Bible Study Whom do I need to pray to for being saved? Either Jehovah or Jesus?

[Randy]

I never asked this question.



Ok, Maybe we can discuss some scriptures about this subject, to better understand some things about Jesus, before He became flesh.

15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. Colossians 1:15-17

Key Points:

• the firstborn over all creation

This lines up with what you said about... Jesus has always been the Son.

• For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible,...

This is a straightforward statement by Paul, who had met The Lord Jesus, and been personally taught by Him. Keep in mind Paul's background as a Pharisee of Pharisee's, when reading this statement by him here in Colossians... by Him all things were created, as this would have only been ascribed to YHWH, in a "Monotheistic mindset.

• He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.

There is just no mistaking, that this statement is describing God, as no angels or men or anything had yet to be created.
Clearly Jesus the Son, was there with the Father and the Spirit, before all things.

Jesus is the Son of God, and is the only begotten of the Father, before all things.

He is Co-Creator with the Father and the Spirit.

• All things were created through Him and for Him.

All things, not some things, but all things were created for Him.

All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. John 1:3

Jesus as Creator, even as Co-Creator is the Lord God.

He appeared to some in the Old Testament as the Angel of the Lord, which shows Him as Lord and God.

And the Angel of the Lord appeared to him in a flame of fire from the midst of a bush. So he looked, and behold, the bush was burning with fire, but the bush was not consumed. 3 Then Moses said, “I will now turn aside and see this great sight, why the bush does not burn.”

4 So when the Lord saw that he turned aside to look, God called to him from the midst of the bush and said, “Moses, Moses!”
Exodus 3:2-4

Here, the Spirit of God through Moses, shows us the three-fold progression of understanding, concerning the Angel of the Lord.

• the Angel of the Lord appeared to him in a flame of fire.
• the Lord saw that he turned aside to look - YHWH
  
• God called to him from the midst of the bush - Elohim

The Angel of the Lord is Lord and God.

Not the Father, but the Son.


JLB

Psalm 89:27 God appoints His Firstborn to the line of David and keeps His promise that Davids line would never end. Jesus's appointment term as is stated in pslam 110 is "forever". A priest forever....
Who is the greatest David or the One He calls Lord sitting at the right hand of power in heaven?
Who then is Gods Firstborn as Paul declared; as Hebrews declares? Jesus has always been GODS Son. If He is not Gods Son then whose Son is He?
Jesus is the firstborn of all creation or every creature. He then is (first) before all things and God did create through His firstborn.(Son)
Jesus declares the Father the One true God and His God. Even the risen Jesus is heaven calls the Father His God.

Only the Father states My Spirit in regard to the Holy Spirit or Spirit of the Soverign Lord. The Spirit Jesus sent He received from the Father Ref Acts 2

The Son that was (His Spirit) was in the tent of the fully human body that GOD prepared for Him. Jesus was NOT emptied of the Father.

Randy

 

[JLB]

JW are more direct in their assertion that Jesus is divine in that He's the Son of God.

JW say Jesus is Michael the Archangel, who became the man, Jesus Christ.


JLB

 

[JLB]

Jesus declares the Father the One true God and His God. Even the risen Jesus is heaven calls the Father His God.

Yes, most definitely God the Father, is the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.


Here is what God the Father declares about His only Begotten Son.

But to the Son He says:

“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
Hebrews 1:8

How could God beget anything other than God?

My firstborn son, has the same name as me.

He is a man, as that's what I am.

I can not beget a horse or a dog.

Saying that Jesus is God's only begotten Son, is saying Jesus is also God, like His Father who beget Him.

Not God the Father, but God the Son.


JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

JW say Jesus is Michael the Archangel, who became the man, Jesus Christ.


JLB

I think they used to say this many years ago.

I have JW coming to my door now and they tell me He's the son of God. We discuss John 1 a lot.

In post no. 280 I had said that there's been a change:

anyway, about the JW. It's becoming more and more difficult to discuss with them. Jesus used to be an angel. Easy. Then He became a prophet. Easy. Now He's the Son of God so it takes longer to make your point - but it's still possible as evidenced by all the scripture you've put forward.

If you don't agree, you don't have to reply. it's not that important to me.

Wondering

 

[JLB]

Only the Father states My Spirit in regard to the Holy Spirit or Spirit of the Soverign Lord. The Spirit Jesus sent He received from the Father Ref Acts 2

The Son that was (His Spirit) was in the tent of the fully human body that GOD prepared for Him. Jesus was NOT emptied of the Father.

But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. Romans 8:9


The Spirit of Christ is God, as He can dwell in all His people everywhere, because He is Omnipresent.

In addition, all things exist in Him, that would be the universe, the solar systems, the galaxies. the planets, people, animals... all of creation has it's existence in Him.

And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. Colossians 1:17



JLB

 

[JLB]

I think they used to say this many years ago.

I have JW coming to my door now and they tell me He's the son of God. We discuss John 1 a lot.

In post no. 280 I had said that there's been a change:

anyway, about the JW. It's becoming more and more difficult to discuss with them. Jesus used to be an angel. Easy. Then He became a prophet. Easy. Now He's the Son of God so it takes longer to make your point - but it's still possible as evidenced by all the scripture you've put forward.

If you don't agree, you don't have to reply. it's not that important to me.

Wondering

Thanks for sharing your experiences with us, about those folks.

It's good to know.


JLB

 

[JLB]

I knew you wouldn't give me a straight answer. Maybe tomorrow, after you sleep on it, you can give an honest answer to the name Eve spoke back to her husband. It really is a simple question that does not require a veiled answer.

The Lord.

Eve got a man from the Lord.

I answered this question back in post # 238.

Now Adam knew Eve his wife, and she conceived and bore Cain, and said, “I have acquired a man from the Lord.”
Genesis 4:1

This is a reference to the Lord who created all things and is before all things.

And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. Colossians 1:17

The New Testament teaches us what the Name of the Lord is: Jesus.

Now I plead with you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ...
1 Corinthians 1:10

He, Jesus is before Eve, and He, Jesus created Eve, and breathed the breath of life into Adam.

And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being. Genesis 2:7

The New Testament calls this the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus. Romans 8:2


And He [Jesus] is before all things, and in Him all things consist. Colossians 1:17

How is it that you say Jesus did not exist, before He was born of Mary, but the scriptures say; He is before all things?



JLB

 

[Randy]

But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. Romans 8:9


The Spirit of Christ is God, as He can dwell in all His people everywhere, because He is Omnipresent.

In addition, all things exist in Him, that would be the universe, the solar systems, the galaxies. the planets, people, animals... all of creation has it's existence in Him.

And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. Colossians 1:17



JLB

If Jesus always was and always was God how then did He become the Son?
If Jesus is not the Fathers Son whose Son is He?
The Holy Spirit was sent in Jesus's name and represents the presence or will of Christ Jesus in a believer. Hence I would state I have the Spirit of Christ in me even though I know Jesus received that Spirit that He sent to me from the Father. It is by Jesus's will that that Spirit remains in me. It is therefore the Lord Jesus who holds our lives in His hands. It is however His Fathers will to raise us up on the last day and He will never drive us away.

Jesus is not before the Father but as Gods firstborn He is before all beings and even the creation that was made through Him.

I am trying to help you understand so if we disagree that's ok to me but I state you are mistaken. I know my Lord and He knows me.
Randy

 

[jocor]

Jesus used to be an angel. Easy.

Yeshua (Jesus) was never an angel. Hebrews 1:4-14 and 2:2-9, especially verse 5, teaches this.

Heb 2:5 Now it was not to angels that God subjected the world to come, of which we are speaking.​

The world to come is subject to Yeshua, NOT to angels.

 

[jocor]

The Lord.

Eve got a man from the Lord.

I answered this question back in post # 238.

Now Adam knew Eve his wife, and she conceived and bore Cain, and said, “I have acquired a man from the Lord.”
Genesis 4:1

You still have not answered correctly. Eve did NOT speak English. She did not say "the Lord". Nor did she say "Jesus". The Hebrew text says she said, "YHWH". Transliterated into English, it is "Yahweh". "YHWH" is the Father of Yeshua (Psalm 2:2, 7).

 

[JLB]

If Jesus always was and always was God how then did He become the Son?

He was begotten by the Father.
He was in the beginning with the Father.

By Him all things were created.
Without Him nothing was made, that was made. John 1:3


He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.
Colossians 1:17

Adam was created by Him.

Without Him, Adam was not created.

He breathed the breath of life into Adam.

Yeshua (Jesus) was never an angel. Hebrews 1:4-14 and 2:2-9, especially verse 5, teaches this.

Heb 2:5 Now it was not to angels that God subjected the world to come, of which we are speaking.​

The world to come is subject to Yeshua, NOT to angels.

I never said Jesus was an angel.
Jesus appeared as the Angel of the Lord.

Angels are spirits.
The Angel of the Lord is The Spirit of the Lord.

• Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. 2 Corinthians 3:17

Angels are called sons of God, The Angel of the Lord would then be the Son of God. John 3:16


Angels are also messengers, that bring a message from God, which is called a word of God.
The Angel of the Lord, would then be the Word of God.

• In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. John 1:1

I have given you four different scriptures from the Old Testament that refer to the Angel of the Lord as God.

Here they are again, since you have never addressed them.

And the Angel of the Lord appeared to him in a flame of fire from the midst of a bush.
And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look upon God.Exodus 3:2,6

and again

21 When the Angel of the Lord appeared no more to Manoah and his wife, then Manoah knew that He was the Angel of the Lord.
22 And Manoah said to his wife, “We shall surely die, because we have seen God!”
Judges 13:21-22

and again

11 And the Angel of the Lord said to her:
“Behold, you are with child, and you shall bear a son.
You shall call his name Ishmael, because the Lord has heard your affliction.
12 He shall be a wild man; his hand shall be against every man,
And every man’s hand against him. and he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren.”
13 Then she called the name of the Lord who spoke to her, You-Are-the-God-Who-Sees; for she said, “Have I also here seen Him who sees me?” Genesis 16:11-13


“By the mouth of two or three witnesses every word shall be established.” 2 Corinthians 13:1


Then The Lord Himself, the Spirit of Christ, through Zechariah also refers to the Angel of the Lord as God.

In that day the Lord will defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; the one who is feeble among them in that day shall be like David, and the house of David shall be like God, like the Angel of the Lord before them. Zechariah 12:8


Then the writer of the book of Hebrews weighs in on the subject:

For to which of the angels did He ever say: “You are My Son, today I have begotten You”?

and again -

But to the Son He says: “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
Hebrews 1:5,8


JLB

 

[JLB]

You still have not answered correctly. Eve did NOT speak English. She did not say "the Lord". Nor did she say "Jesus". The Hebrew text says she said, "YHWH". Transliterated into English, it is "Yahweh". "YHWH" is the Father of Yeshua (Psalm 2:2, 7).

I quoted you scripture, if that is not good enough for, then maybe your in the wrong thread.

This is the Bible Study Thread.

Here we study the Bible.

Here is what the Bible says about Eve getting a man from the Lord.

Now Adam knew Eve his wife, and she conceived and bore Cain, and said, “I have acquired a man from the Lord. Genesis 4:1


Jesus is the name of the Lord, the Lord who was before all things, the Lord who created all things, as nothing that was made, was made without Him.

• All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. John 1:3

and again

• 16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. Colossians 1:16-17

Adam and Eve, were created by Him, through Him and for Him.
Without Him, Adam and Eve were not made.

Which means, He was one of the "Us", that created male and female, since nothing that was made, was made without Him.

Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; Genesis 1:26


JLB

 

[JLB]

"YHWH" is the Father of Yeshua (Psalm 2:2, 7).

But to the Son He says:“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
Hebrews 1:8


The Son is declared to be God.


JLB

 

[JLB]

Eve did NOT speak English.

Did Eve speak Hebrew?

Yet you are trying to use Hebrew to validate your claim.


Now Adam knew Eve his wife, and she conceived and bore Cain, and said, “I have acquired a man from the Lord.” Genesis 4:1

• Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; Genesis 1:26

JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

Did Eve speak Hebrew?

Yet you are trying to use Hebrew to validate your claim.


Now Adam knew Eve his wife, and she conceived and bore Cain, and said, “I have acquired a man from the Lord.” Genesis 4:1

• Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; Genesis 1:26

JLB

Eve didn't speak Hebrew either.
But the O.T. was written in Hebrew.
The word Lord in the O.T. means God or Yahweh.
Sometimes, as a prefiguring it could REFER to Jesus.

Wondering

 

[GodsGrace]

Yeshua (Jesus) was never an angel. Hebrews 1:4-14 and 2:2-9, especially verse 5, teaches this.

Heb 2:5 Now it was not to angels that God subjected the world to come, of which we are speaking.​

The world to come is subject to Yeshua, NOT to angels.

Huh?

Are you talkin' ta me?

I know very well who Jesus is. Before He was born and after He was born.

You must be referring to when I was saying that the JW used to think Jesus was an angel.

Wondering

 

[JLB]

Huh?

Are you talkin' ta me?

I know very well who Jesus is. Before He was born and after He was born.

You must be referring to when I was saying that the JW used to think Jesus was an angel.

Wondering

He is talking to me, and addressing my post.

Here is my reply to him...


I never said Jesus was an angel.
Jesus appeared as The Angel of the Lord.

Angels are spirits.
The Angel of the Lord is The Spirit of the Lord.

• Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. 2 Corinthians 3:17

Angels are called sons of God, The Angel of the Lord would then be the Son of God. John 3:16


Angels are also messengers, that bring a message from God, which is called a word of God.
The Angel of the Lord, would then be the Word of God.

• In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. John 1:1

I have given you four different scriptures from the Old Testament that refer to the Angel of the Lord as God.

Here they are again, since you have never addressed them.

And the Angel of the Lord appeared to him in a flame of fire from the midst of a bush.
And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look upon God.Exodus 3:2,6

and again

21 When the Angel of the Lord appeared no more to Manoah and his wife, then Manoah knew that He was the Angel of the Lord.
22 And Manoah said to his wife, “We shall surely die, because we have seen God!”
Judges 13:21-22

and again

11 And the Angel of the Lord said to her:
“Behold, you are with child, and you shall bear a son.
You shall call his name Ishmael, because the Lord has heard your affliction.
12 He shall be a wild man; his hand shall be against every man,
And every man’s hand against him. and he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren.”
13 Then she called the name of the Lord who spoke to her, You-Are-the-God-Who-Sees; for she said, “Have I also here seen Him who sees me?” Genesis 16:11-13


“By the mouth of two or three witnesses every word shall be established.” 2 Corinthians 13:1


Then The Lord Himself, the Spirit of Christ, through Zechariah also refers to the Angel of the Lord as God.

In that day the Lord will defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; the one who is feeble among them in that day shall be like David, and the house of David shall be like God,like the Angel of the Lord before them. Zechariah 12:8


Then the writer of the book of Hebrews weighs in on the subject:

For to which of the angels did He ever say: “You are My Son, today I have begotten You”?

and again -

But to the Son He says: “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
Hebrews 1:5,8


JLB

 

[jocor]

Adam was created by Him.

Without Him, Adam was not created.

He breathed the breath of life into Adam.

Why didn't Yeshua say, "But from the beginning of the creation I made them male and female" ? (Mark 10:6). Why didn't Yeshua say, "For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which I created unto this time, neither shall be"? (Mark 13:19}

I never said Jesus was an angel.

That post was directed to Wondering, not you.

 

[jocor]

I quoted you scripture, if that is not good enough for, then maybe your in the wrong thread.

This is the Bible Study Thread.

Here we study the Bible.

You have got to be kidding me!!!!!!!!!!!!! Bible study does not include studying the Hebrew or Greek texts??? It is no wonder that you cannot come to a knowledge of the truth in this matter.

 

[jocor]

Did Eve speak Hebrew?

Yet you are trying to use Hebrew to validate your claim.

Yes, I believe Eve spoke Hebrew. However, it doesn't matter. Even if she spoke Chinese, the name she spoke would be the same. The Almighty's name does not change from one language to another. If the name was transliterated into Hebrew as "Yahweh" or even "YHWH", it would sound the same no matter what language she spoke.