J
jocor
Guest
I was referring to your post #280 and 284. I thought you were saying that that was your belief. Your words were not clear. So I assume you do not believe the Son was an angel as JLB believes (the Angel of the LORD).
Christian Forums
This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!
-
Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
-
Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
-
-
Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
-
-
How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
-
Bible Study Whom do I need to pray to for being saved? Either Jehovah or Jesus?
- Thread starter Tracy J. Harper
- Start date
The term Hebrew came from Eber, who wasn't even born yet.
Yes, as any name she would have used would be a reference to Jesus, who created her.
As His Name is the only Name of the Lord we are given by which men can be saved.
Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”
Acts 4:12
You have got to be kidding me!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Greek texts and translations are considered commentary.
Can you show me where Paul or writers of the New Testament discussed the meaning of Hebrew and Greek words?
Now Adam knew Eve his wife, and she conceived and bore Cain, and said, “I have acquired a man from the Lord.
Genesis 4;1
Jesus is the Name of the Lord.
But to the Son He says:
“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
Hebrews 1:8
Jesus is YHWH, the Lord God who created all thing and is before all things.
For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.
Colossians 1:16-17
This scripture plainly says Jesus is before all thing as well as the Creator of all things.
You seem to ignore all these scriptures and deny Him as the Lord, the Lord of Heaven and earth, the Lord God who became flesh, the Lord God who will come with His saints.
Thus the Lord my God will come, and all the saints with You. Zechariah 14;5
Jesus is Lord, YHWH.
JLB
GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
He said:
19 Jesus answered and said to them, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.”
20 Then the Jews said, “It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and will You raise it up in three days?”
21 But He was speaking of the temple of His body. John 2:19-21
Please address these 4 different scriptures that show the Angel of the Lord as God.
Jesus appeared as The Angel of the Lord.
Angels are spirits.
The Angel of the Lord is The Spirit of the Lord.
- Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. 2 Corinthians 3:17
Angels are called sons of God, The Angel of the Lord would then be the Son of God. John 3:16
Angels are also messengers, that bring a message from God, which is called a word of God.
The Angel of the Lord, would then be the Word of God.
- In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. John 1:1
I have given you four different scriptures from the Old Testament that refer to the Angel of the Lord as God.
Here they are again, since you have never addressed them.
And the Angel of the Lord appeared to him in a flame of fire from the midst of a bush.
And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look upon God.Exodus 3:2,6
and again
21 When the Angel of the Lord appeared no more to Manoah and his wife, then Manoah knew that He was the Angel of the Lord.
22 And Manoah said to his wife, “We shall surely die, because we have seen God!”
Judges 13:21-22
and again
11 And the Angel of the Lord said to her:
“Behold, you are with child, and you shall bear a son.
You shall call his name Ishmael, because the Lord has heard your affliction.
12 He shall be a wild man; his hand shall be against every man,
And every man’s hand against him. and he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren.”
13 Then she called the name of the Lord who spoke to her, You-Are-the-God-Who-Sees; for she said, “Have I also here seen Himwho sees me?” Genesis 16:11-13
“By the mouth of two or three witnesses every word shall be established.” 2 Corinthians 13:1
Then The Lord Himself, the Spirit of Christ, through Zechariah also refers to the Angel of the Lord as God.
In that day the Lord will defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; the one who is feeble among them in that day shall be like David, and the house of David shall be like God,like the Angel of the Lord before them. Zechariah 12:8
Then the writer of the book of Hebrews weighs in on the subject:
For to which of the angels did He ever say: “You are My Son, today I have begotten You”?
and again -
But to the Son He says: “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
Hebrews 1:5,8
JLB
J
jocor
Guest
That is irrelevant. The language Eve spoke would have been spoken by all her descendants right down to Eber. Hebrew is simply the name given to the language of Eber.
They didn't need to discuss Hebrew since that was their native language. They already knew what the words meant. English speakers do not know what the words mean without the aid of lexicons, etc.
Exactly, the point.
You don't speak Hebrew.
Eve didn't speak Hebrew.
Eve obtained a man from the Lord.
Do you confess Jesus as Lord?
If not then please explain why you don't.
If so, then I have proven my point, that Eve obtained a man from the Lord, the same Lord who created all things, and is before all things.
Jesus Christ, who came in the flesh.
Now Adam knew Eve his wife, and she conceived and bore Cain, and said, “I have acquired a man from the Lord.
Genesis 4:1
JLB
Please show chapter and verse for what you claim, as this is a bible study, not a study of the traditions Judaism.
- Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of His saints... Jude 14
- Thus the Lord my God will come, and all the saints with You. Zechariah 14:5
Do you believe these scriptures refer to the Lord Jesus, or God the Father ?
JLB
In addition, It was the Angel of the Lord, as Lord and God, who made Covenant with the children of Israel and led them out of Egypt.
Then the Angel of the Lord came up from Gilgal to Bochim, and said: “I led you up from Egypt and brought you to the land of which I swore to your fathers; and I said, ‘I will never break My covenant with you. 2 And you shall make no covenant with the inhabitants of this land; you shall tear down their altars.’ But you have not obeyed My voice. Why have you done this?3 Therefore I also said, ‘I will not drive them out before you; but they shall be thorns in your side, and their gods shall be a snare to you.’” 4 So it was, when the Angel of the Lord spoke these words to all the children of Israel, that the people lifted up their voices and wept. Judges 2:1-4
Jesus is the Lord God of Israel, who became flesh and died for our sins, and rose again on the Third Day.
He is coming with His saints to Judge the living and the dead.
Jesus Christ is our great God and Savior. Titus 2:13
JLB
J
jocor
Guest
Since names are transliterated from one language to another, when Eve said, "YHWH" according to the inspired Hebrew text, the pronunciation of "YHWH" in Hebrew would be the pronunciation of our Heavenly Father's name in any language on Earth. You can argue against that all you want to your own shame.
If, by "Lord", you mean "Master", then yes. If, by "Lord" you mean "the LORD" (YHWH), then absolutely not.
J
jocor
Guest
Jude 14 refers to Yeshua.
Zech 14:5 refers to the Father coming in the person of His Son Yeshua. I don't superficially read Scripture. I study it and harmonize it with other relevant verses. Verse 5 needs to be understood in the context of verses 3-4:
Zec 14:3-4 Then shall the LORD (YHWH) go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle. And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
Whose feet will stand upon the mount of Olives? Yeshua's. Does this mean Yeshua is "the LORD" of verse 3? Of course not!! Verses 3-4 MUST be understood in the light of Exodus 7:17;
"Thus saith the LORD (YHWH), In this thou shalt know that I am the LORD (YHWH): behold, I will smite with the rod that is in mine hand upon the waters which are in the river, and they shall be turned to blood. And the fish that is in the river shall die, and the river shall stink; and the Egyptians shall lothe to drink of the water of the river. And the LORD (YHWH) spake unto Moses, Say unto Aaron, Take thy rod, and stretch out thine hand upon the waters of Egypt, upon their streams, upon their rivers, and upon their ponds, and upon all their pools of water, that they may become blood; and that there may be blood throughout all the land of Egypt, both in vessels of wood, and in vessels of stone. And Moses and Aaron did so, as the LORD (YHWH) commanded; and he (Aaron) lifted up the rod, and smote the waters that were in the river, in the sight of Pharaoh, and in the sight of his servants; and all the waters that were in the river were turned to blood."
Yahweh says He Himself will smite the waters with the rod in His own hand. Yet, it was Aaron that held the rod (Ex.7:19,20). Are we to believe that Aaron is also Yahweh? Neither should we believe that Yeshua is Yahweh in Zechariah 14:3-5.
Most people believe "his feet" refers to "the LORD's" feet (YHWH's feet). Yet, they realize that it is "Jesus" (Yeshua) who is returning to set up the Kingdom on earth. So they jump to the erroneous conclusion that "Jesus is the LORD (YHWH)". As Messiah's feet land on the Mount of Olives, Yahweh the Father will cause it to cleave in two. Yet, as Yahweh's representative, Yeshua's feet are spoken of as Yahweh's feet just as Aaron's hand is spoken of as Yahweh's hand.
Yeshua will indeed come with all the saints, but he will come with the Father living in him via the Holy Spirit.
2Co 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
God (the Father) was in "Christ" while he was on earth and He will be in "Christ" when he returns. They are both coming with the saints; Yeshua bodily and YHWH through the indwelling Holy Spirit in Yeshua.
We all know that the Father is in Christ, and Christ is in the Father.
- However, It's Jesus Christ who will appear, and come physically, and be seen by everyone, with His saints from Heaven
Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of His saints, 15 to execute judgment on all, to convict all who are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have committed in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him.” Jude 14-15
This is the same thing Zechariah says as well -
Zechariah 14: -
1] Behold, the day of the Lord is coming, And your spoil will be divided in your midst...
4] And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives...
5] Thus the Lord my God will come,and all the saints with You.
6] It shall come to pass in that day that there will be no light; The lights will diminish.
7 It shall be one day Which is known to the Lord— Neither day nor night. But at evening time it shall happen That it will be light.
It was from Zechariah, that Jesus taught His disciples privately, about His Coming.
29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Matthew 24:29-31
- ...the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, Matthew 24:29
- ...in that day that there will be no light; The lights will diminish. Zechariah 14:6
No where does the scriptures teach, that God the Father will be coming with the saints, but rather the Son of Man, Jesus Christ, the Lord God will come with all His saints, on the day of Christ, the last Day to raise the dead at the resurrection and rapture.
Every eye will see Him, and they will mourn when they see Him...
Again from Zechariah, and correlating to the Olivet Discourse:
10 “And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn.
Zechariah 12:10
- They will look on the One whom they pieced, which is the Son of Man, Jesus Christ the Lord, not God the Father.
30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. Matthew 24:30
This scripture is the nail in the coffin, for the un-biblical doctrine taught by Judaism, Messianic Judaism, as well as cults such as JW's all of which deny the divinity of our Lord Jesus Christ who is our great God and Savior.
- No where in the scriptures does it say God the Father will return with His saints.
JLB
Absolutely it's Jesus the LORD who will stand on the mount of Olives, and not God the Father.
It is Jesus who will come and be seen by all, even those who pierced Him will mourn.
so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation. Hebrews 9:28
God the father is Him who is seated upon the Throne, as He is worshiped Day and Night.
He is not leaving the Throne, but it is Jesus who will come with the saints and be seen by all.
19 Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, 20 and that He may send Jesus Christ, who was preached to you before, 21 whom heaven must receive until the times of restoration of all things, which God has spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began. Acts 3:19-21
The Day of the Lord is the Day of Christ.
Show me a New Testament scripture that says God the Father will come with the saints and appear and be seen by all.
JLB
Those that reject Jesus as LORD, YHWH the Lord God who will come with His saints, who is called our great God and Savior, disobey the Gospel.
9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.”12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. 13 For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.”
But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our report?”
Romans 10:9-13
Those that reject the Gospel, in favor of "another gospel", and believe in "another jesus", who is not Lord, but only a man, are those who Paul says... have not obeyed the Gospel.
and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.
2 Thessalonians 1:7-8
It's not God the Father, who will take vengeance, but the Lord who will be revealed from Heaven, who will take vengeance on those who disobey the Gospel.
JLB
J
jocor
Guest
I am not the one preaching "another Gospel". When you point your finger at me you have three pointing back at yourself. However, you are correct about one thing; I believe in "another Jesus" who is totally unlike the one you believe in. His name is Yeshua and he is the Son of God, not your man-made term "God the Son". His Father's name is YHWH (Yahweh). Yeshua's God is the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob (the God revealed throughout the OT who you say is Jesus).
Yes, Jesus was with God in the beginning and God created the creation THROUGH Him. That includes Adam.
Jesus is the image of the invisible God and the exact representation of Gods being. He is all that the Father is.
When do you state the Son was begotten? You do state Jesus has always been the Son. Whose Son is He? If He always was and always was God then how did He become the Son?
Jesus calls the Father the One true God. If Jesus always was and and always was God then how do you hold to one God for Jesus stated on the cross, "Father into your hands I commit My spirit?"
Jesus with God in the beginning and the creation being created through Him does not mean He always was. It means He was before the world began. He is Gods firstborn and as is clearly written the fullness was pleased to dwell IN Him. The Father is that fullness not Jesus. Otherwise you would have two Gods.
Your theology is partially mistaken.
Te Holy Spirit is the Fathers Spirit. The Fathers promise in the last days I will pour out My Spirit..... In a believer that Spirit represents the presence of Christ. (His will) It was sent in Jesus's name. That Spirit in Jesus represents the presence of the Father. Father in Son and Jesus in us. But there is only One God the Father and the Holy Spirit is His Spirit.
Jesus=>
“If you love me, keep my commands.16And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever—17the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will bec in you.18I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you.19Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live.20On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you.21Whoever has my commands and keeps them is the one who loves me. The one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love them and show myself to them.”
Father=>In the last days I will pour out My Spirit...
Acts 2:=>
God has raised this Jesus to life, and we are all witnesses of it. 33 Exalted to the right hand of God, he has received from the Father the promised Holy Spirit and has poured out what you now see and hear. 34 For David did not ascend to heaven, and yet he said,
“‘The Lord said to my Lord:
“Sit at my right hand
35 until I make your enemies
a footstool for your feet.”’[f]
36 “Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Messiah.”
Randy
I post many scriptures to validate what I have said, and as of yet you can not refute them.
You seem only to post your opinion, like this post.
Here is the scripture where the phrase God the Son comes from...
But to the Son He says: “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; a scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
Hebrews 1:8
Jesus is referred to as both God and Son in this verse.
You are the one who is teaching the people of this Forum that God the Father is the One coming with the saints.
It is Jesus who will come and be seen by all, even those who pierced Him will mourn.
so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation. Hebrews 9:28
God the father is Him who is seated upon the Throne, as He is worshiped Day and Night.
He is not leaving the Throne, but it is Jesus who will come with the saints and be seen by all.
19 Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, 20 and that He may send Jesus Christ, who was preached to you before, 21 whom heaven must receive until the times of restoration of all things, which God has spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began. Acts 3:19-21
The Day of the Lord is the Day of Christ.
Show me a New Testament scripture that says God the Father will come with the saints and appear and be seen by all.
JLB
You have about 10 scriptures that I have posted, which you never even tried to address.
You seem to be more concerned with the traditions of men, than the word of God.
Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of His saints, 15 to execute judgment on all, to convict all who are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have committed in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him.” Jude 14-15
This is the same thing Zechariah says as well -
Zechariah 14: -
1] Behold, the day of the Lord is coming, And your spoil will be divided in your midst...
4] And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives...
5] Thus the Lord my God will come,and all the saints with You.
6] It shall come to pass in that day that there will be no light; The lights will diminish.
7 It shall be one day Which is known to the Lord— Neither day nor night. But at evening time it shall happen That it will be light.
It was from Zechariah, that Jesus taught His disciples privately, about His Coming.
29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Matthew 24:29-31
- ...the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, Matthew 24:29
- ...in that day that there will be no light; The lights will diminish. Zechariah 14:6
No where does the scriptures teach, that God the Father will be coming with the saints, but rather the Son of Man, Jesus Christ, the Lord God will come with all His saints, on the day of Christ, the last Day to raise the dead at the resurrection and rapture.
Every eye will see Him, and they will mourn when they see Him...
Again from Zechariah, and correlating to the Olivet Discourse:
10 “And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn.
Zechariah 12:10
- They will look on the One whom they pieced, which is the Son of Man, Jesus Christ the Lord, not God the Father.
30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. Matthew 24:30
This scripture is the nail in the coffin, for the un-biblical doctrine taught by Judaism, Messianic Judaism, as well as cults such as JW's all of which deny the divinity of our Lord Jesus Christ who is our great God and Savior.
- No where in the scriptures does it say God the Father will return with His saints.
JLB