Bible Study Whom do I need to pray to for being saved? Either Jehovah or Jesus?

[jocor]

And the Angel of the Lord appeared to him in a flame of fire from the midst of a bush.
And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look upon God. Exodus 3:2,6

and again

21 When the Angel of the Lord appeared no more to Manoah and his wife, then Manoah knew that He was the Angel of the Lord.
22 And Manoah said to his wife, “We shall surely die, because we have seen God!”
Judges 13:21-22

and again

11 And the Angel of the Lord said to her:
“Behold, you are with child, and you shall bear a son.
You shall call his name Ishmael, because the Lord has heard your affliction.
12 He shall be a wild man; his hand shall be against every man,
And every man’s hand against him. and he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren.”
13 Then she called the name of the Lord who spoke to her, You-Are-the-God-Who-Sees; for she said, “Have I also here seen Him who sees me?” Genesis 16:11-13


“By the mouth of two or three witnesses every word shall be established.” 2 Corinthians 13:1

Please point to my interpretation in this post.

JLB

You didn't give your interpretation, only verses. These verses are to be understood in the same way as the account of Jacob's wrestling.

Gen 32:24 And Jacob was left alone; and there wrestled a man with him until the breaking of the day.
Gen 32:25 And when he saw that he prevailed not against him, he touched the hollow of his thigh; and the hollow of Jacob's thigh was out of joint, as he wrestled with him.
Gen 32:26 And he said, Let me go, for the day breaketh. And he said, I will not let thee go, except thou bless me.
Gen 32:27 And he said unto him, What is thy name? And he said, Jacob.
Gen 32:28 And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed.
Gen 32:29 And Jacob asked him, and said, Tell me, I pray thee, thy name. And he said, Wherefore is it that thou dost ask after my name? And he blessed him there.
Gen 32:30 And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.​

Was Jacob physically wrestling with God? Of course not! He was spiritually wrestling with God because he was wrestling the God's messenger / angel.

Hosea 12:3-4 He took his brother by the heel in the womb, and by his strength he had power with God:​

Yea, he had power over the angel, and prevailed: he wept, and made supplication unto him: he found him in Bethel, and there he spake with us;

Jacob, Moses, Manoah and Hagar can all rightly say they saw God even though they were only seeing an angel because the angel is YHWH's shaliach or representative/agent. They were not literally seeing God.

In Exodus 2:6, we know the "God" he saw was the Father based on Acts 3:13:

"The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his Son Yeshua; ..."

Since the God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob is Yeshua's Father, then the God that Moses saw was the Father. Yet, we have several verses telling us that no man has ever seen God. You told me those verses refer to not seeing the Father. So how did Moses see the Father?

 

[jocor]

(Post removed. Off topic. Arguing against the rules of this forum. Obadiah.)

 

[jocor]

(Post removed. You may not add your own words to quoted scripture. Obadiah)

 

[JLB]

You didn't give your interpretation, only verses.

Yes, I gave no interpretation, only the scriptures that plainly show us the Angel of the Lord was referred to as God in the Old Testament, by Moses Himself, and other people as well, who were independent of Moses and didn't know him, yet Moses wrote the account of Genesis and his personal account in Exodus.

Three different scriptures referring to three different manifestations of the Angel of the Lord being referred to as God.

And the Angel of the Lord appeared to him in a flame of fire from the midst of a bush.
And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look upon God. Exodus 3:2,6

and again

21 When the Angel of the Lord appeared no more to Manoah and his wife, then Manoah knew that He was the Angel of the Lord.
22 And Manoah said to his wife, “We shall surely die, because we have seen God!”
Judges 13:21-22

and again

11 And the Angel of the Lord said to her:
“Behold, you are with child, and you shall bear a son.
You shall call his name Ishmael, because the Lord has heard your affliction.
12 He shall be a wild man; his hand shall be against every man,
And every man’s hand against him. and he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren.”
13 Then she called the name of the Lord who spoke to her, You-Are-the-God-Who-Sees; for she said, “Have I also here seen Him who sees me?” Genesis 16:11-13


“By the mouth of two or three witnesses every word shall be established.” 2 Corinthians 13:1


Then The Lord Himself, the Spirit of Christ, through Zechariah also refers to the Angel of the Lord as God.

In that day the Lord will defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; the one who is feeble among them in that day shall be like David, and the house of David shall be like God, like the Angel of the Lord before them. Zechariah 12:8


Then the writer of the book of Hebrews weighs in on the subject:

For to which of the angels did He ever say: “You are My Son, today I have begotten You”?

and again -

But to the Son He says: “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
Hebrews 1:5,8


JLB

 

[JLB]

I have told you several times that I ONLY use the KJV, but I restore the true names that men removed. If I choose to cite a different version, I identify the version.

What does it matter anyone? Are you denying that those two text really say "YHWH" instead of "the Lord"?

Using scripture is what a Bible study is all about, and is required in this Forum.

Labeling the Version you use is part of the TOS and is required for this Forum.

TOS 2.2 -

Only scripture from accepted Christian bibles will be allowed to be posted on this board.

Using the KJV then replacing words from that translation with other names or words is not using an excepted version, but is "making up" your own version.

Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”
Acts 4:12

 

[jocor]

Only scripture from accepted Christian bibles will be allowed to be posted on this board.

Here are some other versions showing the Tetragrammaton "YHWH" appears in the Hebrew text by translating it "Jehovah", "the LORD" or "Yahweh".

Gen 4:1 And the man knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man with the help of Jehovah. ASV
Gen 4:1 And the man knew Eve his wife, and she conceiveth and beareth Cain, and saith, `I have gotten a man by Jehovah;' YLT
Gen 4:1 And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the LORD. KJV
Gen 4:1 Now the man had relations with his wife Eve, and she conceived and gave birth to Cain, and she said, "I have gotten a manchild with the help of the LORD." NASB
Gen 4:1 Adam made love to his wife Eve, and she became pregnant and gave birth to Cain. She said, "With the help of the LORD I have brought forth a man." NIV
Gen 4:1 Adam was intimate with his wife Eve, and she conceived and gave birth to Cain. She said, "I have had a male child with the LORD's help." Holman Christian Standard Bible
Gen 4:1 The man had intercourse with his wife Eve, and she conceived and gave birth to Cain. 'I have acquired a man with the help of Yahweh,' she said. The New Jerusalem Bible (Catholic)
​

From your post #224, you wrote:

And the Angel of the Lord appeared to him in a flame of fire from the midst of a bush.
And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look upon God. Exodus 3:2,6

Whatever version you used failed to make the reader aware that the Tetragrammaton (YHWH) is used in that text. Therefore, it is a version that keeps people in ignorance.

 

[Randy]

Hi Randy,

I'm not one to post back and forth since we all have our beliefs and who am I to convince anyone?
I do like to understand though.

Are you distinguishing between The Son, the second person of the Trinity
and Jesus? - who indeed was the first begotten of the Father.

Can it be as simple as this??

Or are you saying that The Father existed first, and THEN He created the Son, second person of the Trinity.

It's this sentence of yours that's confusing me:
No, He has always been the Son. (firstborn -at some point in history before the world began)

You say He has ALWAYS been the Son and then in parenthesis you say he was the FIRSTBORN at some point in history. This sounds like a conflicting statement.

Jesus called God the Father while on earth because He was also a man and was referring to God as we all would. Jesus Himself stated that His powers here were limited because it was not for Him to know all things.

in John 8.58 does He not state "Before Abraham was, I AM". The same I AM as announced to Moses in Exodus 3:14.

IOW, are you saying that you can be christian and not be trinitarian? I'm sorry for my ignorance.

Thanks for your reply
Wondering

Gods Firstborn would be a being and such a being would make such a statement, (Before Abraham was I am) , in reply to you know Abraham your not yet 50 years old.

Yes, I am stating there was a time Jesus was not. He is Gods firstborn. I have the Spirit of Christ in me. I tell you ask Him (Jesus)

"Dear Lord are you Gods firstborn"

You can ask Jesus anything without fear.

Randy

 

[Randy]

Brother, you are going to have to use scripture for all these statements you made.

And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn. Zechariah 12:10

This scriptures shows us the Spirit of Christ is the one speaking through Zechariah.
1 Peter 1:11

Christ Jesus is the One pouring out His Spirit of Grace upon Jerusalem.

The Spirit of Christ spoke these words in Zechariah 12:1 - Thus says the Lord, who stretches out the heavens, lays the foundation of the earth, and forms the spirit of man within him:

The inhabitants of Israel will see Him coming from Heaven and mourn -

10 “And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn. 11 In that day there shall be a great mourning in Jerusalem, like the mourning at Hadad Rimmon in the plain of Megiddo.12 And the land shall mourn, every family by itself: the family of the house of David by itself, and their wives by themselves; the family of the house of Nathan by itself, and their wives by themselves; 13 the family of the house of Levi by itself, and their wives by themselves; the family of Shimei by itself, and their wives by themselves; 14 all the families that remain, every family by itself, and their wives by themselves. Zechariah 12:10-14

This is what Jesus taught His disciples on the Mount of Olives, from Zechariah.

30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. Matthew 24:30


JLB

Jesus stated to His disciples to wait for the "Fathers" promise. You want scripture read acts 2 as I posted. The Spirit Jesus sent He received form the Father.

Jesus=>Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work.
Jesus=> I haven't spoken on my own authority. Instead, the Father who sent me has himself commanded me what to say and how to speak.

Hebrews=>In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways,2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe.


Rev=>The revelation from Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John,2 who testifies to everything he saw—that is, the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Jesus is the word of the FATHER (God)
Randy

 

[JLB]

Here are some other versions showing the Tetragrammaton "YHWH" appears in the Hebrew text by translating it "Jehovah", "the LORD" or "Yahweh".

Gen 4:1 And the man knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man with the help of Jehovah. ASV
Gen 4:1 And the man knew Eve his wife, and she conceiveth and beareth Cain, and saith, `I have gotten a man by Jehovah;' YLT
Gen 4:1 And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the LORD. KJV
Gen 4:1 Now the man had relations with his wife Eve, and she conceived and gave birth to Cain, and she said, "I have gotten a manchild with the help of the LORD." NASB
Gen 4:1 Adam made love to his wife Eve, and she became pregnant and gave birth to Cain. She said, "With the help of the LORD I have brought forth a man." NIV
Gen 4:1 Adam was intimate with his wife Eve, and she conceived and gave birth to Cain. She said, "I have had a male child with the LORD's help." Holman Christian Standard Bible
Gen 4:1 The man had intercourse with his wife Eve, and she conceived and gave birth to Cain. 'I have acquired a man with the help of Yahweh,' she said. The New Jerusalem Bible (Catholic)

Thanks for sharing those.

None of them contained YHWH?

Gen 4:1 And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the LORD. KJV


Jesus is the name of the LORD.



JLB

 

[JLB]

And the Angel of the Lord appeared to him in a flame of fire from the midst of a bush.
And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look upon God. Exodus 3:2,6

Whatever version you used failed to make the reader aware that the Tetragrammaton (YHWH) is used in that text. Therefore, it is a version that keeps people in ignorance.

From my signature that appears on every post I make.

All scripture is quoted from the NKJV, unless otherwise noted.


But to the Son He says: “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; a scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
Hebrews 1:8




JLB

 

[jocor]

Thanks for sharing those.

None of them contained YHWH?

Gen 4:1 And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the LORD. KJV


Jesus is the name of the LORD.



JLB

What is it that you are trying to prove? That Eve said, "I have gotten a man from Jesus"??????

 

[jocor]

From my signature that appears on every post I make.

All scripture is quoted from the NKJV, unless otherwise noted.

This is from your post #224:

And the Angel of the Lord appeared to him in a flame of fire from the midst of a bush.
And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look upon God. Exodus 3:2,6

You didn't note a different version was used so this is how you quoted the NKJV.

I went to the Blue Letter Bible site and the Bible Gateway site. Both quote Ex 3:2 from the NKJV as follows:

2 And the Angel of the LORD appeared to him in a flame of fire from the midst of a bush. So he looked, and behold, the bush was burning with fire, but the bush was not consumed.
​

Therefore, unless you are using some other site, you removed "LORD" and replaced it with "Lord".

I'm going to assume the former is true, so please verify your NKJV source.

 

[JLB]

And the Angel of the Lord appeared to him in a flame of fire from the midst of a bush.
And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look upon God. Exodus 3:2,6

Whatever version you used failed to make the reader aware that the Tetragrammaton (YHWH) is used in that text. Therefore, it is a version that keeps people in ignorance.

I think the reader can read these words from Exodus 3 and understand -


Moses said... when I come to the children of Israel and say to them, ‘The God of your fathers has sent me to you,’ and they say to me, ‘What is His name?’

“Thus you shall say to the children of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you.’”

The Angel of the Lord says His Name is I AM!

Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”


Jesus is YHWH, the Lord God.



JLB

 

[JLB]

What is it that you are trying to prove? That Eve said, "I have gotten a man from Jesus"??????

Yes, the Lord Jesus Christ created all things.

For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. Colossians 1:16

And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.
Genesis 2:7

For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. Romans 8:2

The breath of life is the Spirit of Life.

The Spirit of Life is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

In our great God and Savior Jesus Christ. Titus 2:13


JLB

 

[JLB]

This is from your post #224:

And the Angel of the Lord appeared to him in a flame of fire from the midst of a bush.
And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look upon God. Exodus 3:2,6

You didn't note a different version was used so this is how you quoted the NKJV.

I went to the Blue Letter Bible site and the Bible Gateway site. Both quote Ex 3:2 from the NKJV as follows:

2 And the Angel of the LORD appeared to him in a flame of fire from the midst of a bush. So he looked, and behold, the bush was burning with fire, but the bush was not consumed.
​

Therefore, unless you are using some other site, you removed "LORD" and replaced it with "Lord".

I'm going to assume the former is true, so please verify your NKJV source.

This is copied and pasted from Bible Gateway:

And the Angel of the Lord appeared to him in a flame of fire from the midst of a bush.
So when the Lord saw that he turned aside to look, God called to him from the midst of the bush and said, “Moses, Moses!”
6 Moreover He said, “I am the God of your father—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.” And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look upon God. Exodus 3:2,4,6

The Angel of the Lord said His Name to Moses, was I AM.

“Thus you shall say to the children of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you.’” Exodus 3:14


JLB

 

[jocor]

Yes, the Lord Jesus Christ created all things.

For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. Colossians 1:16

And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.
Genesis 2:7

For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. Romans 8:2

The breath of life is the Spirit of Life.

The Spirit of Life is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

In our great God and Savior Jesus Christ. Titus 2:13


JLB

I didn't ask you who the Creator is. I asked you what Eve said. I'll ask again in a different way. What name came out of Eve's mouth in Gen 4:1? "I have gotten a man from _________________________." I don't want the English translation or any substitute English word. What did she actually say? Transliterate it into English as best you can.

 

[jocor]

This is copied and pasted from Bible Gateway:

And the Angel of the Lord appeared to him in a flame of fire from the midst of a bush.
So when the Lord saw that he turned aside to look, God called to him from the midst of the bush and said, “Moses, Moses!”
6 Moreover He said, “I am the God of your father—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.” And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look upon God. Exodus 3:2,4,6

The Angel of the Lord said His Name to Moses, was I AM.

“Thus you shall say to the children of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you.’” Exodus 3:14


JLB

Go back and look at it again on Bible Gateway. It reads, "LORD", but it pastes as "Lord". I know that for a fact because it happened to me. Why that happens, I do not know, but it sure is deceiving.

 

[JLB]

Go back and look at it again on Bible Gateway. It reads, "LORD", but it pastes as "Lord". I know that for a fact because it happened to me. Why that happens, I do not know, but it sure is deceiving.

I didn't ask you who the Creator is. I asked you what Eve said. I'll ask again in a different way. What name came out of Eve's mouth in Gen 4:1? "I have gotten a man from _________________________." I don't want the English translation or any substitute English word. What did she actually say? Transliterate it into English as best you can.

The Lord.

Eve said; I have gotten a man from the Lord.

Now what is the Name of the Lord we call on for salvation?

For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.”

What is His Name?


JLB

 

[jocor]

The Lord.

Eve said; I have gotten a man from the Lord.

Now what is the Name of the Lord we call on for salvation?

For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.”

What is His Name?


JLB

I knew you wouldn't give me a straight answer. Maybe tomorrow, after you sleep on it, you can give an honest answer to the name Eve spoke back to her husband. It really is a simple question that does not require a veiled answer.

 

[Randy]

From my signature that appears on every post I make.

All scripture is quoted from the NKJV, unless otherwise noted.


But to the Son He says: “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; a scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
Hebrews 1:8




JLB

Jesus=>To the one who is victorious, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I was victorious and sat down with my Father on his throne.

The Father has glorified the Son and in the Son the Father is glorified.

Of David. A psalm. The LORD says to my lord: "Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet."

Hebrews=>To which of the angels did God ever say, "Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet"?

So the writer of Hebrews has taken pain to state the name Jesus inherited is above the angels of God. It is quite clear that all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell IN Him. Jesus=>It is the Father in me......

Jesus is ALL that the Father is. Therefore Jesus is called both God and Son. But He himself is firstborn.
Randy