Jesus called the Old Testament Scripture.
And Peter called Paul's letters Scripture.
Christian Forums
This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!
-
Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
-
Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
-
-
Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
-
-
How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
-
Who can answer this?
- Thread starter Rollo Tamasi
- Start date
And Peter called Paul's letters Scripture.
T
Tristan
Guest
1) Every single time it is mentioned, it is in the context of immorality. A heterosexual relationship can be substituted in there...because adultery is immoral and you can be immoral and be heterosexual. Nowhere in scripture does it say that loving, committed relationships are immoral. I don't support it as being right to be homosexual, but that is a personal opinion, and I still believe they have a right. So I would bring up the same verses as you would, and explain their context, both historical and scriptural.
2) Did Jesus say anything about homosexuality?....................*crickets*
3) Just as a side note, I believe in complete separation of church and state for the good of society...which partially informs my perspective.
Yes, I would assert that the OT and Paul's letters are scripture as well...but most of the NT is under debate. I'll leave my Bible alone the way it is, but there are others who would dispute that other books should be added or removed. Which of these are scripture, and how do we know?
Also, we find ourselves taking Peter's word on what scripture is. What made him the arbiter of what is and isn't scripture? People can play hardball...so I've learned to deal with their questions.
Okay, let's get down to the really important matters.
If the Bible is questionable as to whether it is really his living Word, then how does one get saved?
If the Bible is questionable as to whether it is really his living Word, then how does one get saved?
Last edited:
T
Tristan
Guest
The work of the Holy Spirit causing acceptance of Jesus in one's heart. This is demonstrated by your external works...the fruit of the tree. God provides salvation because the grace through Jesus clears their sins.
Okay, but if you question the validity of the Bible, how do you know this to be true?
Do you just pick and choose what passages you want to believe are true and discard the ones you think are not truly Scripture?
Do you just pick and choose what passages you want to believe are true and discard the ones you think are not truly Scripture?
Webster - http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/inspiration
a : a divine influence or action on a person believed to qualify him or her to receive and communicate sacred revelation
b : the action or power of moving the intellect or emotions
c : the act of influencing or suggesting opinions
2
: the act of drawing in; specifically : the drawing of air into the lungs
3
a : the quality or state of being inspired
b : something that is inspired <a scheme that was pureinspiration>
4
: an inspiring agent or influence
If inspiration were limited to the above description, do you personally believe God would use those whom He chose to express their personal thoughts as profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness?
Would Jonah’s personal reaction of not obeying the inspiration of God produce the result he suffered?
Paul put it this way in one of His comments in 1 Cor 9:16, For though I preach the gospel, I have nothing to glory of: for necessity is laid upon me; yea, woe is unto me, if I preach not the gospel!
What necessity was this?
1 Cor 9:17 For if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward: but if against my will, a dispensation of the gospel is committed unto me.
Could Paul have just thought that God wants him to just preach anything? Paul did seem to have his personal rights infringed upon as God took hold of them on the road to Damacus.
Paul went on to say in Gal 1:11 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man. Gal 1:12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.
sourberry
Member
Well, why do not you align what Jesus or Peter called the scripture with your definition of the Scripture, because it may have nothing to do with what people decided to canonize as being a scripture, as I think.
Why would anything that you write not become the Scripture? Are you moved by a different Spirit?
I will answer this question for you. Anything that you, or Eugene, or reba are writing is a Scripture to me. You see? I weigh everything in my heart.
th1b.taylor
Member
sourberry,
You speak of the character of God as though He can be measured by some set of standards we are familiar with but that is not true. With a, now, 24 year study of the Holy Scriptures, the Holy Spirit has taught me that there is nothing to compare God with, certainly not man, a man nor any man's standards.
The discussion might point out that Jesus, the Son of God, the Father, was a man but that does not ring true because Jesus was not "just" a man, He was also, fully, God. When I am taught anything by the Spirit that dwells in me, I can see if it is of God or determine that it is of the Evil Ones by checking it against what God has kept for us to use as our 'standard," the Bible.
People did not, just, decide to Canonize some old writings and to, then, call them scripture. Your idea,[edited personal comment by staff] can never jive with the fact that God is Omnipotent. God has never forced anyone to be saved and yet, just as He did a couple of Egyptian Pharaohs, God uses every single person on the face of the Earth to work His perfect will. We must never forget that God's ways are not our ways. Isa, 55:9, Pro. 14.12, 1Cor. 1:20, 1Cor. 2:13 and many, many more.
Last edited by a moderator:
th1b.taylor
Member
So very right and then in Romans 1 He inspired Paul to affirm that Homosexuality is pure sin.
T
Tristan
Guest
I'm not sure this addresses whether or not God tells people exactly what to say. When I'm inspired to write, or an artist is inspired to draw/paint...are they being directly told what to do? No, they'e inspired with an idea or a message to convey and it leaves room to communicate a message in one's own language...to people of the same culture.
So what is the revelation of Jesus Christ? The only reason we know who he is, is because man wrote of him and testified of him. What did John the Baptist do? He testified of the coming Christ. The scriptures are a testimony to God and Jesus and the plan of salvation. They are written by men who were inspired by God...but he didn't sit there dictating to them. This is yet another reason why this "three separate people" God is a problem. The revelation of Jesus Christ is the same thing as a revelation from God and a revelation from the Holy Spirit...the Holy Spirit working through man.
People can preach the gospel without literally knowing Christ. Do you love others and tell others to do the same? You're obeying Jesus' commands and telling others to do the same.
I'm always a little careful in terms of assigning the "scripture" label to the teachings of everyone...because there are doctrines that are problematic.
You bring up a couple important points. Keep asking your questions, they're appropriately penetrating.
This is exactly why I'm not threatened by diversity. The same Spirit that speaks to me is speaking to others here, and speaking to you. It's the same entity and you bring up a completely valid point. There shouldn't be a threat in diversity.
"Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world.By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you heard was coming and now is in the world already." -1 John 4:1-3
It says that every spirit that confesses Christ (whether literal or otherwise) is from God. EVERY one. They can be opposed to each other, but rather than it being about one being wrong and the other being right, it's more about the harmony as they work with each other. You are more effective in reaching a wider range of people if you have a wide variety of perspectives and beliefs. Weigh it in your heart. Right after that section in 1 John comes a section about love and I feel that's the perfect place to put it.
"Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God, and whoever loves has been born of God and knows God. Anyone who does not love does not know God, because God is love. In this the love of God was made manifest among us, that God sent his only Son into the world, so that we might live through him. In this is love, not that we have loved God but that he loved us and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.Beloved, if God so loved us, we also ought to love one another." -1 John 4:7-11
Are we preaching a message of love? If yes, then we are preaching of Christ who directly commanded us to love. The details aside from that really don't matter in the end. That will be set straight one day. I think weighing everything in your heart is important, however your heart must be one of love, or else you're just deceiving yourself.
I was thinking about what you've written so far. I like that you pull the gospels apart into individuals...just for a moment. Each one is a single man's testimony to their own experience with Christ. God means something a little bit different to them. Each one should stand alone as a testimony to God/Jesus/Spirit. They become even stronger when we combine them. As a unit of 4, they are very compelling. Even further, the purpose of the Church is for everyone to share their experiences so that all of us can learn about God. We all have something different to bring to the table.
I think you've got it the other way around. Men were inspired to write about Jesus, the words of MEN point to God as a testimony. The Word itself is Jesus, and the scriptures point to him.
Locking the thread for moderator review.
I have now had an opportunity to slow things down and review this thread more closely. I apologize for any confusion but I was short on time and was concerned about some of what I was reading and wanted to take time to review things more slowly.
I will reopen this thread but ask that you all review the ToS and SoF to be sure to keep these in mind while posting. Particularly the following.
ToS
2.1: This is a Christian site, therefore, any attempt to put down Christianity (or declare that it is false) and the basic tenets of our Faith will be considered a hostile act.
Active promotion of sinful behavior will not be permitted. This includes promotion of sexual sin and/or homosexual behavior.
2.4: No Trolling. Do not make an inflammatory remark just to get a response. Address issues not personalities. Respect where people are in their spiritual walk, and respect all others in general. Respect where others are in their spiritual walk, do not disrupt the flow of discussion or act in a way that affects others negatively including when debating doctrinal issues, in the defense of the Christian faith, and in offering unwelcome spiritual advice.
SoF
We believe that the Bible is inspired by God in its entirety, and is without error in the original autographs, a complete and final written revelation from God.
We believe that Jesus of Nazareth is the promised Messiah, born of a virgin, totally without sin, God in human flesh, the One Who died on the cross for our sins, was buried, rose again from the dead on the third day, and ascended to the right hand of the Father in heaven, where He now intercedes for us who believe in Him.
Carry on.
WIP
I have now had an opportunity to slow things down and review this thread more closely. I apologize for any confusion but I was short on time and was concerned about some of what I was reading and wanted to take time to review things more slowly.
I will reopen this thread but ask that you all review the ToS and SoF to be sure to keep these in mind while posting. Particularly the following.
ToS
2.1: This is a Christian site, therefore, any attempt to put down Christianity (or declare that it is false) and the basic tenets of our Faith will be considered a hostile act.
Active promotion of sinful behavior will not be permitted. This includes promotion of sexual sin and/or homosexual behavior.
2.4: No Trolling. Do not make an inflammatory remark just to get a response. Address issues not personalities. Respect where people are in their spiritual walk, and respect all others in general. Respect where others are in their spiritual walk, do not disrupt the flow of discussion or act in a way that affects others negatively including when debating doctrinal issues, in the defense of the Christian faith, and in offering unwelcome spiritual advice.
SoF
We believe that the Bible is inspired by God in its entirety, and is without error in the original autographs, a complete and final written revelation from God.
We believe that Jesus of Nazareth is the promised Messiah, born of a virgin, totally without sin, God in human flesh, the One Who died on the cross for our sins, was buried, rose again from the dead on the third day, and ascended to the right hand of the Father in heaven, where He now intercedes for us who believe in Him.
Carry on.
WIP
Last edited:
Let me start by saying that I think Claudia's reply is brilliant and she come across as a person that would bring a great deal of value to any study group.
A way this could be approached would be to address the "you ought to be good" by asking the question of why is that the case? Does being good benefit me and others? Does not being good come with consequences anf if so what are they? Once these answers are given then we can better run with the idea of being good as a prescription that leads to a real tangible and measurable benefit much the same way prescriptive medication should lead to a favorable health outcome.
Do you understand the difference between the Ten Commandments and the Ten Suggestions? Since the latter does not exist, it is a rhetorical question.
Paul called the OT a "schoolmaster unto righteousness"
Galatians 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
The purpose of the schoolmaster is to inculcate truth so that error is avoided. What good would a schoolmaster be if he taught that 2+2 sometimes = 10?25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
ASIDE There 10 sorts of people in the world: those who understand binary and those who don't. 
What you are doing is dabbling in the metaphysical area, and not seeing things from the perspective of God, who is the ultimate author of Scripture. In doing that, you then create a well-intentioned but blasphemous thought against God because you essentially postulate that God did not mean what He said in the Bible, is consequently confused, and neither omniscient nor omnipotent. Essentially, He is a lesser god in that construction.
While this does not apply directly to you, I believe that the implication of this passage is significant:
Romans 1: 21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things
22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things
One beauty of the Gospel unto salvation is that it is so simple so that those who are classified as "simpletons" can understand the truth of this: "Jesus Christ died for your sins, accept him as your savior, you will be in heaven with Him." That is the entire Gospel in less than 20 words. Please do not make it more complicated than that.
Excuse me, huh? I am having trouble following how you arrived at this conclusion. I'd never, nor did I ever say anything that is remotely that disrespectful to God or His Word.
In response to the first post, all I was saying was that it would be a good idea to answer the potential question of WHY we ought to be good so that its benefits will be apparent. Benefits like pleasing an all powerful God, avoiding the wrath of God against unrighteousness are all advantages of being good that we as Christians would do well to promote.
My understanding is that according to Paul, the Law as schoolmaster was implemented in order to help his people understand what sin was (Gal 3:20). It was a guide to them to help a people struggling with sin live more holy lives that pleased the LORD. So the Law apparently only needed to be written and put in place because the people were not doing what they should have been doing naturally as Paul indicated in Galatians 2 when we spoke of the Gentiles that "naturally obey things in the law" though they weren't given the Law.
The phrase "10 Commandments" is actually a misnomer. Didi you know that the Hebrew phrase actually translates into English as "The 10 Words or Statements?" It can be said that these 10 statements were the words that made up the covenant between God and the Israelites.
http://christianity.stackexchange.c...n-commandments-sometimes-called-the-decalogue
http://www.torahatlanta.com/files/The_Ten_Commandments.html
TheCurseoftheRodain
Member
Hi Tristan, where is it written that we may murder in certain instances? The commandment was "thou shalt not murder".
People have the rights that GOD has ordained, and no others (a pointing the 56 Founding Fathers who wrote the Declaration of Independence recognized when they stated the rights we have are given by God and are therefore inalienable). A government licensing sin doesn't give anyone the right to a sacred institution that God gave us as the foundation of all society (marriage). Marriage was given and defined to us by God Himself starting with Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden. It is always only 1 man and 1 woman becoming 1 forever. If people who practice the sin of homosexuality want to spend time together it by definition cannot be referred to as "marriage" of any kind, for there is only 1 marriage and God has spoken. He doesn't need to make any amendments, He was right the first time.
When you say God does the judging, you are referencing what God has already judged as sin. The judgements that will come refer to what we have done in this life with our callings and for unbelievers whether or not they accept Jesus as their sacrifice for sin (for all sin has been forgiven already at the Cross of Christ). The judgements also refer to the rewards we will get for what we have done and whether our work for Him according to our calling passes the test of the fire it will pass through.
TheCurseoftheRodain
Member
AMEN!
TheCurseoftheRodain
Member
As well, Tristan, HOW can Jesus be THE Word but NOT be the words you see in the Bible? In Revelation He is called The Word of God. How can He be the Word of God but not the Bible? What Word is He talking about if not the Bible? What you are saying makes no sense whatsoever, nor does it make faith at all.
Jesus IS the Living Word, He is the Word of God, which means He is what God has said. God speaks to people how He has said He would in His Word, according to the Covenant He has signed in His own blood. When God spoke to Balaam, He spoke it through a donkey. A DONKEY said what God wanted said to Balaam. It's still God's Word whether the donkey's mouth said or He said it directly because they are both HIS words that He wanted said. So when Peter or Paul or James or ... say what they say in their letters and God wanted that to be His Word, it is so. They didn't know that God would do that - they didn't find out until Heaven. But God honored what they said because it was the Holy Spirit speaking through them.
What do you call it when a Word of Wisdom (about the future) is given or a Word of Knowledge (specific knowledge only God would know about someone); BOTH of these are gifts of the Holy Spirit, and it is the Holy Spirit speaking in both instances though it comes out of the mouth of a MAN (OR WOMAN). So now suddenly because the Holy Spirit didn't physically appear and you didn't see HIS mouth moving you say it wasn't the HOly Spirit? Heresy.
It's the Holy Spirit speaking through men to do His work. Jesus said He didn't speak His own words, but those of the Father who sent Him - so by your own logic this stuff is defeated, because here is the Word of God speaking and it is not HIM, but the Father who is speaking through Him, a man (God in a man's body, but still the Son of Man (or else He could not say that anyone who believes in Him would do all the same works He had done and even greater, because if He did those things as the Son of God, with special God-only powers, as opposed to through faith in God and His Word, then we could not do them and Jesus would be a liar (which He is not)).
And thanks to 2 Timothy 3:16-17 we know that ALL Scripture has been given to us as inspiration by the Holy Spirit! Ka-BOOM.
Jesus IS the Living Word, He is the Word of God, which means He is what God has said. God speaks to people how He has said He would in His Word, according to the Covenant He has signed in His own blood. When God spoke to Balaam, He spoke it through a donkey. A DONKEY said what God wanted said to Balaam. It's still God's Word whether the donkey's mouth said or He said it directly because they are both HIS words that He wanted said. So when Peter or Paul or James or ... say what they say in their letters and God wanted that to be His Word, it is so. They didn't know that God would do that - they didn't find out until Heaven. But God honored what they said because it was the Holy Spirit speaking through them.
What do you call it when a Word of Wisdom (about the future) is given or a Word of Knowledge (specific knowledge only God would know about someone); BOTH of these are gifts of the Holy Spirit, and it is the Holy Spirit speaking in both instances though it comes out of the mouth of a MAN (OR WOMAN). So now suddenly because the Holy Spirit didn't physically appear and you didn't see HIS mouth moving you say it wasn't the HOly Spirit? Heresy.
It's the Holy Spirit speaking through men to do His work. Jesus said He didn't speak His own words, but those of the Father who sent Him - so by your own logic this stuff is defeated, because here is the Word of God speaking and it is not HIM, but the Father who is speaking through Him, a man (God in a man's body, but still the Son of Man (or else He could not say that anyone who believes in Him would do all the same works He had done and even greater, because if He did those things as the Son of God, with special God-only powers, as opposed to through faith in God and His Word, then we could not do them and Jesus would be a liar (which He is not)).
And thanks to 2 Timothy 3:16-17 we know that ALL Scripture has been given to us as inspiration by the Holy Spirit! Ka-BOOM.