You asked: 'Also, I think the title of this thread is a little off.
"Who Made God?"
If anyone made God, THEY would be God'.
I'm not the only one asking this question. I've heard it from agnostics and atheists in Australia. Ravi Zacharias, Norman Geisler and some other apologists have heard it to the point where they have published on it:
Now to your question:
But there is still your proposition that he always existed, to which the atheist says, So what! That proves nothing to demonstrate who created God. That's circular reasoning. You presume your God is eternal and you conclude he is eternal. That's begging the question.
As for eternal, you believe it; I believe it, but the atheist doesn't. How can we get him/her to the point of discussing eternal. Often the discussion goes to the universe being eternal, but science is confirming that the universe had a beginning. Whether one calls it the Big Bang or
bara (God created out of nothing, Gen 1:1), science joins Christianity in confirming there was a beginning to the universe. How it happened is where many disagree.
Where does Scripture affirm that the universe is eternal, has no end? I understood that we look forward to new heavens and a new earth where righteousness dwells (2 Pet 3:13).
So are you concluding with a 'faith' position that you accept the God revealed in the Bible as the true God. I can see the atheist say that's a 'leap of faith' position that he/she is not prepared to take because he/she is a rational human being and that doesn't make sense in a reasonable conversation.
Oz
Hi Oz,
Yes, we've all heard this question!
If only we could explain how God got started, MAYBE the atheist would believe in Him. Know what I think? He wouldn't. As Ravi Zacharias has said, you could bring an atheist to heaven for 10 days and let him look around and ask questions, and when he came back to earth he would still doubt he had ever been there.
(I like RZ)
Also, I didn't explain myself properly regarding the universe. When saying that it's eternal what I meant is that it has no end...it seems as though it's eternal in that it just goes on and on. We cannot see where it ends.
The big bang would explain Let There Be Light. I've read that if the big bang is true, then the force required to cause the explosion would be so great as to immediately cause an implosion. So the very fact that the explosion then continued to expand is a miracle in itself. Scripture does not speak to this, I'm referring to science here.
Scripture affirms only that there was a beginning. But what beginning? The beginning of everything? The beginning of our earth so that we could occupy it?
This is not clear to me and really is of no importance to me.
I believe my end point is that if someone does not believe God even exists, how could we convince that person He existed forever!! I think there is no way.
You know me, I'm practical and not very intellectual - I believe that a person must experience God in order to believe in Him. In John 3 Jesus tells Nicodemus that the the wind blows where it will. This makes me realize that God is like the wind - we cannot see Him, but we see His effects. We see Him affecting humanity. Of course, the answer will be that it's all psychological and we need something to lean on.
Seems to me you cannot win.
Seems to me that Dawkins has won the battle. Whether or not he wins the war remains to be seen. RZ speaks of a well known atheist that now is not sure of himself anymore although he is not Christian. However this atheist did say that if God exists, He would have to be the Christian God. This would be Anthony Flew.
In the meantime, science is lining up with the bible!
Big Bang
Bara
Same thing... Except Jews and Christians have known this for almost 4,000 years and science is just now coming to understand this.
This might be a good reason to trust God/the bible when speaking to an atheist.
But, again, I doubt it would work.
We do, however, have to keep pounding away.
I met a couple in a store. She's a devout Catholic and he's an atheist. I asked him what he thinks happens after death. He said NOTHING. I asked him "What if you're wrong?" They kind of look at you like you're a bit batty and tell you they're sure and don't care to think about it.
It's up to the Holy Spirit - but the physical world is so palpable...
. What science calls Quantum Fluctuations I and others call Yehovah both can even be defined in the same manner. Both are eternal, both created something from nothing, both are non-physical, both act upon the physical, both pre-date the universe.
