Who are What is the Gospel

[Hopeful]

So then, according to you, since you were for some period of your life an unbeliever, and all unbelievers are under the wrath of God, then you were under the wrath of God for some period of your life. So obviously, according to what you've given me, despite Jesus having by His death on the cross "turned away the wrath" in the 1st century, you were still under the wrath for some period of time in the 20th/21st century, until you converted from being an unbeliever to being a believer. If Jesus (as you say) actually turned away God's wrath from you 2,000 years ago, then why were you/how could you have been born under God's wrath?

And if you, as an unbeliever, were still under God's wrath 2,000 years after Christ died on the cross, then obviously one thing that was not finished at Calvary was the actual turning away of God's wrath from you.

"from you" is the key there.
God put in place the ways and means of acquiring eternal life.
WE must make the decision to "use the Door".

 

[Paul E. Michael]

The unbeliever under goes God's wrath, it is not turned away at all

So, while you were still an unbeliever, you were undergoing God's wrath? When did God turn away His wrath from you? At the time Jesus died on the cross in the 1st century, or at the time you converted from being an unbeliever to being a believer in the 20th or 21st century?

God spoke as if it was past tense,

By your pronoun "it" are you referring to an historical event? Speaking about an event using past tense language is not the same thing as for the event to have already occurred.

it was already accomplished even at the incarnation.

What historical event are you saying "was already accomplished even at the incarnation"? If you, as you admit, were under God's wrath when you were born, then you were born with God's wrath not yet turned away from you. So, if in the 20th/21st century God's wrath was still not yet turned away from you, then turning away God's wrath from you is obviously something Jesus had not yet accomplished in the 1st century. Had He already accomplished that 2,000 years ago while on the cross, then you'd not have been under God's wrath when you were born, and God's wrath being turned away from you would not be through your believing, since Christ's death occurred 2,000 years before your believing commenced.

Propitiation is the turning away of the wrath of God.

Which wrath you admit you were born under, 2,000 years after Christ's death--so that wrath was obviously not turned away from you at the time of Christ's death.

---

So, does Jesus become someone's propitiation only when he/she goes from being an unbeliever to being a believer--so that, up until that time of conversion, He had never yet been his/her propitiation?

Well? Yes or No?

 

[Iconoclast]

Philippians was not yet written sir. Would you like to try again, or like to know?

The Covenant of Redemption was in place before the world was.
The members of the trinity, Father ,Son and Spirit planned Redemption of the saved children.
Phillipians just descibesa portion of this unfolding plan.
It looks back and gives Spirit given information on how God came to earth in a body of flesh in order to accomplish redemption as Phil.2 teaches. It expands on what other portions of scripture looked forward to.

 

[Iconoclast]

"from you" is the key there.
God put in place the ways and means of acquiring eternal life.
WE must make the decision to "use the Door".

this is unbiblical.

 

[Hopeful]

"from you" is the key there.
God put in place the ways and means of acquiring eternal life.
WE must make the decision to "use the Door".

this is unbiblical.

How so?
God provided repentance from sin, right?
God provided baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sin, and rebirth, right?
God provides His Holy Ghost to those who choose to repent and get baptized, right?
God provides scripture like 1 Cor 10:13 so we can endure faithfully until the end, right?
But we must use the gifts, or perish.

 

[Paul E. Michael]

WE must make the decision to "use the Door".

this is unbiblical.

Making a decision is unbiblical? I suppose making a wrong decision would be unbiblical. But is making a right decision unbiblical?

 

[Iconoclast]

So, while you were still an unbeliever, you were undergoing God's wrath? When did God turn away His wrath from you?

I have answered this already. Listen my friend, I like to interact with scripture.
I do not play around with words, hypothetical ideas, philosophy, or any such things.
You are fishing for something, I just deal with revealed truth.

At the time Jesus died on the cross in the 1st century,

All the cross work was done on behalf of the elect. From the Divine side they were already known to God.
God tells Jer.1:5...before I formed you in the womb, I knew you, and ordained you to be a prophet to the nations.
We do not know this, and neither did Jeremiah, until God revealed that to him.

or at the time you converted from being an unbeliever to being a believer in the 20th or 21st century?

I did not "convert" to anything. God regenerated me, and worked in me to convert me.

By your pronoun "it" are you referring to an historical event?

It was said of Jesus he had accomplished redemption, 33 years before the cross. It was certain but hadnot taken place in time.

Speaking about an event using past tense language is not the same thing as for the event to have already occurred.

In rev.13 we are told Jesus was the Lamb slain before the foundation of the earth. The Divine side in eternity, and our time are two different thing. It was going to place because it was ordained by God to happen.

What historical event are you saying "was already accomplished even at the incarnation"?

Did you read the text, what does it say?...it was certain.

If you, as you admit, were under God's wrath when you were born, then you were born with God's wrath not yet turned away from you.

children of wrath even as others

So, if in the 20th/21st century God's wrath was still not yet turned away from you,

Correct, or how could Paul say, even as others?

then turning away God's wrath from you is obviously something Jesus had not yet accomplished in the 1st century.

No, that is not obvious to anybody. Jesus finished all he came to accomplish and in fact declared it is finished.

Had He already accomplished that 2,000 years ago while on the cross, then you'd not have been under God's wrath when you were born,

wrong

and God's wrath being turned away from you would not be through your believing,

No. It is through the work of the Spirit effectually drawing me as a sinner ,under God's wrath, to Jesus and giving me a new heart, and new life, alive from the dead. My position having changed from in Adam to In Christ by the ministry of the Holy Spirit.

since Christ's death occurred 2,000 years before your believing commenced.

The work was finished, but i was not here yet. It was certain to happen, but it did not, until the Spirit indwelled me.

Which wrath you admit you were born under, 2,000 years after Christ's death--so that wrath was obviously not turned away from you at the time of Christ's death.

The wrath was not on me until I was born.

---

Well? Yes or No?

No...it was not on me yet.

 

[Iconoclast]

Making a decision is unbiblical? I suppose making a wrong decision would be unbiblical. But is making a right decision unbiblical?

We are not told to make a decision. We are told the Father has chosen to give a multitude to the Son.
Man does not decide anything, it is not up to him. Men really never seek God.
It is God who seeks, and saves. Lk19;10

 

[Paul E. Michael]

So, while you were still an unbeliever, you were undergoing God's wrath? [Yes or No?]

I have answered this already.

Is that a Yes or a No?

While you were still an unbeliever, were you undergoing God's wrath? Yes or No?

Either you were or you were not. Which is it?

 

[Paul E. Michael]

We are not told to make a decision.

Of course we are told to make a decision; every proposition presented to us is a prompt to make a decision as to whether it is true or false.

• If the proposition, P, is true, and you've decided that P is true, then you've decided rightly; but if you've decided that P is false, then you've decided wrongly.
• If the proposition, P, is false, and you've decided that P is false, then you've decided rightly; but if you've decided that P is true, then you've decided wrongly.

If you've never decided that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, then you've never been saved.

Man does not decide anything

You decided to say that. It's false that man does not decide anything, but you've decided that it's true; so, you've decided wrongly therein.

 

[Paul E. Michael]

When did God turn away His wrath from you?

So far, Iconoclast, you have not answered this question. All you have done is told me you have answered it, without having answered it.

 

[Hopeful]

We are not told to make a decision. We are told the Father has chosen to give a multitude to the Son.
Man does not decide anything, it is not up to him. Men really never seek God.
It is God who seeks, and saves. Lk19;10

I wonder why the visiting Jews asked Peter on the day of Pentecost..."What shall we do?"
Peter didn't say..."Nothing, it is already done".

 

[Iconoclast]

Of course we are told to make a decision; every proposition presented to us is a prompt to make a decision as to whether it is true or false.

• If the proposition, P, is true, and you've decided that P is true, then you've decided rightly; but if you've decided that P is false, then you've decided wrongly.
• If the proposition, P, is false, and you've decided that P is false, then you've decided rightly; but if you've decided that P is true, then you've decided wrongly.

If you've never decided that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, then you've never been saved.


You decided to say that. It's false that man does not decide anything, but you've decided that it's true; so, you've decided wrongly therein.

This is philosophical double talk. I told you I do not entertain such garbage.

 

[Iconoclast]

I wonder why the visiting Jews asked Peter on the day of Pentecost..."What shall we do?"
Peter didn't say..."Nothing, it is already done".

lol...I missed the part where Peter said, walk the aisle
with every eye closed, as the music plays softly,just indicate you have weighed it out, and you are going to give Jesus a chance..go ahead raise you hand, no one will even see you...yes, I see that hand
I missed the part where Peter led them in endless choruses of I have decided to follow Jesus, just as I am2
They were commanded to repent and believe the gospel. It is a command, not you deciding anything.

 

[Iconoclast]

So far, Iconoclast, you have not answered this question. All you have done is told me you have answered it, without having answered it.

I answered, you cannot understand it I guess.

 

[Paul E. Michael]

This is philosophical double talk. I told you I do not entertain such garbage.

Did I offend you? Why such hostility from you? Would you like me to call what you say "double talk" and "garbage"?

I answered

That's still false.

 

[Highway54]

The Covenant of Redemption was in place before the world was.
The members of the trinity, Father ,Son and Spirit planned Redemption of the saved children.
Phillipians just descibesa portion of this unfolding plan.
It looks back and gives Spirit given information on how God came to earth in a body of flesh in order to accomplish redemption as Phil.2 teaches. It expands on what other portions of scripture looked forward to.

Let me just state it frankly sir, the verse Jesus quoted was not from the book of Philippians. Would you like to try again, or would you like me to tell you? Do you even care?

 

[Iconoclast]

Let me just state it frankly sir, the verse Jesus quoted was not from the book of Philippians. Would you like to try again, or would you like me to tell you? Do you even care?

I am no longer interested in discussing this with you, as you are wilfully ignorant of the answered offered to you.
You are not going to ignore my responses and try and post over what I said.
Keep your error, learn at the white throne.

 

[Paul E. Michael]

Keep your error, learn at the white throne.

Uh oh, are you judging Highway54 to be not a Christian? That's a violation of this platform's Terms Of Service:

1.4: Do not misquote or misrepresent another member. Do not state a negative opinion about a member's denomination, leaders, founders, or the veracity of a member's faith.

And of its Terms & Conditions:

1.3 Do not post your opinion of another members standing in the Christian faith. Judging someone's soul is not Christ like; only they and God know their relationship with God. This includes collective beliefs and groups in general.

 

[Hopeful]

lol...I missed the part where Peter said, walk the aisle
with every eye closed, as the music plays softly,just indicate you have weighed it out, and you are going to give Jesus a chance..go ahead raise you hand, no one will even see you...yes, I see that hand
I missed the part where Peter led them in endless choruses of I have decided to follow Jesus, just as I am2
They were commanded to repent and believe the gospel. It is a command, not you deciding anything.

Correct.
God may have put the "credit card and PIN" on the table before the world was, but we have to pick it up and use it for its value.