Who is Mystery Babylon ?

[Sam21]

I've provided the best evidence to date in this thread that Mystery Babylon is 1st century Jerusalem. I've done that here, here, and here.

No one - not you, Sam, Elijah, SDTKLMNOP - NO ONE has offered the kind of Biblical evidence for their views that I have and - what's more - I have offered them in the context of John's words written here:

{1} The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show to His bond-servants, the things which must soon take place; and He sent and communicated it by His angel to His bond-servant John, Revelation 1:1 (NASB)

{3} Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of the prophecy, and heed the things which are written in it; for the time is near. Revelation 1:3 (NASB)

{6} And he said to me, "These words are faithful and true"; and the Lord, the God of the spirits of the prophets, sent His angel to show to His bond-servants the things which must soon take place. Revelation 22:6 (NASB)

{10} And he *said to me, "Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near. Revelation 22:10 (NASB)

Now, when any of you can come up with a "belief" that fits within the context of the words John wrote above - words given to him by Christ Himself - please, let us know.

There is no other possible interpretation of these words than what is clearly intended in a plain-old strict literal interpretation of them! So, either Jesus was lying when He told John to write these words; either Jesus was lying when He said 3 TIMES IN REVELATION 22 ALONE: "I AM COMING QUICKLY!", or he was not. And if Christ was not lying, then maybe some of you should repent of "adding to the words" written in the book, and think about why you would insist on calling Christ a liar!

Quite frankly, I've had enough of some of the pure nonsense I see you guys posting. You don't read the references or posts I spend hours to provide, then insult people with whom you disagree, all because you can't fathom the idea Christ wasn't talking about YOU when He uttered the words of Matthew 24 or Revelation!

I know the scriptures you quote very well and I understand what you are saying about the time element, however the fact is,Jesus did not return and the events in Rev have not happened, so to believe that Jesus has returned(when He has not)and to believe that Rev has occured(when it has not)is a much greater injustice then believing that "shortly" by God's standard has to be much more than by our standards. Peter gave us a hint when he said that a day with the Lord is as a thousand years. Hey,I do not understand the time element either,however I understand that Jesus has not returned, Rev has not occured, and satan is not bound, and we are certainly not in Heaven.

 

[freeway]

I think I'll pretend your being funny!

I was, it was attemp to lighten the air....

 

[Stormcrow]

the fact is,Jesus did not return

Did not return in the way you think He should, or did not return in the way the apostles understood Him?

There's a huge difference. Get a concordance and look up "coming" and "clouds" in the Old Testament. That's where you'll find the answer.

and the events in Rev have not happened,

I'll take the risen and ascended Lord's words over yours, if that's OK with you.

 

[Stormcrow]

{30} "And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory. Matthew 24:30 (NASB)
​

{7} BEHOLD, HE IS COMING WITH THE CLOUDS, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over Him. So it is to be. Amen. Revelation 1:7 (NASB)
​

Same event, right?

Now here's EXACTLY what it means and where it came from:

"I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the Spirit of grace and of supplication, so that they will look on Me whom they have pierced; and they will mourn for Him, as one mourns for an only son, and they will weep bitterly over Him like the bitter weeping over a firstborn.
​

{11}"In that day there will be great mourning in Jerusalem, like the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the plain of Megiddo. {12}"The land will mourn, every family by itself; the family of the house of David by itself and their wives by themselves; the family of the house of Nathan by itself and their wives by themselves; {13} the family of the house of Levi by itself and their wives by themselves; the family of the Shimeites by itself and their wives by themselves; {14} all the families that remain, every family by itself and their wives by themselves. Zechariah 12:11-14 (NASB)
​

Every tribe and family of the land of Israel saw whom they pierced when Jesus Christ - the Lamb that was slain - returned in judgment upon Jerusalem for rejecting Him.

They were warned in Leviticus 26 what would happened if they acted with hostility toward God and broke His covenant.

They were warned by Christ what would happen to them in Matthew 21-23 and Luke 19-21 if they rejected Him.

They called His blood down on themselves and their children, and God Himself used the Romans to execute judgment on them for killing His son (see the parable of the landowner in Matthew 21).

In short, people need to start rethinking what these terms mean from the perspective of a first century Jew, NOT from that of a 21st century American "Fundy" Evangelical!

I don't know how much plainer it can be.

Start crackin' open the Old Testament, people. That's where the keys are to unlocking Revelation.

 

[reba]

I was, it was attemp to lighten the air....

:angel3 Great the up draft is helpful in flight!

 

[freeway]

Good luck!

'Moderate End Times' seems an oxymoron!
'Pleasant Apocalypse'?
'Temperate Armageddon'?
Something like those could happen and we might not even know it.:D

Sinthesis, if the bible was written as to we did not have to study it to understand it. Then what on earth would we talk about? the NFL..:D

 

[Sinthesis]

Sinthesis, if the bible was written as to we did not have to study it to understand it. Then what on earth would we talk about? the NFL..:D

Are you talking about the NFL or the NLT?

 

[warhorse]

Without trying to be rude.. Answer me this.. When did Jesus comes in the clouds and the whole world will see Him?
Matt 24:30 then will appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory;




Also if you clear this up? when was the third temple built? As of right now there is no temple on the temple mount.

1. The temple of Solomon. This temple was destroyed just before the Babylonian captivity, but after the return of Israel it was rebuilt again. It is commonly referred to as the first temple.<li value="2">The temple of Herod. This temple was built for the Jews by Herod in the last century before Christ. It is known as the second temple.
2. The temple of the tribulation period. This temple will be rebuilt in Jerusalem during the coming tribulation period (the 70th year-week of Daniel) after a covenant with the Antichrist. It is referred to as the third temple.

Also when where the two wittiness for Israel preach in the temple Square for 3.5 years and where killed and lay-ed in the street so as the whole world could view there body.. technology statement.
Rev 11:3 And I will grant my two witnesses power to prophesy for one thousand two hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth
Rev 11:10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth

So just a couple veruses.. when did these things above happen?
And as far as calling you Satan, No I did Not,, Just your preaching..
Gal 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed

freeway....:D

While i agree that the lord has not yet returned, dont forget about the traveling temple that God actually comanded to be built. It should be the first, Solomons the second, and Herods (as mentioned by Dan 9) the third. The Dome of the rock (as mentioned by Dan11) would be the temple of the anti-christ, and is currently in the courtyard of the original temple.

 

[warhorse]

{30} "And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory. Matthew 24:30 (NASB)
​

{7} BEHOLD, HE IS COMING WITH THE CLOUDS, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over Him. So it is to be. Amen. Revelation 1:7 (NASB)
​

Same event, right?

Now here's EXACTLY what it means and where it came from:

"I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the Spirit of grace and of supplication, so that they will look on Me whom they have pierced; and they will mourn for Him, as one mourns for an only son, and they will weep bitterly over Him like the bitter weeping over a firstborn.
​

{11}"In that day there will be great mourning in Jerusalem, like the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the plain of Megiddo. {12}"The land will mourn, every family by itself; the family of the house of David by itself and their wives by themselves; the family of the house of Nathan by itself and their wives by themselves; {13} the family of the house of Levi by itself and their wives by themselves; the family of the Shimeites by itself and their wives by themselves; {14} all the families that remain, every family by itself and their wives by themselves. Zechariah 12:11-14 (NASB)
​

Every tribe and family of the land of Israel saw whom they pierced when Jesus Christ - the Lamb that was slain - returned in judgment upon Jerusalem for rejecting Him.

They were warned in Leviticus 26 what would happened if they acted with hostility toward God and broke His covenant.

They were warned by Christ what would happen to them in Matthew 21-23 and Luke 19-21 if they rejected Him.

They called His blood down on themselves and their children, and God Himself used the Romans to execute judgment on them for killing His son (see the parable of the landowner in Matthew 21).

In short, people need to start rethinking what these terms mean from the perspective of a first century Jew, NOT from that of a 21st century American "Fundy" Evangelical!

I don't know how much plainer it can be.

Start crackin' open the Old Testament, people. That's where the keys are to unlocking Revelation.

The Old testiment is definatly the key to understanding Revelation. But there are two problems here, one that there was not weak, it was non existant support for your position, and second. I dont want to think like the Jews that put christ on the cross, there understanding of OT prophacy was totally wrong. And they crucified the son of God from there lack of understanding.

 

[savedbygrace57]

The Mystery of Babylon is the same as the Mystery of Iniquity, the Man of Sin, The AntiChrist..The influences of the Great Apostacy in the very last days before Christ return..

 

[Sam21]

Did not return in the way you think He should, or did not return in the way the apostles understood Him?

There's a huge difference. Get a concordance and look up "coming" and "clouds" in the Old Testament. That's where you'll find the answer.



I'll take the risen and ascended Lord's words over yours, if that's OK with you.

And when He had spoke these things,while they BEHELD,He was taken up and a cloud received him out of their sight,and behold two men(angles) which said unto them,this same Jesus which is taken up from you into heaven shall come in like manner as you see Him go,then shall ALL of the tribes of the earth mourn and they shall see the Son of Man coming in the clouds of heaven.
Jesus made a point to the believers that He would return in a physical way by actually going up into the sky in a physical way. I realize that the NT seems to be saying that Christ would return in a century or so,however the return described by Jesus Christ has not occured on planet earth. We may not understand the time element,however jumping off into,it has all occured, is worse then the time element.

 

[reba]

The Old testiment is definatly the key to understanding Revelation. But there are two problems here, one that there was not weak, it was non existant support for your position, and second. I dont want to think like the Jews that put christ on the cross, there understanding of OT prophacy was totally wrong. And they crucified the son of God from there lack of understanding.

I am lost as to what you are saying here. the line below i get.

The Old testiment is definatly the key to understanding Revelation.

Could ya maybe rephrase?

 

[n2thelight]

Stromcrow

Were all the stones thrown down in 70 AD?Is not the western wall of the temple still standing?

 

[Stormcrow]

Were all the stones thrown down in 70 AD?Is not the western wall of the temple still standing?

The western wall is the foundation of the old temple. So yes, all the stones were thrown down right to the foundation.

You don't see any vestige of the temple standing on it, do you?

Josephus explains:

Caesar gave orders that they should now demolish the entire city and temple, but should leave as many of the towers standing as were of the greatest eminency; that is, Phasaelus, and Hippicus, and Mariamne; and so much of the wall as enclosed the city on the west side. This wall was spared, in order to afford a camp for such as were to lie in garrison, as were the towers also spared, in order to demonstrate to posterity what kind of city it was, and how well fortified, which the Roman valor had subdued; but for all the rest of the wall, it was so thoroughly laid even with the ground by those that dug it up to the foundation, that there was left nothing to make those that came thither believe it had ever been inhabited. This was the end which Jerusalem came to by the madness of those that were for innovations; a city otherwise of great magnificence, and of mighty fame among all mankind.
​

Flavius Josephus, The Works of Flavius Josephus, trans. William Whiston (Hartford, CN: S. S. Scranton, 1905), WORDsearch CROSS e-book, 857.
​

 

[Stormcrow]

Jesus made a point to the believers that He would return in a physical way by actually going up into the sky in a physical way. I realize that the NT seems to be saying that Christ would return in a century or so,however the return described by Jesus Christ has not occured on planet earth.

OK, for the last time, you need to see to whom the angels, Jesus and John were speaking:

{30} "And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth [lit. the land] will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory. Matthew 24:30 (NASB)

See? Not you, not us: they: the tribes of the land of Israel, exactly as prophesied HERE:

{10} "I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the Spirit of grace and of supplication, so that they [NOT YOU: NOT US!] will look on Me whom they have pierced; and they will mourn for Him, as one mourns for an only son, and they will weep bitterly over Him like the bitter weeping over a firstborn. {11}"In that day there will be great mourning in Jerusalem, like the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the plain of Megiddo. Zechariah 12:10-11 (NASB)

{7} BEHOLD, HE IS COMING WITH THE CLOUDS, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth [lit. the land] will mourn over Him. So it is to be. Amen. Revelation 1:7 (NASB)

The sign of the Son of Man coming in the clouds was not meant for anyone else but those who were about to perish under God's wrath IN JERUSALEM and His followers who would see it from afar because THEY were told to flee the city! It's not for you; it's not for us!

{11} They also said, "Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into the sky? This Jesus, who has been taken up from you into heaven, will come in just the same way as you [not us!] have watched Him go into heaven." Acts 1:11 (NASB)

Tell me something: let's assume you are from New York, and an angel appeared and said, "Men of California..." why would you assume the message was for you???

The sign they were to see was meant for the Jews and Jerusalem. His sign in the clouds was one of fear and mourning for those under God's wrath. It was a sign of redemption for His followers because that sign meant the persecution they were facing from the Jews would cease!

The church, however, continues to be persecuted for His name throughout the world!

Remember: they = the tribes of Israel, not you, not us, not the modern church!

Hope this clears it up.

 

[Stormcrow]

The Mystery of Babylon is the same as the Mystery of Iniquity, the Man of Sin, The AntiChrist..The influences of the Great Apostacy in the very last days before Christ return..

None of which is supported by scripture. :o

 

[Stormcrow]

it was non existant support for your position,

Not my position. I quoted those passages EXACTLY as they appear from both the Old and New Testaments. If you don't understand what they mean, I'd suggest cracking open your own Bible and doing the same study I did.

References were provided for you to play along.

I dont want to think like the Jews that put christ on the cross, there understanding of OT prophacy was totally wrong. And they crucified the son of God from there lack of understanding.

They were told in Daniel 9 when Messiah would come. They knew He would be born in Bethlehem (He was), they knew the prophecies. They rejected and crucified Him anyway. Read the parable of the landowner in Matthew 21. Read the 7 woes of Matthew 23, then see in Matthew 24 how all that vengeance would be unleashed on that generation.

Not my words: His. Not my view: God's.

 

[Stormcrow]

I need to go to work but y'all need to understand this if nothing else: I am looking at the words exactly as they were written by the prophets and spoken by Christ as recorded by His disciples. I am not looking at these passages through the lens of any doctrine - either preterist of futurist.

Once you cast off the doctrinal blinders and begin to see the words as written, then you'll be able to understand them.

 

[savedbygrace57]

None of which is supported by scripture. :o

To you its not..

 

[Vic C.]

And when He had spoke these things,while they BEHELD,He was taken up and a cloud received him out of their sight,and behold two men(angles) which said unto them,this same Jesus which is taken up from you into heaven shall come in like manner as you see Him go,then shall ALL of the tribes of the earth mourn and they shall see the Son of Man coming in the clouds of heaven.
Jesus made a point to the believers that He would return in a physical way by actually going up into the sky in a physical way. I realize that the NT seems to be saying that Christ would return in a century or so,however the return described by Jesus Christ has not occured on planet earth. We may not understand the time element,however jumping off into,it has all occured, is worse then the time element.

I know this isn't on topic, but I do agree with Sam. :yes