Bible Study Whom do I need to pray to for being saved? Either Jehovah or Jesus?

[GodsGrace]

.
Dear Sister wondering, many attempt to put limits on God, but He does know the end from the beginnings. Then just because He knows it He does not cause its effect.
Isa 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

Col 1:15 Who (Jesus) is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature. Some have read into this scripture that Jesus was created, but no, as man He is the firstborn of the new creation we who believe in Him become.

As for God knowing the very ones that do receive Jesus as Savior He plans the new creation to become like His Son if I’m saying it correctly. In Christ God even works in us to will and to do of His good pleasure. (Php 2:13)

Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

The following excerpt from a study I have of Romans by Grace & Glory may help.
http://www.gracegod.com/Study Books/Romans1.pdf
“Whom He did predestinate, them He also called: and whom He called, them He also justified: and whom He justified, them He, also glorified" - 8:30. Is this not almost too good to believe? And, the most marvelous part about it is the fact that God has put Himself upon record in such a way, as being absolutely sovereign in the matter of man's salvation. Election is certainly taught here; but, it is the election of a new creation and not the individual, that is in question here. We were identified with Christ as a new creation in the eternal past. God purposed in His sovereignty, a golden chain of four links for our blessing. These can never be broken. He has predestinated and called and justified and glorified us, in His Son. Christ is the Head of this new creation, and all that is true of Him is true of all those in Him. These words could not refer to us personally; for they were written when as yet there were none of us who are living today. And we, to whom the first three links - predestined, called, and justified - might apply, are not yet glorified; therefore, the conclusion is obvious. These are God's sovereign purposes for us in Christ. They all have been fulfilled to Him; hence are sure, to all those that believe. He is the proof that God will not fail His Word. And we have experienced three of these blessings already.”

Blessings in Christ Jesus.
.

God cannot be limited.
His knowledge of the future does not create the future.
And your explanation of predestination could not be more perfect. To go beyond this is to get into theological mumbo jumbo.

Thanks for the clarity!

Wondering

 

[Randy]

But to the Son He says:“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom. Hebrews 1:8

Is that a Yes or a No to my question.

Do you believe Jesus is Lord, the Lord God?

Yes
Or
No

JLB

Do I believe Jesus is the Father? no
Do I believe Jesus is Christ the Lord? Yes

Haven't you read where God thundered from above these words about Jesus, "this is MY SON whom I love in Him I am well pleased"

I believe as Paul wrote in One God the Father and in One Lord Jesus Christ.
And there is a distinction being made that is not captured in any trinity statements.

Randy

 

[LovethroughDove]

John 14:15-17 "If you love me, you will obey what I command.(John 6:29 Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent) And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever - the Spirit of truth.

So, You believe in Jesus, the Father sends you the Holy Spirit to be with you forever - - - - saved.

 

[JLB]

Do I believe Jesus is the Father? no
Do I believe Jesus is Christ the Lord? Yes

Haven't you read where God thundered from above these words about Jesus, "this is MY SON whom I love in Him I am well pleased"

I believe as Paul wrote in One God the Father and in One Lord Jesus Christ.
And there is a distinction being made that is not captured in any trinity statements.

Randy

I never asked you if Jesus is God the Father.

Please give me a simple yes or no to my question.

Do you believe Jesus is the Lord God?

or

Do you believe Jesus is lord as a man only, with no divine nature.

I will ask it in a different way.

What do you believe Jesus was before, He became flesh?


A Man
an angel
God: God the Son - YHWH the Lord God



JLB

 

[Jim Parker]

“Whom He did predestinate, them He also called: and whom He called, them He also justified: and whom He justified, them He, also glorified" - 8:30. Is this not almost too good to believe? And, the most marvelous part about it is the fact that God has put Himself upon record in such a way, as being absolutely sovereign in the matter of man's salvation.

You have not cited the previous verse. At Ro 8:29 (NKJV) Paul wrote "...whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren."

I understand "those He foreknew" to refer to God's foreknowledge of who would hear the Gospel, repent, believe and be saved. And the use of the word "predestined" in this verse refers to the outcome which God foreordained for those who believe; they are "predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son."

From that statement of Paul, I understand, not that God sovereignly predestined some to be saved and some to perish but, rather, that those who believe would be set on a path of being conformed to the image of His Son; that they would "all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ." (Eph 4:13 NKJV)

Given that context of outcome, the same understanding can be understood from the other two uses of the word "predestined" by Paul in his letter to the Ephesian church. (Paul alone uses the word and does so twice in Romans and twice in Ephesians.)

First, I point out that Paul is writing to those who have believed, to the "church" in Ephesus. He is not writing to those who have not heard the Gospel, accepted it, repented and believed.

In that context he wrote: ( Eph 1:3-6 NKJV) "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has (1) blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He (2) chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, (A) that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, having (3) predestined us (B) to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, (4) according to the good pleasure of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved."

Therefore; those whom God foreknew would believe He (1) blessed, (2) chose, and (3) predestined to be (A) holy and blameless (Like Jesus) and adopted sons by being united with Christ. So, again, I see a predestination of outcome, that believers be conformed to the fullness of Christ in whom dwells all the fullness of Deity bodily. (Col 2:9 NKJV)

Paul further wrote, using the word "predestined" for the last time: (Eph 1:11-12 NKJV) "In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory."

Again, the predestination is for a specific purpose; "that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory."

In none of the four uses of the word "predestined" found in the New Testament, is there a clear statement of God predestining people for salvation or for condemnation. The clearest statement is that those who believe are predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ in whom dwells the fullness of Deity bodily.

The state of salvation or condemnation is, IMO, left to the free will choice of the individual. If man does not have free will to choose to obey or disobey, then he does not have responsibility for his actions and is worthy of neither commendation or condemnation. I gather this from Jesus' statement; "Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation." John 5:28-29 (NKJV) I submit that man is free to choose to do good or to do evil.

and that's my two kopecks (mileage may vary)

iakov the fool

Tevya to beggar, Nachum: "Here, Nachum, here's one kopeck."
Nachum: "Last week you gave me two kopecks."
Tevya: "I had a bad week."
Nachumr: "So, if you had a bad week, why should I suffer?"

 

[turnorburn]

Jim asks: "is there a clear statement of God predestining people for salvation or for condemnation"

Gods word says..

Jude 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[Jim Parker]

Do you believe Jesus is the Lord God?

The Father is the Lord God.
The Son is the Lord God.
The Holy Spirit is the Lord God.

There is only ONE God; the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. No matter what name you choose to use to refer to God, He is still the same Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

What do you believe Jesus was before, He became flesh?

He was exactly what the scripture says He was: God the Logos. (John 1:1)

iakov the fool

 

[Jim Parker]

Jim asks: "is there a clear statement of God predestining people for salvation or for condemnation"

Gods word says..

Jude 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

They were ordained according to the choice they would make.
They were not so ordained because God made them choose evil.
They were ordained because God foreknew that they would do evil and not repent.
There was never a time, or even before time, when God had not already determined that He would "render to each one according to his deeds" (Ro 6:2 NKJV)
That is not predestining anyone to do either evil or good.
That is predestining the rewards for doing good or for doing evil.

Neither was there ever a time, or before time, when God did not know who would and who wold not repent and believe.
The fact that God knows what choices you will make does not mean that He made those choices for you or forced you to make them or prevented you from making a different choice.
Even your "turnorburn" name says that. It says we have a choice.

And please address you comments about what I have said to me. JTLYK, It is rude to talk about someone behind their back.

iakov the fool.

 

[JLB]

The Father is the Lord God.
The Son is the Lord God.
The Holy Spirit is the Lord God.

:amen


JLB

 

[JLB]

The Father is the Lord God.
The Son is the Lord God.
The Holy Spirit is the Lord God.

There is only ONE God; the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. No matter what name you choose to use to refer to God, He is still the same Father, Son and Holy Spirit.



He was exactly what the scripture says He was: God the Logos. (John 1:1)

iakov the fool

Now if I could get Randy to answer me, with a straightforward answer.


JLB

 

[Jim Parker]

:amen

JLB

Thank you for encouraging my behavior.

Iakov the fool

 

[GodsGrace]

You have not cited the previous verse. At Ro 8:29 (NKJV) Paul wrote "...whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren."

I understand "those He foreknew" to refer to God's foreknowledge of who would hear the Gospel, repent, believe and be saved. And the use of the word "predestined" in this verse refers to the outcome which God foreordained for those who believe; they are "predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son."

From that statement of Paul, I understand, not that God sovereignly predestined some to be saved and some to perish but, rather, that those who believe would be set on a path of being conformed to the image of His Son; that they would "all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ." (Eph 4:13 NKJV)

Given that context of outcome, the same understanding can be understood from the other two uses of the word "predestined" by Paul in his letter to the Ephesian church. (Paul alone uses the word and does so twice in Romans and twice in Ephesians.)

First, I point out that Paul is writing to those who have believed, to the "church" in Ephesus. He is not writing to those who have not heard the Gospel, accepted it, repented and believed.

In that context he wrote: ( Eph 1:3-6 NKJV) "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has (1) blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He (2) chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, (A) that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, having (3) predestined us (B) to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, (4) according to the good pleasure of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved."

Therefore; those whom God foreknew would believe He (1) blessed, (2) chose, and (3) predestined to be (A) holy and blameless (Like Jesus) and adopted sons by being united with Christ. So, again, I see a predestination of outcome, that believers be conformed to the fullness of Christ in whom dwells all the fullness of Deity bodily. (Col 2:9 NKJV)

Paul further wrote, using the word "predestined" for the last time: (Eph 1:11-12 NKJV) "In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory."

Again, the predestination is for a specific purpose; "that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory."

In none of the four uses of the word "predestined" found in the New Testament, is there a clear statement of God predestining people for salvation or for condemnation. The clearest statement is that those who believe are predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ in whom dwells the fullness of Deity bodily.

The state of salvation or condemnation is, IMO, left to the free will choice of the individual. If man does not have free will to choose to obey or disobey, then he does not have responsibility for his actions and is worthy of neither commendation or condemnation. I gather this from Jesus' statement; "Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation." John 5:28-29 (NKJV) I submit that man is free to choose to do good or to do evil.

and that's my two kopecks (mileage may vary)

iakov the fool

Tevya to beggar, Nachum: "Here, Nachum, here's one kopeck."
Nachum: "Last week you gave me two kopecks."
Tevya: "I had a bad week."
Nachumr: "So, if you had a bad week, why should I suffer?"

Hello Jim Parker,

Corrrect me if I'm wrong.

I do believe that both you and Eugene are saying the same thing re predestination.

Wondering
A simple yes or no will suffice.

 

[Randy]

I never asked you if Jesus is God the Father.

Please give me a simple yes or no to my question.

Do you believe Jesus is the Lord God?

or

Do you believe Jesus is lord as a man only, with no divine nature.

I will ask it in a different way.

What do you believe Jesus was before, He became flesh?


A Man
an angel
God: God the Son - YHWH the Lord God



JLB

But you see The Father is the one true God. lord God as you state. Jesus is not the Father He is however all that the Father is. For God was pleased to have ALL HIS fullness dwell IN HIS Firstborn.

And when the Father brought the Firstborn into the world He commanded all His angels to bow to Him.

So that would be a no to Is Jesus the Father?

Is Jesus God would be a yes and no.
He never dies.
Yes, He is all that the Father is.
no, He has always been the Son.
Jesus=>it is the Father living in me doing His work. The FATHER is IN the Son.
Jesus=>my God and your God, My Father and your Father.
Jesus uses truth.

Randy

 

[GodsGrace]

But you see The Father is the one true God. lord God as you state. Jesus is not the Father He is however all that the Father is. For God was pleased to have ALL HIS fullness dwell IN HIS Firstborn.

And when the Father brought the Firstborn into the world He commanded all His angels to bow to Him.

So that would be a no to Is Jesus the Father?

Is Jesus God would be a yes and no.
He never dies.
Yes, He is all that the Father is.
no, He has always been the Son.
Jesus=>it is the Father living in me doing His work. The FATHER is IN the Son.
Jesus=>my God and your God, My Father and your Father.
Jesus uses truth.

Randy

Hi Randy,

This conversation seems to be between you and JLB and okay.

I would like to put my two cents in every now and then which I've done.

I've taught the Trinity and no matter what method you use, you end up teaching three different gods. The triangle, the water trick. I like the water trick the best.

I think what you're doing is concentrating on the different characteristics of each of the three persons. Each one is different; each one has its own characteristics. The Son is not the Father. The Father is not the Holy Spirit. In this sense you're correct. However, you're doing what kids (and adults) do. They separate the three. They can't be separated because in the end the Father IS the Son, The Son IS the Holy Spirit and so on.

They are of one nature even though each one has His own characteristics and work to do. It's this separation in our mind that causes a lot of misunderstanding. But how to stop it? The brain works the way it works - we can't shut it down. We kind of just have to accept.

Every time you give an example of Jesus being the Son, you're right. But it's always when He's here on earth, and here on earth, as I've said before, he was limited. I had given the scripture and scripture is pretty useless in cases like this because we could quote back and forth ad infinitum.

I can only repeat, that if we divide up the Trinity, we make Jesus to be a Prophet, a Messiah, but not The Christ.
In that case, we'd be worshipping Him as a false god. This is a bumpy road.

Wondering

 

[JLB]

So that would be a no to Is Jesus the Father?

I never asked this question.

Is Jesus God would be a yes and no.

Ok, Maybe we can discuss some scriptures about this subject, to better understand some things about Jesus, before He became flesh.

15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. Colossians 1:15-17

Key Points:

• the firstborn over all creation

This lines up with what you said about... Jesus has always been the Son.

• For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible,...

This is a straightforward statement by Paul, who had met The Lord Jesus, and been personally taught by Him. Keep in mind Paul's background as a Pharisee of Pharisee's, when reading this statement by him here in Colossians... by Him all things were created, as this would have only been ascribed to YHWH, in a "Monotheistic mindset.

• He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.

There is just no mistaking, that this statement is describing God, as no angels or men or anything had yet to be created.
Clearly Jesus the Son, was there with the Father and the Spirit, before all things.

Jesus is the Son of God, and is the only begotten of the Father, before all things.

He is Co-Creator with the Father and the Spirit.

• All things were created through Him and for Him.

All things, not some things, but all things were created for Him.

All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. John 1:3

Jesus as Creator, even as Co-Creator is the Lord God.

He appeared to some in the Old Testament as the Angel of the Lord, which shows Him as Lord and God.

And the Angel of the Lord appeared to him in a flame of fire from the midst of a bush. So he looked, and behold, the bush was burning with fire, but the bush was not consumed. 3 Then Moses said, “I will now turn aside and see this great sight, why the bush does not burn.”

4 So when the Lord saw that he turned aside to look, God called to him from the midst of the bush and said, “Moses, Moses!”
Exodus 3:2-4

Here, the Spirit of God through Moses, shows us the three-fold progression of understanding, concerning the Angel of the Lord.

• the Angel of the Lord appeared to him in a flame of fire.
• the Lord saw that he turned aside to look - YHWH
  
• God called to him from the midst of the bush - Elohim

The Angel of the Lord is Lord and God.

Not the Father, but the Son.


JLB

 

[JLB]

Hi Randy,

This conversation seems to be between you and JLB and okay.

I would like to put my two cents in every now and then which I've done.

I've taught the Trinity and no matter what method you use, you end up teaching three different gods. The triangle, the water trick. I like the water trick the best.

I think what you're doing is concentrating on the different characteristics of each of the three persons. Each one is different; each one has its own characteristics. The Son is not the Father. The Father is not the Holy Spirit. In this sense you're correct. However, you're doing what kids (and adults) do. They separate the three. They can't be separated because in the end the Father IS the Son, The Son IS the Holy Spirit and so on.

They are of one nature even though each one has His own characteristics and work to do. It's this separation in our mind that causes a lot of misunderstanding. But how to stop it? The brain works the way it works - we can't shut it down. We kind of just have to accept.

Every time you give an example of Jesus being the Son, you're right. But it's always when He's here on earth, and here on earth, as I've said before, he was limited. I had given the scripture and scripture is pretty useless in cases like this because we could quote back and forth ad infinitum.

I can only repeat, that if we divide up the Trinity, we make Jesus to be a Prophet, a Messiah, but not The Christ.
In that case, we'd be worshipping Him as a false god. This is a bumpy road.

Wondering

He is before all things. Colossians 1:17

Can you accept that Jesus is before all things, and as The Son, He is God, the Only begotten of the Father.


JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

He is before all things. Colossians 1:17

Can you accept that Jesus is before all things, and as The Son, He is God, the Only begotten of the Father.


JLB

I believe you and I agree.

Jesus is God.

The 2nd person of the Trinity.

All 3 persons are God.
Each person has a different characteristic, but the nature remains the same. They are all 3 God.

I thought it was Randy who was saying something a little different, although I'm not 100% sure what.

Wondering

 

[JLB]

I believe you and I agree.

Jesus is God.

The 2nd person of the Trinity.

All 3 persons are God.
Each person has a different characteristic, but the nature remains the same. They are all 3 God.

I thought it was Randy who was saying something a little different, although I'm not 100% sure what.

Wondering

I'm wondering also.

I'm wondering if Randy see's that Jesus, the Son of God is before all things, and that all things were created by Him?



JLB

 

[Jim Parker]

Hello Jim Parker,

Corrrect me if I'm wrong.

I do believe that both you and Eugene are saying the same thing re predestination.

Wondering
A simple yes or no will suffice.

From Eugene's post, I think he is talking about a different aspect of predestination. It appears that our views are similar but I don't think we're quite saying "the same thing."

Sorry. That's as close to "yes or no" as I can get.

iakov the fool

 

[GodsGrace]

I'm wondering also.

I'm wondering if Randy see's that Jesus, the Son of God is before all things, and that all things were created by Him?



JLB

If Randy is around he'll answer for himself and doesn't need me.

However, I do think he might just be doing what I spoke of in my post no. 274. He might just be separating Jesus the person from Jesus the 2nd person of the Trinity. Of course you can't or He wouldn't have been God going to the cross to fulfill the prophecies in Ezekiel. (God Himself will save His people). It would have just been a man and how would that forgive our sins?
It wouldn't.

For instance, JW are more direct in their assertion that Jesus is divine in that He's the Son of God. In a different way than we are. Because they're not trinitarian.

It's difficult to tell the difference unless one speaks up. It might be against the rules here - not sure.

It's interesting, anyway, about the JW. It's becoming more and more difficult to discuss with them. Jesus used to be an angel. Easy. Then He became a prophet. Easy. Now He's the Son of God so it takes longer to make your point - but it's still possible as evidenced by all the scripture you've put forward.

Re predestination. I never studied it well enough to have a real conversation. To me it sounds like you and Eugene are saying the same thing. I'm not a Calvinist, that I know for sure.

Wondering