Bible Study Whom do I need to pray to for being saved? Either Jehovah or Jesus?

[jocor]

And what, exactly do you mean when you say "elohim" (with a lower case "e")?

As Yeshua said, the "ONLY true Elohim" is his Father (John 17:3). All others, including himself, are lesser "elohim". If I use a capital "E", then it does not distinguish the Father from the Son.

 

[Jim Parker]

As Yeshua said, the "ONLY true Elohim" is his Father (John 17:3). All others, including himself, are lesser "elohim". If I use a capital "E", then it does not distinguish the Father from the Son.

Jhn 17:3 (KJV) And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

John did not write that the father was the only true "Elohim." The Gospel of John is written in Greek. So, John said "the only true THEOS." You are attempting to force your meaning into the scripture by replacing the word which was written with another word that was not used but which suits your notions.

You have inserted the word "Elohim" where it doesn't belong.

And you have said that Jesus is a "lesser" elohim; that the eternal Word and Son of God, is a lesser being than the Father. That is the neo-Platonist heresy of Arius. It is neither Biblical nor historic Christianity. It is a reflection of the Gnostic idea of the Word being an emanation from the Monad. (Father)

John stated that Jesus was the Word made flesh (John 1:14) and the the Word was God. The grammatical structure of John's statement, "and the Word was God" (john 1:1) is properly understood as an equivalency because both "Logos" and "Theos" are in the nominative case. ( καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος ) The Logos cannot be both God and less than God at the same time.

That Jesus is a "lesser" god than the Father is a "different Gospel" from what the Bible teaches and which the Church specifically rejected as heresy.


iakov the fool

 

[jocor]

Jhn 17:3 (KJV) And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

John did not write that the father was the only true "Elohim." The Gospel of John is written in Greek. So, John said "the only true THEOS." You are attempting to force your meaning into the scripture by replacing the word which was written with another word that was not used but which suits your notions.

You have inserted the word "Elohim" where it doesn't belong.

Theos and Elohim are used the same way. They are both used of beings other than the only true God.
Also, although the copies of the Gospel of John we have are in Greek, I highly doubt Yeshua was praying in Greek to His Father. He would have said "Elohim".

And you have said that Jesus is a "lesser" elohim; that the eternal Word and Son of God, is a lesser being than the Father. That is the neo-Platonist heresy of Arius. It is neither Biblical nor historic Christianity. It is a reflection of the Gnostic idea of the Word being an emanation from the Monad. (Father)

John stated that Jesus was the Word made flesh (John 1:14) and the the Word was God. The grammatical structure of John's statement, "and the Word was God" (john 1:1) is properly understood as an equivalency because both "Logos" and "Theos" are in the nominative case. ( καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος ) The Logos cannot be both God and less than God at the same time.

That Jesus is a "lesser" god than the Father is a "different Gospel" from what the Bible teaches and which the Church specifically rejected as heresy.


iakov the fool

Sorry, but I am not permitted to discuss John 1.

 

[JLB]

"Holy One" is a title shared by the Father and the Son. The Father is the "Holy One of Israel" and the Son is the "Holy One of God (Father YHWH)" (Mark 1:24)

Holy One is a direct reference to YHWH.

The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the God of our fathers, glorified His Servant Jesus, whom you delivered up and denied in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let Him go. 14 But you denied the Holy One and the Just, and asked for a murderer to be granted to you, Acts 3:13-14

The Holy One is what Jesus is referred to here in the verse you Quoted.

Then I would still have comfort;
Though in anguish I would exult,
He will not spare;
For I have not concealed the words of the Holy One.
Job 6:10


As you stated before, Jesus is the King of Israel.

For the Lord is our defence; and the Holy One of Israel is our king. Psalm 89:19

“To whom then will you liken Me,
Or to whom shall I be equal?” says the Holy One.
Lift up your eyes on high,
And see who has created these things,
Who brings out their host by number;
He calls them all by name,
By the greatness of His might
And the strength of His power;
Not one is missing.
Why do you say, O Jacob,
And speak, O Israel:
“My way is hidden from the Lord,
And my just claim is passed over by my God”?
Have you not known?
Have you not heard?
The everlasting God, the Lord,
The Creator of the ends of the earth,
Neither faints nor is weary.
His understanding is unsearchable.
Isaiah 40:25-28

Are You not from everlasting,
O Lord my God, my Holy One?
We shall not die.
O Lord, You have appointed them for judgment;
O Rock, You have marked them for correction.
Habakkuk 1:12
[Rock is another reference to Christ.]

God came from Teman,
The Holy One from Mount Paran. Selah
His glory covered the heavens,
And the earth was full of His praise.
Habakkuk 3:3


It's clear to anyone who is wanting to see the truth.

Jesus is the Holy One.
The Holy One is YHWH.
Jesus is YHWH, the Lord God.


But to the Son He says:

“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
Hebrews 1:8


JLB

 

[JLB]

Titus 2:13 reads quite differently in many other versions. The NASB, for example, reads, "looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus"

How is "great God and Savior Jesus Christ", different from "great God and Savior Jesus Christ"?


JLB

 

[Jim Parker]

Theos and Elohim are used the same way. They are both used of beings other than the only true God.

According to WHOM????

The word used throughout the NT for "God" is "Theos."
They are not "lesser beings" "other than the only true God."

What you are preaching is not Biblical or Historical Christianity.

 

[Jim Parker]

Sorry, but I am not permitted to discuss John 1.

Because your views would not be Biblically or historically Christian, right?

Yeah, right I got that.

It's ok. I've heard 'em all, anyway.

 

[jocor]

Jesus is the Holy One.
The Holy One is YHWH.
Jesus is YHWH, the Lord God.

JLB

OK JLB. Let's use your flawed logic.

Jesus is YHWH's "anointed" (Hebrew - maschiach). (Psalm 2:2)
Cyrus is YHWH's "anointed" (Hebrew - maschiach). (Isaiah 45:1)
Jesus is Cyrus.

Shared titles do not make two beings one and the same being. The Father (YHWH) is the "Holy One" of Israel and His Son is the "Holy One" of God (YHWH).

Since it is a fact that Yeshua is the "Holy one of God" (Mark 1:24), that means there is a God who possesses Yeshua as His Holy one. That God would be Yeshua's God (Mt 27:46; John 20:17; Rev 3:12).

 

[jocor]

How is "great God and Savior Jesus Christ", different from "great God and Savior Jesus Christ"?


JLB

NASB - "looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus"
KJV - "Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

One difference is the comma after "Savior" in the NASB. Another difference is that, in the KJV, it is the "great God and Savior" that is appearing, but in the NASB, it is the "glory of the great God and Savior" that is appearing.

As in Titus 2:11, the "grace of God" is Yeshua. The "glory of our God and Savior" is Yeshua.

Tit 2:13 προσδεχομενοι G4327(G5740)[AWAITING] την G3588[THE] μακαριαν G3107[BLESSED] ελπιδα G1680[HOPE] και G2532[AND] επιφανειαν G2015[APPEARING] της G3588[OF THE] δοξης G1391 του G3588[GLORY] μεγαλου G3173[GREAT] θεου G2316[GOD] και G2532[AND] σωτηρος G4990[SAVIOUR] ημων G2257[OF OUR] ιησου G2424[JESUS] χριστου G5547[CHRIST;]

 

[jocor]

According to WHOM????

The word used throughout the NT for "God" is "Theos."
They are not "lesser beings" "other than the only true God."

What you are preaching is not Biblical or Historical Christianity.

It is Biblical, but it is not Historical Christianity.

"Theos" when applied to the only true God does not denote a lesser being. When applied to others besides the only true God, it denotes a lesser being as in the following verses (there are many more) where the bold word is "theos" or a form of it;

John 10:34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
John 10:35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;

Act 7:43 Yea, ye took up the tabernacle of Moloch, and the star of your god Remphan, figures which ye made to worship them: and I will carry you away beyond Babylon.

2Co 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them​

 

[jocor]

Because your views would not be Biblically or historically Christian, right?

Yeah, right I got that.

It's ok. I've heard 'em all, anyway.

Why do you mock me concerning my reason for not explaining John 1? Do you think I am lying about this even though I know full well that all liars will be thrown in the Lake of Fire?

 

[JLB]

NASB - "looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus"
KJV - "Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

One difference is the comma after "Savior" in the NASB. Another difference is that, in the KJV, it is the "great God and Savior" that is

You will have to explain what a comma has to do with Jesus being our great God and Savior.

Both versions contain this phrase:

appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus" - NASB
appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; KJV

Here are some others for you to compare -

appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, NKJV
the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, NIV
manifestation of the glory of our great God and Saviour Jesus Christ, YLT
appearing of the glory of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; ASV
appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, RSV

If you are unsure who will be appearing at the end of the age, here are some helpful verse's -

so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation. Hebrews 9:29

I charge you therefore before God and the Lord Jesus Christ, who will judge the living and the dead at His appearing and His kingdom:
2 Timothy 4:1

that you keep this commandment without spot, blameless until our Lord Jesus Christ’s appearing, 1 Timothy 6:14


JLB

 

[JLB]

Why do you mock me concerning my reason for not explaining John 1? Do you think I am lying about this even though I know full well that all liars will be thrown in the Lake of Fire?

I think you have been grossly mis-informed about who Jesus Christ is, and you are misleading people to deny Jesus as Lord, the Lord God of the Bible.

Thus the Lord my God will come, and all the saints with You. Zechariah 14:5

You have never offered any explanation about this scripture showing that it's the lord God who will come with the saints.

Peter says it was the Spirit of christ who spoke these words through the prophet Zechariah.

Of this salvation the prophets have inquired and searched carefully, who prophesied of the grace that would come to you, searching what, or what manner of time, the Spirit of Christ who was in them was indicating when He testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow. 1 Peter 1:10-11

The Spirit of Christ spoke these words also -

For I am the Lord your God, The Holy One of Israel, your Savior; Isaiah 43:3

The Holy Spirit moved upon Paul to write these words -

looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,

and these -

But to the Son He says:

“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
Hebrews 1:8



JLB

 

[JLB]

Why do you mock me concerning my reason for not explaining John 1? Do you think I am lying about this even though I know full well that all liars will be thrown in the Lake of Fire?

Jesus is called the First and the Last, which is a direct reference to YHWH.


12 “And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work. 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last.” Revelation 22:12



JLB

 

[Jim Parker]

Jesus is the Holy One.
The Holy One is YHWH.
Jesus is YHWH, the Lord God.

ah

 

[Jim Parker]

Why do you mock me concerning my reason for not explaining John 1? Do you think I am lying about this even though I know full well that all liars will be thrown in the Lake of Fire?

I said "I've heard them all" because I have heard them all. I've heard all the heretical ideas that keep getting new paint jobs and re-issued as the latest and greatest.

You have as much as admitted that your view is heresy by stating that the Logos, the Son, is a lesser being than the "one true God." That's the same garbage that Arius came up with in the 2nd century. Why rehash it again?

I'm not mocking you. I'm just stating that your camouflaged "deep truths" are the same trash that was taken out at the council of Nicaea. And you have verified that you espousing a heretical view of Christ as a "lesser being than the one true God" by your admission that you think you would be banned from the forum for promulgating a non-Biblical, non-historical Christianity if you stated the belief that you espouse openly and clearly.

I don't think you're lying. I think you've chosen to believe a heresy and you are trying to peddle that heresy here.

You've made your beliefs clear. WHy should I bother with them any further. I don't believe the moon is made of green cheese and I don't believe that the Logos is a "lesser being" than the "only true God". The Church, based on the scriptures, teaches that He is not. The Church is the "pillar and foundation of truth" (1 TI 3:15) and you are not.

iakov the fool

 

[JLB]

I don't think you're lying. I think you've chosen to believe a heresy and you are trying to peddle that heresy here.

 

[JLB]

ah

Very deep brother.

 

[Randy]

I agree!

“You are worthy, O Lord,
To receive glory and honor and power;
For You created all things,[Jesus] And by Your will they exist [The Father] and were created.[The Holy Spirit]”


JLB

But when God brought the firstborn into the world did He not also command His angels to bow to Him? Are the angels of God bowing to a man? Also wasn't the Son also found worthy by God of Honor and power and glory in Rev?

Jesus has been granted by the Father to have life in Himself and to give such life to anyone He is pleased to give it. The guy on the cross next to Jesus was granted eternal life by Jesus. So I am not sure why there is a debate in who to ask for salvation. Jesus clearly has a place on His Fathers throne and the authority to give life. In fact those that listen and learn from the Father will go to the Son so God is the guilty party in people going to Jesus for life. The work of God is to believe in the One God sent. That is the Fathers will.

 

[Jim Parker]

MY: "ah"

Very deep brother.

Here's the rest: Choo!