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Bible Study Whom do I need to pray to for being saved? Either Jehovah or Jesus?

The reason I don't use the term Trinity, is it is not a biblical term, and has been misunderstood and misapplied.

I use the term Godhead, or Elohim [Hebrew- plural for God H430].



Share with me your thoughts about Acts 1:11 and how it applies.

11 who also said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven.” Acts 1:11


JLB
Hi JLB
I think we spoke about this before: How a word may not be in the bible but the CONCEPT is. For instance, is hell ever mentioned? No, it's not. But the concept of hell is present. Actually, it's only mentioned once in 2 Peter 2:4 but it's a place where angels are awaiting judgment.

But, if that's how you feel about it - okay.

Re Acts 1:11. It seems clear enough. "The SAME JESUS who was taken up will so come in like manner."

Doesn't this mean that it's Jesus who is coming back?

W
 
The Father willed, The Son spoke, and acted, the Holy Spirit brought to pass what the Son said and did.



JLB
Jesus=>It is the Father in me doing His work.

If you can't tell by now I put the most weight on what Jesus stated. I suggest you do the same.

Randy
 
It teaches also that God the Father is Jesus's God and God the Father is the One who glorified/glorifies the Son.
Randy


Amen.

God the Father is the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Jesus is the only Begotten Son, of God the Father.

But to the Son He says:“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
Hebrews 1:8


JLB
 
Peter teaches us the Spirit of Christ is the Spirit of YHWH, the Lord God, who spoke through the mouth of the prophets.

searching what, or what manner of time, the Spirit of Christ who was in them was indicating when He testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow. 1 Peter 1:11


Here is an example of the Spirit of Christ speaking through an old testament prophet:

The burden of the word of the Lord against Israel. Thus says the Lord, who stretches out the heavens, lays the foundation of the earth, and forms the spirit of man within him: 10 “And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced... Zechariah 12:1,10


Jesus' Spirit, the Spirit of Christ, is the Spirit of the Lord.

Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. 2 Corinthians 3:17



JLB
Jesus=And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever-

Fathers Promise (Per Jesus)=>"'In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams.

Peter=Exalted to the right hand of God, he has received from the Father the promised Holy Spirit and has poured out what you now see and hear.

Now Jesus never states His Spirit and God always does. Hmmm...

By the way I have the Spirit of Christ (context -it was sent in Jesus's name.) in me the promised Holy Spirit. As in me Gods Holy Spirit represents the presence or will of Christ just as in the Son it represents the presence or will of the Father. But that Spirit is still the one and only Holy Spirit. The one the Father calls His own. Just as Jesus is the One and Only Son the One the Father calls His own.

Reads Like One God the Father and One Lord Jesus Christ.


Randy
 
Amen.

God the Father is the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Jesus is the only Begotten Son, of God the Father.

But to the Son He says:“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
Hebrews 1:8


JLB
Jesus=>To the one who is victorious, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I was victorious and sat down with my Father on his throne.

Yes I would agree the creation was made through the Son and the throne Jesus has a place on is forever with no end. Clearly the Father has glorified the One He calls His Son and clearly the Son brings glory to the One He calls His Father and His God. As posted the Father also declares the He is Jesus's God (therefore God your God)

Jesus=> "I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.'"


Randy
 
Jesus=> "I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.'"

Yes, God the Father is the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Just like a man has a son, and gives his firstborn son his name.

The father is the father of that son, though they are both human, the father is greater in authority.


JLB
 
How has the term been misunderstood and misapplied?

Why don't you start a thread on the Trinity, and explain to everyone about the Trinity, and see how many people will comment on your understanding you have of the Trinity.

I will participate, and share.

Go for it.



Thanks, JLB
 
Jesus=And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever-

Fathers Promise (Per Jesus)=>"'In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams.

Peter=Exalted to the right hand of God, he has received from the Father the promised Holy Spirit and has poured out what you now see and hear.

Now Jesus never states His Spirit and God always does. Hmmm...

By the way I have the Spirit of Christ (context -it was sent in Jesus's name.) in me the promised Holy Spirit. As in me Gods Holy Spirit represents the presence or will of Christ just as in the Son it represents the presence or will of the Father. But that Spirit is still the one and only Holy Spirit. The one the Father calls His own. Just as Jesus is the One and Only Son the One the Father calls His own.

Reads Like One God the Father and One Lord Jesus Christ.


Randy

It depends on your definition of Lord.

If you mean Lord as in God, then I agree.

If you mean Lord as in a man only, then I disagree.


Jesus is YHWH, the Lord and Savior of Israel.


JLB
 
Why don't you start a thread on the Trinity, and explain to everyone about the Trinity,
HAH! That's like opening Pandora's box! The nuts, flakes and kooks will be coming out of the woodwork!
God cannot be definitively explained. God is beyond our ability to completely comprehend. As creatures, we're just not packing the gear.
Now, I could give my personal understanding.

And, again, how do you see the term "trinity" being misunderstood and misapplied? Care to share?

iakov the fool
 
Now, I could give my personal understanding.


Yes, that's what I'm asking for... with scripture.

And, again, how do you see the term "trinity" being misunderstood and misapplied? Care to share?

One misunderstanding, is the misunderstanding of the Trinity, by Oneness folks, who claim that Trinity belief is the belief in Three Gods, rather than One God.


Oneness theology denies the Trinity and teaches that God is a single person who was "manifested as Father in creation and as the Father of the Son, in the Son for our redemption, and as the Holy Spirit in our regeneration."1 Another way of looking at it is that God revealed Himself as Father in the Old Testament and as the Son in Jesus during Christ’s ministry on earth and now as the Holy Spirit after Christ’s ascension. https://carm.org/oneness-pentecostal-theology




The beautiful message of Scripture is that our Creator became our Savior. The God against whom we sinned is the One who forgives us. God loved us so much that He came in flesh to save us. He gave of Himself; He did not send someone else. Moreover, our Creator-Savior is also the indwelling Spirit who is ever-present to help us. God told us how to live and then came to live among us. He showed us how to live in the flesh and laid down His human life to purchase our salvation. Now He abides within us and enables us to live according to His will.

Jesus Christ is the one God incarnate, and in Him we have everything we need: healing, deliverance, victory, and salvation
(Colossians 2:9-10). By recognizing the almighty God in Jesus Christ, we restore correct biblical belief and experience apostolic power.

http://www.upci.org/about/about-oneness-pentecostalism


JLB
 
Amen.

God the Father is the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Jesus is the only Begotten Son, of God the Father.

But to the Son He says:“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
Hebrews 1:8


JLB
Well we agree that Jesus is and always was Gods Son and that the Son has all the fullness of God in Him and that the creation was made through Him. God in that context. We disagree on how that is so as Jesus calls the Father the One true God and His God and there is only one God and that Jesus is not the Father. So that means we also disagree on how Jesus and the Father are one. I could quote Jesus on how He and the Father are one but you would have to disagree to hold to orthodoxy faith statements.

Would you state that the Father has always been Jesus's God since you also believe Jesus has always been the Son? All the scripture OT and NT support that the Father is Jesus's God. The writer of Hebrews pointed that out. (Therefore God, your God...) When you say begotten when did that take place to "you"? The incarnation?


Randy
 
Yes, that's what I'm asking for... with scripture.

One misunderstanding, is the misunderstanding of the Trinity, by Oneness folks, who claim that Trinity belief is the belief in Three Gods, rather than One God.

This is addressed to Jim Parker. I'm happy to give him the honor of replying.

I'd just like to say that I'm pretty darn confused. What is this "Oneness" folks?
You call it the Oneness folks and then you pretty much go on to describe the Holy Trinity.
Trinitarians DO NOT believe in 3 different Gods. Doesn't that go against the 1st and most important commandment?

The Holy Trinity is not an easy concept which is why Jim Parker is saying he could only give his own personal interpretatin. However, it IS the accepted concept in traditinal Christianity. Now if you don't wish to believe it or understand it in some in some different way, that's your prerogative and will not lead to loss of your salvation, IMO. Salvation is not contingent on this type of differeing belief or we'd all be in a lot of trouble.

This is why it's not right to not accept a term such as The Holy Trinity just because it isn't in the bible. It's important to use terms which describe Christianity precisely to avoid confusion such as I notice in this thread.

If you speak of the Trinity I know exactly what you're speaking of (even though I may not understand it). If you start telling me Yahweh is Jesus, we get a little lost since each person has its own specific attributes.
However, you're right in saying that God Himself has come to save us (Ezekiel, Jeremiah) in the person of Jesus Christ. But it's not right to say that Yahweh is Jesus. See, it gets confusing once you go away from the CONCEPT of the Trinity which is stated in the bible but the word is not used.

What did Jesus mean when He said: Go and baptize in the name of The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit?

Do you see in that sentence somewhere that one was less than another, or that one was more than another?
No. They're all the same and they're all different and they're all one.

I am a mother
a sister
an aunt

but I'm one person. I retain one nature but am thought of as having 3 different roles.

Now, in your post no. 372, you quote from a source:

Oneness theology denies the Trinity and teaches that God is a single person who was "manifested as Father in creation and as the Father of the Son, in the Son for our redemption, and as the Holy Spirit in our regeneration."1 Another way of looking at it is that God revealed Himself as Father in the Old Testament and as the Son in Jesus during Christ’s ministry on earth and now as the Holy Spirit after Christ’s ascension.

The beautiful message of Scripture is that our Creator became our Savior. The God against whom we sinned is the One who forgives us. God loved us so much that He came in flesh to save us. He gave of Himself; He did not send someone else. Moreover, our Creator-Savior is also the indwelling Spirit who is ever-present to help us. God told us how to live and then came to live among us. He showed us how to live in the flesh and laid down His human life to purchase our salvation. Now He abides within us and enables us to live according to His will.

Jesus Christ is the one God incarnate, and in Him we have everything we need: healing, deliverance, victory, and salvation
(Colossians 2:9-10). By recognizing the almighty God in Jesus Christ, we restore correct biblical belief and experience apostolic power.

Okay. Could you explain the difference of the minute nuance as expressed above? I've asked you before but I'm unable to get a clear answer. Maybe it can't be clear because maybe there's no difference between what is highlighted above and the understanding of the Trinity.

Of course, you don't have to reply if you don't care to.

Wondering
 
I'd just like to say that I'm pretty darn confused. What is this "Oneness" folks?
You call it the Oneness folks and then you pretty much go on to describe the Holy Trinity.
Trinitarians DO NOT believe in 3 different Gods. Doesn't that go against the 1st and most important commandment?

This would be a good example of what I was telling Jim.

Pentecostal Oneness, believe: Oneness theology denies the Trinity and teaches that God is a single person who was "manifested as Father in creation and as the Father of the Son, in the Son for our redemption, and as the Holy Spirit in our regeneration."


JLB
 
What did Jesus mean when He said: Go and baptize in the name of The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit?

Do you see in that sentence somewhere that one was less than another, or that one was more than another?
No. They're all the same and they're all different and they're all one.

I am a mother
a sister
an aunt

but I'm one person. I retain one nature but am thought of as having 3 different roles.


When referring to yourself do you say, "us" or "we", or "our", or do you say "me".

Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; Genesis 1:26


JLB
 
Jesus=>It is the Father in me doing His work.

If you can't tell by now I put the most weight on what Jesus stated. I suggest you do the same.

Randy

Ok, here is another one.

[you seek a proof of Christ speaking in me... 2 Corinthians 13:3]

9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. Romans 8:9

The Spirit of Christ, is the same Spirit that spoke through the mouth of the old testament prophets as YHWH, the Lord God.

10 Of this salvation the prophets have inquired and searched carefully, who prophesied of the grace that would come to you, 11 searching what, or what manner of time, the Spirit of Christ who was in them was indicating when He testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow. 1 Peter 1:10-11

Example of the Spirit of Christ speaking through an old testament prophet, as YHWH the Lord God of Israel:

10 “And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Zechariah 12:10


JLB
 
Okay. Could you explain the difference of the minute nuance as expressed above? I've asked you before but I'm unable to get a clear answer. Maybe it can't be clear because maybe there's no difference between what is highlighted above and the understanding of the Trinity.

  • Oneness Belief: Oneness theology denies the Trinity and teaches that God is a single person who was "manifested as Father in creation and as the Father of the Son, in the Son for our redemption, and as the Holy Spirit in our regeneration."1 Another way of looking at it is that God revealed Himself as Father in the Old Testament and as the Son in Jesus during Christ’s ministry on earth and now as the Holy Spirit after Christ’s ascension.

  • Trinity Belief: The Trinity is one God existing in three Persons; three coexistent, co-eternal Persons who make up God.

I don't claim to speak for all Oneness or all Trinity folks, but only to try and answer your question with what is stated on the website of those who hold to those teachings.

Each individual person within those different camps, may have varied understandings of what is described above.


Here is what I believe: These Three are One.

For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one.
1 John 5:7


Oneness believes: This One is Three.

That would be the most elementary difference between the two different camps of Oneness and Trinity beliefs.


JLB

 
I've asked you before but I'm unable to get a clear answer.


Please answer this question for me, as I have tried to answer your questions.


If I took three separate glasses of pure water, and poured all three into a glass pitcher, would it be a pitcher of three waters, or a pitcher of water?

Is water a plural word or a singular word?



JLB
 
This would be a good example of what I was telling Jim.

Pentecostal Oneness, believe: Oneness theology denies the Trinity and teaches that God is a single person who was "manifested as Father in creation and as the Father of the Son, in the Son for our redemption, and as the Holy Spirit in our regeneration."


JLB
JLB,

I've always had a problem with learning about a religion online. Which is where you learned about this Oneness. How could we possibly really understand another's religion? Do you think those outside Christianity really understand us? Have you spoken to any atheists lately? They THINK they know Christianity, but really they make statements that show they don't.

I like to stick to speaking to the religion that I know. How I was taught it. I know the Trinity. The way you describe Oneness sounds like the Trinity to me - but then you say they deny it. So, yes, there's some nuance here that is not being addressed but I'll be checking out this Oneness idea.

GOD IS ONE DEITY manifested in three persons. But this is the Trinity. He is ONE God as in Deuteronomy 6:4. He is the Son. He is the Holy Ghost. When we speak of Jesus, we refer to God, the Son, become man. I like John 1. Jesus is the word of God. The spoken word and the thoughts of God. When Jesus leaves He sends the Holy Spirit - who is also God. John 14:26.

I reread your post no. 340 in which you refer to Titus 2:11-14.

verse 11 is clearly referring to Jesus. The grace of God has appeared, or has been seen. Now grace can also be seen spiritually but here it says that it brings salvation to all men. Jesus, dying on the cross, brings salvation to all men. 10 refers to God our Savior. God, the Father wills to save us. He Himself will save us - Isaiah 35:4 is one of many hard links, as you call them. I wonder if you mean prefiguring by this or something else. Jesus is prefigured and forshadowed in much of the O.T.

verse 13 is speaking of the Blessed Hope - the return of Jesus and the appearing (at the end times) of our Great God and Savior, Christ Jesus. This refers to our savior as being Jesus, the great God and Saviior. Verse 14 just further proves this.

Wondering
 
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