Where Is the Lake of Fire?

[jgredline]

Oh my goodness, I can't even answer that without sounding callous and you know I still love you bro, but you do wear a patch over one eye, man... so you leave me speechless. :


;-)

:

 

[Drew]

Drew..I am happy that you mentioned it is only your opinion, because the bible clearly teaches eternal torment where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth... :o

Please do not expect the readers to believe that my view of what the scriptures teach is an opinion while yours is not. Unless you have some supernatural power that I do not have, your views on what the Bible says are no more or no less "opinions" than mine.

Ok...And everyone else is welcome to join in....
Lets take a ''different'' approach to this....Lets ''SUPPOSE/ PRETEND'' for a second your right...and we are wholeistic beings, and those who are not saved will get sent to hell where they will be burned until destroyed...Now this could take seconds, minutes, weeks, months, billions of years, whatever the number we choose, according to your and other annihilist beliefs, the fire will eventually destroy us.....thus annihilated....

There is a major flaw with this...It is called ''matter'' ...As I was helping my 7 year old son and daughter (twins) with their science project on the properties of fire, I was reminded, that ashes and even the smoke and gases that are unseen are ''matter''....They are comprised of atoms and molecules, etc...

So guess what, Your theory just went up in smoke..... 8-)

This is not really a very good argument.

The fact that the principle of conservation of matter ensures that matter is not really destroyed does not detract from the significance of the use of the metaphor of fire - in particular it significance as an agent that destroys and does not preserve.

Of course, the writers of the Scriptures were not physicists, nor were they writing for physicists. They were living in the world of commonly accessible experience and, in that world, fire is seen as an agent of destruction, not an agent whereby things are transformed.

Unpleasant though it may be to envisage, let's think about what happens when a living being is placed into a fire. Complex structures that implement rich functionality are broken down into simple atoms and molecules. Here is the key point: what makes the living being a "living being" is the way that the particles that constitute it are organized.

This organization - which entirely carries with it the identity of the living being - is entirely destroyed by burning.

So fire really does destroy a human being (or other living creature) that is placed into it. The view that this is not so because of existence of simple waste gases fails to recognize that the essence of what makes a person a person is not the atoms of which they are made, but rather the pattern by which they are assembled.

And, of course, that pattern is utterly destroyed by fire.

 

[Orion]

Good post, Drew.

Fire is simply an analogy used several times. It burns away impurities leaving that which is pure.

The works of Christian that are "tried by fire", is that an actual fire? Are all the things we did somehow going to gain some sort of physical existence that will be tossed into a big fire to see what burns and what doesn't? Of course not! It is figurative language. I expect Hell is as well.

 

[jgredline]

Drew
My interpretation is not my opinion because it is what the bible clearly says and teaches...Unless of course, you're saying that God offered his opinion...

Secondly, a fire will destroy what we see, but there is still matter....

Gases

Run in place very fast for a minute. Do you notice how hard you are breathing? What you are breathing is oxygen? You need oxygen to live. That's why you can only hold your breath for a certain amount of time.

You can't see oxygen. It's invisible. It is a gas. A gas is matter that has no shape or size of its own. Gases have no color.

Gases are all around you. You can feel gas when the wind blows. The wind is moving air. Air is many gases mixed together.
http://www.nyu.edu/pages/mathmol/textbo ... atter.html

Drew...No matter how you look at it, weather through physics or through the scriptures, you are still wrong.

 

[Vic C.]

Hey Lewis, what ever happened to your OP? :

Where Is the Lake of Fire? Has anybody here seen this link.


http://www.askelm.com/secrets/sec106.htm

 

[Lewis]

Hey Lewis, what ever happened to your OP? :

Don't know Vic.

 

[Lewis]

Just surfing' seeing what are some of the things that is being said' about this subject.

Hell Fire
Does it last forever?
http://www.creation-science-prophecy.com/hell.htm

Does God Destroy?*
http://www.adventistbiblicalresearch.or ... estroy.htm

 

[Vic C.]

Just surfing' seeing what are some of the things that is being said' about this subject.

Hell Fire
Does it last forever?
http://www.creation-science-prophecy.com/hell.htm

Ah, I see Michael Brown still has his site up and running. He's got some good stuff and some very controversial stuff there. I ran across this site a few years ago.

Unless someone still wants to continue discussing the Lake of Fire, can we sidetrack for a moment and discuss this? We can always go back to the "Lake". Does anyone off the bat know this to be true?

Is it possible that Michael could be part of the God Head? Could Michael be Jesus Christ? In the Jewish literature, Michael is described as the highest of the angels and identify him as the angel of Yahweh which is often mentioned in the Old Testament as a divine being.

In fact I have found that many Bible scholars, such as Charles Spurgeon and Matthew Henry, actually identify Michael as being Christ, the Son of God. In the New Testament Michael is easily identified as being Jesus, when a few texts are compared.

http://www.creation-science-prophecy.com/michael.htm

Does God Destroy?*
http://www.adventistbiblicalresearch.or ... estroy.htm

Heh! You might catch some grief for this one. ;-)

 

[jgredline]

Heh! You might catch some grief for this one. ;-)

Yea, I saw that last night, and grief was coming, but i deleted my post....

 

[Drew]

Drew...No matter how you look at it, weather through physics or through the scriptures, you are still wrong.

How is it, and I am asking for specifics, that I am wrong?

Do you not find believe that it is the structure or organization of the atoms that makes a person a person rather than the atoms themselves?

 

[MarkT]

Unless someone still wants to continue discussing the Lake of Fire, can we sidetrack for a moment and discuss this? We can always go back to the "Lake". Does anyone off the bat know this to be true?

Yes. I wanted to talk about the Conrad Black case in the context of this discussion. Black was found guilty of mail fraud and obstructing justice. The obstruction of justice charge was laid when he disobeyed a court order and removed certain boxes of evidence from his offices at Hollinger Inc. He did it openly and in plain sight. In fact he was filmed on tape removing the boxes. As we know thieves do not act so that they can be seen. They hide theirs acts. But Black acted in plain sight to be seen and in so doing he showed his contempt for the court and for the law. No matter. His actions were consistent with the actions of an innocent man. Was he guilty of contempt? Ok. The whole idea of being charged with stealing his own money is ridiculous in the first place. But that's not what I want to talk about. Now we get to the meat of the question. What should his punishment be? According to the law, he should be imprisoned for 30 years. Think about it. He remove some boxes. He showed contempt for the law. He didn't remove any incriminating evidence. There was nothing in the boxes but the records of the transactions that involved the non compete payments. Still he might get 30 years in prison. That's according to your law. But we know that according to the law of the spirit of mercy and forgiveness, he should be forgiven. I'm giving a fair warning to the judges and to the prosecutors and to the lawyers and to the people of U.S. and to the people of Canada and to the people of the whole world, that if you can't show mercy to one of your own fellow human beings, then God will show you no mercy. If your punishments are so disproportionate to the infraction, then consider how much greater God will punish you for your infractions, for even having an evil thought, you will be cast into the everlasting lake of fire, for you will be judged by your own judgments and by the punishments you give out.

 

[Vic C.]

Oh, lmbo Mark, how did we go from me asking about Michael the Arch Angel to your post? : Was that an attempt to get back on topic?

 

[MarkT]

Oh, lmbo Mark, how did we go from me asking about Michael the Arch Angel to your post? Was that an attempt to get back on topic?

No. I didn't know what you were discussing. Is your little discussion more important than a man's life? Just thought, if you had the spirit of truth in you, you might be interested in seeing how the spirit of this world is working in the world where men have forgotten God and they don't know him and how the truth can find no place in them.

The pit is the place where the condemned are kept until the day of judgment. It is a place of torment. In that place your thoughts and your words will torment you and everything that you believe in your heart which is false will be set on fire. The lake of fire is where both body and soul are destroyed. It's not a physical place. A physical fire can not consume the soul so it's not a physical fire but a spiritual fire in a spiritual place. Every falsehood and every false thing and every lie that has ever been uttered about God will tinder the fire and the word of God will kindle the fire. 'Let him who has my word speak my word faithfully. What has straw in common with wheat? says the LORD. Is not my word like fire' Jeremiah 23:29 It will be a virtual lake of fire. You will be swimming in an ocean of lies and falsehoods that will burn forever and you will be destroyed body and soul eternally.

 

[Vic C.]

No. I didn't know what you were discussing

Fair enough, though I'd suspect reading from the beginning might have shed some light on the nature of the topic.

Is your little discussion more important than a man's life?

No, but that wasn't part of the OP. Please excuse me for trying to moderate.

Just thought, if you had the spirit of truth in you,

Heh? Please don't go there. I think what you are saying is I don't have the spirit of your truth in me. There is a difference.

you might be interested in seeing how the spirit of this world is working in the world where men have forgotten God and they don't know him and how the truth can find no place in them.

I know... I live in this stinking world too. ;-)

So, can we get back on topic? Thanks!

 

[Drew]

I think that the lake of fire is probably a real physical thing that will be in a real place, probably on the Earth, and that the lost (unredeemed) will be called forth from the sleep of death and cast bodily into the fire and annihilated as a result.

Orion (if you are out there) - I suspect that you will find this proposal difficult to take, but I presently cannot see how the Scriptures allow possibilities where the lake of fire is not real and that real people will not be cast into it. I think their suffering will be relatively short and their end is non-existence. If someone can make a Scriptural case for a kinder, gentler, end for the lost, I would eagerly consider it.

You will occasionally (thankfully only occasionally) encounter posts in this forum where people seem to take delight in the thought of people being cast into this lake. I take no such delight, I assure you. However, I am working from the premise that the Scriptures are the word of God.

I believe that the lake of fire is physically real because I think that are no "things that exist" which are not either physical objects or "processes" that act on physical objects. I can anticipate some objections to this (e.g. what is the status of God under such a view), but I will field them if they come.

I think we have an incorrect conceptualization of the universe if we think dualisitically- that there is the "physical" domain and there is the entirely separate "spiritual" domain. I do not think that the universe is structured that way.

 

[Solo]

I think we have an incorrect conceptualization of the universe if we think dualisitically- that there is the "physical" domain and there is the entirely separate "spiritual" domain. I do not think that the universe is structured that way.

And therein lies your foundational basis of adhering with the unsound doctrines of devils.

 

[Drew]

In respect to the whole dualism issue (relevant to the OP only to the extent that my view on dualism informs my view on the "physicality" of the lake of fire), I think we incorrectly see the "Flesh-Spirit" distinction as a "physical - non-physical" distinction, whereas we should see it as an "old nature" vs "new nature" distinction.

 

[Solo]

In respect to the whole dualism issue (relevant to the OP only to the extent that my view on dualism informs my view on the "physicality" of the lake of fire), I think we incorrectly see the "Flesh-Spirit" distinction as a "physical - non-physical" distinction, whereas we should see it as an "old nature" vs "new nature" distinction.

You have imbibed too much from the Annihilationist watering hole, dear friend.

 

[Drew]

I believe that one item of evidence in favour of properly interpreting the word "sprirtual" is the distinctly bodily sense in which it is used by Paul in 1 Cor 15:

"So also is the resurrection of the dead It is sown a perishable body, it is raised an imperishable body; it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body."

I think one place we err is to assume that since a "natural" body is obviously physical, then a "spiritual" body is not. I think such a conclusion is not justified.

I think that in this chapter Paul describes the risen Christ as having a "spiritual body". We know that this was indeed a body - a thing occupying space like our bodies do.

I think that Greek notions of dualism cause us to overlook this and mistakenly think that "spiritual bodies" are not "bodies" in the normal sense but are mysterious immaterial things.

 

[sisterchristian]

Why do many people take Revelation 14:10 in a literalistic sense, but not Matthew 18:9?

Because I really don't think God wan'ts everyone going around plucking their eyeballs out or cutting their hands or feet off, I think what he was saying is to not make any provisions for the flesh.