Who created Satan?

[Kidron]

WHERE does evil come from?

-
Evil comes from the heart....
Matthew 15:19
Mark 7:21

See, "evil" is obtuse....its really just a value placed on a deed by comparing it to a moral standard defined as "holy", or 'righteous", or "true", or "good".
So, the farther in value a deed is from those, then the more "evil" the value of it is esteemed to be based on a moral standard that God has installed down here.

When God drowned the world, and when He burned the twin cities of Sodom & Gomorrah, He did it for this reason...:

"""God SAW that every intent of the thoughts of their hearts was only EVIL continually"""

In other words, there is a condition of such total moral depravity..... that moral depravity seems to the person, as normal or even natural or good.
Our Supreme Court has recently given "civil rights" to moral depravity,.... is how twisted the USA has become.
So...This is a "depraved mind", and this is a homosexual lifestyle that you found in those twin cities.
God did what he did, to judge their sin, but also to keep their depravity from spreading into HIS others.
See, Depravity does not reproduce, it recruits.
Depravity is a terminal cancer of the mind, of the inner man, and unless this situation is reversed by being born again, then there is no remedy for it.
So, God burned and drowned it out.
Thats a fact.

 

[Free]

Was the Prince of Tyrus ever in the garden of Eden, no, but God set Lucifer/Satan over it to take care of it, Ezekiel 28:11-19, who do you think the anointed Cherub was in vs. 14. Same with Isaiah 14:12-14 does it say Lucifer or the king of Babylon in vs.12. Both are dual references.

Neither are dual references. One can only get Satan from those passages by reading Satan into those passages.

As for "Lucifer" mentioned in Isa., that seems to be a problem with the KJV. Not only do few, if any, other translations use "Lucifer," it is only used in that passage in the KJV. "Lucifer" is Latin, meaning "morning star," which is how most translations translate it. There is absolutely no warrant for thinking this is referring to Satan. None whatsoever.

 

[for_his_glory]

I see that Isaiah could be describing the fall of Satan and why but I'm looking for where the Bible describes what you wrote. Can you show me where I can find all of this? For some reason I seemed to have missed where all of this is described even though I've heard a number of stories about Satan prior to the fall.

• That he was "perfect in all his ways with beauty, wisdom and freewill."
• That "God placed him as the guardian or protector over the throne of God in heaven."
• That "He was entrusted with many possessions and found much favor in the Lord."
• That "God created the earth and saw that it was good and he took Lucifer from Gods Holy Mountain and set him over the Garden of Eden as a covering cherub to watch over and enjoy all that was of God."
• That "As Lucifer was set in the garden iniquity was soon found in him as he defiled Gods sanctuary through pride in his own beauty and deceit as he wanted all that was of Gods here on earth to be his own as he tried to make his throne above the angels and be God."

A lamentation is an act of lamenting or grief as found in vs.12. It grieved God because of the fall of the Prince of Tyrus as he was no different than Satan when he was set in the Garden of Eden as an anointed Cherub of God until greed and a prideful attitude caused his fall just like the Prince of Tyrus. Ezekiel 28:11-17 is all about Lucifer/Satan and shows everything I said.

Ezekiel 28:11 Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me, saying, 12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty. 13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created. 14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. 15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee. 16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire. 17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.

 

[Free]

Really? So, you don't see the captivity of Satan upon ALL unsaved mankind and hence our NEED for our Savior?

The unsaved are not termed "captives" for no reason. They do have a captor. Acts 26:18, Romans 11:8, 2 Cor. 3:14, 2 Cor. 4:4 and Eph. 2:2 ALL address this captivity of Satan and it happens to exactly everyone just as Mark 4:15 dictates.

How does this address what I have said? Jesus is speaking of a certain "word" that is being spoken. If you look at the parable in the other two synoptic gospels you'll get a better picture.

Read it how you will. I think it's pretty clear, and very contrary to your claim above. And I do NOT think people are DEVILS.

1 John 3:8
He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

I honestly do not know how you can dispute what I have said. It is clearly evident to all that you have bolded only "sin is of the devil," while ignoring the three preceding words--"He that committeth". John could not have stated any more clearly that it is the person who sins that is of the devil, not the sin itself.

 

[for_his_glory]

Yes, that's the modern day answer.
Lucifer evolved into satan.

I really do not think God gave Lucifer his name as no where in scripture does it say as I believe we are only given his characteristics and that man gave this spirit angel a name as he does have many of them. This would be a good study I might have to venture in as how did he get his name.

 

[Free]

IF it is not referring to Satan, then we must conclude that either the prince/king of Tyrus was in the Garden of Eden along with Adam and Eve or that the Garden of Eden is a useless reference term. And not only that, but that said king was not a king whatsoever, but an anointed CHERUB. An angelic being.

The prince/king of Tyrus IS a reference term to Satan.

Do you think that metaphors in the Bible are generally useless?

 

[GodsGrace]

If He didn't create Satan then He isn't omnipotent or omnisciencent. Someone or something else created, not God. Your argument doesn't hold validity. Did you ever think that He created evil to show us what good is? If we have no contrast we have nothing to judge evil with. Did you ever think that he created evil to show us how much He loved us? He loved us so much that His son died for us. "Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends." (John 15:13) How would we know this much love if there wasn't some reason to give it?

So what you're saying is that a parent would not only ALLOW, but CAUSE his child to be hit by a truck so that child could know how wonderful it is when he feels no pain?

Is God this small?

He has to make us suffer to show us His love?
I refuse that.
Is there some scripture you're referring to or is this your own idea?

 

[GodsGrace]

God created all things including Satan and his messengers. Col. 1:16, Rev. 4:11

Jesus was tempted by Satan. Matt. 4:1, Luke 4:2. Satan entered at least 2 disciples where we are told so by direct scriptural statements showing Satan having done this. The children of the devil (demons) were also in the pharisees that Jesus addressed in John 8:44. Jesus said that where the Word is sown, Satan enters the heart to commit sin. Mark 4:15. John the Apostle linked the devil to "sin" in 1 John 3:8, showing how extensive this problem is for everyone. Paul stated he had a messenger of Satan in his own flesh. 2 Cor. 12:7.

And yes, there are many direct references to Satan in the O.T. Most of them in Job. But also in 1 Chron. and Zech.

There are an abundance of 'allegorical' term references to Satan throughout the scriptures. Dragon, red Dragon, Pharaoh, behemoth, leviathan, thorn, thistle, serpent, crooked serpent, piercing serpent, belial, etc. etc. Really too extensive of a study to even get into in this format.

When believers understand the principle of Mark 4:15 they should read the scriptures accordingly. They'll learn to understand how God Speaks to people i.e. God is NOT addressing only people when He Speaks. God Speaks His Words, Satan resists His Words IN man. Therefore God speaks to TWO separate parties IN MAN when He Speaks. Acts 26:18, Romans 11:8, 2 Cor. 3:14, 2 Cor. 4:4, Eph. 2:2 and many many more.

But if believers take personal offense at this, they really heard nothing, and the scriptures will be partially blocked from their understandings. It is basically impossible for any believer to see this unless and until God in Christ leads them to see it in relation to their own sins and temptations.

If Jesus was tempted by Satan do we expect any different for ourselves? Uh, no. Temptation transpires "internally" and that places the tempter "in the flesh, internally" to do so.

If God created all things including satan and his messengers, how is He an all good God?
This is the same argument Incredible Transformation makes.
We're so good at thinking as men would think.

 

[JLB]

God created all things including Satan and his messengers. Col. 1:16, Rev. 4:11

Jesus was tempted by Satan. Matt. 4:1, Luke 4:2. Satan entered at least 2 disciples where we are told so by direct scriptural statements showing Satan having done this. The children of the devil (demons) were also in the pharisees that Jesus addressed in John 8:44. Jesus said that where the Word is sown, Satan enters the heart to commit sin. Mark 4:15. John the Apostle linked the devil to "sin" in 1 John 3:8, showing how extensive this problem is for everyone. Paul stated he had a messenger of Satan in his own flesh. 2 Cor. 12:7.

And yes, there are many direct references to Satan in the O.T. Most of them in Job. But also in 1 Chron. and Zech.

There are an abundance of 'allegorical' term references to Satan throughout the scriptures. Dragon, red Dragon, Pharaoh, behemoth, leviathan, thorn, thistle, serpent, crooked serpent, piercing serpent, belial, etc. etc. Really too extensive of a study to even get into in this format.

When believers understand the principle of Mark 4:15 they should read the scriptures accordingly. They'll learn to understand how God Speaks to people i.e. God is NOT addressing only people when He Speaks. God Speaks His Words, Satan resists His Words IN man. Therefore God speaks to TWO separate parties IN MAN when He Speaks. Acts 26:18, Romans 11:8, 2 Cor. 3:14, 2 Cor. 4:4, Eph. 2:2 and many many more.

But if believers take personal offense at this, they really heard nothing, and the scriptures will be partially blocked from their understandings. It is basically impossible for any believer to see this unless and until God in Christ leads them to see it in relation to their own sins and temptations.

If Jesus was tempted by Satan do we expect any different for ourselves? Uh, no. Temptation transpires "internally" and that places the tempter "in the flesh, internally" to do so.

No such scripture as Satan in our flesh.

Satan does tempt us, but is not in the flesh of Christians.

We know that whoever is born of God does not sin; but he who has been born of God keeps himself, and the wicked one does not touch him. 1 John 5:18

JLB

 

[smaller]

Do you think that metaphors in the Bible are generally useless?

Was the Garden of Eden a metaphor? How about a cherub? Metaphor?

Do you think the dragon is a simile for Satan? How about serpent? How about Pharaoh, king of Egypt, a similitude of Satan?

Does Satan even exist in your sights as a real adverse spirit entity that works against mankind?

Or is the O.T. just a history book to you with no relevance whatsoever about adverse spirit activity?

 

[for_his_glory]

Neither are dual references. One can only get Satan from those passages by reading Satan into those passages.

As for "Lucifer" mentioned in Isa., that seems to be a problem with the KJV. Not only do few, if any, other translations use "Lucifer," it is only used in that passage in the KJV. "Lucifer" is Latin, meaning "morning star," which is how most translations translate it. There is absolutely no warrant for thinking this is referring to Satan. None whatsoever.

In the Roman language Lucifer was the name given to the morning star Venus. The morning star appears in the sky just before dawn. In the Hebrew text the expression used to describe the Babylonian king before his death is Helal, son of Shahar, which can be translated as Day star, son of the Dawn. Jerome had mistranslated the Hebraic metaphor Day star, son of the Dawn, as Lucifer, and over the centuries a metamorphosis took place from the Latin in that of interpreting Lucifer into a fallen angel now named Satan. In the original Hebrew day star, son of the dawn is used, but not for that of Satan, but for the king of Babylon. Isaiah is using this metaphor for a bright light, though not the greatest light (Jesus) to illustrate the apparent power of the Babylonian king which then faded.

The name Satan comes from a Hebrew word sah-TAHN which means adversary as in signifying an enemy, and an accuser, father of lies.

 

[smaller]

If God created all things including satan and his messengers, how is He an all good God?
This is the same argument Incredible Transformation makes.
We're so good at thinking as men would think.

The basic lesson is that God created grass, but is not the grass that He created.

It's the same principle with the "power" of evil. God created all things including all powers visible and invisible. That doesn't equate God to ANY of those created things. To think that is the case, equating God to creation, is pantheism.

God can create and use evil, and not be evil. And God certainly did do and promises to do even more retributive evil throughout the scriptures. That still doesn't make God evil.

 

[Free]

In the Roman language Lucifer was the name given to the morning star Venus. The morning star appears in the sky just before dawn. In the Hebrew text the expression used to describe the Babylonian king before his death is Helal, son of Shahar, which can be translated as Day star, son of the Dawn. Jerome had mistranslated the Hebraic metaphor Day star, son of the Dawn, as Lucifer, and over the centuries a metamorphosis took place from the Latin in that of interpreting Lucifer into a fallen angel now named Satan. In the original Hebrew day star, son of the dawn is used, but not for that of Satan, but for the king of Babylon. Isaiah is using this metaphor for a bright light, though not the greatest light (Jesus) to illustrate the apparent power of the Babylonian king which then faded.

The name Satan comes from a Hebrew word sah-TAHN which means adversary as in signifying an enemy, and an accuser, father of lies.

Yes, I know all of that and that is precisely why your understanding of the passage in question in Isa. is in error. You have given the evidence yourself.

 

[Free]

Was the Garden of Eden a metaphor? How about a cherub? Metaphor?

Do you think the dragon is a simile for Satan? How about serpent? How about Pharaoh, king of Egypt, a similitude of Satan?

Does Satan even exist in your sights as a real adverse spirit entity that works against mankind?

Or is the O.T. just a history book to you with no relevance whatsoever about adverse spirit activity?

None of this has to do with my original point.

 

[smaller]

No such scripture as Satan in our flesh.

Satan does tempt us, but is not in the flesh of Christians.

We know that whoever is born of God does not sin; but he who has been born of God keeps himself, and the wicked one does not touch him. 1 John 5:18

JLB

If you understand the difference between yourself and our adversary you'd also understand why "you" are not the same as our adversary.

Paul identified the sin dwelling in his own flesh as "no longer I" twice in Romans 7:17-20. In vs. 21 he said evil was present with him. If sin is "no longer I" and sin is NOT forensic, then it forces sin to be an adverse spirit engagement. We can't see "sin" dwelling in the flesh by cutting the flesh. It is therefore in the adverse spirit arena. And this IS what the Bible presents.

We know sin "reacts" to the law. Romans 7:7-13. We know sin works the power of death. Romans 8:10. We know we wrestle the devil, yet the devil can't be "seen" with flesh eyes. Eph. 6:11-12. We know the devil is a predator. 2 Tim. 2:26. We know from James that believers have devilish wisdom. James 3:15.

The devil can not tell the truth. John 8:44

Scripture does tell the truth on these matters of sin in relation to the devil, yes, even the sin of believers.

 

[smaller]

Yes, I know all of that and that is precisely why your understanding of the passage in question in Isa. is in error. You have given the evidence yourself.

Self declared victory, isn't.

 

[smaller]

None of this has to do with my original point.

Your claim will stand that the Garden of Eden and Cherubs are not real and are instead, metaphors, as far as I can tell from your insistence.

I reject that notion.

 

[GodsGrace]

The basic lesson is that God created grass, but is not the grass that He created.

It's the same principle with the "power" of evil. God created all things including all powers visible and invisible. That doesn't equate God to ANY of those created things. To think that is the case, equating God to creation, is pantheism.

God can create and use evil, and not be evil. And God certainly did do and promises to do even more retributive evil throughout the scriptures. That still doesn't make God evil.

Interesting points.
Paragraph 1: good
Paragraph 2: good
Paragraph 3: God is outside of time and creation. Good. Will be considering...

 

[Free]

Your claim will stand that the Garden of Eden and Cherubs are not real and are instead, metaphors, as far as I can tell from your insistence.

I reject that notion.

In that passage, yes. There is no evidence of Satan in that passage. At least none has been given.

 

[Free]

Self declared victory, isn't.

You can hardly follow your's and my conversation, so maybe you shouldn't comment on someone else's.