I don't think the other poster is even reading the messages he's replying to. But, what is the difference between foreordained and foreknowledge? Jesus said Judas betrayed Him because scripture must be fulfilled. That sounds like foreordained. The Bible says God blinded the Jews. That sounds like foreordained.
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Who nailed Him ?
- Thread starter twinc
- Start date
I don't think the other poster is even reading the messages he's replying to. But, what is the difference between foreordained and foreknowledge? Jesus said Judas betrayed Him because scripture must be fulfilled. That sounds like foreordained. The Bible says God blinded the Jews. That sounds like foreordained.
R
rrowell
Guest
Besides it all, it is actually off topic, he took it off topic posting to Reba, then cried off topic when someone calls him out on it.
for it to be "foreordained" God would have had to make Esau evil, that would make God culpable (guilty) of Esau's sinful ways as God would have made Esau evil and God would not do such a thing..
for it to be "foreknowledge" (which is the fact) God foreknew that Esau would "make wrong decisions" and Jacob would not...
By God "foreknowing" something does not take away a mans will to do the right thing. "foreordained" does...
I may sin next Wed at 7:00pm by not going to Bible Study, and God may know it, but that does not mean he made me that way and nothing I can do about it. it would be my choice to sin, he just knew what choice I "will" make.
smaller
Member
No 'choice' of Esau would have made any difference. God hated Esau. No choice of Judas could have changed the uses of Satan 'in' Judas, which is the point of the exercise of observations. It wasn't just Judas involved. Gods Spirit Determined in advance what was going to happen. Satan in Judas resisted on cue.
Some freewillers have an imaginary scenario where God looked forward, saw all their supposed freewill choices, and then happens to 'insert' His Will therein allowing said 'free' will to be maintained as they must to hold their doctrine.
When there are obviously two other wills at play 'in man' the freewill premise is baloney as it makes no account for the Will of God and Satan that are assuredly involved 'in man.'
The will of Satan blocks this matter from sight. And does so by Gods Will and allowance.
Mark 4:15
And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.
What happened to Judas? Read the above. Jesus was not lying. What happened to Peter? Read the above.
God in not engaged in this present world only with men of flesh or their wills alone.
Ephesians 6:12
For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
There was a predetermined wrestling match done in Judas. That would be IN Judas.
Luke 22:3
Then entered Satan into Judas surnamed Iscariot, being of the number of the twelve.
Even in Judas surname, there is spiritual content of this exact matter. But those who can not see will not be shown it.
It will remain spiritually problematic for any reader to see this 'in man' because of the resistance of the other party factually 'in man,' just as Jesus spoke.
And even though the head on engagement of Jesus in Israel was with 'the real but unseen' culprits, few within theology engage that factual matter, nor can they.
s
smaller
Member
Jesus came first and specifically to the 'lost' sheep of Israel.
Why were they lost?
The 'god of this world' blinded them minds of the majority of them exactly as the scriptures state.
How did that 'god' blind their minds? Jesus showed us that as well:
Mark 4:15
And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.
God gives sight to whomever He Pleases.
And theology is much more interesting when 'all' the parties are on the table of facts for viewing.
It was and is in fact God Himself who 'binds' all men to disobedience and does so exactly how it was shown by Jesus.
Romans 11:32
For God has bound everyone over to disobedience -
Yeah, God does that.
The same LIGHT that saves a believer is the LIGHT that arouses and hardens SATAN to resist according to the Will of God.
Scriptural principle 101
s
smaller
Member
IF you have an encounter with sin, which we all factually do, those who 'do so' are being pawned and the believer is then made again A SLAVE to that working.
Fact is jason, it's not just you there in your own head. When you 'recognize' that 'temptation' is not YOU as Gods child it is much easier to divide.
If however you see it as just you, you are going to be more inclined to follow 'your own' urges and to be enslaved by same, eventually.
The battles transpire within regardless:
Mark 7:21
For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders,
That's where it starts.
If you read Romans 7 Paul describes how 'sin' indwelling him reacted to the LAW and he was entirely helpless to stop it from happening. His conclusion from that exercise of fact? The 'law' that none of us avoid confrontation with:
Romans 7:21
I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
This is what made Paul a 'wretched' man. He saw how utterly helpless he really was.
His Spirit alone gives Victory in those called to see the facts.
s
R
rrowell
Guest
I am fully aware of what your 39 Articles of faith says, it is your man made doctrine that you have to retreat to in order to make your ideology fit, The Bible says clearly we have "choice" Including Esau:
Joshua 24:15 (NKJV)
15 And if it seems evil to you to serve the LORD, choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD."
For God to have predestined Esau to be evil then this is a lie:
Acts 10:34 (NKJV)
Then Peter opened his mouth and said: "In truth I perceive that God shows no partiality.
Galatians 2:6 (NKJV)
But from those who seemed to be something--whatever they were, it makes no difference to me; God shows personal favoritism to no man-(this includes Jacob, emphasis mine)-for those who seemed to be something added nothing to me.
It is not what what you call "free willers" that are blinded, it is those that believe man doesn't or cannot "choose" who he will server Joshua 24:15.
smaller
Member
You will continue to fail and miss the point entirely.
It is not just 'man' who's choices are involved.
God Himself has promised to utterly destroy the house of Esau, period:
Obadiah 1:18
And the house of Jacob shall be a fire, and the house of Joseph a flame, and the house of Esau for stubble, and they shall kindle in them, and devour them; and there shall not be any remaining of the house of Esau; for the LORD hath spoken it.
s
God Himself also promised to wipe Israel off the map, but not utterly destroy Jacob - as Christians are living testimony to.
smaller
Member
Quite funny. Are you sure you are not Muslim?
Romans 11:26
And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written
B
BornAgain
Guest
"All Israel" here means all who believe in Jesus Christ, both Jews and Gentiles. The Jews, as a nation, were taken out of the way to open the way for the Gentiles to come in among the faithful branches of the Israelites; and so all believers, both Jews and Gentiles, which constitute the true Israel of God, will be saved. The unbelievers ceased to be counted as Israel. even as it is written, There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer; he shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:—"Jacob" cannot here mean the fleshly house of Israel, but the true Israel of God that believe in Christ. From these Jesus Christ, the deliverer, will turn away ungodliness.
R
rrowell
Guest
I don't miss the point, you do, God "made" a plan from the beginning, but it did not include in his plan for Esau to fail him, but foreknowledge that Esau would fail him (a choice Esau made) he allowed to happen...
He promised to utterly destroy the house of Esau when? before he was born? or after?
You cannot removed man having "choice" to obey God without removing this verse (and others) from the Bible:
Joshua 24:15 (KJV)
15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.
smaller
Member
In the case of 'all of Israel' in Romans 11:25-30 Paul includes even the enemies of the Gospel as it pertains to Israel. Go read it.
B
BornAgain
Guest
You're still butting heads against scripture. “Behold, the eyes of the Lord God are on the sinful kingdom [of Israel], and I will destroy it from the face of the earth;"
What do you think "all Israel" means? Do you think everyone who follows the Talmud converts on his deathbed to Christianity? Do you think "jews" now in Hell will convert at some point in the future? Do you think there will be one generation of Jews, the last generation, that is saved, while Jews who have died over 2000 years will stay in Hell for eternity?
Whatever it is you believe, you haven't thought it through. And, you don't understand what Paul is saying in Romans 11:26 because you don't know what Israel is.
smaller
Member
We 'all' have sin and have sinned, which showing is clearly made with Israel.
What's your point?
As Paul applied it, 'all of Israel' who shall be saved is all of them inclusive of 'enemies' of the Gospel in Romans 11:25-30 who are beloved REGARDLESS for the sakes of their fathers.
Paul explained exactly what happened to them all who did not believe. They were purposefully blinded by God in our behalves.
30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief
Some will return the merciful sight they have received. Many won't, and can't.
You do not see the difference between the blinded, the cause of their blindness and the The One who purposefully blinded them, and instead see 'only flesh Jews.' So what? There is more to see.
I don't need your definition of 'who' Israel is. Scriptures do that quite well and what is written is not in need of your substitutions.
MERCY to Israel, past, present and future.
And you may also understand that God lays chastisement upon those He Loves and does NOT SO on bastard sons.
s
B
BornAgain
Guest
Heb 12:8 KJV
But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.
If ye be without that discipline of which all the children of God have ever been partakers, it would follow that ye are really not his children: but that ye are bastards (nothoi), an illegitimate offspring, whose education is commonly neglected, much to their own injury and disgrace. Instead, therefore, of murmuring and complaining at the chastening of the Lord, you should rather feel encouraged by it, knowing that it is evidence of your sonship, and of God's love for you as his adopted children.
What is your point?
smaller
Member
Not a fan of Jew bashing.
B
BornAgain
Guest
Gal 6:16 KJV
And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.
And as many as shall walk by this rule,—This rule is the rule that is to govern the new creature in Christ.
peace be upon them,—Peace with God and with themselves, the precious fruit of being in Christ, which the world can neither give nor take away. John 14:27.
and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.—This expression sums up "as many as" in a phrase which is closely identified with the whole argument of the epistle: If ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise. These are the Israel of God, whether Jews or Gentiles, for "he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God." Rom 2:29. So that the blessing is invoked on all who walked according to the rule enunciated, and so, in fact, on the true Israel, not on Israel after the flesh, but the Israel of the promise and of God.
B
BornAgain
Guest
I am not bashing...quoting and provided scripture.
jasoncran
Member
please , smaller i know far more about blind jews then you will ever know. my grandmother died last year. theres much about judiasm i wish i know more about so that i could do as i do now to reach her.
i spend alot of time reading jewish articles and discussing them. i know and see their blindness. the jews said clearly to pilot" His blood be upon us and our children.." and"crucify him" that to me says they knew what they were doing and wanted him did.
feel free read some that i have posted here. chai isreal.(long live isreal!)i may be a christian but isreal is never far from heart. but i will not place isreal above my LORD.
i spend alot of time reading jewish articles and discussing them. i know and see their blindness. the jews said clearly to pilot" His blood be upon us and our children.." and"crucify him" that to me says they knew what they were doing and wanted him did.
feel free read some that i have posted here. chai isreal.(long live isreal!)i may be a christian but isreal is never far from heart. but i will not place isreal above my LORD.