Who created Satan?

[Taniesh]

So WHY was satan put here?

We would not have self will if satan wasn't here. Wondering I see that you are a christian, are you asking because you want to see what I know or do you not know yourself why satan is here? and I am not asking you to cause an issue just curious.

 

[smaller]

Show this in Genesis.

Show what?

Where does it show "that Satan is addressed 'in man'"? Do you see that you have taken one verse and developed a whole theology from it? Is that how to go about things?

That fact is probably the most pronounced fact in the N.T. Gospels. Are we seriously going to say we don't see Jesus engaging Satan and devils IN MAN? Let's recognize the problems in dialog when such simple facts are denied.

 

[Taniesh]

I don't wish to put words in Free mouth (or fingers) but I believe that he is stating that he believes that Satan is a literary type known as an anthropomorphism.
And many people love the excuse "the devil made me do it "... because it makes them feel less guilty about their sinful nature.

You are right about people using that as an excuse. No different than what Eve said to God. I hold no fault against Adam and Eve for what they did because it all had to start somewhere. But there are many preachers who say if Adam and Eve hadn't fell we would be alright today. Then what would have been the point. Could it be that God wants to know who will faithfully and sincerely love Him even through all the trials and tribulations we go through? Could it be this whole thing was never about us but always about God to get fulfilled? Hum

 

[IncredibleTransformation]

So what you're saying is that a parent would not only ALLOW, but CAUSE his child to be hit by a truck so that child could know how wonderful it is when he feels no pain?

Is God this small?

He has to make us suffer to show us His love?
I refuse that.
Is there some scripture you're referring to or is this your own idea?

I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the LORD, do all these things. (Isaiah 45:7) NIV

I create the light and make the darkness. I send good times and bad times. I, the LORD, am the one who does these things. (Isaiah 45:7) NLT

I form light and create darkness, I make well-being and create calamity, I am the LORD, who does all these things. (Isaiah 45:7) ESV

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. (Isaiah 45:7) KJV

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. (Isaiah 45:7) NKJV

I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil. I am Jehovah, that doeth all these things. Isaiah 45:7) ASV

Matthew Henry Commentary45:5-10 There is no God beside Jehovah. There is nothing done without him. He makes peace, put here for all good; and creates evil, not the evil of sin, but the evil of punishment. He is the Author of all that is true, holy, good, or happy; and evil, error, and misery, came into the world by his permission, through the wilful apostacy of his creatures, but are restrained and overruled to his righteous purpose. This doctrine is applied, for the comfort of those that earnestly longed, yet quietly waited, for the redemption of Israel. The redemption of sinners by the Son of God, and the pouring out the Spirit, to give success to the gospel, are chiefly here intended. We must not expect salvation without righteousness; together the Lord hath created them. Let not oppressors oppose God's designs for his people. Let not the poor oppressed murmur, as if God dealt unkindly with them. Men are but earthen pots; they are broken potsherds, and are very much made so by mutual contentions. To contend with Him is as senseless as for clay to find fault with the potter. Let us turn God's promises into prayers, beseeching him that salvation may abound among us, and let us rest assured that the Judge of all the earth will do right.

 

[Hospes]

You are right about people using that as an excuse. No different than what Eve said to God. I hold no fault against Adam and Eve for what they did because it all had to start somewhere. But there are many preachers who say if Adam and Eve hadn't fell we would be alright today. Then what would have been the point. Could it be that God wants to know who will faithfully and sincerely love Him even through all the trials and tribulations we go through? Could it be this whole thing was never about us but always about God to get fulfilled? Hum

Creation was accomplished through Jesus Christ with a view to the Cross. In other words, God knew Adam and Eve would fall; it was never Plan A. Plan A was always the redemption of people through the work of God's son on the Cross.

Also, I do not think God set up creation and the Fall so he could "know who will faithfully and sincerely love Him even through all the trials and tribulations". First, God knows everything. There is nothing of which he desires knowledge. Secondly, none of us "would faithfully and sincerely love Him" unless he placed that love in us. We are not at all inclined toward any good when left on our own.

 

[JLB]

So WHY was satan put here?

To give mankind a choice.

Serve God.
or
Serve Satan.

A person that chooses to serve God who they can not see, yet live their life being guided by a heart that knows and loves Him, and obeys Him... is priceless to Him.

God who created everything and can have anything... want's to be loved by a person's choice, not because He makes you love Him.

He is love.

He desires true love.

If you could see Him, it would be easy to "say", you love Him, because of the majesty and splendor of His greatness and beauty... being overwhelmed by what we see.

Likewise, just the opposite is true concerning Satan, if we could see just how hideous he is, and how evil and hatred has caused him to evolve into the being he is today, from the beautiful glorious angelic being he once was, we would naturally wouldn't want anything to do with him.

God has set this plan for those whom He foreknew, to choose Him, to Love him, and serve Him by faith, and to be conformed to the image of His Son, in this life, so... in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. Ephesians 2:7




JLB

 

[Free]

Sorry Free.
Can't go back and read all.
I agree with you that Lucifer is not named.
But are you saying that you believe satan is not an actual being?

Wondering

No. Satan is a real being, it's just that "his" name is not Lucifer.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

satan - adversary
devil - liar, destoyer, killer

Satan is most certainly personal. Those who think they are immune are in danger of being attacked even more strongly.

Only the knowledge that we are in danger could keep us as safe as possible. Because we are never really safe.

W

We are always safe if we are walking in the Holy Spirit of God.
It's when we drift into the world that we are not safe.

 

[Free]

Show what?

What I asked you to show. You stated: "There were limited characters in the Garden of Eden and only one of them was an angelic messenger." Show this in Genesis.

That fact is probably the most pronounced fact in the N.T. Gospels. Are we seriously going to say we don't see Jesus engaging Satan and devils IN MAN? Let's recognize the problems in dialog when such simple facts are denied.

What then do you mean by "in man"? You use Mark 4:15 and 1 John 3:8 more than any other verses to backup your position, yet neither says what you have made them say. Unregenerate man can be possessed by demons, that is without question, but those demons can be cast out, and not all unregenerate persons are possessed by demons.

 

[Kidron]

If God created all things including satan and his messengers, how is He an all good God?

.

-
God created Satan and Angels sinless, and with free will.
They chose to use their free will to sin, and became "fallen" thereby.....Just like Adam & Eve.
So, we cant Blame God for what choices Lucifer and Adam and fallen angels make.
To know Right but to choose WRONG creates evil.
So, the evil is in their choice to transgress, and not because that they were created evil.
They chose to transgress and then "evil is found IN THEM"

 

[Hospes]

-
God created Satan and Angels sinless, and with free will.
They chose to use their free will to sin, and became "fallen" thereby.....Just like Adam & Eve.
So, we cant Blame God for what choices Lucifer and Adam and fallen angels make.
To know Right but to choose WRONG creates evil.
So, the evil is in their choice to transgress, and not because that they were created evil.
They chose to transgress and then "evil is found IN THEM"

Do you think Michael has free will to choose to transgress? If so, would you agree after Satan is thrown into hell, wouldn't it be possible for Michael and/or Gabriel to lead a second heavenly rebellion? Maybe even probable since eternity gives quite a long time for it to happen?

Or maybe at some point God decides to get rid of free will?

 

[Kidron]

Do you think Michael has free will to choose to transgress? If so, would you agree after Satan is thrown into hell, wouldn't it be possible for Michael and/or Gabriel to lead a second heavenly rebellion? Maybe even probable since eternity gives quite a long time for it to happen?

Or maybe at some point God decides to get rid of free will?

-
The bible is the beginning and the end....the complete history of God dealing with "man".
So, had Michael or Gabriel decided to follow Lucifer, then we would know it because our Bible would show it.
So, no Heavenly Being transgressed after they witnessed what happened to those who tried it.
Had they, your bible would tell you..

 

[Taniesh]

Wow, no one and certainly not me is blaming God for anything because blame is saying putting off on another something went wrong and this is not the case. I am aware and was told there are a lot of misunderstanding about what God did and before anyone can say this or that one must ask the right questions to get the right answers otherwise there will be a lot of assumptions. The question could be why did God create Lucifer in the first place.

 

[Free]

That's your big explanation proving that Lucifer doesn't exist??

Your "proof" is you basically denying Lucifer doesn't exist in the bible.

Then you didn't read for_his_glory's post #71, which further explains my post #62. I just left out the detail.

Here's what the Strong's says -

Lucifer - Strong's H1966 - heylel

Lucifer = "light-bearer"

1. 
   
   
   • • shining one, morning star, Lucifer
       1. of the king of Babylon and Satan (fig.)
     • (TWOT) 'Helel' describing the king of Babylon

It's in Strong's so it must be true. The problem is, Strong's is based on the KJV and it is the KJV which is the source of the error and confusion.

It is worth noting here that the NASB, ESV, NRSV, HCSB, NIV, and YLT do not have "Lucifer" and, as I stated previously, Lucifer is found only once in the KJV. This is significant--one single verse, in very few versions, that uses the Latin "Lucifer". That in itself isn't wrong but it really begs the question as to why the KJV kept a Latin word in an English translation. At some point, someone equated Lucifer with Satan but there is absolutely zero warrant for doing so.

Isa 14:12 "How you are fallen from heaven, O Day Star, son of Dawn! How you are cut down to the ground, you who laid the nations low! (ESV)

Now, if you had read post #71, you would know that this is likely referring to Venus.

Lucifer was in Heaven.
Lucifer has a throne, and desired to exalt his throne.
Lucifer wanted to be like the Most High.
Lucifer will be brought down to hell.

• 
  
  
  • Lucifer fell from heaven: “How you are fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning!
  • Satan fell from heaven: And He said to them, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven. Luke 10:18

• Lucifer will be brought down to hell: Yet you shall be brought down to Sheol, to the lowest depths of the Pit.
• Satan will be brought down to hell: “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: Matthew 25:41

JLB

Or, as is the case, the passage in Isa. 14 is simply speaking of the pride of the king of Babylon and how he will be brought low, and you are reading Satan into that passage when he isn't there.

 

[Taniesh]

The KJV was given to our country years ago and since then there have been many translations because they determined it was hard to understand therefore these new translations makes it simpler to comprehend. Well that says one thing; if they didn't understand it in the first place then how close are they going to get changing the Bible. And apparently that is the culprit to why there is so much confusion today. Also not understanding the King James Version is saying they are not guided by The Holy Ghost because He is the one who helps us understand what we can't about the scriptures. So instead of saying the scriptures doesn't match what I think maybe one could say my thinking don't match the scriptures then ask The Holy Spirit for discernment and understanding. It really is not as hard as everybody is making it out to be. Slow down, breath, and ask the Bible questions. Besides The Holy Spirit wants anyone to ask the right questions.

 

[Free]

So you DIDN'T say in your post #103 "No such being named "Lucifer". Not in the Bible anyway."???
That's very strange! It's what is printed in your post #103!
Is someone impersonating your?

Clearly that is not what I was addressing. Please learn to read all that someone writes.

The FACT that the name "Lucifer" APPEARS in the KJ Bible was NOT dealt with in those posts.
In your post #62 you stated "As for "Lucifer" mentioned in Isa.,..."
That is a clear statement BY YOU that the name Lucifer does appear in the KJ Bible.

And? I have quite clearly never denied that it appears in the KJV. And, yes, that "Lucifer" appears in the KJV was dealt with in those posts. It takes some thinking, perhaps, but just a little. Here is some more as to why (see posts #92, 93, and 96):

http://christianforums.net/Fellowsh...g-with-the-niv-bible.26725/page-5#post-401577

Please don't respond to that thread as most of the users are no longer around. It's just for information.

The topic of post #71 is language. It does not address the fact that the name "Lucifer" appears in the KJ Bible.

I responded to your statement, at your post #103 that there is no such being named "Lucifer" in the Bible.
I didn't respond to anything else.
The origins of the name and to whom it might refer are entirely different topics.

No, they are one and the same topic, as I have shown JLB.

 

[dianegcook]

Satan, Lucifer, serpent, king of Tyre, etc. Are roles that Satan plays.
Lucifer does mean, son of the morning, dawn, morning star..all referring to Satan.
In Job 38:1-8
Is referring to God making the foundations of the earth..
Job 38:7
When the Morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy..
Note: also,
In Rev.22:16
Jesus is also the bright and morning star.

In Rev.12:4
Referring to the Dragon, another role of Satan, he drew the third part of the stars of heaven, angels..
They wanted to devour the Christ seed...
In Rev.12:9 it states
The Great Dragon was cast out, serpent, called the devil, and Satan...roles
And His angels were cast out with him...

Satan rebelled against God, he wanted to sit on the mercy seat, rather than guard the mercy seat.
He caused 1/3 of the angels, fallen, to follow him.

In Rev.9:1-11
1, saw a Star fall from heaven...
Opened the bottomless pit..
These fallen angels are to torment these men, which had not the seal of God...
There was a king over them, Apollyon, Satan, destroyer

My

 

[Free]

The KJV was given to our country years ago and since then there have been many translations because they determined it was hard to understand therefore these new translations makes it simpler to comprehend. Well that says one thing; if they didn't understand it in the first place then how close are they going to get changing the Bible. And apparently that is the culprit to why there is so much confusion today. Also not understanding the King James Version is saying they are not guided by The Holy Ghost because He is the one who helps us understand what we can't about the scriptures.

There are a few reasons for different Bible translations: https://bible.org/article/why-so-many-versions

 

[Taniesh]

The name Lucifer is certainly in the King James Version. Isaiah 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! [how] art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

There are a few reasons for different Bible translations: https://bible.org/article/why-so-many-versions

No matter what is assumed to be a reason to change the Bible it still should not be done. But since it has there is nothing we can do to change it only warn people of its deceiving nature. It causes too much confusion changing it and we were told not to do so. As a matter of fact King James had many scholars translate it from another language to English but if they messed up in the least little bit he had them killed. That was how serious King James wanted it right.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

The name Lucifer is certainly in the King James Version. Isaiah 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! [how] art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!



No matter what is assumed to be a reason to change the Bible it still should not be done. But since it has there is nothing we can do to change it only warn people of its deceiving nature. It causes too much confusion changing it and we were told not to do so. As a matter of fact King James had many scholars translate it from another language to English but if they messed up in the least little bit he had them killed. That was how serious King James wanted it right.

Yes, and King James said "easter".
And King James said "calvary".
And King James said "flight of the Phoenix".
And who knows what else King James said and killed over.

Doesn't matter.
If people want to call Lucifer "satan" or satan "Lucifer", so what?
The question that should be discussed is "does it matter"?