!

Shouldn't you be polishing your menorah or something?

Don't have one. Shouldn't you be praying to graven images or something?

St Francis · Oct 27, 2008

So did Jesus!

He was Jewish. DUUHHHHHH

RND said:
Don't have one. Shouldn't you be praying to graven images or something?

Catholics don't mess with that stuff. If you spent some time in the real world instead of your SDA propganda booklets, you would know that.

Have a nice day.

dadof10 · Oct 27, 2008

RND said:
"The task of giving an authentic interpretation of the Word of God, whether in its written form or in the form of Tradition, has been entrusted to the living teaching office of the Church alone. Its authority in this matter is exercised in the name of Jesus Christ."47 This means that the task of interpretation has been entrusted to the bishops in communion with the successor of Peter, the Bishop of Rome."

What tripe!

"The second coming of Christ will happen between March 21, 1843, and March 21, 1844. Oh...No wait...It'll be on October 22, 1844 (in the seventh month of the Jewish calendar). Dang!!! Wrong again..."

Probably what William Miller, founder of the SDA's said.

"In my books, the truth is stated, barricaded by a Ã¢â‚¬ËœThus saith the Lord.Ã¢â‚¬â„¢ The Holy Spirit traced these truths upon my heart and mind as indelibly as the law was traced by the finger of God upon the tables of stone." Letter 90, 1906.

"In these letters which I write, in the testimonies I bear, I am presenting to you that which the Lord has presented to me. I do not write one article in the paper expressing merely my own ideas. They are what God has opened before me in vision--the precious rays of light shining from the throne." Testimonies 5 p. 67.

""When the judgment of the General Conference, which is the highest authority that God has on earth, is exercised private independence and private judgment MUST NOT be maintained, but must be surrendered." Testimonies 3 p. 492."

Actual quotes from EGW

"It is from the standpoint of the light that has come through the Spirit of Prophecy (Mrs. WhiteÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s writings) that the question will be considered, believing as we do that the Spirit of Prophecy is the only infallible interpreter of Bible principles, since it is the Christ, through this agency, giving real meaning of his own words." G.A. Irwin, General Conference President, from the tract The Mark of the Beast, p. 1.

On February 7, 1887, the General Conference passed the following resolution -- "That we re-affirm our binding confidence in the Testimonies of Sister White to the Church, as the teaching of the Spirit of God." SDA Year Book for 1914, p. 253

Talk about your cow-bellies :lol

:

RND · Oct 27, 2008

St Francis said:
He was Jewish. DUUHHHHHH

So? Is that a reason for not doing the things He taught?

1Jo 2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

BTW, Luke was a gentile and he kept the sabbath. So did lots of Greeks that heard the word of God.

Catholics don't mess with that stuff. If you spent some time in the real world instead of your SDA propganda booklets, you would know that.

Have a nice day.

Graven images are very important to the Roman religion.

The PietÃƒÂ and other Graven Images.

Why Don't Protestants Venerate Images?

The Feast of the Immaculate Conception A Roman Catholic Holy Day of Obligation - December 8th.

St Francis · Oct 27, 2008

LOL

:

RND · Oct 27, 2008

dadof10 said:
"The second coming of Christ will happen between March 21, 1843, and March 21, 1844. Oh...No wait...It'll be on October 22, 1844 (in the seventh month of the Jewish calendar). Dang!!! Wrong again..."

Probably what William Miller, founder of the SDA's said.

Maybe. But at least they had the right attitude that when they were wrong they decided to go back and re-read the scriptures to understand the truth.

"In my books, the truth is stated, barricaded by a Ã¢â‚¬ËœThus saith the Lord.Ã¢â‚¬â„¢ The Holy Spirit traced these truths upon my heart and mind as indelibly as the law was traced by the finger of God upon the tables of stone." Letter 90, 1906.