No one is going to suspend you if you use scripture to support your position from a legitimate version of the bible.
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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
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Bible Study Whom do I need to pray to for being saved? Either Jehovah or Jesus?
- Thread starter Tracy J. Harper
- Start date
No one is going to suspend you if you use scripture to support your position from a legitimate version of the bible.
MY: "ah"
Here's the rest: Choo!
ah soooo. :nod
J
jocor
Guest
If you will notice, all the versions you cited use the same basic translation as the NASB, except the NKJV. Thanks for the additional evidence in favor of my view. Yeshua Messiah is the "glory of our great God and Savior". Since the translators of the various versions cannot agree on how the Greek should be translated, I would not base my doctrinal beliefs on such a verse.
I know who is appearing; Yeshua, who is the glory of God.
J
jocor
Guest
I never said the "logos" is a lesser being than the one true God and I do not believe as Arius did. You believe more like Arius did than I do.
That is not what I think. It is what I know to be a fact. BTW, heretical does not mean wrong, but simply at odds with the generally accepted belief.
I did not mean "lying" about my beliefs, but lying about not being allowed to express them on this forum without incurring a penalty and possible suspension as per the ToS.
What "Church" would that be? The Roman Catholic Church? The Protestant Churches? Those called out of the world before grievous wolves entered in not sparing the flock? Those called out after the wolves did their damage? I am a called out disciple of Yeshua and therefore part of the "pillar and foundation of truth" in spite of your false judgment of me.
GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
Hi Tracy
Got here late. But I have two questions:
1. Are we Christians living under the Old Covenant (Mosaic) or under the New Covenant?
Or, to put it another way: Are we living under The Law or are we living under Grace?
2. Who went to the cross to save you?
Also, you say the Father is greater than the Son. The Father and The Son are One. The Son and the Holy Spirit are One. The Father and the Holy Spirit are One. God is ONE. Each person of the Trinity has His own attributes, however, each one is equally God. So it's not correct to say that the Father is more than The Son.
See Colossians 1:19 "for it was the father's good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him".
All of God's nature is in each person of the Trinity. Not a concept we can really grasp. Most Christians pray to God and/or Jesus - which is the same thing.
It's also right to pray to the Holy Spirit. He kind of gets forgotten.
Wondering
Every single translation says "great God and Savior Jesus Christ".
appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, NKJV
the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, NIV
manifestation of the glory of our great God and Saviour Jesus Christ, YLT
appearing of the glory of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; ASV
appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, RSV
It's clear that all the translators agree that Jesus Christ is our great God and Savior.
30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. Matthew 24:30
JLB
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Jim Parker
Member
Yeah, you did. You said that the name "elohim" is the name appropriate for the Logos and other lesser beings.
Now you're trying to split hairs over the exact words you used. I don't play that game. I didn't let my kids get away with that game. And, if you want to be taken seriously, you'll knock it off.
Anyway, I've got your number. You are peddling heretical, non-Biblical, non historic Christian views of Christ.
But I'm not buying. Neither is anyone else.
Jhn 17:3 (KJV) And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
The Logos cannot be both God and less than God at the same time.
Jesus can be all that the Father is and also Gods firstborn. Because the fullness of God was pleased to dwell in Him. Jesus=>It is the Father in me doing His work. Jesus=>The words I speak are not my own they belong to the Father. Ref:Word of God=Word of the Father
The creation was made through the Son. So Jesus was with the Father in the beginning (His God and Father) And Jesus is God in context that all the fullness of God indwells Him. The image of the invisible God and the exact representation of Gods being. But He has always been the Son and His God is our God and His Father is our Father. Jesus stated the Father is greater then Him. Did you believe HIM?
Is Jesus God?
He never dies.
Yes, He is all that the Father is.
No, He has always been the Son (firstborn at some point in history before the world began)
As a Son Jesus has His own spirit (not divine as no God will be formed after the Father) Jesus=>"Father into your hands I commit my spirit"
The divinity in the Son is the fullness of God the Father. Jesus is not that fullness.
Became flesh? Yes in that a body was prepared for Him. Its clear to me the Son that was (His spirit) was in the tent of the body that God prepared for Him. Jesus was not emptied of the Father.
The Holy Spirit or Spirit of the Sovereign Lord or Spirit of truth is the Spirit God claims as His own and Gods very own Spirit is Devine as God is Spirit. Jesus does not make that claim.
Randy
GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
You're sounding like a JW. It's difficult to make the distinction.
Do you believe Jesus was fully God and fully man?
Are you just saying He didn't have full power?
As a man, he cried over Jerusalem.
As God He raised Lazarus.
When we try to understand something that is not understandable, I feel we could stray and get into murky territory.
Either Jesus was God or He wasn't. Would you agree to this? Make it simple...
Wondering
J
jocor
Guest
My comment was based on your comment where you referred back to John 1 in post#142 where you wrote:
John stated that Jesus was the Word made flesh (John 1:14) and the the Word was God. The grammatical structure of John's statement, "and the Word was God" (john 1:1) is properly understood as an equivalency because both "Logos" and "Theos" are in the nominative case. ( καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος ) The Logos cannot be both God and less than God at the same time.
So when I wrote, "I never said the "logos" is a lesser being than the one true God", I did so because I do not believe the "logos" in John 1:1 is the Son. To me, based on the context, the logos in that verse is a thing, not a being.
So now that I clarified so you can understand what I meant, feel free to apologize about your false accusations and treating me like a child. I don't play games when it comes to dealing with important subjects as this. You would also do well to not be so hasty and judgmental. You do not fully know or understand my beliefs. You get snip its here and there, but you cannot see the whole picture. And no, you have not seen enough to make such a condemning statement as, "You are peddling ... non-Biblical, ... views of Christ."
GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
Hello jocor,
I was interested in what you said here:
So when I wrote, "I never said the "logos" is a lesser being than the one true God", I did so because I do not believe the "logos" in John 1:1 is the Son. To me, based on the context, the logos in that verse is a thing, not a being.
I've never heard the logos being referred to as a "thing" before. Although, I do understand about the "word" being a thing and not a person.
But how would you explain this word or thing being referred to as God? Can God be a thing?
And the Word was with God
And the Word WAS God.
I had read once, but long ago, about how the words spoken by God to create the universe, were, in effect, Jesus. That Jesus, or The Son I should say in this case, IS the spoken word of God. Wish I could remember more - it was very beautiful.
By your avatar, it would seem that you know Hebrew.
Wondering
J
jocor
Guest
Here is a Scriptural example of the "logos" being a "thing".
Psa 33:6 By the word (LXX - logos) of YHWH were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth.
As I understand this verse, Yahweh used "the breath of His mouth" (His spoken words - a thing) to create the heavens and all their host. This agrees perfectly with passages such as Gen.1:3,6,9,11,14,20, and 24, all of which begin, "And Elohim said."
The key to understanding this lies in the word order of John 1:1c. Here is an excerpt from one of the most, if not the most widely used Biblical Greek Grammars (Mounce, William D. Basics of Biblical Greek Grammar. Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan, 2003.)
"As we have said, word order is employed especially for the sake of emphasis. Generally speaking, when a word is thrown to the front of the clause it is done so for emphasis. When a predicate nominative is thrown in front of the verb, by virtue of word order it takes on emphasis. A good illustration of this is John 1:1c. The English versions typically have, 'and the Word was God.' But in Greek, the word order has been reversed. It reads,
καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος
and God was the Word.
We know that "the Word" is the subject because it has the definite article, and we translate it accordingly: 'and the Word was God.' Two questions, both of theological import, should come to mind: (1) why was θεὸς thrown forward? and (2) why does it lack the article? In brief, its emphatic position stresses its essence or quality: 'What God was, the Word was' is how one translation (Revised English Bible) brings out this force. (Parenthesis and bold, jocor's).
καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος
and God was the Word.
We know that "the Word" is the subject because it has the definite article, and we translate it accordingly: 'and the Word was God.' Two questions, both of theological import, should come to mind: (1) why was θεὸς thrown forward? and (2) why does it lack the article? In brief, its emphatic position stresses its essence or quality: 'What God was, the Word was' is how one translation (Revised English Bible) brings out this force. (Parenthesis and bold, jocor's).
In other words, If YHWH our Elohim is holy, so is His word. If YHWH is powerful, so is His word. If YHWH is creative, so is His word. The attributes of the word of YHWH are the same as the attributes of YHWH Himself.
Bold and Red for emphasis.
I agree with some of what you say, However The Spirit of Christ, is the Spirit of the Lord God.
Do you see a difference in:
The Spirit of God
The Holy Spirit
The Spirit of the Lord [Spirit of Christ]
Is One of these not Divine ?
But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. Romans 8:9
The Old Testament prophets were speaking by the Spirit of the Lord. [Spirit of Christ]
Example:
“And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn.
Zechariah 12:10
For I am the Lord your God, The Holy One of Israel, your Savior; Isaiah 43:3
- This was the Lord God [Spirit of Christ] speaking through these two different prophets.
Peter says it this way -
10 Of this salvation the prophets have inquired and searched carefully, who prophesied of the grace that would come to you, 11 searching what, or what manner of time, the Spirit of Christ who was in them was indicating when He testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow.
- These scriptures also indicate the Omnipresence of the spirit of Christ, being in all the Church or all the Old Testament Prophets at the same time, as it is written... I will never leave you nor forsake you.
The Spirit of Christ, The Holy Spirit and the Spirit of God are all Divine and are all God.
God the Father beget God the Son, before the foundation of the world.
Jesus appeared to those in the Old Testament, before He became flesh as The Angel of the Lord, The Lord, God.
Now Moses was tending the flock of Jethro his father-in-law, the priest of Midian. And he led the flock to the back of the desert, and came to Horeb, the mountain of God. 2 And the Angel of the Lord appeared to him in a flame of fire from the midst of a bush. So he looked, and behold, the bush was burning with fire, but the bush was not consumed. 3 Then Moses said, “I will now turn aside and see this great sight, why the bush does not burn.”4 So when the Lord saw that he turned aside to look, God called to him from the midst of the bush and said, “Moses, Moses!”
And he said, “Here I am.”
5 Then He said, “Do not draw near this place. Take your sandals off your feet, for the place where you stand is holy ground.” 6 Moreover He said, “I am the God of your father—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.” And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look upon God...13 Then Moses said to God, “Indeed, when I come to the children of Israel and say to them, ‘The God of your fathers has sent me to you,’ and they say to me, ‘What is His name?’ what shall I say to them?”
14 And God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM.” And He said, “Thus you shall say to the children of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you.’”
Exodus 3:1-6, 13-14
JLB
That would mean His only Begotten Son is God.
God the Son.
Begotten before the foundation of the world.
Which is why we honor the Son as God, just as we honor the Father as God.
22 For the Father judges no one, but has committed all judgment to the Son, 23 that all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him. John 5:22-23
Which is why we read scriptures as this one -
But to the Son He says:
“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
Hebrews 1:8
JLB
GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
Hi JLB
It's all words here and I'm not willing to get too much into this. However, you say something above that cannot be corrrect:
God the Father beget God the Son, before the foundation of the world.
Are you saying God the Father existed first and then He created The Son?
If so, you're saying what the JW say. That God the Father is separate from God the Son.
I've never come across such a discussion regarding the Trinity - it just always has been accepted. I mean, how could we possibly hope to understand it. OTOH, we cannot speak of it in a way that makes it seem as though the persons are separate.
I'm new here and am being exposed to different ideas that are interesting, but are we weaving off course here??
Wondering
JW say God created Jesus.
The scriptures say, Jesus is the only Begotten of the Father.
And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth. John 1:14
In this the love of God was manifested toward us, that God has sent His only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through Him. 1 John 4:9
Did your father beget you or create you ?
Are you separate from your father.
The Angel [Spirit] of the Lord, in the OT is shown to be God. Exodus 3:6
JLB
GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
Jocor,
I don't really see the difference between
And God was the Word
OR
And the Word was God.
in either case God is referred to as "the Word". So again, "Word" as a thing, cannot be God. Unless God is a thing.
This is a new idea for me and I'll have to think on it a bit, but the above sentence is pretty much what I'm going to come up with.
Psalm 33:6, for instance, is referring to God's breath, but what God breathed came into creation, and Jesus created everything and without Him was nothing created. John 1:3. And in Him was life - life is what let's everything be and continue. And so God's breathing and Jesus would seem to me to be one and the same concept. God's breath is not a thing, but a person.
So more than the word order - in which I find no difference to the end meaning - we must adhere, I think, to John's interpretation of The Word - as being The Son, the second person of the Trinity.
Do you not agree. It's interesting, however.
Wondering