Who is Mystery Babylon ?

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

OK, for the last time, you need to see to whom the angels, Jesus and John were speaking:

{30} "And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth [lit. the land] will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory. Matthew 24:30 (NASB)

See? Not you, not us: they: the tribes of the land of Israel, exactly as prophesied HERE:

{10} "I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the Spirit of grace and of supplication, so that they [NOT YOU: NOT US!] will look on Me whom they have pierced; and they will mourn for Him, as one mourns for an only son, and they will weep bitterly over Him like the bitter weeping over a firstborn. {11}"In that day there will be great mourning in Jerusalem, like the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the plain of Megiddo. Zechariah 12:10-11 (NASB)

{7} BEHOLD, HE IS COMING WITH THE CLOUDS, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth [lit. the land] will mourn over Him. So it is to be. Amen. Revelation 1:7 (NASB)

The sign of the Son of Man coming in the clouds was not meant for anyone else but those who were about to perish under God's wrath IN JERUSALEM and His followers who would see it from afar because THEY were told to flee the city! It's not for you; it's not for us!

{11} They also said, "Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into the sky? This Jesus, who has been taken up from you into heaven, will come in just the same way as you [not us!] have watched Him go into heaven." Acts 1:11 (NASB)

Tell me something: let's assume you are from New York, and an angel appeared and said, "Men of California..." why would you assume the message was for you???

The sign they were to see was meant for the Jews and Jerusalem. His sign in the clouds was one of fear and mourning for those under God's wrath. It was a sign of redemption for His followers because that sign meant the persecution they were facing from the Jews would cease!

The church, however, continues to be persecuted for His name throughout the world!

Remember: they = the tribes of Israel, not you, not us, not the modern church!

Hope this clears it up.

I agree with the vast majority of your post, but please tell me why it is that preterists like you seem to be do not believe that Jesus actually came in the flesh back then? The scriptures seem to imply that his return would not simply be symbolic or spiritual, but in fact a real, physical return where every eye in the land would be able to see him.
I'm with you on the timing of it, but I believe he literally came on the clouds and not figuratively the way the OT apocalyptic literature spoke of Jehovah coming on the clouds as there content of Acts was not written apocalyptically like Jeremiah, Zechariah, Isaiah, and Revelation.

 

[warfrog]

I agree with the vast majority of your post, but please tell me why it is that preterists like you seem to be do not believe that Jesus actually came in the flesh back then? The scriptures seem to imply that his return would not simply be symbolic or spiritual, but in fact a real, physical return where every eye in the land would be able to see him.
I'm with you on the timing of it, but I believe he literally came on the clouds and not figuratively the way the OT apocalyptic literature spoke of Jehovah coming on the clouds as there content of Acts was not written apocalyptically like Jeremiah, Zechariah, Isaiah, and Revelation.

If He came in the clouds back then we are all doomed and subject to the second death.
You would literally be denieing the first ressurection Paul warns the church not to deny because that is our hope in Christ, thats as He rose, also in Him we would be raised on the last day.
Paul specifically speaks that when He returns that is the blessed Day we recieve our incorruptible bodies and all saints dead and alive at that time recieve them through Him, further Revelations goes on about this as the time the saints live and reign with Christ for a thousand years and blessed and holy are those because they have no part in the second death, it is the first ressurection and again after this says they live and reign with Christ for a thousand years.

I do not agree with what stormcrow has said at all according to scripture.

But to say He came in the clouds back then is saying we are no longer in the hope of the resurrection at His return.

 

[Stormcrow]

To you its not..

This isn't about me.

 

[Stormcrow]

why it is that preterists like you

I'm not a preterist.

do not believe that Jesus actually came in the flesh back then?

I'm not arguing that point one way or another. Why? Because it's irrelevant! His coming back then wasn't prophesied for us 2,000 years later! His coming was for - among others - those who pierced Him!

In other words, if His prophesied coming back then wasn't for us now, what difference does it make to you? Why argue that point one way or another?

I'm simply trying to get people to see what the Word says without all the doctrinal baggage they've added to it!

Preterists and futurists each have a doctrinal agenda to push. I'm just trying to get people to understand the unadulterated Word of God in its simplest terms. What they do with that and where it leads them is their business, not mine.

but I believe he literally came on the clouds and not figuratively the way the OT apocalyptic literature spoke of Jehovah coming on the clouds

OK, so He came on the clouds. Who cares? We're past that. Got it?

Peace. Out.

 

[Stormcrow]

If He came in the clouds back then we are all doomed and subject to the second death.

Got references for that?

You would literally be denieing the first ressurection Paul warns the church not to deny because that is our hope in Christ, thats as He rose, also in Him we would be raised on the last day.

Don't see how taking Christ at His word denies anything He said, but OK: prove it.

I do not agree with what stormcrow has said at all according to scripture.

So what part of the scripture I quoted don't you agree with, since I used nothing but scripture to make my point?

 

[n2thelight]

Stormcrow

There are only two Advents witnessed to in Scripture {Zech 9:9 (First Advent); Zech 9:10 (Second Advent)}. This is also why Jesus, when reading from the book of Isaiah in the Synagogue in {Lk 4:17-21} had to stop reading at the middle of verse {Isa 61:2} when He was reading the Scripture that spoke of Him, because the words that came after "To preach the acceptable year of the Lord" would not be fulfilled until His Second Advent:

Luke 4:17-21
17 And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written,
18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,
19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.
20 And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him.
21 And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears. (KJV)
​

Below is the Scripture Christ was referring to, the words in blue bold are the words that He could not finish reading to them at that time and still have been able to say that: "This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears" because it will not be fulfilled until the Second Advent:

Isa 61:1-3
1 The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;
2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;
3 To appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the LORD, that he might be glorified. (KJV)
​

So my question is this,if Christ as you believe has returned already,why are we still in our flesh bodies,as per the below verse,we should have all been changed

1 Cor 15:51-52
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep [die prior to Second Advent], but we shall all be changed [ALL those alive at the Second Advent],
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump [the seventh, when Christ returns at his Second Advent]: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible [in our spiritual bodies, not rotting to dust like our flesh bodies do - they 'corrupt'], and we shall be changed. (KJV)

 

[freeway]

Wow, some are dead set on who mystery Babylon is or should be. I believe, and I cannot prove this but this is alot of what we do here. We interject our views. So I "believe" the mystery Babylon will be the emergent church, here is a list of what they believe, or what they want you to believe.

1. Scripture is no longer the ultimate authority as the basis for the Christian faith.
2. The centrality of the gospel of Jesus Christ is being replaced by humanistic methods promoting church growth and a social gospel.
3. More and more emphasis is being placed on building the kingdom of God now and less and less on the warnings of Scripture about the imminent return of Jesus Christ and a coming judgment in the future.
4. The teaching that Jesus Christ will rule and reign in a literal millennial period is considered unbiblical and heretical.
5. The teaching that the church has taken the place of Israel and Israel has no prophetic significance is often embraced.
6. The teaching that the book of Revelation does not refer to the future, but instead has been already fulfilled in the past or is allegorical.
7. An experiential mystical form of Christianity begins to be promoted as a method to reach the postmodern generation.
8. Ideas are promoted teaching that Christianity needs to be reinvented in order to provide meaning for this generation.
9. The pastor may implement an idea called "ancient-future" or "vintage Christianity" claiming that in order to take the church forward, we need to go back in church history and find out what experiences were effective to get people to embrace Christianity.
10. While the authority of the Word of God is undermined, images and sensual experiences are promoted as the key to experiencing and knowing God.
11. These experiences include icons, candles, incense, liturgy, labyrinths, prayer stations, contemplative prayer, experiencing the sacraments (for Protestants), particularly the sacrament of the Eucharist.
12. There seems to be a strong emphasis on ecumenism indicating that a bridge is being established that leads in the direction of unity with the Roman Catholic Church. (This will ultimately lead to the one world religion of Revelation.)
13. Some "evangelical" Protestant leaders are saying that the Reformation went too far. They are reexamining the claims of the "church fathers" saying that communion is more than a symbol and that Jesus actually becomes present in the wafer at communion.
14. Some suggest there are many ways to God.
15. Members of churches who question or resist the new changes that the pastor is implementing are reprimanded and usually asked to leave. If you are over age 50, your opinion will not even matter.

The Christ in Prophecy Journal: What Does the Emergent Church Movement Believe?

Here is a crazy Idea! I think the op is talking about Mystery Babylon and who we think it could be.. My first is to say it is the new feel good touchy church, that talks of God but in their hearts there is no room for God. The mega churches that preach you can be a better person. Well for my self, If relying on myself to get to heaven is my hope well then I'm not going to make it. Only and I mean ONLY way that I'm going to be a better person and make it to heaven is only by the blood and faith in Jesus.Now my second guess as to Mystery Babylon is "Islam" They seek to change time and laws, the seek to behead anyone who does not covert to Islam. They seem to be so against the Jews and Christians. I don't believe it will be Catholic Church as some seem to hope it is. I believe it will be something so far off of "Jesus" the way truth and life that from a true Christian viewing we will not have to guess. :D

 

[warfrog]

Got references for that?



Don't see how taking Christ at His word denies anything He said, but OK: prove it.



So what part of the scripture I quoted don't you agree with, since I used nothing but scripture to make my point?

1st Corinthians Pauls words through the Holy Spirit and the charged ordained to him by grace from God through His Son Christ Jesus our Lord.

"Now if Christ is preached that He has been raised from the dead, how do some among you say that there is no ressurection of the dead? But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then Christ is not risen. And if Christ is not risen, then our preaching is empty and your faith is also empty. Yes, and we are found false witnesses of God, because we have testified of God that He raised up Christ, whom He did not raise up--if in fact the dead do not rise.
For if the dead do not rise, then Christ is not risen. And if Christ is not risen, your faith is futile, you are still in your sins! Then also those who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men the most pitiable.
But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. For since by man cam death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ's at His coming. Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. The last enemy that will be destroyed is death. For "He has put all things under His feet" But when He says "all things are put under Him," it is evident that He who put all things under Him is excepted. Now when all things are subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.
Otherwise, what will they do who are baptized for the dead, if the dead do not rise at all? Why then are they baptized for the dead? And why do we stand in jeopardy every hour? I affirm, by the boasting in you which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily. If, in the manner of men, I have fought with beast's at Ephesus, what advantage is it to me? If the dead do not rise, "Let us eat and drink, for tommorow we die!". Do not be decieved: "Evil company corrupts good habits." Awake to righteousness, and do not sin; for some do not have the knowledge of God. I speak this to your shame.
But someone will say, "How are the dead raised up? And with what body do they come?" Foolish one, what you sow is not made alive unless it dies. And what you sow, you do not sow that body that shall be, but mere grain--perhaps wheat or some other grain. But God gives it a body as He pleases, and to each seed its own body. All flesh is not the same flesh, but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of animals, another of fish, and another of birds. There ae also celestial bodies and terrestrial bodies; but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. There is one glory of the sun, another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars, for one star from another star in glory. So also is the resurrection, it is raised in incorruption. It is sown in dishonour, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power. It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. And so it is written "The first man Adam became a living being." The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual. The first man was of the earth, made of dust; the second Man is the Lord from heaven. As was the man of dust, so also are those who are made of the dust; and as is the heavenly Man, so also are those who are heavenly. And as we have been borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly Man.
Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. Behold I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed--in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: "Death is swallowed up in victory."
"O Death, where is your sting? O Hades, where is your victory?"
The sting of death is sin, and the strength of sin is the law. But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. Therefore, my beloved brethren, be steadfast, immovable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, knowing that your labor is not in vain in the Lord.

1st Thessalonians also from the Holy Spirit in Paul ordained to this charge by God through the Lord.

"But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus. For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words.
But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord comes as a theif in the night. For when they say "Peace and safety!" then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. But you brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a theif. You are all sons of light and sons of day. We are not of the night nor of darkness. Therefore let us not sleep, as others fo, but let us watch and be sober. For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk are drunk at night. But let us who are of the day be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet the hope of salvation. For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with Him.
Therefore comfort each other and edify one another, just as you also are doing.

Now we shall be guided to the prophecy given to John by God in grace through the Lord Jesus Christ, showing the promise spoken of above.

Revelation

And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgement was commited to them.
Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for thier witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshipped the beast or his image, and had not recieved his mark on thier foreheads or on thier hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. But the rest of the dead did not live again untill the thousand years were finished. This is the first ressurection. Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priest of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.

There is the first resurrection and why we cannot say it has happened because if we are here now we have no part in the first ressurection, for we are still natural and must be raised into spiritual through Him at His second coming, but if you say "He has come", then we shall not be raised in incorruption and our faith and lives are in vain, we are the most pitiable among men, for we have nothing in Christ and the second death holds all power over us.
But be comforted in knowing we are not missing people and destined to have subjection to the second death, He has not come, the Day is still to arrive.
We shall live and reign with Him for a thousand years if we keep Him with us.


Now if you want His word to rebuke your amillenial charge it can also be done if He wills in me, but you have not asked me directly what is different than what you post and I would seek you see what He desires of you and not be taught from me in Him, but from Him in grace through His Apostles by His Spirit in them.

We are in the seals, when the world shakes and every place moves and every mountain is shook, the sun is blackened and the moon turns like blood, know that the time is near and also fear nothing in Him, we are not subject to death but life through Him and love not your life even to death.
Many will come to be purified in the Lord and many shall fall, but be vigilant in bearing the armor of God and live till your end, for in such is the beggining when we awake. Those who stand till the end shall also meet those who sleep with the Lord on His Day.


I posted all that before this, but a question actually came to thought from me to you: When was Satan cast out of heaven?

Grace to you, peace from God and the Christ Jesus our Lord.

 

[Elijah674]

Stormcrow

There are only two Advents witnessed to in Scripture {Zech 9:9 (First Advent); Zech 9:10 (Second Advent)}. This is also why Jesus, when reading from the book of Isaiah in the Synagogue in {Lk 4:17-21} had to stop reading at the middle of verse {Isa 61:2} when He was reading the Scripture that spoke of Him, because the words that came after "To preach the acceptable year of the Lord" would not be fulfilled until His Second Advent:

Luke 4:17-21
17 And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written,
18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,
19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.
20 And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him.
21 And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears. (KJV)
​

Below is the Scripture Christ was referring to, the words in blue bold are the words that He could not finish reading to them at that time and still have been able to say that: "This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears" because it will not be fulfilled until the Second Advent:

Isa 61:1-3
1 The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;
2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;
3 To appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the LORD, that he might be glorified. (KJV)
​

So my question is this,if Christ as you believe has returned already,why are we still in our flesh bodies,as per the below verse,we should have all been changed

1 Cor 15:51-52
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep [die prior to Second Advent], but we shall all be changed [ALL those alive at the Second Advent],
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump [the seventh, when Christ returns at his Second Advent]: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible [in our spiritual bodies, not rotting to dust like our flesh bodies do - they 'corrupt'], and we shall be changed. (KJV)

Elijah here: No doubt there is only one answer to your good thought provoking post. Yet, do you not think that there are sincere ones that God just does not give the total Truth to yet, for the purpose of using their ignorance & blindness to fulfill the Matt. 24:21 prophecy on??

Over my many years, 'i' have always found it nearly imposible to believe that there would be any taken in by this teaching of preterism of Matt. 24:23 on.

Yet, here it is right before ones eyes! And we have not even seen much of the.. 'great signs and wonders' yet, even! 'and deceive the very elect if it were possible'?? and done by these ones? it just seems nearly impossible for me accept that, except Christ has prophesied that this will all take place before He Comes Again THe Seond Time!

 

[Stormcrow]

There are only two Advents witnessed to in Scripture {Zech 9:9 (First Advent); Zech 9:10 (Second Advent)

Playing pretty "fast and loose" with the context of Zechariah 9, eh?

As to the rest...believe whatever you want. I'm tired of trying to answer every question and every insult that has nothing to do with the question of this topic, which I have already addressed here, here, and here.

Take it for what you paid for it.

 

[n2thelight]

Elijah


Elijah here: No doubt there is only one answer to your good thought provoking post. Yet, do you not think that there are sincere ones that God just does not give the total Truth to yet, for the purpose of using their ignorance & blindness to fulfill the Matt. 24:21 prophecy on??

Over my many years, 'i' have always found it nearly imposible to believe that there would be any taken in by this teaching of preterism of Matt. 24:23 on.

Yet, here it is right before ones eyes! And we have not even seen much of the.. 'great signs and wonders' yet, even! 'and deceive the very elect if it were possible'?? and done by these ones? it just seems nearly impossible for me accept that, except Christ has prophesied that this will all take place before He Comes Again THe Seond Time!

Hello Elijah,there is a reason why most cannot see,I know exactly what you are saying and I'll say this,even in ignorance,He protects......

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

Stormcrow

There are only two Advents witnessed to in Scripture {Zech 9:9 (First Advent); Zech 9:10 (Second Advent)}. This is also why Jesus, when reading from the book of Isaiah in the Synagogue in {Lk 4:17-21} had to stop reading at the middle of verse {Isa 61:2} when He was reading the Scripture that spoke of Him, because the words that came after "To preach the acceptable year of the Lord" would not be fulfilled until His Second Advent:

Luke 4:17-21
17 And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written,
18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,
19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.
20 And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him.
21 And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears. (KJV)
​

Below is the Scripture Christ was referring to, the words in blue bold are the words that He could not finish reading to them at that time and still have been able to say that: "This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears" because it will not be fulfilled until the Second Advent:

Isa 61:1-3
1 The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;
2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;
3 To appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the LORD, that he might be glorified. (KJV)
​

So my question is this,if Christ as you believe has returned already,why are we still in our flesh bodies,as per the below verse,we should have all been changed

1 Cor 15:51-52
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep [die prior to Second Advent], but we shall all be changed [ALL those alive at the Second Advent],
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump [the seventh, when Christ returns at his Second Advent]: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible [in our spiritual bodies, not rotting to dust like our flesh bodies do - they 'corrupt'], and we shall be changed. (KJV)

I too believe Jesus returned in the 1st century as the scriptures seem to indicate he would. With that said, I wish to address this question you possed:

If Christ as you believe has returned already, why are we still in our flesh bodies when we should have all been changed?

The best way to address this is to note who the "WE" Paul was referring to in 1 Corinthians was speaking to. In figuring who the "WE" is, we must be careful not to automatically input "ME" and the current "WE or US" into being party to the "WE" mentioned in scripture unless the texts tells us that doing so is appropriate. (That was one confusing sentence, I hope it makes sense). Anyhow........ All that said, it seems to me that the we mentioned by Paul only includes the saints who will be resurrected and those living AT THE TIME OF JESUS ARRIVAL. No one else is included in that "WE" number.

The fact is that we were not even born at the time of those events, so why do we expect that we'd be party to it? That line of reasoning is not logical. We must face the distinct possibility that Jesus already came and did what He said he'd do and what his students expected him to do in their generation. That would mean that those saints have been redeemed from the Earth and are living with Jesus as glorified immortals helping to administer the reign of Jesus' Kingdom (the Kingdom of Heaven).
Jesus specifically, along with his redeemed saints (who reign with him for whatever 1000 years is) according to 1 Corinthians 15:25 are said to be reigning "until [God] will have put all his enemies under his feet", with the last enemy, death, being invalidated. Then in the end, after he has brought all governments, authorities, and powers to nothing, he will hand over the Kingdom (THE REIGN) to his God and Father who will then BE ALL AND IN ALL.

 

[warfrog]

I too believe Jesus returned in the 1st century as the scriptures seem to indicate he would. With that said, I wish to address this question you possed:



The best way to address this is to note who the "WE" Paul was referring to in 1 Corinthians was speaking to. In figuring who the "WE" is, we must be careful not to automatically input "ME" and the current "WE or US" into being party to the "WE" mentioned in scripture unless the texts tells us that doing so is appropriate. (That was one confusing sentence, I hope it makes sense). Anyhow........ All that said, it seems to me that the we mentioned by Paul only includes the saints who will be resurrected and those living AT THE TIME OF JESUS ARRIVAL. No one else is included in that "WE" number.

The fact is that we were not even born at the time of those events, so why do we expect that we'd be party to it? That line of reasoning is not logical. We must face the distinct possibility that Jesus already came and did what He said he'd do and what his students expected him to do in their generation. That would mean that those saints have been redeemed from the Earth and are living with Jesus as glorified immortals helping to administer the reign of Jesus' Kingdom (the Kingdom of Heaven).
Jesus specifically, along with his redeemed saints (who reign with him for whatever 1000 years is) according to 1 Corinthians 15:25 are said to be reigning "until [God] will have put all his enemies under his feet", with the last enemy, death, being invalidated. Then in the end, after he has brought all governments, authorities, and powers to nothing, he will hand over the Kingdom (THE REIGN) to his God and Father who will then BE ALL AND IN ALL.

So if you actually believe He came and we are in the 1000 year reign but its completely spiritual, you do realise you literally have to at some point put all of those saints literally on earth right?

"Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison and will go out to decieve the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea. They went up on the breadth of the earth and surreounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them. The devil, who decieved them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimestone where the beast and false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever."

When is satan cast out of heaven will also show when satan is bound and sealed for a thousand years, which is at Christ's return, but let His word show you when Satan is cast out of heaven.

Revelation:

"Then the fourth angel sounded: And a third of the sun was struck, a third of the moon, and a third of the stars, so that a third of them were darkened. A third of the day did not shine, and likewise the night. And i looked, and I heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, "Woe, woe, woe to the inhabitants of the earth, because of the remaining blast of the trumpet of the three angels who are about to sound!"

End of the fifth trumpet:

"One woe is past. Behold, still two more woes ares coming after these things"

The two witnesses and the earthquake that destroys a tenth of the city, where 7 thousand are killed and the rest give glory to the God of the heaven:

"The second woe is past, Behold, the third woe is coming quickly"

The third woe:

"And war broke out in hyeaven: Micheal and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought, but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them in heaven any longer. So the great dragon, was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who decieves the whole world; he was cast to the earth. and his angels were cast out with him. Then i heard a loud voice saying in heaven "Now salvation, and strentgh, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down. And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of thier testimony, and they did not love thier lives to the death. Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and you who dwell in them! Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and the sea! For the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, because he knows that he has a short time."

All of His word prior to this happens before Satan is cast out of heaven, the 7 seals the 7 trumpets, the two witnesses.
Now when Satan is cast out he goes after those Isrealites in Jerusalem, but they will escape his wrath for a times, time and half a time, but satan then goes after the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ, now we are shown the beast, who recieves power, a throne and great authority from the dragon, notice what the beast is granted furthermore, "It was granted to him to mke war with the saints and overcome them"
what does satan do after he goes after the Isrealites in Jerusalem? he goes after the saints, the beast and satan act of the same mind.

Now lets jump to the first bowl and see who now it affects, prior the 7 seals and 7 trumpets affected all men, now look who the bowl directly affects.
"So the first went and poured out his bowl upon the earth, and a foul and loathsome sore came upon the men who had the mark of the beast and those who worshipped his image"

Now what is the taking of the daily sacrifices and the abomination of desolation?

Well first lets see how long it is:

"And from the time that the daily sacrifice is taken away, and the abomination of desolation is set up, there shall be one thousand two hundred and ninety days."

So what is the abomination of desolation?

A third temple? where they sacrifice and eventually the man of lawlessness comes in and stops sacrifice claiming he is God?

Seems like it could fit, except Jesus never spoke of the temple as the temple, but that we are temples in which He wants to recide through the Holy spirit. Our bodies are temples, each and every one of us.

So what is the taking of the sacrifice? the mark.
Satan through the beast is literally taking the sacrifice of each individual away from Christ, if you take the mark or worship the image of the beast you will not be given into Christ, we know this.

What is the abomination of desolation?
Well the beast claiming he is God and having every person on earth not written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world worship him as such is quite an abomination of desolation standing in the hearts of men where it ought not to be standing, because Christ, the Lord should be there, not the beast.

And from the institution of the mark, to the abomination of desolation will be 1290 days, and from 1290 days till the 1335 the wrath of God will be poured out and Christ will come.
This prophecy will be fullfilled in Daniel at the end of that time, "But you, go your way till the end; for you shall rest, and will arise to your inheritance at the end of the days."

Grace to you, peace from God and the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[sdktlk]

So if you actually believe He came and we are in the 1000 year reign but its completely spiritual, you do realise you literally have to at some point put all of those saints literally on earth right?

"Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison and will go out to decieve the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea. They went up on the breadth of the earth and surreounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them. The devil, who decieved them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimestone where the beast and false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever."

When is satan cast out of heaven will also show when satan is bound and sealed for a thousand years, which is at Christ's return, but let His word show you when Satan is cast out of heaven.

Revelation:

"Then the fourth angel sounded: And a third of the sun was struck, a third of the moon, and a third of the stars, so that a third of them were darkened. A third of the day did not shine, and likewise the night. And i looked, and I heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, "Woe, woe, woe to the inhabitants of the earth, because of the remaining blast of the trumpet of the three angels who are about to sound!"

End of the fifth trumpet:

"One woe is past. Behold, still two more woes ares coming after these things"

The two witnesses and the earthquake that destroys a tenth of the city, where 7 thousand are killed and the rest give glory to the God of the heaven:

"The second woe is past, Behold, the third woe is coming quickly"

The third woe:

"And war broke out in hyeaven: Micheal and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought, but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them in heaven any longer. So the great dragon, was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who decieves the whole world; he was cast to the earth. and his angels were cast out with him. Then i heard a loud voice saying in heaven "Now salvation, and strentgh, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down. And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of thier testimony, and they did not love thier lives to the death. Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and you who dwell in them! Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and the sea! For the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, because he knows that he has a short time."

All of His word prior to this happens before Satan is cast out of heaven, the 7 seals the 7 trumpets, the two witnesses.
Now when Satan is cast out he goes after those Isrealites in Jerusalem, but they will escape his wrath for a times, time and half a time, but satan then goes after the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ, now we are shown the beast, who recieves power, a throne and great authority from the dragon, notice what the beast is granted furthermore, "It was granted to him to mke war with the saints and overcome them"
what does satan do after he goes after the Isrealites in Jerusalem? he goes after the saints, the beast and satan act of the same mind.

Now lets jump to the first bowl and see who now it affects, prior the 7 seals and 7 trumpets affected all men, now look who the bowl directly affects.
"So the first went and poured out his bowl upon the earth, and a foul and loathsome sore came upon the men who had the mark of the beast and those who worshipped his image"

Now what is the taking of the daily sacrifices and the abomination of desolation?

Well first lets see how long it is:

"And from the time that the daily sacrifice is taken away, and the abomination of desolation is set up, there shall be one thousand two hundred and ninety days."

So what is the abomination of desolation?

A third temple? where they sacrifice and eventually the man of lawlessness comes in and stops sacrifice claiming he is God?

Seems like it could fit, except Jesus never spoke of the temple as the temple, but that we are temples in which He wants to recide through the Holy spirit. Our bodies are temples, each and every one of us.

So what is the taking of the sacrifice? the mark.
Satan through the beast is literally taking the sacrifice of each individual away from Christ, if you take the mark or worship the image of the beast you will not be given into Christ, we know this.

What is the abomination of desolation?
Well the beast claiming he is God and having every person on earth not written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world worship him as such is quite an abomination of desolation standing in the hearts of men where it ought not to be standing, because Christ, the Lord should be there, not the beast.

And from the institution of the mark, to the abomination of desolation will be 1290 days, and from 1290 days till the 1335 the wrath of God will be poured out and Christ will come.
This prophecy will be fullfilled in Daniel at the end of that time, "But you, go your way till the end; for you shall rest, and will arise to your inheritance at the end of the days."

Grace to you, peace from God and the Lord Jesus Christ.

The question was, "When was satan cast out of heaven?" He was was cast out at the time the Lord Jesus defeated him and took back all that Adam had given away. That time being at the resurrection.

Foot note: In Daniel everywhere it says daily sacrifice sacrifice is an added word and needs to be removed. Then we need to come to understand what is meant by "the daily."

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

So if you actually believe He came and we are in the 1000 year reign but its completely spiritual, you do realise you literally have to at some point put all of those saints literally on earth right?

"Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison and will go out to decieve the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea. They went up on the breadth of the earth and surreounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them. The devil, who decieved them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimestone where the beast and false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever."

When is satan cast out of heaven will also show when satan is bound and sealed for a thousand years, which is at Christ's return, but let His word show you when Satan is cast out of heaven.

Revelation:

"Then the fourth angel sounded: And a third of the sun was struck, a third of the moon, and a third of the stars, so that a third of them were darkened. A third of the day did not shine, and likewise the night. And i looked, and I heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, "Woe, woe, woe to the inhabitants of the earth, because of the remaining blast of the trumpet of the three angels who are about to sound!"

End of the fifth trumpet:

"One woe is past. Behold, still two more woes ares coming after these things"

The two witnesses and the earthquake that destroys a tenth of the city, where 7 thousand are killed and the rest give glory to the God of the heaven:

"The second woe is past, Behold, the third woe is coming quickly"

The third woe:

"And war broke out in hyeaven: Micheal and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought, but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them in heaven any longer. So the great dragon, was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who decieves the whole world; he was cast to the earth. and his angels were cast out with him. Then i heard a loud voice saying in heaven "Now salvation, and strentgh, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down. And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of thier testimony, and they did not love thier lives to the death. Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and you who dwell in them! Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and the sea! For the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, because he knows that he has a short time."

All of His word prior to this happens before Satan is cast out of heaven, the 7 seals the 7 trumpets, the two witnesses.
Now when Satan is cast out he goes after those Isrealites in Jerusalem, but they will escape his wrath for a times, time and half a time, but satan then goes after the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ, now we are shown the beast, who recieves power, a throne and great authority from the dragon, notice what the beast is granted furthermore, "It was granted to him to mke war with the saints and overcome them"
what does satan do after he goes after the Isrealites in Jerusalem? he goes after the saints, the beast and satan act of the same mind.

Now lets jump to the first bowl and see who now it affects, prior the 7 seals and 7 trumpets affected all men, now look who the bowl directly affects.
"So the first went and poured out his bowl upon the earth, and a foul and loathsome sore came upon the men who had the mark of the beast and those who worshipped his image"

Now what is the taking of the daily sacrifices and the abomination of desolation?

Well first lets see how long it is:

"And from the time that the daily sacrifice is taken away, and the abomination of desolation is set up, there shall be one thousand two hundred and ninety days."

So what is the abomination of desolation?

A third temple? where they sacrifice and eventually the man of lawlessness comes in and stops sacrifice claiming he is God?

Seems like it could fit, except Jesus never spoke of the temple as the temple, but that we are temples in which He wants to recide through the Holy spirit. Our bodies are temples, each and every one of us.

So what is the taking of the sacrifice? the mark.
Satan through the beast is literally taking the sacrifice of each individual away from Christ, if you take the mark or worship the image of the beast you will not be given into Christ, we know this.

What is the abomination of desolation?
Well the beast claiming he is God and having every person on earth not written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world worship him as such is quite an abomination of desolation standing in the hearts of men where it ought not to be standing, because Christ, the Lord should be there, not the beast.

And from the institution of the mark, to the abomination of desolation will be 1290 days, and from 1290 days till the 1335 the wrath of God will be poured out and Christ will come.
This prophecy will be fullfilled in Daniel at the end of that time, "But you, go your way till the end; for you shall rest, and will arise to your inheritance at the end of the days."

Grace to you, peace from God and the Lord Jesus Christ.

There is a lot mixed in your comments Warfrog. Some of which was applicable to what transpired in history and other things which the world still awaits. I believe that a proper understanding of Daniel's prophesies will reveal that they all found fulfillment in Jesus and the judgment of the Jews in the 1st century.

I do not believe one iota that WE are in the 1000 reign. That reign is for the martyred saints and prophets of old spoken of by Jesus in Matthew 23. We have NO PART in that reign. We, are still inhabitants of a world of sin and death while the saints are with Jesus in his current kingdom which AT THIS TIME does not yet include our world.

Notice that in Rev 12:10, the Kingdom reign that begins, begins in Heaven. This was not a prophetic passage in the sense of revealing the future prophetic in that it revealed Jesus taking the throne at the right hand of God. This, or the event that this imagery represents very likely took place shortly after Jesus' resurrection and ascension. I say this in light of Peter's words in Acts 2 and Jesus' own words in Acts 1.

We can agree that at some point the reign of Heaven (the Kingdom of Heaven) will be inclusive of this world. Peter says there will be a new Earth and Sky and Jesus said all things would be made new by him. We also know that death and the grave will be destroyed (be thrown in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone) according to Revelation 21.
There is a group described in Revelation that I think may in fact include us and that group is the great multitude that had there robes washed after coming through a period of tribulation described in chapter 7. This group is not given authority or reign like the 144,000 and those said to be party to the 1st resurrection, but their tears are wiped away and they are given access to "waters of life."

 

[warfrog]

The question was, "When was satan cast out of heaven?" He was was cast out at the time the Lord Jesus defeated him and took back all that Adam had given away. That time being at the resurrection.

Foot note: In Daniel everywhere it says daily sacrifice sacrifice is an added word and needs to be removed. Then we need to come to understand what is meant by "the daily."

No he wasnt, he is accusing us in heaven right now.
It's clear by scripture he is cast out on the third woe, it was just posted.
He was defeated at the resurrection and is defeated now and forever, but it doesnt mean he has been cast out and sealed and further more cast into the lake of fire, it means he has no power over Christ's.
When the third woe begins he is cast out of heaven.

So now scripture needs to be changed, i dont think so.

"the daily" is one who believes Jesus is the Christ.

lets move into another part of what God says through Daniel about the sacrifice and the abomination of desolation.

"And forces shall be mustered by him, and they shall defile the sanctuary fortress; then they shall take away the daily sacrifices, and place there the abmonition of desolation"

Defiling the sanctuary fortress is taking the mark on the hand or the forehead, they are literally defiling the sactuary fortress, the body.
They shall take away the daily sacrifice, they will take themselves away from Christ, noone with the mark may enter the kingdom of God.
And place there the abomination of desolation, he will claim himself as God and they will worship him in thier hearts, they will literally place him in thier hearts as God.

Grace to you, peace from God and the Lamb.

 

[warfrog]

There is a lot mixed in your comments Warfrog. Some of which was applicable to what transpired in history and other things which the world still awaits. I believe that a proper understanding of Daniel's prophesies will reveal that they all found fulfillment in Jesus and the judgment of the Jews in the 1st century.

I do not believe one iota that WE are in the 1000 reign. That reign is for the martyred saints and prophets of old spoken of by Jesus in Matthew 23. We have NO PART in that reign. We, are still inhabitants of a world of sin and death while the saints are with Jesus in his current kingdom which AT THIS TIME does not yet include our world.

Notice that in Rev 12:10, the Kingdom reign that begins, begins in Heaven. This was not a prophetic passage in the sense of revealing the future prophetic in that it revealed Jesus taking the throne at the right hand of God. This, or the event that this imagery represents very likely took place shortly after Jesus' resurrection and ascension. I say this in light of Peter's words in Acts 2 and Jesus' own words in Acts 1.

We can agree that at some point the reign of Heaven (the Kingdom of Heaven) will be inclusive of this world. Peter says there will be a new Earth and Sky and Jesus said all things would be made new by him. We also know that death and the grave will be destroyed (be thrown in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone) according to Revelation 21.
There is a group described in Revelation that I think may in fact include us and that group is the great multitude that had there robes washed after coming through a period of tribulation described in chapter 7. This group is not given authority or reign like the 144,000 and those said to be party to the 1st resurrection, but their tears are wiped away and they are given access to "waters of life."

I do believe prophecy was fullfilled from Jesus ascension to now, I dont believe anything past the 4th seal has happened yet, some of the dragon has occured, like how he tried to devour Christ at his birth, Christ did the will of the Father and rose to heaven and continues to build His kingdom now.


No.
Daniels vision's are not fulfilled, some are but any dealing with the little horn or the daily sacrifice is not, the completion of those prophecies occurs when Daniel awakes into everlasting life through the Lord, going from corruption into incorruption at His coming.

"But you, go your way till the end; for you shall rest, and will arise to your inheritance at the end of the days"

Paul tells us exactly when that occurs:
"Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ's at His coming"

The awakening to the inheritance begins here:

"And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first ressurection. Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years"

Daniel is a part of this as is everyone who sleeps in the Lord and is alive in the Lord at His coming, this is the beggining of the inheritance, none raised at Christ's coming shall ever be seperated from Him and after satan is released for a little while and captured and cast into the fire where the beast and false prophet are, and the second ressurection occurs, the "great white throne judgement" and all are judged accordingly and Death and Hades are cast into the lake of fire
the final inheritance begins:

"Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea. Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, "Behold the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them ans be thier God. And God will wipe away every tear from thier eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away."


I know we are not in the thousand years and I shall be through Him.
If i go to sleep in Him now or am here when He comes, i shall awake to my inheritance as Daniel shall also and all thats are Christ's. ( I must first participate in judgement, "And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgement was commited to them.")

He is the kingdom, you have no part in the kingdom if He does not reign in you. You have no part in Him if He has no part in you.
You are right to say the kingdom is in heaven.
"Thy kingdom come, they will be done, on earth as it is in heaven"
You are wrong if you say the kingdom does not come to earth, literally as it is in heaven.
"And they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years"
"they shall be preists of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years."

Look who that group is, i will start with the first group who recieve thier white robes:

the fifth seal:
"When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. And they cried with a loud voice, saying "How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?" Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of thier fellow servants and thier brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed."

Then we see the beggining of the wrath of the Lamb.
Those souls are all who have died in Christ, to the hope of the inheritance until the sixth seal.

Now we are shown the completion of all of His after we are shown the 144,000 sealed Isrealites who are pure before God, that have no deciet from thier mouths and are without fault before the throne of God.

Here is the completion of all gathered into Christ:

"After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which noone could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in thier hands, and crying out with a loud voice, saying, "Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!" All the angels stood around the throne and the elders and the four living creatures, and worshiped God, saying
"Amen! Blessing and glory and wisdom, Thanksgiving and honour and power and might, Be to our God forever and ever. Amen."
Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, "Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they comes from?"
And I said to him, "Sir, you know."
So he said to me, "These are the ones who come out of great tribulation, and washed thier robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Therefore they are before the throne of God, and serve Him day and night in His temple. And He who sits on the throne will dwell among them. They shall neither hunger anymore nor thirst anymore; the sun shall not strike them, nor any heat; for the Lamb who is in the midst of the throne will shepard them and lead them to living fountains of waters. And God will wipe away every tear from thier eyes."

Everyone sleeping or awake at Christ's coming is pictured right there, gathered together, and the fifth seal is all those sleeping who are awaiting this day of gathering, which occurs after the wrath of the Lamb, the wrath of God.
"How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?"

Sixth seal:
"I looked when He opened the sixth seal, and behold, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became like blood. And the stars of heaven fell to the earth. as a fig tree drops it's late figs when it is shaken by a mighty wind. Then the sky receded as a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved out of its place. And the kings of the earth, the great men, the rich men, the commanders, the mighty men, every slave and every free man, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains, and said to the mountains and rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?"

All who are His will live and reign with Him a thousand years, the 144,000, the ones who cry "How long, O Lord" and those who come out of the great tribulation and do not take the mark or worship the image of the beast or the beast and are witnesses of Jesus and the word of God.
All of those will be with Christ, and when Death is cast into the fire being the last enemy destroyed following the thousand years and a short time, we shall inherit a new heaven and a new earth, the New Jerusalem and shall live with God and Christ forever and ever. Amen.

Grace to you, peace from God and the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[Lehigh3]

Nope. Mystery Babylon is Jerusalem in the 1st century. Truthovertradition is correct- & Stormcrow is so very correct!

Hosea 10:8 The high places of wickedness will be destroyed--it is the sin of Israel. Thorns and thistles will grow up and cover their altars. Then they will say to the mountains, "Cover us!" and to the hills, "Fall on us!"

Isaiah 2:19 Men will flee to caves in the rocks and to holes in the ground from dread of the LORD and the splendor of his majesty, when he rises to shake the earth.


Luke 23:28-30
Jesus turned and said to them, "Daughters of Jerusalem, do not weep for me; weep for yourselves and for your children.For the time will come when you will say, 'Blessed are the barren women, the wombs that never bore and the breasts that never nursed!' Then "'they will say to the mountains, "Fall on us!" and to the hills, "Cover us!"'

Rev.6:12-17
12I looked when He broke the sixth seal, and there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth made of hair, and the whole moon became like blood; 13and the stars of the sky fell to the earth, as a fig tree casts its unripe figs when shaken by a great wind. 14The sky was split apart like a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. 15Then the kings of the earth and the great men and the commanders and the rich and the strong and every slave and free man hid themselves in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains; 16and they said to the mountains and to the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the presence of Him who sits on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb; 17for the great day of their wrath has come, and who is able to stand?â€

Hint: Rev. is a book of 7's some of the chapters are retrospective - but always ending in the time, times, & a half time of the great tribulation of the 1st century (God's wrath & the Jewish War).
It is NOT chronological.

Christ bound the strongman (satan) at the cross. The nations could receive the gospel. Then he was released for a little while.

 

[sdktlk]

No he wasnt, he is accusing us in heaven right now.
It's clear by scripture he is cast out on the third woe, it was just posted.
He was defeated at the resurrection and is defeated now and forever, but it doesnt mean he has been cast out and sealed and further more cast into the lake of fire, it means he has no power over Christ's.
When the third woe begins he is cast out of heaven.

So now scripture needs to be changed, i dont think so.

"the daily" is one who believes Jesus is the Christ.

lets move into another part of what God says through Daniel about the sacrifice and the abomination of desolation.

"And forces shall be mustered by him, and they shall defile the sanctuary fortress; then they shall take away the daily sacrifices, and place there the abmonition of desolation"

Defiling the sanctuary fortress is taking the mark on the hand or the forehead, they are literally defiling the sactuary fortress, the body.
They shall take away the daily sacrifice, they will take themselves away from Christ, noone with the mark may enter the kingdom of God.
And place there the abomination of desolation, he will claim himself as God and they will worship him in thier hearts, they will literally place him in thier hearts as God.

Grace to you, peace from God and the Lamb.

If we do a word study concerning Revelation 9:1, we discover some things.

Here is the verse as recorded in the KJV: [FONT=Georgia, serif]"And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him [/FONT] [FONT=Georgia, serif]was given the key of the bottomless pit[/FONT]

[FONT=Georgia, serif]Again, literal: “...and I saw a star out of heaven [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif]having fallen [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif]to[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif] the earth...†The [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif]stars [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif]are [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif]angels[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif], they are[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif] messengers. [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif]And, they can be [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif]angelic[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif], [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif]human[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif], or [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif]demonic[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif]. When this fifth angel sounded John [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif]saw[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif] a [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif]messenger[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif] which had been in the heavenlies, but had[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif] already fallen[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif] to the earth. This [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif]fallen star[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif], this[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif] messenger[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif], [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif]is[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif] Satan.

Also, if we follow the Book of Daniel through all the prophecies recorded therein we discover that the "daily," as revealed by the Lord, is a continual (daily) desolating power.
[/FONT]

 

[warfrog]

Nope. Mystery Babylon is Jerusalem in the 1st century. Truthovertradition is correct- & Stormcrow is so very correct!

Hosea 10:8 The high places of wickedness will be destroyed--it is the sin of Israel. Thorns and thistles will grow up and cover their altars. Then they will say to the mountains, "Cover us!" and to the hills, "Fall on us!"

Isaiah 2:19 Men will flee to caves in the rocks and to holes in the ground from dread of the LORD and the splendor of his majesty, when he rises to shake the earth.


Luke 23:28-30
Jesus turned and said to them, "Daughters of Jerusalem, do not weep for me; weep for yourselves and for your children.For the time will come when you will say, 'Blessed are the barren women, the wombs that never bore and the breasts that never nursed!' Then "'they will say to the mountains, "Fall on us!" and to the hills, "Cover us!"'

Rev.6:12-17
12I looked when He broke the sixth seal, and there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth made of hair, and the whole moon became like blood; 13and the stars of the sky fell to the earth, as a fig tree casts its unripe figs when shaken by a great wind. 14The sky was split apart like a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. 15Then the kings of the earth and the great men and the commanders and the rich and the strong and every slave and free man hid themselves in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains; 16and they said to the mountains and to the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the presence of Him who sits on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb; 17for the great day of their wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”

Hint: Rev. is a book of 7's some of the chapters are retrospective - but always ending in the time, times, & a half time of the great tribulation of the 1st century (God's wrath & the Jewish War).
It is NOT chronological.

Christ bound the strongman (satan) at the cross. The nations could receive the gospel. Then he was released for a little while.

No.

Also notice your scriptures you posted are identical to the 6th seal? What does God's wrath incure on? All men who are not His, and the earth they live on. It deals with everyman on earth, not just Jerusalem, not just the romans, in fact the romans didnt even rule the whole world and did not worship one man, nor was there a false prophet decieving the whole world causeing all to worship the beast.
There was an army commander, and soldiers and they did thier job, the Jews lost and the majority of them commited suicide who fled.

Grace to you, peace from God and the Lord Jesus Christ.