Bible Study Whom do I need to pray to for being saved? Either Jehovah or Jesus?

[jocor]

That would mean His only Begotten Son is God.

God the Son.

Begotten before the foundation of the world.

I must have overlooked those two phrases in my Bible. Can you tell me what verses use "God the Son" and "Begotten before the foundation of the world"?

 

[JLB]

Well, God begot Jesus when He became a human. In that sense.

He was begotten then He was sent into the world.

In this the love of God was manifested toward us, that God has sent His only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through Him.
1 John 4:9

He is the Firstborn over creation.

He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. Colossians 1:15


He appeared as the Angel of the Lord, the lord and God in the OT.

Here He appeared to Samson's parents.

21 When the Angel of the Lord appeared no more to Manoah and his wife, then Manoah knew that He was the Angel of the Lord.
22 And Manoah said to his wife, “We shall surely die, because we have seen God!” Judges 13:21-22

• When asked by Samson's father what His name was, He replied...

17 Then Manoah said to the Angel of the Lord, “What is Your name, that when Your words come to pass we may honor You?”
18 And the Angel of the Lord said to him, “Why do you ask My name, seeing it is wonderful?” Judges 13:17-18


For unto us a Child is born,
Unto us a Son is given;
And the government will be upon His shoulder.
And His name will be called
Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
Isaiah 9:6


JLB

 

[jocor]

Jocor,

I don't really see the difference between
And God was the Word

OR
And the Word was God.

in either case God is referred to as "the Word". So again, "Word" as a thing, cannot be God. Unless God is a thing.

This is a new idea for me and I'll have to think on it a bit, but the above sentence is pretty much what I'm going to come up with.

Psalm 33:6, for instance, is referring to God's breath, but what God breathed came into creation, and Jesus created everything and without Him was nothing created. John 1:3. And in Him was life - life is what let's everything be and continue. And so God's breathing and Jesus would seem to me to be one and the same concept. God's breath is not a thing, but a person.

So more than the word order - in which I find no difference to the end meaning - we must adhere, I think, to John's interpretation of The Word - as being The Son, the second person of the Trinity.

Do you not agree. It's interesting, however.

Wondering

No, I don't agree. I choose to not read the Son into John 1:1-4 just as translators prior to the KJV did. Here is Tyndale's translation:

"All things were made by it, and without it, was made nothing that was made. In it was life, and the life was the light of men."
​

This was the accepted English translation used for well over 100 years prior to the Roman Catholic Rheims New Testament changing it to "him" instead of "it". All ensuing English Bibles followed suit.

 

[GodsGrace]

He was begotten then He was sent into the world.

In this the love of God was manifested toward us, that God has sent His only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through Him.
1 John 4:9

He is the Firstborn over creation.

He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. Colossians 1:15


He appeared as the Angel of the Lord, the lord and God in the OT.

Here He appeared to Samson's parents.

21 When the Angel of the Lord appeared no more to Manoah and his wife, then Manoah knew that He was the Angel of the Lord.
22 And Manoah said to his wife, “We shall surely die, because we have seen God!” Judges 13:21-22

• When asked by Samson's father what His name was, He replied...

17 Then Manoah said to the Angel of the Lord, “What is Your name, that when Your words come to pass we may honor You?”
18 And the Angel of the Lord said to him, “Why do you ask My name, seeing it is wonderful?” Judges 13:17-18


For unto us a Child is born,
Unto us a Son is given;
And the government will be upon His shoulder.
And His name will be called
Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
Isaiah 9:6


JLB

Hi JLB

Nice how you tied the two "wonderfuls" together.

And yes. Jesus is the firstborn of the NEW creation.

I find everyone here to be so knowledgable!

Wondering

 

[jocor]

He was begotten then He was sent into the world.

In this the love of God was manifested toward us, that God has sent His only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through Him.
1 John 4:9

John 1:6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.​

Wasn't John the Baptist begotten before he was sent "from God"?

 

[JLB]

I must have overlooked those two phrases in my Bible. Can you tell me what verses use "God the Son" and "Begotten before the foundation of the world"?

Yes. Here it is again for you.

But to the Son He says:

“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
Hebrews 1:8

This is where I get the phrase - "God the Son" from, distinguishing Him from God the Father.


He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. Colossians 1:15

This is one of the places where I get the phrase "Begotten before the foundation of the world".

Here's another -

24 Then King Nebuchadnezzar was astonished; and he rose in haste and spoke, saying to his counselors, “Did we not cast three men bound into the midst of the fire?”
They answered and said to the king, “True, O king.”
25 “Look!” he answered, “I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire; and they are not hurt, and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God.” Daniel 3:24-25

Were they seeing the Father or the Son, in the midst of the fire?


JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

No, I don't agree. I choose to not read the Son into John 1:1-4 just as translators prior to the KJV did. Here is Tyndale's translation:

"All things were made by it, and without it, was made nothing that was made. In it was life, and the life was the light of men."
​

This was the accepted English translation used for well over 100 years prior to the Roman Catholic Rheims New Testament changing it to "him" instead of "it". All ensuing English Bibles followed suit.

Jocor,

Will be looking into this some more.
Do you trust Young's Literal Translation?
It says "who" and not "it". I always thought it went all the way back to the Greek N.T. and have depended on it.

The translation of a single word can be very important. The co-redemptive work of Mary is gotten from one word in Luke 1:38 (in Italian) in Catholicism, of course.

If you'd care to answer re Young's and then that'll be it for me here, I think.

Wondering

 

[JLB]

John 1:6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.​

Wasn't John the Baptist begotten before he was sent "from God"?

Please show the scripture where John was the only Begotten of the Father.


JLB

 

[jocor]

He appeared as the Angel of the Lord, the lord and God in the OT.

Here He appeared to Samson's parents.

21 When the Angel of the Lord appeared no more to Manoah and his wife, then Manoah knew that He was the Angel of the Lord.
22 And Manoah said to his wife, “We shall surely die, because we have seen God!” Judges 13:21-22

• When asked by Samson's father what His name was, He replied...

17 Then Manoah said to the Angel of the Lord, “What is Your name, that when Your words come to pass we may honor You?”
18 And the Angel of the Lord said to him, “Why do you ask My name, seeing it is wonderful?” Judges 13:17-18


For unto us a Child is born,
Unto us a Son is given;
And the government will be upon His shoulder.
And His name will be called
Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
Isaiah 9:6


JLB

If they saw "God the Son", then why didn't Samson's parents die when they saw him?

Exo 33:20 And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.
​

And how do you explain that sighting in the light of 1Jn 4:12?

No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.​

​

 

[JLB]

No, I don't agree. I choose to not read the Son into John 1:1-4 just as translators prior to the KJV did. Here is Tyndale's translation:

"All things were made by it, and without it, was made nothing that was made. In it was life, and the life was the light of men."
​

This was the accepted English translation used for well over 100 years prior to the Roman Catholic Rheims New Testament changing it to "him" instead of "it". All ensuing English Bibles followed suit.

Jesus is not an it. To insinuate so is blasphemy.

He is called the Word of God, not it is called the word of God.

He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. Revelation 19:13

He existed before the foundation of the world and created all things.

He is the Word of God.


JLB

 

[JLB]

If they saw "God the Son", then why didn't Samson's parents die when they saw him?

Exo 33:20 And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.
​

And how do you explain that sighting in the light of 1Jn 4:12?

No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.​

​

The same reason the three Hebrew Children didn't die, because he is God the Son, not God the Father.

Were they seeing the Son in the fire with the three Hebrew children, or the Father?

Yet you say that The Son did not exist before He was born of Mary.



JLB

 

[jocor]

Jocor,

Will be looking into this some more.
Do you trust Young's Literal Translation?
It says "who" and not "it". I always thought it went all the way back to the Greek N.T. and have depended on it.

The translation of a single word can be very important. The co-redemptive work of Mary is gotten from one word in Luke 1:38 (in Italian) in Catholicism, of course.

If you'd care to answer re Young's and then that'll be it for me here, I think.

Wondering

All translations, including YLT, do a good job for the most part, but they are not infallible or without error. The KJV, for example, uses "Easter" in Acts 12:4 instead of "Passover" which is how the Greek word "pascha" should be translated. YLT uses "Jehovah", but that cannot possibly be the correct name since there was no letter "J" or hard "J" sound in Hebrew, Greek, or English until the 16th century. Translators can also translate based on their theological beliefs. Reading the Son into John 1 is an example. Tyndale wouldn't do it, but the Rheims translators would.

 

[jocor]

Please show the scripture where John was the only Begotten of the Father.


JLB

I didn't say he was.

 

[jocor]

Jesus is not an it. To insinuate so is blasphemy.

He is called the Word of God, not it is called the word of God.

He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. Revelation 19:13

He existed before the foundation of the world and created all things.

He is the Word of God.


JLB

I fully agree that Yeshua is called "The Word of God" in Rev 19:13. He became the living Word of God in John 1:14 when the spoken words and thoughts of YHWH were made flesh.

 

[jocor]

The same reason the three Hebrew Children didn't die, because he is God the Son, not God the Father.

Were they seeing the Son in the fire with the three Hebrew children, or the Father?

Yet you say that The Son did not exist before He was born of Mary.

JLB

Of course it was not the Son in the fire. How would a pagan king know what the Son looked like or even that their was a God that had a son? He most likely thought it was an angel or some other heavenly being. Angels are called "sons of Elohim". Also, he didn't say he was the Son of God, but, in English, that he was "like the Son of God". The Hebrew does not have "the" in the text.

 

[JLB]

I fully agree that Yeshua is called "The Word of God" in Rev 19:13. He became the living Word of God in John 1:14 when the spoken words and thoughts of YHWH were made flesh.

We see the Son did in fact exist before He was born of a woman.

“Look!” he answered, “I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire; and they are not hurt, and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God.” Daniel 4:25

For all things were created by Him, through Him and for Him. Colossians.

He is before all things. It does not say "it' was before all things, He is before all things.

For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.
Colossians 1:16-17

Was Moses seeing God the Father or the Angel of the Lord, in the following verse.


2 And the Angel of the Lord appeared to him in a flame of fire from the midst of a bush. So he looked, and behold, the bush was burning with fire, but the bush was not consumed. 3 Then Moses said, “I will now turn aside and see this great sight, why the bush does not burn.”
4 So when the Lord saw that he turned aside to look, God called to him from the midst of the bush and said, “Moses, Moses!”

And he said, “Here I am.”

5 Then He said, “Do not draw near this place. Take your sandals off your feet, for the place where you stand is holy ground.” 6 Moreover He said, “I am the God of your father—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.” And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look upon God. Exodus 3:2-6


This version of the Bible says the Angel of the Lord appeared to Moses, and that Moses was afraid to look upon God.

What does the version you use say here?

Does it say God the Father appeared to Moses, or the Angel of the Lord.


JLB

 

[JLB]

Of course it was not the Son in the fire.

Did a pagan king write these words in our Bible?

And the scripture can not be broken.


JLB

 

[JLB]

He most likely thought it was an angel or some other heavenly being.

OK, as long as it was "most likely" that's the main thing.

Here is what my Bible says.

...the form of the fourth is like the Son of God. Daniel 3:25


JLB

 

[jocor]

Was Moses seeing God the Father or the Angel of the Lord, in the following verse.


2 And the Angel of the Lord appeared to him in a flame of fire from the midst of a bush. So he looked, and behold, the bush was burning with fire, but the bush was not consumed. 3 Then Moses said, “I will now turn aside and see this great sight, why the bush does not burn.”
4 So when the Lord saw that he turned aside to look, God called to him from the midst of the bush and said, “Moses, Moses!”

And he said, “Here I am.”

5 Then He said, “Do not draw near this place. Take your sandals off your feet, for the place where you stand is holy ground.” 6 Moreover He said, “I am the God of your father—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.” And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look upon God. Exodus 3:2-6


This version of the Bible says the Angel of the Lord appeared to Moses, and that Moses was afraid to look upon God.

What does the version you use say here?

Does it say God the Father appeared to Moses, or the Angel of the Lord.


JLB

The angel of the LORD. Why do you ask?

 

[jocor]

OK, as long as it was "most likely" that's the main thing.

Here is what my Bible says.

...the form of the fourth is like the Son of God. Daniel 3:25


JLB

The Hebrew can easily be translated, "the form of the fourth was like a son of the gods" as all the following versions do:

New International Version
He said, "Look! I see four men walking around in the fire, unbound and unharmed, and the fourth looks like a son of the gods."

New Living Translation
"Look!" Nebuchadnezzar shouted. "I see four men, unbound, walking around in the fire unharmed! And the fourth looks like a god!"

English Standard Version
He answered and said, “But I see four men unbound, walking in the midst of the fire, and they are not hurt; and the appearance of the fourth is like a son of the gods.”

New American Standard Bible
He said, "Look! I see four men loosed and walking about in the midst of the fire without harm, and the appearance of the fourth is like a son of the gods!"

Holman Christian Standard Bible
He exclaimed, "Look! I see four men, not tied, walking around in the fire unharmed; and the fourth looks like a son of the gods."

International Standard Version
"Look!" he told them, "I see four men walking untied and unharmed in the middle of the fire, and the appearance of the fourth resembles a divine being."

NET Bible
He answered, "But I see four men, untied and walking around in the midst of the fire! No harm has come to them! And the appearance of the fourth is like that of a god!"

GOD'S WORD® Translation
The king replied, "But look, I see four men. They're untied, walking in the middle of the fire, and unharmed. The fourth one looks like a son of the gods."

JPS Tanakh 1917
He answered and said: 'Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the appearance of the fourth is like a son of the gods.'

New American Standard 1977
He answered and said, “Look! I see four men loosed and walking about in the midst of the fire without harm, and the appearance of the fourth is like a son of the gods!”

King James 2000 Bible
He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they are not hurt; and the form of the fourth is like a son of the gods.

American Standard Version
He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the aspect of the fourth is like a son of the gods.

English Revised Version
He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the aspect of the fourth is like a son of the gods.

World English Bible
He answered, Look, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they are unharmed; and the aspect of the fourth is like a son of the gods.

Young's Literal Translation
He answered and hath said, 'Lo, I am seeing four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the appearance of the fourth is like to a son of the gods.'