Who created Satan?

[Rollo Tamasi]

This has nothing to do with free will.
Who or What created the negative?
God is positive.

It's the mirror affect.
We know there are two sides to everything.
In order for us to see good, we need to know bad.
If everything was good, we wouldn't know it as good, we would know as being what there is, call it what you like.
Satan figured out bad.
What happened after that is history.

 

[smaller]

Your the only one who mentioned the phrase... perfect as Jesus presently.

Therefore, having these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God. 2 Corinthians 7:1

I do not believe that "any" self righteousness can make one's self Jesus. I would even consider that the opposite direction of Grace.

We are told to "cleans ourselves" from all filthiness of flesh and spirit.

Loners don't exist in christianity.

1 Corinthians 15:10
But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.

Do you believe this?

Not whatsoever. Anybody who thinks they are apart from the Spirit of Christ within them probably doesn't have a clue about Christianity. Everyone who thinks themselves, as working alone to produce anything knows nothing of Grace or His Spirit in them.

There is no such vessel attached to our flesh.

Again, we'd disagree:

1 Corinthians 5:5
To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

Obviously TWO vessels above. Certainly not just "a single individual."

This sounds very much like Gnostic teaching.

Gnostic error is primarily defined by anyone who thinks that "material" is evil. I do not believe that. Evil is an adverse spiritual matter directed by the "spirit of disobedience" who is SATAN.

Are you teaching Gnosticism?

What that may be to you, only you can define. You are welcome to put me on the mat if you have a basis to converse with.

We are portrayed as either a vessel for honor or a vessel for dishonor.

Again, I would not only disagree, but strongly disagree. We are to clean ourselves FROM the spirit of disobedience, which I do NOT believe is "the believer" but our adversary, Satan, and his own. Eph. 2:2, and as given in the prior example. NOR are there any accounts of "vessels of dishonor" changing into "vessels of honor." There is only DIVISION available, one from the other. If we see ourselves as a vessel of dishonor, we are simply deceived and blinded by that "other vessel." Such vessels of dishonor are not changed or saved, but guaranteed to be discarded.

There is zero depiction of ANY "spirit of disobedience" changing itself into a spirit of obedience anywhere in the Bible. Nor any vessel of dishonor changing into a vessel of honor. Such depictions don't exist in the Bible. Nor does Satanic salvation exist. It's a non-starter.

It is the choice of each believer in Christ Jesus, to "cleanse himself"from being a vessel for dishonor", "so that" that person himself, will be a vessel for honor, fit for the master's use.

Again, we simply disagree. The spirit of disobedience is exactly that. A RESISTING spirit to the Spirit of God in Christ, specifically the devil and his messengers. Eph. 2:2, and other similar.

Spirits of disobedience are neither changed or saved, but will land assuredly in the LoF for EVER and ever. End of their story.

 

[GodsGrace]

It's the mirror affect.
We know there are two sides to everything.
In order for us to see good, we need to know bad.
If everything was good, we wouldn't know it as good, we would know as being what there is, call it what you like.
Satan figured out bad.
What happened after that is history.

We need bad to appreciate the good?
Is this what you're saying?

Wondering

 

[WIP]

We need bad to appreciate the good?
Is this what you're saying?

Wondering

In order for us to even understand bad we need to understand good.
What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, “You shall not covet.” But sin, taking opportunity by the commandment, produced in me all manner of evil desire. For apart from the law sin was dead. I was alive once without the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died. And the commandment, which was to bring life, I found to bring death. For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it killed me. Therefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good. Romans 7:7-12 NKJV

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

We need bad to appreciate the good?
Is this what you're saying?

Wondering

That's one way of putting it.

 

[JLB]

I do not believe that "any" self righteousness can make one's self Jesus. I would even consider that the opposite direction of Grace.

Therefore, having these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God. 2 Corinthians 7:1


I'll take that as a No, you don't believe what Paul teaches, about cleansing ourselves of all filthiness of flesh and spirit.


It is becoming clear as to why you believe we are to live a defeated life beat down by Satan and helpless against sin.

Again, I would not only disagree, but strongly disagree. We are to clean ourselves FROM the spirit of disobedience, which I do NOT believe is "the believer" but our adversary, Satan, and his own. Eph. 2:2, and as given in the prior example. NOR are there any accounts of "vessels of dishonor" changing into "vessels of honor." There is only DIVISION available, one from the other. If we see ourselves as a vessel of dishonor, we are simply deceived and blinded by that "other vessel." Such vessels of dishonor are not changed or saved, but guaranteed to be discarded.

There is zero depiction of ANY "spirit of disobedience" changing itself into a spirit of obedience anywhere in the Bible. Nor any vessel of dishonor changing into a vessel of honor. Such depictions don't exist in the Bible. Nor does Satanic salvation exist. It's a non-starter.

But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and silver, but also of wood and clay, some for honor and some for dishonor.
Therefore if anyone cleanses himself from the latter, he will be a vessel for honor, sanctified and useful for the Master, prepared for every good work. 2 Timothy 2:20-21

The language is clear in this passage Paul writes.

...if anyone cleanses himself from the latter, he will be a vessel for honor,

The spirit of disobedience resides in the unbeliever, who are are called sons of disobedience.

And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, Ephesians 2:1-2

Believers are those who have repented and turned to God, being delivered from the power of Satan unto God.

17 I will deliver you from the Jewish people, as well as from the Gentiles, to whom I now send you, 18 to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.’ Acts 26:17-18


Believers are those who are translated out of the kingdom and domain of darkness into the kingdom of God, no longer under the power of Satan.

We are no longer sinners, but saints in God's kingdom.

...giving thanks to the Father who has qualified us to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in the light. 13 He has delivered us from the power of darkness and conveyed us into the kingdom of the Son of His love, 14 in whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins. Colossians 1:12-14

He has delivered us from the power of darkness and conveyed us into the kingdom of the Son.

He has delivered us from the power of darkness...



JLB

 

[smaller]

Therefore, having these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God. 2 Corinthians 7:1

I'll take that as a No, you don't believe what Paul teaches, about cleansing ourselves of all filthiness of flesh and spirit.

When we are saved, THIS PARTY is who we are "DIVIDED" from:

Acts 26:18
To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

Ephesians 2:
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

If anyone thinks that Satan gives up ANY of us from warring and battles, they are clueless. We are in constant warring with our "adversary," the spirit of disobedience. Mark 4:15, Romans 7:7-13, Romans 7:17-21, Romans 7:23. Eph. 6:11-12.

It is becoming clear as to why you believe we are to live a defeated life beat down by Satan and helpless against sin.

I reject your claims as being what I cite and believe. We live a warring life with a very real adverse spiritual component involved that is NOT us as believers.

When we blur these lines, then we see like you see, completely ignorant of the other parties.

Do we have "works of darkness" to cast off? No question about it. Those works of darkness are of Satan, and sin. 1 John 3:8.

Romans 13:12
The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light.

 

[GodsGrace]

That's one way of putting it.

Okay. But are you saying that God created the bad so that we could appreciate the good?
Or are you saying that somehow WE create the bad?

W

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Okay. But are you saying that God created the bad so that we could appreciate the good?
Or are you saying that somehow WE create the bad?

W

If you keep this up, I'll say YOU created the bad.

 

[smaller]

Okay. But are you saying that God created the bad so that we could appreciate the good?
Or are you saying that somehow WE create the bad?

W

God purposefully placed us with "evil present with us" ROMANS 7:21, precisely to come to know the MERCY OF GOD in Christ.

Without this evil present, we have no "adverse driving force" to push or FORCE us into HIS MERCY.

Romans 11:32
For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

We may not care all that much for the reality, that GOD DID THIS, but it's what I might call, "tough bounce." IF God uses "evil, sin and disobedience" to force us into HIS MERCY, so be it. God WILL have His Mercy, enforced, whether we like it or NOT. That is how "Heaven" rolls on for "eternity." With ETERNAL things, like MERCY and GRACE.

Learn how it works. Only HIS ETERNAL THINGS exist in HIS ETERNAL PLACE.

Psalm 106:1
Praise ye the Lord. O give thanks unto the Lord; for he is good: for his mercy endureth for ever.

Why does God have Eternal MERCY? Without Divine Eternal MERCY God could not tolerate ANYTHING less than Himself.

He "accepts and tolerates" creation through the Divine Avenue of HIS MERCY.

Otherwise we'd all be less than burnt toast.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Okay. But are you saying that God created the bad so that we could appreciate the good?
Or are you saying that somehow WE create the bad?

W

 

[Free]

This is a really difficult subject for me JLB.
God created Lucifer.
Lucifer became satan.
But what conditions were necessary for Lucifer to become satan?
Negative conditions for sure.
Certainly the negative conditions already existed for Lucifer to be able to choose them.
WHO created the negative conditions if God is all good and omnipotent?
I believe there is no answer to this dilemma.

Wondering

As I have stated repeatedly in this thread, Lucifer never became Satan, as there is no being in the Bible with the name Lucifer. It was simply a title applied to a king. Nothing more.

Regarding evil:

 

[smaller]

As I have stated repeatedly in this thread, Lucifer never became Satan, as there is no being in the Bible with the name Lucifer. It was simply a title applied to a king. Nothing more.

Regarding evil:

Illogical discourse. Evil is said to be a "power" in the scriptures, and yes, it is a very real "power" as is obviously shown in creation. The notion that evil is a non-existing donut hole is ridiculous. Evil is also defined from the very beginning as "knowledge of" same.

To say these are not "real" or not "created" is simply not true.

Genesis 2:9
And out of the ground made the Lord God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

Do we see only "good" in that equation? Uh, no.

Can any particular thing, such as the "knowledge of evil" or even evil itself work for the GOOD in Gods Hands? Assuredly.

Romans 8:28
And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

Micah 2:1
Woe to them that devise iniquity, and work evil upon their beds! when the morning is light, they practise it, because it is in the power of their hand.

Habakkuk 2:9
Woe to him that coveteth an evil covetousness to his house, that he may set his nest on high, that he may be delivered from the power of evil!

We are not "delivered" from a donut hole:

Matthew 6:13
And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.

Temptation in the above is a DIRECT LINK to what "evil" is.

We also know that "evil" comes from "within." From the heart, and from evil thoughts, which DO present us in a genuinely DEFILED state, because of this presence of "internal evil." Which Paul also had, himself. Romans 7:21.

Matt. 15:19-20, Mark 7:21-23 and Mark 5:28

And yes, God DID make evil, and set it IN the heart of man:

Deuteronomy 30:15
See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil;

Is death real? Then so is "evil." Neither would we say life and good are not also "real" things.

The bottom line is that God "created" all things. Period. There is no logical way to "extract" Gods Hands from any "thing" that exists in His creation, and that would also include delusion and derision about this subject.

Isaiah 66:4
I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose that in which I delighted not.

Psalm 2:4
He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision.

God can create any "thing" and any "power" and whatever/what have we, and the whole lot of all things would STILL remain vastly inferior to The Maker, regardless.

Just because God 'creates' any thing does not mean He Is that which is "created." That is technically pantheism, when people claim God Is what He creates. It's simply not true. It's pantheism.

God, please deliver me from these non-existing donut holes called "death" and "evil" makes zero sense. How anyone can define that as "scriptural reasoning" is beyond me.

Only a 'true heart' can understand that we do have an evil conscience. A conscience over ruled by evil can not admit this truth. Evil is, by it's evil nature, a LIAR. John 8:44.

Hebrews 10:
22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

 

[Free]

Illogical discourse.

Show how it is illogical. I'm not going to just take your opinion on it.

 

[smaller]

Show how it is illogical. I'm not going to just take your opinion on it.

You are welcome to employ a response to the post already made, line by line if you prefer.

 

[turnorburn]

Albert Pike thought that Lucifer was more than a king...

 

[GodsGrace]

As I have stated repeatedly in this thread, Lucifer never became Satan, as there is no being in the Bible with the name Lucifer. It was simply a title applied to a king. Nothing more.

Regarding evil:

If I remember, I had already said that the problem here is not that we call Lucifer satan. What you want to call evil is irrelevant. What IS relevant is that it exists.

I cannot think of evil as a hole. It's a real thing. It lives and has an affect on us. It is not the absence of good.

What is a hurricane? Is a hurricane the absence of a mild breeze? Or is a hurricane a very strong wind? What made it become a strong wind?

How do you understand Romans 8:19-22?

The whole creation is injected and affected by evil and awaiting freedom from the slavery of sin.

Wondering

 

[GodsGrace]

On these threads we enjoy analyzing and diagnosing everything.

W

 

[smaller]

Albert Pike thought that Lucifer was more than a king...

Apparently said Lucifer was in heaven.

Isaiah 14:
12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer,

Must have beat Jesus to the finish line. Then they tossed him out. Cheated to win the race, I heard.

And the same claimants, that Lucifer is NOT Satan, also claim that some "king or prince" of Tyre was "in the Garden of Eden" along with Adam and Eve, even though the guy wasn't even born yet and MAN was chucked out of the Garden of Eden in Chapter 3 of Genesis.

Ezekiel 28:
12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord God; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.
13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God

Theologians do it with a straight face, and wonder why they get called on the carpet of accountability to scriptures?

 

[smaller]

I've heard many theologians claim evil only exists because of a lack of good.

Maybe good exists because of a lack of evil? Maybe light exits only because of a lack of darkness? It is a bizarre form of logic that is employed to keep and protect "their versions" of God from actually "creating" evil, which Gods Word says He did and does.

Isaiah 45:7
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

Joshua 23:15
Therefore it shall come to pass, that as all good things are come upon you, which the Lord your God promised you; so shall the Lord bring upon you all evil things, until he have destroyed you from off this good land which the Lord your God hath given you.

This particular heresy, of claiming God did not create "evil" got so bad that Marcion denied the entire Old Testament was the Word of God, and that there was "another creator," a demi-urge.

I'll admit theodicy is not an easy theological nut to crack. But extracting God out of being involved with at a bare minimum, "retributive evil" can't and won't compute, because retributive evil FROM GOD is well set fact of scripture.