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Who created Satan?

smaller said:
It's a process of elimination. There were limited characters in the Garden of Eden and only one of them was an angelic messenger.
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Show this in Genesis.

If you examine the contents of Mark 4:15 you might see that Satan is addressed "in man."
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Where does it show "that Satan is addressed 'in man'"? Do you see that you have taken one verse and developed a whole theology from it? Is that how to go about things?
 
Jim Parker said:
Isa 14:12
How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
Click to expand...
You should read back a couple of pages as this has been dealt with.
 
Jim Parker said:
No it wasn't.
The name "Lucifer" is still in all KJ Bibles.
You said, at post #103, "No such being named "Lucifer". Not in the Bible anyway."
You are mistaken. :shrug
Click to expand...
No, I am not mistaken. It's been dealt with--page 4, posts #62 and #71. A quick, simple study of the passage will show this to be the case.
 
Free said:
No, I am not mistaken. It's been dealt with--page 4, posts #62 and #71. A quick, simple study of the passage will show this to be the case.
Click to expand...
You said, at post #103, "No such being named "Lucifer". Not in the Bible anyway."
To that statement of yours alone have I responded, not posts #62 or 71.
 
Hospes said:
Assuming you believe Satan exists (Jesus did.) Here's some help:
  • ...and to bring to light for everyone what is the plan of the mystery hidden for ages in God who created all things, (Ephesians 3:9 ESV)
  • For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him. (Colossians 1:16 ESV)
  • “Worthy are you, our Lord and God, to receive glory and honor and power, for you created all things, and by your will they existed and were created.” (Revelation 4:11 ESV)
We may not necessarily feel comfortable with the answer, but it seems to me our comfort takes second and must be submitted to Biblical truth.
Click to expand...

I do believe satan is very real and I like what you said and the scriptures you chose because you are right on it. Whether we like it or not the truth is the truth and that is how truth is. As a matter of fact truth is much like a huge horse pill it can either choke you going down or it can cure you. Although it hurt me going down many times afterwards I was very grateful I took in that truth because it freed me from precepts of men I was taught in church and different people I wrongly put trust in. I was raised a southern baptist but 15 and half years ago I changed and became a part of The Way, which is totally no denominational or nationality belief system only church I attend for myself is where 2 or 3 are gather in the name of Jesus.

Anyway, I come to know much more about satan when I came face to face with a vision someone had in 97 that showed me something that I had no idea would ever come to know. Most importantly I come to know if Genesis is not correctly understood as satan being placed in the garden of eden and it was meant for Adam and Eve to fall then the rest of they claim is not right. Kind of like a group of people standing in a circle and a person walks over to another and whispers a statement in the ear then that person passes on what they heard to the next and the next, so on and so on till the end. At the end the last person speaks out loud what they were told to see if it matches with the original statement and most of the time through the passing people has either added to or taken away parts of the statement changing the whole meaning of the original statement. Likewise about the story that God told Moses about Him creating the heavens, earth, man, animals, etc. so now after 6000 some years many have passed on their own understanding by adding to or taking away things that could hurt alot of people. Most preachers say it wasn't meant for Adam and Eve to fall to satan when in fact that is not true because why would God place satan right in their living room if it wasn't meant, surely if it wasn't meant to happen wouldn't have God kept satan away from earth altogether.

And preacher and many others have claimed God and satan are at war with each other. Why would God be at war with something He created to do a job as satan is merely a tool, an instrument.
 
Jim Parker said:
You said, at post #103, "No such being named "Lucifer". Not in the Bible anyway."
To that statement of yours alone have I responded, not posts #62 or 71.
Click to expand...
That is not true. Look at my post #105: "You should read back a couple of pages as this has been dealt with."

You responded with:
"No it wasn't.
The name "Lucifer" is still in all KJ Bibles.
You said, at post #103, "No such being named "Lucifer". Not in the Bible anyway."
You are mistaken."

Do you see how you said "No it wasn't"? Not only does this mean that my post #103 is not the lone statement of mine to which you have responded, it means that you are in fact addressing posts #62 and #71, otherwise you couldn't truthfully state "No it wasn't".

It's been dealt with; "Lucifer" is not a being in the Bible. It's an error in the KJV.
 
Free said:
No, I am not mistaken. It's been dealt with--page 4, posts #62 and #71. A quick, simple study of the passage will show this to be the case.
Click to expand...

“How you are fallen from heaven,
O Lucifer, son of the morning!
How you are cut down to the ground,
You who weakened the nations!
Isaiah 14:12


You don't think this scripture is valid?

I haven't heard that one before.

I'm not going back some 40 post's to dig up your reason's for rejecting this scripture, but I will listen to your explanation, if your willing.



JLB
 
JLB said:
“How you are fallen from heaven,
O Lucifer, son of the morning!
How you are cut down to the ground,
You who weakened the nations!
Isaiah 14:12


You don't think this scripture is valid?

I haven't heard that one before.

I'm not going back some 40 post's to dig up your reason's for rejecting this scripture, but I will listen to your explanation, if your willing.



JLB
Click to expand...
Lol! The directions are just above--page 4, posts #62 and #71.
 
Free said:
Neither are dual references. One can only get Satan from those passages by reading Satan into those passages.

As for "Lucifer" mentioned in Isa., that seems to be a problem with the KJV. Not only do few, if any, other translations use "Lucifer," it is only used in that passage in the KJV. "Lucifer" is Latin, meaning "morning star," which is how most translations translate it. There is absolutely no warrant for thinking this is referring to Satan. None whatsoever.
Click to expand...

That's your big explanation proving that Lucifer doesn't exist??

Your "proof" is you basically denying Lucifer doesn't exist in the bible.

Here's what the Strong's says -

Lucifer - Strong's H1966 - heylel

Lucifer = "light-bearer"




    • shining one, morning star, Lucifer
      1. of the king of Babylon and Satan (fig.)
    • (TWOT) 'Helel' describing the king of Babylon
“How you are fallen from heaven,
O Lucifer, son of the morning!
How you are cut down to the ground,
You who weakened the nations!
13 For you have said in your heart:
‘I will ascend into heaven,
I will exalt my throne above the stars of God;
I will also sit on the mount of the congregation
On the farthest sides of the north;
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds,
I will be like the Most High.’
15 Yet you shall be brought down to Sheol,
To the lowest depths of the Pit.

16 “Those who see you will gaze at you,
And consider you, saying:
‘Is this the man who made the earth tremble,
Who shook kingdoms,
17 Who made the world as a wilderness
And destroyed its cities,
Who did not open the house of his prisoners?’
Isaiah 14:12-17


Lucifer was in Heaven.
Lucifer has a throne, and desired to exalt his throne.
Lucifer wanted to be like the Most High.
Lucifer will be brought down to hell.




    • Lucifer fell from heaven: “How you are fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning!
    • Satan fell from heaven: And He said to them, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven. Luke 10:18
  • Lucifer will be brought down to hell: Yet you shall be brought down to Sheol, to the lowest depths of the Pit.
  • Satan will be brought down to hell: “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: Matthew 25:41

JLB
 
Free said:
That is not true.
Click to expand...
So you DIDN'T say in your post #103 "No such being named "Lucifer". Not in the Bible anyway."???
That's very strange! It's what is printed in your post #103!
Is someone impersonating your?
Free said:
You responded with:
"No it wasn't.
The name "Lucifer" is still in all KJ Bibles.
You said, at post #103, "No such being named "Lucifer". Not in the Bible anyway."
You are mistaken."

Do you see how you said "No it wasn't"? Not only does this mean that my post #103 is not the lone statement of mine to which you have responded, it means that you are in fact addressing posts #62 and #71, otherwise you couldn't truthfully state "No it wasn't".
Click to expand...
The FACT that the name "Lucifer" APPEARS in the KJ Bible was NOT dealt with in those posts.
In your post #62 you stated "As for "Lucifer" mentioned in Isa.,..."
That is a clear statement BY YOU that the name Lucifer does appear in the KJ Bible.

The topic of post #71 is language. It does not address the fact that the name "Lucifer" appears in the KJ Bible.

I responded to your statement, at your post #103 that there is no such being named "Lucifer" in the Bible.
I didn't respond to anything else.
The origins of the name and to whom it might refer are entirely different topics.
 
JLB said:
That's your big explanation proving that Lucifer doesn't exist??
Your "proof" is you basically denying Lucifer doesn't exist in the bible.
Here's what the Strong's says -
Lucifer - Strong's H1966 - heylel
Lucifer = "light-bearer"

    • shining one, morning star, Lucifer
      1. of the king of Babylon and Satan (fig.)
    • (TWOT) 'Helel' describing the king of Babylon
“How you are fallen from heaven,
O Lucifer, son of the morning!
How you are cut down to the ground,
You who weakened the nations!
13 For you have said in your heart:
‘I will ascend into heaven,
I will exalt my throne above the stars of God;
I will also sit on the mount of the congregation
On the farthest sides of the north;
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds,
I will be like the Most High.’
15 Yet you shall be brought down to Sheol,
To the lowest depths of the Pit.

16 “Those who see you will gaze at you,
And consider you, saying:
‘Is this the man who made the earth tremble,
Who shook kingdoms,
17 Who made the world as a wilderness
And destroyed its cities,
Who did not open the house of his prisoners?’
Isaiah 14:12-17

Lucifer was in Heaven.
Lucifer has a throne, and desired to exalt his throne.
Lucifer wanted to be like the Most High.
Lucifer will be brought down to hell.

    • Lucifer fell from heaven: “How you are fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning!
    • Satan fell from heaven: And He said to them, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven. Luke 10:18
  • Lucifer will be brought down to hell: Yet you shall be brought down to Sheol, to the lowest depths of the Pit.
  • Satan will be brought down to hell: “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: Matthew 25:41
JLB
Click to expand...
Now, there you go being rational, logical, and precise again. :)

iakov the fool
 
Taniesh said:
I was raised a southern baptist but 15 and half years ago I changed and became a part of The Way, which is totally no denominational or nationality belief system only church I attend for myself is where 2 or 3 are gather in the name of Jesus.
Click to expand...
Are you writing of The Way International, founded by Victor Paul Wierwille?
 
Taniesh said:
I do believe satan is very real and I like what you said and the scriptures you chose because you are right on it. Whether we like it or not the truth is the truth and that is how truth is. As a matter of fact truth is much like a huge horse pill it can either choke you going down or it can cure you. Although it hurt me going down many times afterwards I was very grateful I took in that truth because it freed me from precepts of men I was taught in church and different people I wrongly put trust in. I was raised a southern baptist but 15 and half years ago I changed and became a part of The Way, which is totally no denominational or nationality belief system only church I attend for myself is where 2 or 3 are gather in the name of Jesus.

Anyway, I come to know much more about satan when I came face to face with a vision someone had in 97 that showed me something that I had no idea would ever come to know. Most importantly I come to know if Genesis is not correctly understood as satan being placed in the garden of eden and it was meant for Adam and Eve to fall then the rest of they claim is not right. Kind of like a group of people standing in a circle and a person walks over to another and whispers a statement in the ear then that person passes on what they heard to the next and the next, so on and so on till the end. At the end the last person speaks out loud what they were told to see if it matches with the original statement and most of the time through the passing people has either added to or taken away parts of the statement changing the whole meaning of the original statement. Likewise about the story that God told Moses about Him creating the heavens, earth, man, animals, etc. so now after 6000 some years many have passed on their own understanding by adding to or taking away things that could hurt alot of people. Most preachers say it wasn't meant for Adam and Eve to fall to satan when in fact that is not true because why would God place satan right in their living room if it wasn't meant, surely if it wasn't meant to happen wouldn't have God kept satan away from earth altogether.

And preacher and many others have claimed God and satan are at war with each other. Why would God be at war with something He created to do a job as satan is merely a tool, an instrument.
Click to expand...
So WHY was satan put here?
 
Jim Parker said:
No it wasn't.
The name "Lucifer" is still in all KJ Bibles.
You said, at post #103, "No such being named "Lucifer". Not in the Bible anyway."
You are mistaken. :shrug
Click to expand...
Parker,
The name Lucifer is not in all bibles.
It's missing in Isaiah 14:12 in the NASB and also in Young's Literal Translation.

Isaiah 14:12-15New American Standard Bible (NASB)
12 “How you have A)">fallen from heaven,
O a]" data-fn="#fen-NASB-17941a">[a]B)">star of the morning, son of the dawn!
You have been cut down to the earth,
You who have weakened the nations!
13 “But you said in your heart,
‘I will C)">ascend to heaven;
I will D)">raise my throne above the stars of God,
And I will sit on the mount of assembly
In the recesses of the north.
14 ‘I will ascend above the heights of the clouds;
E)">I will make myself like the Most High.’
15 “Nevertheless you F)">will be thrust down to Sheol,
To the recesses of the pit.

Isaiah 14:12-15Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
12 How hast thou fallen from the heavens, O shining one, son of the dawn! Thou hast been cut down to earth, O weakener of nations.
13 And thou saidst in thy heart: the heavens I go up, Above stars of God I raise my throne, And I sit in the mount of meeting in the sides of the north.
14 I go up above the heights of a thick cloud, I am like to the Most High.
15 Only -- unto Sheol thou art brought down, Unto the sides of the pit.

I'm not saying this proves satan does not exist.
Just that whether or not his name is named in this passage seems irrelevant to me.

W
 
I don't wish to put words in Free mouth (or fingers) but I believe that he is stating that he believes that Satan is a literary type known as an anthropomorphism.

It's where human characteristics are placed upon something in writing.

Kinda like "The internet said that it knows everything"
And that man's sinful nature is sometimes referred to in this fashion in the Bible.

It's not a new concept.... been around for a loooooooonnnnnnnnng time.

But the result is that Free takes responsibility for his sins and makes them worse than is customarily believed. That he can be Satan or an angel of God...the choice is his. And the results of those choices are more extreme than many give it credit to be.

And many people love the excuse "the devil made me do it "... because it makes them feel less guilty about their sinful nature.
 
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