Who are the Seven Churches?

[Tri Unity]

Synopsis:

The very first synod of the church outside of the first century AD is recorded to have taken place in Rome in the year 155 AD. This is aptly named The Council of Rome. This council was mainly a meeting between two influential bishops, Polycarp of Smyrna and Anicetus of Rome. They found that they had a disagreement over their understanding of the date for Easter. This disagreement was followed up with a second Council of Rome in the year 193 AD. There the bishops Polycrates of Ephesus and Victor of Rome had met to discuss this same discrepancy. The bishops of Rome argued that they should determine the date of Easter because they had been given supremacy, they believed, over all churches due to the seat of Rome once being occupied by Peter. This argument was disputed by Polycarp and Polycrates, but it continued to be strongly believed by Roman bishops until they eventually made this viewpoint become a reality.

From what I have been able to discover through my own private research, these two events eventually led to the establishment of the first universal sect of Christendom, the Roman Catholic Church, and the institution of the Papacy. I personally believe that this first universal sect, the Roman Catholic Church, is prefigured in the model of the first of the Seven Churches of Asia Minor spoken of in the Apocalypse of John: the Church of Ephesus. This first of the seven churches is institutionally the oldest existing global sect of Christendom; it was formed out of the complete moral breakdown and hatred spawned for other Christians who were not compliant to Roman supremacy; and it is recognised for its creeds and synods for excommunicating heretics (Nicolaitans).

Christ said to this church that, although they exhibited great patience and endurance, they had “lost their first love”. This lack of love helped to forge their institutional identity. They are called to repent. Christ said to them “Remember therefore from where you are fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come to you quickly, and will remove your candlestick out of his place, except you repent.” (Revelation 2:5)

What you may realise here is that this church was to meet Christ at His second coming – when "I will come to you quickly", or suddenly, as a thief in the night.

“If therefore you shall not watch, I will come on you as a thief, and you shall not know what hour I will come on you.” (Revelation 3:3)

“But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.” (2 Peter 3:10)

Now for my question… what other views do people have for the seven churches, and what evidence and support do you have from both scripture and history for your view? Please state your position, Preterist, Historicist or Futurist (or other), followed by your rationale. I personally believe in the near future return of Christ, but I believe some things in the book of Revelation were speaking of the past; they also spoke of events in history; but they primarily speak of the future events surrounding Christ's return.

Thanks
Tri

 

[Hitch]

. I personally believe in the near future return of Christ,

Please define 'near future' ; weeks,months,years?

 

[Hammer]

Please define 'near future' ; weeks,months,years?

Near [neer] preposition:
1. an indefinite length of time, thousands of years, possibly millions
Synonyms: at hand, soon, shortly

 

[Tri Unity]

Please define 'near future'; weeks, months, years?

Personally I think all of the signs point to anytime in the next few years. The increase in earthquakes occurring cannot be some distant future; otherwise the frequency of earthquakes as a sign would have no value. The World Wars; the threatening annihilation through nuclear weapons; the return of all the ancient kingdoms - including Israel; the Global Governance; the spreading atheism; the disunity of churches; the attempts at re-unification of the churches... these events cannot be merely coincidence; these are the very signs we were told to look out for. That's my opinion anyway.

 

[Hammer]

The United States Geological Survey denies that earthquakes are increasing. They're the authority, the place you'd go to if you had a valid case that earthquakes are increasing.

Return of what ancient kingdoms? A state by the name Israel isn't necessarily Israel. And, this one isn't.

Anyway, could I have a link to your assertion that the the bishops of Rome, in 193, argued that they should determine the date of Easter because they had been given supremacy?

 

[Hitch]

Personally I think all of the signs point to anytime in the next few years. The increase in earthquakes occurring cannot be some distant future; otherwise the frequency of earthquakes as a sign would have no value. The World Wars; the threatening annihilation through nuclear weapons; the return of all the ancient kingdoms - including Israel; the Global Governance; the spreading atheism; the disunity of churches; the attempts at re-unification of the churches... these events cannot be merely coincidence; these are the very signs we were told to look out for. That's my opinion anyway.

So,,, 3-5 years out- Fair assessment?

 

[Tri Unity]

So,,, 3-5 years out- Fair assessment?

Yes, but that is only my opinion. I can give you the reasons why I think this way, but I don't want to argue or sponsor rudeness. I would like to hear your opinion as well.

 

[Tri Unity]

The United States Geological Survey denies that earthquakes are increasing. They're the authority, the place you'd go to if you had a valid case that earthquakes are increasing.

Like most ideas, you will always find quotes and opinions of someone who will argue the opposite.

Return of what ancient kingdoms? A state by the name Israel isn't necessarily Israel.

You might want to check out a map of the Middle East before World War 1 and after the Paris Peace Conference. I wasn't just referring to Israel. Israel (the land today) consist of Ashkenazi and Sephardic Jews. Perhaps you would like to share your information to the contrary.

Anyway, could I have a link to your assertion that the the bishops of Rome, in 193, argued that they should determine the date of Easter because they had been given supremacy?

You can google the Council of Rome in 193 with Victor and Polycrates. Victor is an interesting subject; he was influenced by the gnostic named Valentinus who almost became the bishop of Rome. Many of the ideas of Valentinus were supported by Victor and other Roman bishops. The power-base Valentinus established remained for a long time after his death. Many of Rome's later doctrines need to be re-examined with the knowledge that the gnostics had influenced the bishop of Rome's ideology. Pope Stephen particularly opened up the gates of gnosticism through allowing gnostics to partake of communion without baptism or repentance (much as they do today). All churches today are still affected by these Catholic-Gnostic ideologies. Cyprian and Firmilian (and dozens of other bishops) tried to resist the influence of Rome, but they (Roman bishops) were getting financial aid and support from gnostics and pagans, which severely impacted the entire church until today. Luther was a Catholic afterall. The following links might help you on your journey.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valentinus_(Gnostic)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Victor_I

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polycrates_of_Ephesus

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Stephen_I

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyprian

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firmilian

"Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God."

 

[Hammer]

Like most ideas, you will always find quotes and opinions of someone who will argue the opposite.

The United States Geological Survey is the "evidence."

You might want to check out a map of the Middle East before World War 1 and after the Paris Peace Conference. I wasn't just referring to Israel. Israel (the land today) consist of Ashkenazi and Sephardic Jews. Perhaps you would like to share your information to the contrary.

I'm not going to address that topic anymore in this thread. Too controversial.

You can google the Council of Rome in 193 with Victor and Polycrates. Victor is an interesting subject; he was influenced by the gnostic named Valentinus who almost became the bishop of Rome. Many of the ideas of Valentinus were supported by Victor and other Roman bishops. The power-base Valentinus established remained for a long time after his death. Many of Rome's later doctrines need to be re-examined with the knowledge that the gnostics had influenced the bishop of Rome's ideology. Pope Stephen particularly opened up the gates of gnosticism through allowing gnostics to partake of communion without baptism or repentance (much as they do today). All churches today are still affected by these Catholic-Gnostic ideologies. Cyprian and Firmillian (and dozens of other bishops) tried to resist the influence of Rome, but they (Roman bishops) were getting financial aid and support from gnostics and pagans, which severely impacted onto the entire church. The following links might help you on your journey.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valentinus_(Gnostic)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Victor_I

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polycrates_of_Ephesus

I didn't find anything in those three links to support, "The bishops of Rome argued that they should determine the date of Easter because they had been given supremacy, they believed, over all churches due to the seat of Rome once being occupied by Peter." Rome disagreed with some other churches, but I don't see the evidence that they thought they had supreme authority because Peter was allegedly once their pope.

 

[Tri Unity]

The United States Geological Survey is the "evidence."

So what! I've done research. You can believe them if you want - they are no substitute for examing the facts for yourself.

I'm not going to address that topic anymore in this thread. Too controversial.

Phew!

I didn't find anything in those three links to support, "The bishops of Rome argued that they should determine the date of Easter because they had been given supremacy, they believed, over all churches due to the seat of Rome once being occupied by Peter." Rome disagreed with some other churches, but I don't see the evidence that they thought they had supreme authority because Peter was allegedly once their pope.

This is a deep subject. You will need to delve a little deeper. Do you imagine that the Popes do not believe that they have rights for supremacy? How do you think that happened? Where and when did it start? You will need to research more to find the answers you are after. I'm not willing to hand it to you on a platter.

 

[Hammer]

So what! I've done research. You can believe them if you want - they are no substitute for examing the facts for yourself.

I have looked at the "facts". The increase in detected earthquakes are mainly smaller earthquakes, those that would have been missed more in the past. I've looked at the plot of number earthquakes, year vs. severity, and have seen quantum increases, rather than gradual increases, reflecting leaps in technological instrument sensitivity and increases in instrument deployment, rather than increases in actual seismic activity.

This is a deep subject. You will need to delve a little deeper. Do you imagine that the Popes do not believe that they have rights for supremacy? How do you think that happened? Where and when did it start? You will need to research more to find the answers you are after. I'm not willing to hand it to you on a platter.

I believe the Catholic Church has rewritten history, and assigned supremacy to men who never claimed it, starting with Peter, in an attempt to legitimize their later claim to authoritative supremacy. I believe the Roman Church didn't gain supremacy until after Christianity was legalized by Rome.

 

[Stormcrow]

Took a while (almost 10 seconds) and broke a sweat and a nail waiting for Google, but here they are: the seven cities in Asia with churches (assemblies) to whom John addressed the book of Revelation.

You can read more about it here:

http://www.christianforums.net/showthread.php?t=40550&highlight=

and here:

http://www.christianforums.net/showthread.php?t=40550&p=607850&viewfull=1#post607850

and here (can't forget this one):

http://www.christianforums.net/showthread.php?t=40550&p=613111&viewfull=1#post613111

 

[Tri Unity]

I have looked at the "facts". The increase in detected earthquakes are mainly smaller earthquakes, those that would have been missed more in the past. I've looked at the plot of number earthquakes, year vs. severity, and have seen quantum increases, rather than gradual increases, reflecting leaps in technological instrument sensitivity and increases in instrument deployment, rather than increases in actual seismic activity.

Everyone who believes something (anything) is convinced on some level for what they believe. What will convince you will not convince me, and vice versa. Knowledge is subjective. Data is subjective. Science interprets data and they apply it to a working theory. Some data will very often contradict any theory. Particularly in earth science and tectonic plates; how science measures depth verses velocity verses frequency is not always consistent. The history of measured earthquakes is extremely subjective. Like I said, you can believe that if you want.

I believe the Catholic Church has rewritten history, and assigned supremacy to men who never claimed it, starting with Peter, in an attempt to legitimize their later claim to authoritative supremacy. I believe the Roman Church didn't gain supremacy until after Christianity was legalized by Rome.

The Catholic Church did not re-write history; they concealed history and destroyed literature to advance their own interpretation. Every ideology does the same thing. This is much the same as what modern science does. The history Catholic Church did not conceal/destroy is still enough to discover the origin of ideas. There is a great number of literature works that escaped destruction and have been only recently rediscovered; such as the Codex Sinaiticus; the Dead Sea Scrolls and the Nag Hammadi Library. Knowledge has miraculously been unearthed so that this end-time church might rediscover the true history and origin of our denominations and traditions.

The Roman Catholic Church was working on ideas of cultural supremacy from the time Valentinus the gnostic had introduced it during the 2nd century. It slowly progressed over the next 200 years until Emperor Theodosius had announced the creed and doctrines formulated by Rome to be the representative doctrines of all christians; hence officially introducing the Roman Catholic Church in 380 AD. It was just a matter of time that all of the additional doctrines would be developed that we now see today. This was a gnostic hybrid which developed inside the church undetected. This was the birth of the Seven Churches, which are all based on a different geographical location, all having unique doctrines. This is exactly how history has played out.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edict_of_Thessalonica

There is absolutely zero evidence to show that the doctrines and ideologies of the distinct geographies of the seven churches ever existed in the 1st, 2nd or 3rd centuries. There is no doctrine found of Jezebel; Balak; Balaam or Nicolaitans. The closest of these forbidden doctrines is found in the knowledge of Nicolas who became a gnostic. Nicolaitan views were not in any way tolerated until the 3rd century proclamation of Pope Stephen. There is zero evidence to show that the early churches interpreted the seven churches to have already been fulfilled in the 1st or 2nd century. All early christians looked for a future fulfilment of these prophecies.

 

[Hitch]

Yes, but that is only my opinion. I can give you the reasons why I think this way, but I don't want to argue or sponsor rudeness. I would like to hear your opinion as well.

Well you're in a group with a consistent performance; 100% wrong, so far. Are you aware that the same prediction for the same reasons have been made by hundreds ,even thousands, over the last century, each one expecting to have the necessary inside information to get it right.?

And since you brought it up and it appears central to your argument I'll put up a question.

Exactly where ,in scripture, is the reported prediction of The increase in earthquakes occurring cannot be some distant future;?

Do you think its possible that your vision of a short term (earthly) future, shared by many, is related to the overall state of the nation?

 

[Stormcrow]

Futurism is notorious for being wrong and moving the goal posts. Wrong? Move the goal posts. Wrong again? Move the goal posts. In that way futurists can never be "wrong" about a future return of Christ, only the dates they keep setting for it.

You have to wonder, though, how many generations will have to come and go before even they have to admit they haven't got a clue.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_dates_predicted_for_apocalyptic_events

 

[Tri Unity]

Man of Lawlessness

2 Thessalonians 2:1 "Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, 2 that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. 3 Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God. 5 Do you not remember that while I was still with you, I was telling you these things? 6 And you know what restrains him now, so that in his time he will be revealed. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way. 8 Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming; 9 that is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders, 10 and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved. 11 For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false, 12 in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness." (NASB)
​

These scriptures are tied into the Seven Churches, for the "apostasy" is the condition of the seven churches. The seven churches have been sent a deluding spirit and fallen into falsehood and apostasy. This must take place before the coming of Jesus, for the coming of Jesus will reveal the man of lawlessness. All explanations of the Seven Churches must take all scriptures into consideration to effectively determine to nature and origin of the churches and their delusions.

 

[Hitch]

Man of Lawlessness

2 Thessalonians 2:1 "Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, 2 that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. 3 Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God. 5 Do you not remember that while I was still with you, I was telling you these things? 6 And you know what restrains him now, so that in his time he will be revealed. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way. 8 Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming; 9 that is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders, 10 and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved. 11 For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false, 12 in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness." (NASB)
​

These scriptures are tied into the Seven Churches, for the "apostasy" is the condition of the seven churches. The seven churches have been sent a deluding spirit and fallen into falsehood and apostasy. This must take place before the coming of Jesus, for the coming of Jesus will reveal the man of lawlessness. All explanations of the Seven Churches must take all scriptures into consideration to effectively determine to nature and origin of the churches and their delusions.

Correct me if Im wrong , but it seems regarding the "Man of Lawlessness' that,in your view, neither the Apocalypse nor the letter to he Thessolonicans has any connection to those addressed.

 

[Tri Unity]

Correct me if Im wrong , but it seems regarding the "Man of Lawlessness' that,in your view, neither the Apocalypse nor the letter to he Thessolonicans has any connection to those addressed.

I would be happy to correct you. You're wrong.

Paul's letters to the Seven Churches:

1. Romans
2. Corinthians
3. Galatians
4. Ephesians
5. Philippians
6. Colossians
7. Thessalonians

...were written to the same 7 churches of John. They represent the same churches figuratively.

Just as Paul's letters where written to the universal churches; so too John's letters were written to the universal churches. Paul's letters were written in chronological order; so too the 7 churches of John were written in chronological order to the churches who appeared chronologically in history. The first church of Ephesus (IMO) represents the Catholic Church. It was the first sect of christianity which represented a universal brotherhood. It had departed from the Apostolic writtings in order to establish its own doctrines, such as the Papacy; the worship of Mary; the sunday easter, etc. We all today fit into one of these seven church archetypes. We are all called "the church", we all have heresy, we all have Christ commanding us to repent.

The two churches which are not called to repent - Smyrna and Philadelphia - are exceptions due to circumstances. Smyrna, as an archetypal church, will be completely martyred early in the tribulation. They will experience a holocaust. They are not asked to repent because they will cease to exist. The Philadephian church are not called to repentance as these ones represent the christians from all denominations who have already repented. (IMHO)

Thessalonians tells us a bit more of the picture of what is to befall the churches of God in the future years as we await the return of Christ. All of the letters to the churches tell us this same thing in different ways.

 

[Stormcrow]

1. Romans
2. Corinthians
3. Galatians
4. Ephesians
5. Philippians
6. Colossians
7. Thessalonians

...were written to the same 7 churches of John. They represent the same churches figuratively.

:biglol:toofunny:biglaugh
Bet Paul's kicking himself that he took all those missionary trips to real cities to convert real people and establish real churches when he could've just stayed in Damascus and written down all his "experiences" as "visions" for us.

Whatever was he thinking?!?

Seriously, of all the ridiculous things I've ever read on the web, I think that one tops them all.

 

[Hammer]

I would be happy to correct you. You're wrong.

Paul's letters to the Seven Churches:

1. Romans
2. Corinthians
3. Galatians
4. Ephesians
5. Philippians
6. Colossians
7. Thessalonians

...were written to the same 7 churches of John. They represent the same churches figuratively.

How do you know both of Paul's letters and the Revelation's messages to the seven churches are presented to us in the same order as the churches were established? And, even if so, how do you know these aren't in chronological order just out of interest in putting them in chronological order, rather than because one set represents the other?

The first church of Ephesus (IMO) represents the Catholic Church. It was the first sect of christianity which represented a universal brotherhood. It had departed from the Apostolic writtings in order to establish its own doctrines

A "sect" representing "universal brotherhood" is an oxymoron. And, reading the message to the church of Ephesus in no way reminds me of the Catholic Church.

Preterists are often accused of being non-literal. But, Preterists are very literal, except when it comes to descriptions of supernatural events, such as the explicit symbolism in Revelation. Futurists are very non-literal, as you're demonstrating. Futurists want to take the symbols literally and the non-symboles figuratively. Very backwards.

The seven churches in Revelation are literal churches.