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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
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Who?
- Thread starter donadams
- Start date
Jesus is the Word made fleshly.
Why? The Bible clearly demonstrates the He is God.
John 1:1-3 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being."
The creeds are based on this, among many other scriptural references. They act as a summary and guide to help us understand the Bible.
The creeds are based on this, among many other scriptural references. They act as a summary and guide to help us understand the Bible.
Greetings donadams,
Kind regards
Trevor
None of the above. He is a human, now exalted to sit at the right hand of God in God the Father's Throne, and he is the Son of God by birth with God the Father as his father and Mary his mother Matthew 1:20-21, Luke 1:34-35, and he is the Son of God by character, he was "full of grace and truth" John 1:14, and he is the Son of God by resurrection from the dead Romans 1:1-4.
Kind regards
Trevor
“Only a man” big problem!
Jer 17:5 Thus saith the Lord; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the Lord.
If Jesus is not divine and only a man then you who trust in Him for salvation are cursed!
Reads like you adhere to Biblical Unitarian beliefs. That is Jesus's life began in Mary's womb and He is a exalted man. Are you a biblical Unitarian?
That is an oxymoron. There is no such thing.
Greetings Randy,
Kind regards
Trevor
I should imagine that "Biblical Unitarian" covers a range of Unitarians who claim to be "Biblical", but I agree with your assessment that "Jesus's life began in Mary's womb and He is a exalted man". Jesus is the Son of God.
Kind regards
Trevor
Jeremiah 17:5
Thus saith the Lord; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man!
Trust in Christ for salvation?
Rev 1:8
Christ not the Father who ascended into heaven!
1 Timothy 3:16
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
“Received up into glory”!
Acts 1:9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
You mean my assessment it what I see you stating which is a Biblical Unitarian belief NOT mine just to be clear.
Yes, but that's what they call their church.
You say "Jesus' life began in Mary's womb" - does that mean you don't believe He existed prior to that?
Greetings again Randy and Greetings tdidymas,
Matthew 1:20–21 (KJV): 20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit. 21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.
Luke 1:34–35 (KJV): 34 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man? 35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Spirit shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.
There is no hint of a prior existence in any of the above.
Kind regards
Trevor
I can recall 4 or 5 different denominations that believe in the human Jesus with the One God, God the Father as his father, and with Mary as his mother. Exactly what the other 4 call their "church", I am not completely sure, or what label they would display outside their building. In my region we have eight meetings in my fellowship and none have the label "Biblical Unitarian" and I have NEVER seen any Church in my extensive region with such a sign or description. In my adult 60 years in my fellowship, I have only ever heard the expression "Biblical Unitarian" on possibly two occasions, and this was on the internet by someone in another Australian State. My consent to the title is that it would distinguish between our beliefs on many subjects and the historic Unitarians, who possibly do not believe the verses that I will quote below.
Jesus is a human, the Son of God, with God the Father as his father and Mary his mother. I base my belief on the two records concerning the conception of Jesus:
Matthew 1:20–21 (KJV): 20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit. 21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.
Luke 1:34–35 (KJV): 34 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man? 35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Spirit shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.
There is no hint of a prior existence in any of the above.
Kind regards
Trevor
Trev, you're not taking all scripture into account. What do you make of:
1. The fact that John the Baptist, who was born 6 months before Jesus, said "He existed before me." This certainly indicates that Jesus had an existence before his conception. (John 1:15, 30)
2. "In the beginning was the Word..." "And the Word became flesh..." John 1:1, 14, which indicates that not only Jesus existed before He became flesh, but that He "became flesh," unlike normal humans whose existence begins at conception. In addition to that, it indicates that He "was God" in that preexistence.
3. Paul wrote in Phil. 2:6 (and context) that Jesus had existed in the form of God prior to Him becoming a man. It clearly states that He did exist, that He had a will before His humanity, that He made the choice to become a man, etc.
What do you make of that?
Greetings tdidymas,
This is speaking of status, position in the plan and purpose of God. John, who was born say 1 year before Jesus would not in normal terms be greater than Jesus because of his age, and age does not confer a superior status
John 1:14 (KJV): And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
The glory revealed by Jesus was a moral glory, he was "full of grace and truth" at the time of his ministry. This is not speaking of his physical attributes. His connection with God and the derivation of his unique character is that he is "the only begotten of the Father", and the narrative of his begettal is in Matthew 1:20-21 and Luke 1:34-35, and again here in John 1:14 there is no hint of a prior physical existence.
The growth and development of the human Jesus is stated in
Luke 2:40–52 (KJV): 40 And the child grew, and waxed strong in spirit, filled with wisdom: and the grace of God was upon him.
52 And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man.
There is no hint here that Jesus is God. Jesus does not have two minds, and two different abilities, one human and the other Divine, and Jesus is a distinct Being, separate from the One God, Yahweh, God his Father. His development was by "the grace of God" and he grew "in favour with God", clearly distinguishing the One God, God the Father from Jesus.
Kind regards
Trevor
I am very conscious of the full range of the Scripture on this subject and have examined in other threads some of the Trinitarian claims, but I will briefly answer your items and then add another basic text in support of the human Jesus.
John 1:15,30 (KJV): 15 John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me. 30 This is he of whom I said, After me cometh a man which is preferred before me: for he was before me.
This is speaking of status, position in the plan and purpose of God. John, who was born say 1 year before Jesus would not in normal terms be greater than Jesus because of his age, and age does not confer a superior status
I understand "The Word" in John 1:1 is a personification of God's plan, purpose, wisdom and character similar to the Wise Woman "Wisdom" in Proverbs 8. This "Logos" became fulfilled in the birth and ministry of Jesus as stated in
John 1:14 (KJV): And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
The glory revealed by Jesus was a moral glory, he was "full of grace and truth" at the time of his ministry. This is not speaking of his physical attributes. His connection with God and the derivation of his unique character is that he is "the only begotten of the Father", and the narrative of his begettal is in Matthew 1:20-21 and Luke 1:34-35, and again here in John 1:14 there is no hint of a prior physical existence.
Philippians 2 is speaking of the disposition of Jesus' mind in his youth, and before and during his ministry, that despite the fact that he was the greatest human ever born and raised, he humbled himself to become a servant to God his Father's will, even to the death on the cross. There is an allusion to the language of the Garden of Eden, where Adam also was formed in the image and likeness of God, but grasped at equality with God. Also Paul alludes to the Servant prophecies of Isaiah, especially the Four Servant Songs, which speak of his ministry, humanity, education and sufferings.
The growth and development of the human Jesus is stated in
Luke 2:40–52 (KJV): 40 And the child grew, and waxed strong in spirit, filled with wisdom: and the grace of God was upon him.
52 And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man.
There is no hint here that Jesus is God. Jesus does not have two minds, and two different abilities, one human and the other Divine, and Jesus is a distinct Being, separate from the One God, Yahweh, God his Father. His development was by "the grace of God" and he grew "in favour with God", clearly distinguishing the One God, God the Father from Jesus.
Kind regards
Trevor
What makes you think it's about "status, position in the plan and purpose of God"? Where in the context is any such indication given?
Rather, the context is clear:
Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 He was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made.
...
Joh 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made through him, yet the world did not know him.
...
Joh 1:14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.
Joh 1:15 (John bore witness about him, and cried out, “This was he of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me ranks before me, because he was before me.’”)
Joh 1:16 For from his fullness we have all received, grace upon grace.
Joh 1:17 For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.
Joh 1:18 No one has ever seen God; the only God, who is at the Father's side, he has made him known. (ESV)
Again, where in the context is any such indication given, that is is a " is a personification of God's plan, purpose, wisdom and character"? How does that make sense of the rest of the context and the Greek grammar of John 1:1?
Because the prior existence of the Son is explicitly stated in John 1:1-3 and 10. So, John clearly thinks that Jesus preexisted, but why? Because of what Jesus says, many times:
Joh 3:13 No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man. (ESV)
Joh 6:32 Jesus then said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, it was not Moses who gave you the bread from heaven, but my Father gives you the true bread from heaven.
Joh 6:33 For the bread of God is he who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.”
...
Joh 6:38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me.
...
Joh 6:49 Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died.
Joh 6:50 This is the bread that comes down from heaven, so that one may eat of it and not die.
Joh 6:51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. And the bread that I will give for the life of the world is my flesh.”
...
Joh 6:57 As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so whoever feeds on me, he also will live because of me.
Joh 6:58 This is the bread that came down from heaven, not like the bread the fathers ate, and died. Whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.” (ESV)
Joh 8:23 He said to them, “You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world.
...
Joh 8:58 Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.” (ESV)
Joh 16:28 I came from the Father and have come into the world, and now I am leaving the world and going to the Father.”
Joh 16:29 His disciples said, “Ah, now you are speaking plainly and not using figurative speech!
Joh 16:30 Now we know that you know all things and do not need anyone to question you; this is why we believe that you came from God.” (ESV)
Joh 17:24 Father, I desire that they also, whom you have given me, may be with me where I am, to see my glory that you have given me because you loved me before the foundation of the world. (ESV)
Jesus sure thought he preexisted, so we probably should too.