Who Believes We Are In The End Time??

[Elijah674]

Elijah, a simple reference to the differences between last days and last day.

Jesus said the resurrection is the last day.

Did I read your point wrong then???

 

[EDEN2004]

Elijah, a simple reference to the differences between last days and last day.

Jesus said the resurrection is the last day.

Reba, I'm glad you brought that up, where is that in the bible? I would like to read it.

 

[reba]

Joh 6:38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
Joh 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
Joh 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Joh 6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

Joh 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

A bit on the resurrection....

Joh 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
Joh 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
Joh 5:27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

 

[EDEN2004]

Joh 6:38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
Joh 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
Joh 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Joh 6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

Joh 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

A bit on the resurrection....

Joh 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
Joh 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
Joh 5:27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Reba, do you think John 5 is talking about this?

Mat 27:51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
Mat 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
Mat 27:53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

 

[Stormcrow]

Just out of curiosity, what comes after last?

Eternity

If Jesus were alive today and said that America was going to be destroyed – literally wiped off the face of the map – within a generation, what do you suppose “Last day” would mean to us? This generation of Americans would be living in the “last days” of America!

This is exactly what He told His disciples and enemies alike was going to happen to Jerusalem, the center of Jewish national, political, and religious life from the day God gave the land of Canaan to the children of Israel.

So when Peter, a Jew, writes “the end of all things is near”in about 63-64 AD (just before he was martyred in Rome), what do you think he was writing about?

When Martha tells Jesus, "I know that he will rise again in the resurrection on the last day”, she is referring to the prophecy of the resurrection in Daniel 12!

"Now at that time Michael, the great prince who stands guard over the sons of your people, will arise. And there will be a time of distress such as never occurred since there was a nation until that time (Matt. 24:21); and at that time your people, everyone who is found written in the book, will be rescued. "Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt. Daniel 12:1-2 (NASB)

The resurrection is tied to the destruction – the “last day” - of Jerusalem!

Jesus was a Jew. Paul was a Jew. All of the other disciples/apostles were Jews except for Luke, who was a Greek converted by Paul. The entire New Testament (with the exception of Luke and Acts) is written from a Jewish perspective, so to understand what “last day” means, you have to understand what it meant to them: the last day of Jerusalem and the Jewish world as they knew it.

I know people want to think the entire Bible is somehow about 21st century Americans, but really: it's time we got over ourselves.

 

[reba]

Eden, No i do not. There have been many days in these 2000 years...

 

[reba]

Storm

I know people want to think the entire Bible is somehow about 21st century Americans, but really: it's time we got over ourselves.

Here we agree.

The difference between you and I? I believe Christ will come again. I believe there will be A last day, The resurrection.

We have no historical account of... Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

There is the recorded account of resurrected Saints. I would guess history would have recorded the resurrection of all who were in the grave...

 

[reba]

Much of His teaching was about the last days of the Jewish Temple system,70 AD the destruction of Jerusalem.

 

[Stormcrow]

How do you explain the following quotes;

1 Thessalonians 5

1 Now, brothers and sisters, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, 2 for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3 While people are saying, “Peace and safety,” destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.

Notice that people are saying "peace and safety", surely Israel under Roman
rulership was never thinking of peace and safety?

And now it was that a horrible fear seized upon the seditious, insomuch that many of them ran out of the city, as though it were to be taken immediately; but the people upon this took courage, and where the wicked part of the city gave ground, thither did they come, in order to set open the gates, and to admit Cestius as their benefactor, who, had he but continued the siege a little longer, had certainly taken the city; but it was, I suppose, owing to the aversion God had already at the city and the sanctuary, that he was hindered from putting an end to the war that very day.

7. It then happened that Cestius was not conscious either how the besieged despaired of success, nor how courageous the people were for him; and so he recalled his soldiers from the place, and by despairing of any expectation of taking it, without having received any disgrace, he retired from the city, without any reason in the world. But when the robbers perceived this unexpected retreat of his, they resumed their courage, and ran after the hinder parts of his army, and destroyed a considerable number of both their horsemen and footmen...

So the Jews went on pursuing the Romans as far as Antipatris; after which, seeing they could not overtake them, they came back, and took the engines, and spoiled the dead bodies, and gathered the prey together which the Romans had left behind them, and came back running and singing to their metropolis; while they had themselves lost a few only, but had slain of the Romans five thousand and three hundred footmen, and three hundred and eighty horsemen. This defeat happened on the eighth day of the month Dius, [Marchesvan,] in the twelfth year of the reign of Nero.

Flavius Josephus, The Works of Flavius Josephus, trans. William Whiston (Hartford, CN: S. S. Scranton, 1905), WORDsearch CROSS e-book, 721.

Nero became emperor of Rome in 54 AD. The event Josephus describes here in greater detail than I have recounted happened on October 25, 66 AD, the year the Jewish revolt against Roman rule began.

Nero had sent his general, Cestius, to quell the rebellion in Judea by besieging and taking Jerusalem. However, his refusal to enter the city when invited by those who wanted no part of war with Rome – in fact his retreat from the city's gate – encouraged the seditious to attack the Romans as they fled, killing thousands of them and allowing the Jews to believe they had won a victory that would ensure them peace. The Romans would not return in full force until 68 AD when - under the leadership of Vespasian – they would recapture every city in Samaria and Judea except Jerusalem.

While the Romans were dealing with their own civil war that began with the suicide of Nero in June of 68 AD, the Jews had a brief respite from war with Rome when Vespasian returned there to become emperor and end the conflict (year of the four Caesars) that almost destroyed the empire (Rome is the beast that was healed from the fatal head wound).

In 69, however, Vespasian told his son Titus (the prince of the people that would come – Dan. 9:26) to besiege Jerusalem and finish subduing the Jewish revolt, which he did in 70 AD.

But for two years, the lull in hostilities with Rome allowed the Jews in Judea to think that “peace and safety” had come to the land, even though Jerusalem itself was embroiled in its own bitter civil war during this time. The “peace and safety” was illusory and destruction came upon them at the hands of the Romans under Titus on the 9th of AV, 70 AD.

 

[Stormcrow]

Storm

Here we agree.

The difference between you and I? I believe Christ will come again. I believe there will be A last day, The resurrection.

We have no historical account of... Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

There is the recorded account of resurrected Saints. I would guess history would have recorded the resurrection of all who were in the grave...

To whom was the promise of the resurrection made? Again, the answer is in that passage from Daniel 12: the passage that links the resurrection to the destruction of Jerusalem.

"Now at that time Michael, the great prince who stands guard over the sons of your people, will arise. And there will be a time of distress such as never occurred since there was a nation until that time; Daniel 12:1a (NASB)

"For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will. Matthew 24:21 (NASB)

and at that time your people, everyone who is found written in the book, will be rescued. "Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt. Daniel 12:1-2 (NASB)

"But immediately after the tribulation of those days:

• all the tribes of the land will mourn (Zech. 12);
• they (not us) will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds;
• a great trumpet will sound;
• He will send His messengers to gather the elect;
• He will come in His glory with the angels;
• Raise the dead to judgment;
• ascend to His throne and judge the nations.

All of these things happen immediately after the tribulation of those days: the tribulation that leads to the destruction of Jerusalem.

This is what allowed Paul to utter these words to Felix in his own defense:

having hope toward God, which they themselves also wait for, that there is about to be a rising again of the dead, both of righteous and unrighteous; Acts 24:15 (YLT)

Now, the following will sound controversial, but follow the logic here: why would the promise of a bodily resurrection be made to Daniel for his people (the Jews)?

Because the Hebrew view of the grave was a place where both body and soul languished until the resurrection. I submit to you that not one single Christian soul has ever spent one millisecond in the grave, because those who believe in Christ never die. Our souls go straight to the heavenly presence of the Father the moment we pass from this life to the next.

There is no waiting in the ground to be raised, no "soul sleep" for the Christian. This is the blessed hope of the gospel, not that you die and get to lie there in a state of perpetual rest until He gets around to raising you. The hope of the gospel for every believer is that your soul goes immediately to be with the Father and to be in His presence for all eternity.

 

[rainbows]

Hello Stormcrow.

I have no previous experience with the preterist view, I
will have to look into this.

Thanks for the reply #49, although you seemed to present
a reasonable explanation of "peace and safety". I must
admit it seems rather dubious that the Jews would be
thinking of peace and safety. Rome was an empire at
the peak of its power they would have known there would be
repercussions for such a small country as Israel.

They had been under Roman rule for quite an extended
period of time, there would be no delusion as to what the
price would be for this revolt.

Till next time, farewell Stormcrow and thanks for the info.

 

[Stormcrow]

They had been under Roman rule for quite an extended
period of time, there would be no delusion as to what the
price would be for this revolt.

They had also just defeated Rome's 12th Legion and Rome itself became embroiled in a civil war that threatened to destroy the empire. Google "year of the four Caesars."

Rome's gaze was turned inward after Nero died. One more thing: the respite the Jews got after Cestius turned from Jerusalem's gate with the 12th Legion gave those inside the city the opportunity to flee it as Christ had warned:

"But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then recognize that her desolation is near. "Then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains, and those who are in the midst of the city must leave, and those who are in the country must not enter the city; because these are days of vengeance, so that all things which are written will be fulfilled. Luke 21:20-22 (NASB)

 

[rainbows]

Hello Stormcrow.

You said;

"But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then recognize that her desolation is near. "Then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains, and those who are in the midst of the city must leave, and those who are in the country must not enter the city; because these are days of vengeance, so that all things which are written will be fulfilled. Luke 21:20-22 (NASB)

Yes I do agree with your quote above, this is beyond question.
My reply has to do with Luke 21, interesting that you quoted
from Luke. because these are days of vengeance

May I ask whether you cling to partial or full preterism?

If you would not mind may I ask your opinion
on the following verses. I have commented in certain
areas to draw your attention to particular verses.
Luke is clearer in the separation of Israel and the
time of the Gentiles.

Luke 21

7 So they asked Him, saying, “Teacher, but when will these things be? And what sign will there be when these things are about to take place?”

8 And He said: “Take heed that you not be deceived. For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am He,’ and, ‘The time has drawn near.’ Therefore do not go after them. 9 But when you hear of wars and commotions, do not be terrified; for these things must come to pass first, but the end will not come immediately.”

Do not be deceived, saying "the time has drawn near".
When you hear of wars and rumors of wars-but the end
will not come immediately.

10 Then He said to them, “Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. 11 And there will be great earthquakes in various places, and famines and pestilences; and there will be fearful sights and great signs from heaven.

Nation will rise against nation, great earthquakes in various places.
Fearful sights and great signs from heaven. All pre 70AD?

12 But before all these things, they will lay their hands on you and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues and prisons. You will be brought before kings and rulers for My name’s sake. 13 But it will turn out for you as an occasion for testimony. 14 Therefore settle it in your hearts not to meditate beforehand on what you will answer; 15 for I will give you a mouth and wisdom which all your adversaries will not be able to contradict or resist. 16 You will be betrayed even by parents and brothers, relatives and friends; and they will put some of you to death. 17 And you will be hated by all for My name’s sake. 18 But not a hair of your head shall be lost. 19 By your patience possess your souls.

20 “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near."

This appears to be a tempo shift, back to Israel after the
previous verses which appear to be world wide.

21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her. 22 For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 23 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people. 24 And they will fall by the edge of the sword,and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

This is one of the most significant verses. "And Jerusalem will
be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled."
There is no way that preterism can hold its ground here. We are
in the time of the Gentiles, the diaspora has already occurred.
Captives into all nations.

Now the focus shifts back to the Gentile era again.

25 “And there will be signs in the sun, in the moon, and in the stars; and on the earth distress of nations, with perplexity, the sea and the waves roaring; 26 men’s hearts failing them from fear and the expectation of those things which are coming on the earth, for the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 27 Then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28 Now when these things begin to happen, look up and lift up your heads, because your redemption draws near.”

Line 27 & 28, Then they will see signs, this after the time
of the Gentiles is fulfilled. The Gentiles had to have there
time in the sun and utterly ruin the Gospel.

Well Stormcrow I wait impatiently for your reply.

 

[Elijah674]

Much of His teaching was about the last days of the Jewish Temple system,70 AD the destruction of Jerusalem.

Hi, Matt. 24:14 will FINISH by modern tech. TV & the like. (666 persecution world wide) But we know that this verse was known to be a TWICE REPEATED Prophecy. Because of Inspiration after the verse as seen in Rom. 18:10 + Col. 1:23

Matt. 24:14
[14] And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

Rom. 18
[18] But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.

Col. 1
[23] If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

Just a question. If we were back there then, with this known knowledge & with Christ's [Truth] of Matt. 24 verse 14, for us to stay real Christians in Christ would REQUIRE that we also believed the O.T. verses + that of Eccl. 3:15 as did Christ. (Matt. 4:4 & 2 Tim. 3:16)

In other words the Gospel did indeed go into all of the world & Christ did not come! WHY?? Because it REQUIRED A REPEAT!

 

[reba]

rainbow,

The verses in Luke do they not describe 'normal every day' life in the world .

When has there not been wars or rumors of war. When has not a nations been against nations etc...


By the way, again welcome the the boards.

 

[Stormcrow]

May I ask whether you cling to partial or full preterism?

I don't "cling" to any doctrine. I follow the evidence where it leads.

I'll address the rest as I have time.

 

[Stormcrow]

In other words the Gospel did indeed go into all of the world & Christ did not come!

Or He did and people living in the U.S.A. 2,000 years later don't understand the Hebrew idea of what His coming meant.

I bet it's that.

 

[reba]

Rainbow do you believe Jesus is building His Church?

 

[Vic C.]

the founders of the reformation didnt totally agree with you on that. they say as i do he came in ad 70 and will come again. i have a link to matthew henry and adam clarke. both nearly say the same thing on matthew 24.

Hi Jason,

I'm using your post as a jumping back point. I missed some days here and missed a good part of the convo here. :yes

I agree with what you are saying. Your studies here have practically paralleled my own. It seems we're at the same place right now.

I did notice where Storm pointed at all translations from KJV on to have errors, thus changing the beliefs of it's readers.

1- Young was post-KJV, (I do like the YLT for it's consistency), so "all" doesn't really apply and...

2- read the Apostles Creed.

written in like the 3rd. or 4th. century.

"... he ascended into heaven,
and is seated at the right hand of God the Father almighty;
from there he will come to judge the living and the dead...."

"He will come to judge the living and the dead."

It appears the ECFs and beyond were also looking for a future, physical return. Not only would they be closer the the time of the written word, but also closer to whatever oral teachings going on that weren't recorded in scripture.

But I'm also thinking they would be rather taken back if subjected to today's futuristic teachings.

I believe the partial and historical preterists like Henry, Clarke, Sproul, etc. have the proper perspective and belief.

... and just to put this on topic, nearly every generation has it's own "end Times.' ;)

 

[rainbows]

Hello Reba, thanks again for the welcome.

I do not believe we are seeing "normal" days
by any measure. Please note some of the
phrases used in Luke 21.

" do not be terrified;"

"because these are days of vengeance"

"there will be great earthquakes in various places"

"there will be fearful sights and great signs"

"and be led away captive into all nations."

“And there will be signs in the sun, in the moon, and in the stars; and on the earth distress of nations, with perplexity, the sea and the waves roaring; "

What is your opinion Reba?

Regarding your second post.

Yes, Jesus is the head of the invisible,
non denominational, spiritual, church.
It is a work in progress.