Who nailed Him ?

[for_his_glory]

In all reality it was the Jews that nailed Jesus to the cross to silence him forever because they believed that such a king of the Jews should come out of a priestly family with earthly riches to keep the scribes and priest in the lifestyle they had become accustomed to, but instead they got one who came against their vanities and chastised them instead, (Ref: Matthew 23). Even Nathaniel asks could anything good come out of Nazareth. The Jewish priest and scribes accused Jesus of blasphemy because Jesus came against their traditions and laws.

 

[Hammer]

I fail to see the benefit of such tail chasing.

We know you don't like Jews so I understand why you try such nonsense.

Got it. You think Paul is a liar for being all things to all people, being "as a Jew" to Jews. He wasn't "as a Jew" as he claimed, he was a Jew (period).

 

[smaller]

Got it. You think Paul is a liar for being all things to all people, being "as a Jew" to Jews. He wasn't "as a Jew" as he claimed, he was a Jew (period).

Uh, OK then. :eeeekkk

 

[Hammer]

All for Christ

3 Finally, my brethren, rejoice in the Lord. For me to write the same things to you is not tedious, but for you it is safe.
2 Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the mutilation [false circumcision, false Jews]! 3 For we [CHRISTIANS] are the circumcision, who worship God in the Spirit,[a] rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh, 4 though I also might have confidence in the flesh. If anyone else thinks he may have confidence in the flesh, I more so: 5 circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of the Hebrews; concerning the law, a Pharisee;

Churches teach so little about the Bible that people are left clueless when verses are pulled out of context.

Paul warns to beware of the false circumcision. These are the so-called Jews. These "dogs" is what Smaller insists Paul is. Romans 2:28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.

If you went on to quote v6, Paul says he is a persecutor of the church and a Pharisee. But, we know Paul was no longer a persecutor of the church. Just the same, Paul was no longer a Pharisee, even if he told Pharisees he was a Pharisee. Someone who isn't blind can follow that the definition of a Pharisee is someone under the law and Paul taught again and again that Christians (including himself) are not under the law therefor Paul could not have been a Pharisee.

Paul was not a Jew (false circumcision, false Jew), but he was a Jew (Christian). Paul was not a Pharisee (someone under the law), but he was a Pharisee (an ex-pharisee who voluntarily observed the law so that he could not be blamed by false Jews).

 

[smaller]

Churches teach so little about the Bible that people are left clueless when verses are pulled out of context.

Paul warns to beware of the false circumcision. These are the so-called Jews. These "dogs" is what Smaller insists Paul is.

Oh please. I've said nothing of the sort.

Paul was undoubtedly both a Jew by the lineage of his flesh and also in heart.

Because of your insistence to see Jews of the flesh as DOGS you seem intent on not seeing Paul for what he was, a Jew of flesh and spiritually as well.

So what is really your intents in any of it save to say Jews are dogs?

If there is any connection to dog-hood it is with gentiles. But any such pinning is spiritually discerned.

If you went on to quote v6, Paul says he is a persecutor of the church and a Pharisee. But, we know Paul was no longer a persecutor of the church. Just the same, Paul was no longer a Pharisee, even if he told Pharisees he was a Pharisee. Someone who isn't blind can follow that the definition of a Pharisee is someone under the law and Paul taught again and again that Christians (including himself) are not under the law therefor Paul could not have been a Pharisee.

Quite hilarious.

Paul was not a Jew (false circumcision, false Jew), but he was a Jew (Christian).

There is little point to making that claim when Paul never said that is the case. When he 'truthfully' identified himself he did so as both Jew by lineage and PHARISEE by the sectarian understanding within Judaism of there being a resurrection of the dead, which is ALSO held by Christiandom for the most part.

Paul was not a Pharisee (someone under the law), but he was a Pharisee (an ex-pharisee who voluntarily observed the law so that he could not be blamed by false Jews).

Obviously there is nothing 'illegal' about being voluntarily 'legal.'

With regards to the law similar observations can be made. There is carnal law and spiritual law. The former is not 'against' the latter. They blend quite nicely and ARE complimentary.

The carnal law for example says not to murder. The spiritual matters of murderous intent point to the INSIDE originations. Under the Law of the Spirit people can be and in fact ARE murderers IN HEART regardless of their breaking the external command.

Every poster here who promotes and desires to see other believers burn alive forever has in fact committed murder in their HEART and continues in that lawlessness, though it may remain unseen, even by them as such.

The law of the Spirit takes a much closer inspection of lawlessness, on the inside of the cup.

And in this look lawlessness is found to be a fact in all regardless of how fancy the outside of the tomb is painted or what kinds of 'doctrines' are applied to slide past this matter.

s

 

[Hammer]

Paul was undoubtedly both a Jew by the lineage of his flesh and also in heart.

Yet, in a past post, you mocked me for the position that Paul is and isn't a Jew, depending on measure. But, Paul wasn't a Jew by lineage. You've been very insistent on taking a superficial view of Paul's isolated statements, and he didn't, superficially or not, claim to be a Jew by lineage. He claimed to be an Israelite by lineage. Paul wasn't in the line of Judah.

Because of your insistence to see Jews of the flesh as DOGS you seem intent on not seeing Paul for what he was, a Jew of flesh and spiritually as well.

Paul calls Jews of false-circumcision (Jews as opposed to Christians) "dogs". Do you have an issue with Paul's insistence?

When he 'truthfully' identified himself he did so as both Jew by lineage and PHARISEE by the sectarian understanding within Judaism of there being a resurrection of the dead, which is ALSO held by Christiandom for the most part.

The defining characteristic of a Pharisee is strict adherence the the law, which Paul practiced, but no longer believed. Are you Pharisee? Don't you believe in the resurrection of the dead?

With regards to the law similar observations can be made. There is carnal law and spiritual law. The former is not 'against' the latter. They blend quite nicely and ARE complimentary.

There is no carnal law, as you put it. All sin, breaking the law, has always been a matter of the heart/spirit. But, it's measured for physical punishment in the act. You cannot commit murder without the intent to murder.

 

[smaller]

Yet, in a past post, you mocked me for the position that Paul is and isn't a Jew, depending on measure.

There is no mock available. He makes his own statements for either of us to read.

But, Paul wasn't a Jew by lineage.

Your intention in that is to denigrate Jews and Judaism. Paul did neither.

You've been very insistent on taking a superficial view of Paul's isolated statements,

Statements they be nevertheless. The superficial claim is nonsense because the statements are statements of fact from Paul.

and he didn't, superficially or not, claim to be a Jew by lineage. He claimed to be an Israelite by lineage. Paul wasn't in the line of Judah.

Please see prior citings of Paul, however 'isolated' you may claim same, stating he was A JEW.

Paul calls Jews of false-circumcision (Jews as opposed to Christians) "dogs". Do you have an issue with Paul's insistence?

Obviously when the term 'dog' is applied it is a spiritual matter. They are OBVIOUSLY not 'dogs' in the physical sense. Jesus said the BREAD OF LIFE was intended to JEWS first. So did Paul.

The defining characteristic of a Pharisee is strict adherence the the law, which Paul practiced, but no longer believed. Are you Pharisee? Don't you believe in the resurrection of the dead?

Oh please. You expect chasing that tail has some purpose?

Paul also stated MANY times he believed ALL that the Law and the Prophets present and also PRACTICED same.

There is no carnal law, as you put it. All sin, breaking the law, has always been a matter of the heart/spirit.

It is both. And yes, there is CARNAL LAW:

Hebrews 7:16
Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment,

But, it's measured for physical punishment in the act. You cannot commit murder without the intent to murder.

Murder is committed without carnal or flesh MURDER, and is PERFORMED FIRST as murder in heart.

Believers do it here and everywhere daily.

Jesus PINPOINTED His MURDERERS before they did the deed:

John 8:40
But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.

and of course, they, being BLINDED, did not see it that way:

"The people answered and said, Thou hast a devil: who goeth about to kill thee?"

Jesus KNEW what their intentions were before they even moved their lips because He knew what their internal issues were, which are in fact PREDICTABLE in advance.

If you knew 'how' the Law worked you would also know.

s

 

[Hammer]

Obviously when the term 'dog' is applied it is a spiritual matter.

Maybe you can clear things up. Shimon Peres is president of Israel. Is he a Jew? Is he a Jew the same as Paul? If so, how?

 

[smaller]

Maybe you can clear things up. Shimon Peres is president of Israel. Is he a Jew? Is he a Jew the same as Paul? If so, how?

I'd wager you know quite a bit about how to find ways to condemn Jews.

 

[Randy]

Maybe you can clear things up. Shimon Peres is president of Israel. Is he a Jew? Is he a Jew the same as Paul? If so, how?

Thats a different topic isn't it as those in ancient Israel were seen as Jews. That fine line can't be drawn in this day and age. We are speaking of "Who nailed Him" and I think I posted what Peter (a Israelite, Hebrew, Child of Abraham) addressed to the crowd (Men of Israel). None of that takes away from what the one who Judges spoke on the cross. "Father forgive them for they know not what they do"

Jesus came to save. It has been appointed to man to die once and face judgment. No matter race, gender or religion. However in regard to salvation there is only One savior appointed by God and attested to by signs miracles and wonders (For the Father Glorified Him like no other) and that person is Jesus the Christ the Son of the Living God. (Jew and Gentile, male and female are all one in Christ Jesus).

Randy

 

[John 8:32]

Where is that stated that Jesus forgave either the Romans, or the Jews?

He forgave them all...

Luk 23:34 Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots.

He made no distinction in this statement.

 

[Stormcrow]

But Paul said, "I am a Jew of Tarsus in Cilicia, a citizen of no insignificant city; and I beg you, allow me to speak to the people." Acts 21:39 (NASB)

I don't understand the argument that suggests Paul was not a Jew when he clearly says he was. Am I missing something here?

 

[Hammer]

He forgave them all...

Luk 23:34 Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots.

He made no distinction in this statement.

The Jews cast lots for his raiment? No, that was the Romans. The Jews were judged in 70AD and were not forgiven.

For the days will come upon you when your enemies will throw up a barricade against you, and surround you and hem you in on every side, and they will level you to the ground and your children within you, and they will not leave in you one stone upon another, because you did not recognize the time of your visitation.

These are days of vengeance, so that all things which are written will be fulfilled. Woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days; for there will be great distress upon the land and wrath to this people; and they will fall by the edge of the sword, and will be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled under foot by the Gentiles...


I hope you won't be repeating your error. How did you come about such an error in the first place?

 

[smaller]

But Paul said, "I am a Jew of Tarsus in Cilicia, a citizen of no insignificant city; and I beg you, allow me to speak to the people." Acts 21:39 (NASB)

I don't understand the argument that suggests Paul was not a Jew when he clearly says he was. Am I missing something here?

Brilliant observation of written fact.

As it pertains to this particular topic, it has been put on the table that 'scripturally speaking' there were, besides the people of whatever 'flesh' term is applied, Roman or Jew for example, TWO other parties factually 'involved' within the WILLS and INTENTIONS of those people.

The other Wills are The Will of God and the will of the powers of internal darkness.

These latter TWO are always in 'contention' but the latter does in fact do and perform the 'resistance DICTATES' of God.

s

 

[Stormcrow]

forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots.

The "they" that parted his garments and casts lots is the same "they" that knew not what they did and it's "them" that Christ is asking forgiveness for from the cross.

So who were "they" that parted His garments and cast lots?

"They" were the Roman soldiers that oversaw His crucifixion, which is made clear in Matthew's gospel:

Then the soldiers of the governor took Jesus into the Praetorium and gathered the whole Roman cohort around Him. They stripped Him and put a scarlet robe on Him. And after twisting together a crown of thorns, they put it on His head, and a reed in His right hand; and they knelt down before Him and mocked Him, saying, "Hail, King of the Jews!" They spat on Him, and took the reed and began to beat Him on the head. After they had mocked Him, they took the scarlet robe off Him and put His own garments back on Him, and led Him away to crucify Him.

As they were coming out, they found a man of Cyrene named Simon, whom they pressed into service to bear His cross. And when they came to a place called Golgotha, which means Place of a Skull, they gave Him wine to drink mixed with gall; and after tasting it, He was unwilling to drink. And when they had crucified Him, they divided up His garments among themselves by casting lots. And sitting down, they began to keep watch over Him there. Matthew 27:27-36 (NASB)

Every use of the word "they" in this passage refers back to "the soldiers of the governor" (Pilate) and "the whole Roman cohort!"

This is the same "they" recorded in Luke's gospel.On the other hand, what did Jesus say to the women on His way to Golgotha?

And following Him was a large crowd of the people, and of women who were mourning and lamenting Him. But Jesus turning to them said, "Daughters of Jerusalem, stop weeping for Me, but weep for yourselves and for your children. "For behold, the days are coming when they will say, 'Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bore, and the breasts that never nursed.' "Then they will begin TO SAY TO THE MOUNTAINS, 'FALL ON US,' AND TO THE HILLS, 'COVER US.' "For if they do these things when the tree is green, what will happen when it is dry?" Luke 23:27-31 (NASB)

This is the same thing He told the disciples on the Mount of Olives!

"But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! "But pray that your flight will not be in the winter, or on a Sabbath. "For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will. Matthew 24:19-21 (NASB)

And it's the same thing John records in Revelation:

Then the kings of the earth and the great men and the commanders and the rich and the strong and every slave and free man hid themselves in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains; and they *said to the mountains and to the rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the presence of Him who sits on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb; for the great day of their wrath has come, and who is able to stand?" Revelation 6:15-17 (NASB)

Jerusalem was not forgiven: it was judged, as the Jews bore the greater sin for killing their king. Read Matthew 21:33-46 to understand this point.

God no longer holds the sins of that generation against the Jews. All - Jew or Gentile - are welcome into His presence through faith in Jesus Christ.

 

[Randy]

The "they" that parted his garments and casts lots is the same "they" that knew not what they did and it's "them" that Christ is asking forgiveness for from the cross.

So who were "they" that parted His garments and cast lots?

"They" were the Roman soldiers that oversaw His crucifixion, which is made clear in Matthew's gospel:

Then the soldiers of the governor took Jesus into the Praetorium and gathered the whole Roman cohort around Him. They stripped Him and put a scarlet robe on Him. And after twisting together a crown of thorns, they put it on His head, and a reed in His right hand; and they knelt down before Him and mocked Him, saying, "Hail, King of the Jews!" They spat on Him, and took the reed and began to beat Him on the head. After they had mocked Him, they took the scarlet robe off Him and put His own garments back on Him, and led Him away to crucify Him.

As they were coming out, they found a man of Cyrene named Simon, whom they pressed into service to bear His cross. And when they came to a place called Golgotha, which means Place of a Skull, they gave Him wine to drink mixed with gall; and after tasting it, He was unwilling to drink. And when they had crucified Him, they divided up His garments among themselves by casting lots. And sitting down, they began to keep watch over Him there. Matthew 27:27-36 (NASB)

Every use of the word "they" in this passage refers back to "the soldiers of the governor" (Pilate) and "the whole Roman cohort!"

This is the same "they" recorded in Luke's gospel.On the other hand, what did Jesus say to the women on His way to Golgotha? And following Him was a large crowd of the people, and of women who were mourning and lamenting Him. But Jesus turning to them said, "Daughters of Jerusalem, stop weeping for Me, but weep for yourselves and for your children. "For behold, the days are coming when they will say, 'Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bore, and the breasts that never nursed.' "Then they will begin TO SAY TO THE MOUNTAINS, 'FALL ON US,' AND TO THE HILLS, 'COVER US.' "For if they do these things when the tree is green, what will happen when it is dry?" Luke 23:27-31 (NASB)

This is the same thing He told the disciples on the Mount of Olives!

"But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! "But pray that your flight will not be in the winter, or on a Sabbath. "For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will. Matthew 24:19-21 (NASB)


And it's the same thing John records in Revelation:


Then the kings of the earth and the great men and the commanders and the rich and the strong and every slave and free man hid themselves in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains; and they *said to the mountains and to the rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the presence of Him who sits on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb; for the great day of their wrath has come, and who is able to stand?" Revelation 6:15-17 (NASB)



Jerusalem was not forgiven: it was judged, as the Jews bore the greater sin for killing their king. Read Matthew 21:33-46 to understand this point.

The great tribulation is a future event that will come upon the whole world. But in regard to Israel I do read a victory not defeat. That outcome didn't happen in AD70. Rev 11 is the last testimony before Gods judgments are poured out to the whole world. If anyone in the world which includes those living in Israel has any shred of faith they will believe. Rev 11:13 As for the rest of the world they will follow the beast.

As me and others have posted Jesus didn't state "Father forgive the Romans only for they know not what they do"

We now go in circles repeating the same things at one another. My take you are very much mistaken if you state the Jesus I know condemned Israel for the act of the cross. Its just the opposite. He wanted to save them all. But they wouldn't let Him. (freewill) Jesus wept.

Randy

 

[Stormcrow]

The great tribulation is a future event that will come upon the whole world.

Jesus and the apostles beg to differ.

My take you are very much mistaken if you state the Jesus I know condemned Israel for the act of the cross.

Well then, Jesus must have been mistaken, too.

"Listen to another parable. There was a landowner [God] who PLANTED A VINEYARD [Jerusalem] AND PUT A WALL AROUND IT AND DUG A WINE PRESS IN IT, AND BUILT A TOWER, and rented it out to vine-growers [priests, princes] and went on a journey.

"When the harvest time approached [the end of the age], he sent his slaves [prophets, messengers] to the vine-growers [priests, princes] to receive his produce.

"The vine-growers [priests] took his slaves [prophets, messengers] and beat one, and killed another, and stoned a third. "Again he sent another group of slaves [prophets, messengers] larger than the first; and they did the same thing to them.

"But afterward he sent his son [Jesus Christ] to them, saying, 'They will respect my son.' "But when the vine-growers saw the son, they said among themselves, 'This is the heir; come, let us kill him and seize his inheritance.' "They took him, and threw him out of the vineyard [Jerusalem] and killed [crucified] him.

"Therefore when the owner [God] of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those vine-growers?"

They *said to Him, "He will bring those wretches to a wretched end, and will rent out the vineyard to other vine-growers who will pay him the proceeds at the proper seasons."

Jesus *said to them, "Did you never read in the Scriptures, 'THE STONE WHICH THE BUILDERS REJECTED, THIS BECAME THE CHIEF CORNER stone; THIS CAME ABOUT FROM THE LORD, AND IT IS MARVELOUS IN OUR EYES'?

"Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God [Jerusalem] will be taken away from you and given to a people, producing the fruit of it.

"And he who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces; but on whomever it falls, it will scatter him like dust."

When the chief priests and the Pharisees heard His parables, they understood that He was speaking about them. When they sought to seize Him, they feared the people, because they considered Him to be a prophet. Matthew 21:33-46 (NASB)

Now, for further reading, go to Revelation 5 and look at who's unsealing the scroll of judgment upon Jerusalem.

 

[Stormcrow]

"Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God [Jerusalem] will be taken away from you and given to a people, producing the fruit of it.

In the parable of the vineyard, Christ is clearly equating the vineyard (Jerusalem) with the "kingdom of God." Therefore, when John sees the new Jerusalem "coming down out of heaven", it's clear that the new Jerusalem is the kingdom of God and the people to whom it is given is His church, over which Christ is made the head.

 

[Stormcrow]

As me and others have posted Jesus didn't state "Father forgive the Romans only for they know not what they do"

He didn't have to. It's implied in the text and the repeated use of the word "they" in reference to the "soldiers of the governor" and the "whole Roman cohort."

 

[smaller]

The great tribulation is a future event that will come upon the whole world. But in regard to Israel I do read a victory not defeat. That outcome didn't happen in AD70. Rev 11 is the last testimony before Gods judgments are poured out to the whole world. If anyone in the world which includes those living in Israel has any shred of faith they will believe. Rev 11:13 As for the rest of the world they will follow the beast.

As me and others have posted Jesus didn't state "Father forgive the Romans only for they know not what they do"

We now go in circles repeating the same things at one another. My take you are very much mistaken if you state the Jesus I know condemned Israel for the act of the cross. Its just the opposite. He wanted to save them all. But they wouldn't let Him. (freewill) Jesus wept.

Randy

You know Randy, freewillers always always impose that as a supposed 'fact.'

Fact is, it's not.

There are factually TWO other wills in play in these matters and are so IN man.

The Law shows us that the operations of internal darkness ARE for a fact within us all, and that no matter WHAT our 'will' says, the internal workings of SIN always always always works 'against' the Law, proving beyond any doubt our factual conditions of having sin. No mans will can change that fact.

Paul delineates this fact quite sufficiently in Romans, particularly in chapter 7 where he shows 'how' the Law against LUST for example prompted every form of concupiscence to transpire where? Within him. An Apostle no less.

There is A LAW in the Old Testament. This IS The Law of God:

'Yet the Lord hath not given you an heart to perceive, and eyes to see, and ears to hear, unto this day.'

This exact matter is repeated throughout the text, Old to New. It is a fact.

Unless God Himself grants the heart His Spirit to perceive, NONE can hear and NONE are righteous. NONE seek.

It is only God Himself that releases slaves from their internal darkness, and DIVIDES them therein.

All the combined 'free' will power of every man on earth would not sway God one bit.

He REVEALS Himself so that people may 'perceive' Him.

If not, they are intentionally 'left in the dark.'

In the above example God was speaking to Israelites who had been released from Egyptian slavery, witnessed and participated in numerous miracles, yet STILL did not have a heart to perceive given to them by God, after ALL of that.

Every person over the age of 20 who came out of Egypt DIED in the desert from UNbelief save Joshua and Caleb. Those 'un'believers included MOSES and AARON no less.

The 'freewills' of every last one of them save those whom GOD Himself elected to 'cross over' remained subject to UNbelief.

Now, how many blinded, wrapped up in darkness people crucified Christ?

ALL of them, and they were all factually and intentionally left in the dark by God Himself.

Are we to RULE OUT God in those activities at the cross and blame blinded slaves of darkness on the basis of their freewills? That understanding is a JOKE Randy. It's an understanding of religious people that was laid on you to justify yourself and to condemn blinded slaves.

s