Where will you spend your eternity?

[The Unbeliever]

This is just my experience so don't feel any need to defend yourself. From my experience of your posts you are still inbetween. You don't really have the schema of a believer or an atheist. You try on statements like comparing Jesus to Santa Claus. If Jesus was your life at one point and you stuggled for years trying to come back to him wouldn't this be highly inappropriate? It's not coming across as congruent to me online and I think it's cause you have a lot of emotional ties here you aren't aknowledging. Just because your faith is so weak doesn't mean you have to dismiss the meaning it gave you.

I want to make this clear. I did not compare Jesus to Santa Claus. I compared belief in Jesus to belief in Santa Claus, which for an atheist is something comparable. This is an important distinction.

Regarding your main point, though, I do not believe I am in some intermediate state. I do not believe in God. As for dismissing the meaning of my former faith, I am in agreement with Paul that to be a Christian when the teachings of Christianity are false is not an enviable position. I regret much that I did in the name of faith and devotion to God. I would undue many things that I said and did in good faith because I now look back at them as harmful errors that could have been avoided if I had understood differently.

 

[The Unbeliever]

Ok, thanks for answering.


Simply to know more about your faith. ;)

Why not ask in a manner that does not seem to insinuate against the genuineness of my former beliefs? I had already made plenty of remarks that clarified the nature of my beliefs, so this ought not to have been a matter of uncertainty.

 

[Free]

John 16:11 - I've already been saved, i still cannot judge you because i've been judged. i'm not judging you, i'm guiding you into TRUTH. When was the last time you had this kind of disagreement with someone on this forum and stirred you up like this. Maybe there is a reason why God brought me to you. Why do you think i'm pressing so hard for you to understand. I'm not judging you, i'm not angry at you. I'm TEACHING you, whether you know it or not. The things i'm saying are in my heart because God is in my heart!

If this is not clear to you, you have rendered me speechless..

You're not at all understanding what I wrote. I won't be addressing this point again.

The above quote is my answer to you, so you have READ IT. You're asking which one is it, but i'm explaining to you what 'within' 'inside of' and 'in the midst of' means in this post. You're not reading what i wrote, you're just seeing what you wanna see. In that case, what does Matthew 6:22 mean to you?

In what verse does Jesus say that the kingdom of God is "within," and in what verse does he say it is "in the midst of"?

 

[Yah1]

In what verse does Jesus say that the kingdom of God is "within," and in what verse does he say it is "in the midst of"?

The Bible scripture you are reading is of (ESV) - This says in the midst of
The Bible Scripture i am reading is of (KJV) - This says within Luke 17:21

I have no idea why there are so many versions of the Bible. I assume 'Man' is behind that atrocity. When Jesus spoke, he spoke of what was/is within him. All you have to do is keep reading on and it explains why. I will explain why. We shall take our time with this, let's dissect what i've said here. First, let's focus on the words here, what did Jesus mean by the light of the body is your eye, if your eye is full of light, your whole body is full of light. Why did he compare the eye with the body in Matthew 6:22

'Within' does mean 'inside of' and i will tell you why. Luke 17:20 & Luke 17:21 are excellent scriptures to understand what Faith is. For example, if the person next to you has come to Faith, you can't SEE what's inside of him. One's Faith cannot be seen with our human eye, only through our actions do people see. When he says in the midst of you, he means the PERSON STANDING NEXT TO YOU! Jesus was standing next to the pharisees! You never know if the person next to you is either a saint or a devil. When Jesus says walk in the light, it's the light within you! The LAMP is the eye of the body! Matthew 6:22 - Notice he says, If the eye is full of light, the whole body is full of light. YOUR BODY, does your body not have a soul? The Pharisees could not understand this, Jesus WAS THE LAMP! Jesus prophets saw the light inside of him because they had FAITH! We know them by their fruits. Matthew 7:16

When i say this is a fallen earth corrupted in sin, what does that mean to you? Did Adam and Eve not eat the forbidden fruit? New Heaven and New Earth are NEW and different places than this fallen earth.

 

[Free]

The Bible scripture you are reading is of (ESV) - This says in the midst of
The Bible Scripture i am reading is of (KJV) - This says within Luke 17:21

I have no idea why there are so many versions of the Bible. I assume 'Man' is behind that atrocity. When Jesus spoke, he spoke of what was/is within him. All you have to do is keep reading on and it explains why. I will explain why. We shall take our time with this, let's dissect what i've said here. First, let's focus on the words here, what did Jesus mean by the light of the body is your eye, if your eye is full of light, your whole body is full of light. Why did he compare the eye with the body in Matthew 6:22

I'm bowing out. This is going nowhere.

 

[Gordon]

I want to make this clear. I did not compare Jesus to Santa Claus. I compared belief in Jesus to belief in Santa Claus, which for an atheist is something comparable. This is an important distinction.

Regarding your main point, though, I do not believe I am in some intermediate state. I do not believe in God. As for dismissing the meaning of my former faith, I am in agreement with Paul that to be a Christian when the teachings of Christianity are false is not an enviable position. I regret much that I did in the name of faith and devotion to God. I would undue many things that I said and did in good faith because I now look back at them as harmful errors that could have been avoided if I had understood differently.

You don't see how this is telling the part of you that wanted to go to seminary you're too old to believe in Santa? You seem to have compassion for people having faith here but not much compassion for yourself having faith. Is this a disconnect? Are we misguided or kids waiting on Santa? Are we to be pitied or are we causing harmful errors? If this is too off topic and you'd like to reply please pm me.

 

[The Unbeliever]

You don't see how this is telling the part of you that wanted to go to seminary you're too old to believe in Santa? You seem to have compassion for people having faith here but not much compassion for yourself having faith. Is this a disconnect? Are we misguided or kids waiting on Santa? Are we to be pitied or are we causing harmful errors? If this is too off topic and you'd like to reply please pm me.

No, because that was not the nature of my unbelief. There is some element of truth to what you say. I do not believe there is a God to answer your prayers or to fulfill your hopes. But I am also aware that there is no absolute proof that I am right, and so there is always the chance I could be wrong. And irrespective of that, I do not want others to lose their faith. My own loss was a terrible thing, and I do not wish it on others. If someone is happy in their faith, I say let them remain in it, for this in itself does no harm. Of course, I would not hesitate to argue against what does cause harm, but many of the harmful errors I spoke of were my own and not another's, and they were in some sense unique to me and not indicative of Christian beliefs although they were rooted in them.

With regard to compassion, I wish to be charitable in my estimation of others, both because it is too easy to dismiss those who do not believe as you do, but also because without charity, it is impossible to truly understand another human. Each of us faces a choice when we listen to another. We can either interpret there words generously and with the best connotation possible, or else we can refuse such charity and so bar our hearts from any hope of learning from them. Only the former has any hope and future. But as for myself, I face no such choice. I know what I mean and what I believe. For myself, I believe I am best served with honesty and self-examination, lest I deceive myself.

 

[Blev]

Why not ask in a manner that does not seem to insinuate against the genuineness of my former beliefs?

ok I will.
At some time in your life did you repent and recieve the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, into your life? Were you born again, that is, did you notice a change in your life and have a personal relationship with Jesus?

And if so what caused you to change your mind about Jesus?

 

[The Unbeliever]

ok I will.
At some time in your life did you repent and recieve the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, into your life? Were you born again, that is, did you notice a change in your life and have a personal relationship with Jesus?

I did and believed all of this.

And if so what caused you to change your mind about Jesus?

It is complicated. My unbelief was rooted in a crisis theological in nature, but ultimately came down to my inability to find God when I most desperately needed to. I have a blog in which two posts might shed better light on what I mean. Here is a letter of explanation I sent to my pastor:

http://lindenbranch.weblogs.us/archives/2123

The second posts goes into greater depth the second half of my loss of faith, the inability to find God:

http://lindenbranch.weblogs.us/archives/5311

 

[Gordon]

No, because that was not the nature of my unbelief. There is some element of truth to what you say. I do not believe there is a God to answer your prayers or to fulfill your hopes. But I am also aware that there is no absolute proof that I am right, and so there is always the chance I could be wrong. And irrespective of that, I do not want others to lose their faith. My own loss was a terrible thing, and I do not wish it on others. If someone is happy in their faith, I say let them remain in it, for this in itself does no harm. Of course, I would not hesitate to argue against what does cause harm, but many of the harmful errors I spoke of were my own and not another's, and they were in some sense unique to me and not indicative of Christian beliefs although they were rooted in them.

With regard to compassion, I wish to be charitable in my estimation of others, both because it is too easy to dismiss those who do not believe as you do, but also because without charity, it is impossible to truly understand another human. Each of us faces a choice when we listen to another. We can either interpret there words generously and with the best connotation possible, or else we can refuse such charity and so bar our hearts from any hope of learning from them. Only the former has any hope and future. But as for myself, I face no such choice. I know what I mean and what I believe. For myself, I believe I am best served with honesty and self-examination, lest I deceive myself.

Thank you for your reply. I will read your blogs when I get a chance.

 

[for_his_glory]

Not sure if anyone already said this as I did not take the time to read them all, but my eternity will not be that of Heaven, but that of the New Earth with the New Jerusalem as even now there is no one in heaven except for God and His angels.

God breathed life into us and when this flesh body dies that spirit of life that was breathed in us will go back to God, Ecclesiastics 12:7, and this flesh body will return to the dust of the ground from where it came from until we are resurrected when Jesus comes to take us into the clouds, 1Thessalonians 4:13-18, which is the first heaven that is atmosphere where we will be raised incorruptible, 1 Corinthians 15:52. Nowhere in the Bible does it state what we will actually look like when we return with Jesus when he plants His feet on the Mount of Olives and fights the final battle as described in Zechariah chapter 4, except that we will be conformed to His glorious body, Philippians 3:21; 1Corinthians 15:43; 1John 3:2. After this final siege of Jerusalem is won by Christ forever then the new heaven and new earth will be ushered in as the old heaven and earth will pass away, Rev 21:1-7.

 

[Free]

Not sure if anyone already said this as I did not take the time to read them all, but my eternity will not be that of Heaven, but that of the New Earth with the New Jerusalem as even now there is no one in heaven except for God and His angels.

This is almost exactly what I was getting at. The exception is that I don't believe there will be a place called heaven where God and angels live, as I don't think there is now. For lack of a better way of putting it, the veil between heaven and earth will be removed.

 

[for_his_glory]

This is almost exactly what I was getting at. The exception is that I don't believe there will be a place called heaven where God and angels live, as I don't think there is now. For lack of a better way of putting it, the veil between heaven and earth will be removed.

Actually there are three heavens and I do not believe we could ever see that of the third heaven where God resides as all I read in scriptures says we will reign with Christ on the New Earth unless someone can show me scripture contrary to this. I'm always opened to learn new things from the Holy Spirit. Hebrews Chapter 9 states that only Jesus can enter that of the third heaven where God sits as it is the holiest of hollies and that is why we will reign with Christ on the new earth. The veil was already removed if you read mark 15:38 as when Jesus gave up the ghost and returned to sit at the right hand of God this gave us our connection to God as Jesus being now our mediator between God and us as we know that no one can see God and live because of the brightness of His glory.

First heaven is the firmament, Earths Atmosphere, which is the immediate sky, Genesis 2:19; 7:3, 23; Psalms 8:8; Lamentations 4:19. The second heaven is the starry heavens, where our atmosphere ends. It is the heavens in which the sun, moon, and stars are fixed in orbit, Deuteronomy 17:3; Jeremiah 8:2; Matthew 24:29. Third Heaven is where God and the holy angels and spirits of just men dwell. It is called “The heaven of heavens,” Deuteronomy 10:14; 1 Kings 8:27; Psalms 115:16; 148:4; 1Kings 8:27; Psalms 2:4.

 

[Yah1]

The veil was already removed if you read Mark 15:38

Correct.

 

[Free]

Actually there are three heavens and I do not believe we could ever see that of the third heaven where God resides as all I read in scriptures says we will reign with Christ on the New Earth unless someone can show me scripture contrary to this. I'm always opened to learn new things from the Holy Spirit. Hebrews Chapter 9 states that only Jesus can enter that of the third heaven where God sits as it is the holiest of hollies and that is why we will reign with Christ on the new earth.

Well, there is a lot the Bible says:

1Co 15:48 As was the man of dust, so also are those who are of the dust, and as is the man of heaven, so also are those who are of heaven.
1Co 15:49 Just as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the man of heaven.
1Co 15:50 I tell you this, brothers: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.
1Co 15:51 Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed.
1Co 15:53 For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality. (ESV)

Rev 21:3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God. (ESV)

Rev 21:22 And I saw no temple in the city, for its temple is the Lord God the Almighty and the Lamb.
Rev 21:23 And the city has no need of sun or moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and its lamp is the Lamb.
Rev 21:24 By its light will the nations walk, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it,
Rev 21:25 and its gates will never be shut by day--and there will be no night there. (ESV)

Rev 22:3 No longer will there be anything accursed, but the throne of God and of the Lamb will be in it, and his servants will worship him.
Rev 22:4 They will see his face, and his name will be on their foreheads. (ESV)

Bearing in mind that we must be careful with the language used in Revelation, it seems clear that heaven and earth are joined, or, as I stated, that the veil is removed. God will dwell with his people.

The veil was already removed if you read mark 15:38 as when Jesus gave up the ghost and returned to sit at the right hand of God this gave us our connection to God as Jesus being now our mediator between God and us as we know that no one can see God and live because of the brightness of His glory.

I am not speaking of the veil of the Temple, although that is a clue as to how things are. Search "Celtic thin places" for an idea as to what I'm getting at.

First heaven is the firmament, Earths Atmosphere, which is the immediate sky, Genesis 2:19; 7:3, 23; Psalms 8:8; Lamentations 4:19. The second heaven is the starry heavens, where our atmosphere ends. It is the heavens in which the sun, moon, and stars are fixed in orbit, Deuteronomy 17:3; Jeremiah 8:2; Matthew 24:29. Third Heaven is where God and the holy angels and spirits of just men dwell. It is called “The heaven of heavens,†Deuteronomy 10:14; 1 Kings 8:27; Psalms 115:16; 148:4; 1Kings 8:27; Psalms 2:4.

Yes, I am aware of how the Bible refers to three heavens. However, I think that much of Christianity, or at least Evangelicalism, has the wrong idea. Since the "first heaven" is understood to be the immediate atmosphere and the "second heaven" the stars or universe, does that necessarily mean the "third heaven" is somewhere "out there," at some distance somewhere out past the stars? Could it not be just another dimension? What if heaven is in another dimension but located right here within and around this world?

I believe a careful examination of the Bible does show that heaven is indeed very close.

 

[Yah1]

I think that much of Christianity, or at least Evangelicalism, has the wrong idea. Since the "first heaven" is understood to be the immediate atmosphere and the "second heaven" the stars or universe, does that necessarily mean the "third heaven" is somewhere "out there," at some distance somewhere out past the stars? Could it not be just another dimension? What if heaven is in another dimension but located right here within and around this world?

I believe a careful examination of the Bible does show that heaven is indeed very close.

Actually there are three heavens and I do not believe we could ever see that of the third heaven where God resides as all I read in scriptures says we will reign with Christ on the New Earth unless someone can show me scripture contrary to this. I'm always opened to learn new things from the Holy Spirit. Hebrews Chapter 9 states that only Jesus can enter that of the third heaven where God sits as it is the holiest of hollies and that is why we will reign with Christ on the new earth. The veil was already removed if you read mark 15:38 as when Jesus gave up the ghost and returned to sit at the right hand of God this gave us our connection to God as Jesus being now our mediator between God and us as we know that no one can see God and live because of the brightness of His glory.

First heaven is the firmament, Earths Atmosphere, which is the immediate sky, Genesis 2:19; 7:3, 23; Psalms 8:8; Lamentations 4:19. The second heaven is the starry heavens, where our atmosphere ends. It is the heavens in which the sun, moon, and stars are fixed in orbit, Deuteronomy 17:3; Jeremiah 8:2; Matthew 24:29. Third Heaven is where God and the holy angels and spirits of just men dwell. It is called “The heaven of heavens,†Deuteronomy 10:14; 1 Kings 8:27; Psalms 115:16; 148:4; 1Kings 8:27; Psalms 2:4.

Free, i see that in your list of scriptures there you had skipped over Revelation 21:1
Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away.

For His Glory - "I read in scriptures says we will reign with Christ on the New Earth unless someone can show me scripture contrary to this."

Me - We will reign with Christ forever on the new earth, in our new resurrected bodies.
Revelation 22:5 - Zechariah 14:9 - Daniel 7:14

There are three heavens in the Bible, two physical and one spiritual. Be sure not to mix the physical scriptures with the heavenly scriptures. The spiritual heaven is referred too as paradise. As to where paradise is located, i have no idea. It is separate from this fallen earth though, thus Revelation 21:1 - We are all still under the curse of sin here on this earth. But to enter paradise, you must be baptized in the Holy Spirit to enter Holy Land.

Rev.2:7 "To him who overcomes I will give to eat from the tree of life which is in the midst of the paradise of God which is now in heaven. In Rev.22:2 we find this tree is located in the new Jerusalem (Heb.12:22-24). (Whether this is symbolic or literal is a matter of view, the fact is we will partake of it). The location of paradise will again change in the future to be on the new earth, as the new Jerusalem comes down and the dwelling place of God is with man forever (Rev.21:1- Rev.22). The same tree that Adam was forbidden to eat from, so that he would not become eternal in his fallen state, will be offered to everyone that has received their immortal resurrected bodies.

 

[joep222]

With my Savior and Lord Jesus Christ!

 

[for_his_glory]

We know by scripture that the kingdom of God is within us (Spiritual) as God has always dwelled with His people and always will through eternity. We also bare the image of God in us (Spiritually) when we first became indwelled by His Holy Spirit as it was at that time of being Spiritually born again, John 3:3, that we first experienced the kingdom of God and became a part of it. When we think of the third heaven we imagine it as a literal place, a paradise outside our own realm, but unlike the other two heavens, which even the first will pass away, the third is that of a Spiritual place as with God all things are Spiritual in His realm. It's not a place that we can see with our eyes, but that of an infinite realm that will also engulf the New Earth and New Jerusalem as God will always be with us and we with Him.

The third heaven is very close to us as we can reach out in the Spirit (like John in receiving revelations from God while he was in the Spirit) to only experience God in all His glory. The Celtics call it a thin place, but we call it the Holiest of Holies as we can only sense it or even get a glimpse of it by being in the Spirit to experience such a Spiritual place.

 

[Free]

We know by scripture that the kingdom of God is within us (Spiritual) as God has always dwelled with His people and always will through eternity. We also bare the image of God in us (Spiritually) when we first became indwelled by His Holy Spirit as it was at that time of being Spiritually born again, John 3:3, that we first experienced the kingdom of God and became a part of it. When we think of the third heaven we imagine it as a literal place, a paradise outside our own realm, but unlike the other two heavens, which even the first will pass away, the third is that of a Spiritual place as with God all things are Spiritual in His realm. It's not a place that we can see with our eyes, but that of an infinite realm that will also engulf the New Earth and New Jerusalem as God will always be with us and we with Him.

The third heaven is very close to us as we can reach out in the Spirit (like John in receiving revelations from God while he was in the Spirit) to only experience God in all His glory. The Celtics call it a thin place, but we call it the Holiest of Holies as we can only sense it or even get a glimpse of it by being in the Spirit to experience such a Spiritual place.

The third heaven is more than merely a spiritual place. Jesus is the God-man, in a resurrected body, yet he is in heaven.

And I do not believe Scripture teaches that the kingdom of God is something that is within us, but rather it is something we enter into. It is the rule of God made manifest on earth.

 

[Drew]

I believe that the Scriptures teach that the final home of redeemed persons is on a transformed and renewed earth.

I realize that many Christians believe in some sort of non-embodied eternal existence in Heaven, but this is not the Biblical teaching, at least as I see it. If you believe this, do you also believe, as Paul tells us in 1 Corinthians 15, that, at some point in the future, we will all be given resurrection bodies like Jesus was given?

And I trust you realize that Jesus' resurrection body had arms, legs, stomach, eyes, etc., etc. So assuming you agree with Paul, are you saying you will be in a "arms, legs, head, eyes" body that is located in some non-physical heaven? How does that work? Where do you use your feet? What do you see with your eyes? What do you eat? I think it is very hard to make sense of the idea of eternal existence in Heaven, given the Biblical teaching. I suggest that Heaven is a "rest stop", as we await the resurrection of the body and the final redemption of all creation.

God created the physical world and declared it to be very good. For reasons I will not get into in the present post, I am confident that He plans to redeem His physical creation, not throw it in the garbage.